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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Feb 18, 2020 2:31:11 GMT
Why because white male rage? No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well. The beauty of the new Joker movie is that the Joker himself is a pretty unreliable narrator and you can't know for sure what part or if anything that happened at all is real, nothing is set in stone. In that respect the “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” makes perfect sense, to me anyway. The acting, cinematography and score were all extremely well done. Even if someone wanted to separate the Joker from the usual comic book movies, the message I got about trying to be a kinder human being to the outcast and putting yourself in someone else's shoes is not a terrible one. I also love how it didn't need mass amounts of CGI to make so much money, just a decent script and great acting. It deserved every Oscar it got, even though I don't think the Oscars matter all that much anyway. Did the Joker name help to sell tickets? most likely but positive praise and word of mouth also helps a lot, I doubt it would've been as successful if it were a shit movie.
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Post by Evil on Feb 18, 2020 2:52:01 GMT
No, because that wasn’t the Joker and goes against the character. For example, the Joker doesn’t have a backstory and to paraphrase his own words “If I have to have a history, I prefer it to be multiple choice.” They only made the movie be about the Joker because comic book movies sell well. I don't doubt for a second that the film title of "Joker" is just a cash in. Reminds me of three films Disney shat out recently to cash in on nostalgia. That aside, consider this: 1/ There's canonically a multiverse in both DC and marvel universes, with countless variants of the various heroes and villains. That makes that film, and all the others too for that matter, about *A* Joker not *THE* Joker, because there is no *THE* Joker.Earth 1 Joker? Earth 1337 Joker? Earth 97 Bajillion and 7 Joker? All equally canon. The whole multiverse thing makes a mockery of the concept of canon, and generally acts as an infinite get out of jail free card for bizarre crossovers, continuity errors, general mistakes, greed, and sheer incompetence. InB4 Disney multiverse the shit outta Star Wars to try and re-milk the cow. 2/ Joker is known for making shit up, including fictional backstories for himself, a la "the usual suspects". Its kinda his thing. Anything claiming to be his back story can be interpreted as just another one of his insane ramblings if you so chose. Of all the blatant cash ins they could have made, "Joker" is about as excusable as any cash in could hope to be. Still not gonna watch the fucking thing tho. A tolerable cash in is still a cash in.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 3:01:31 GMT
That's very generic and non-specific. Ok, so we are discussing Rose's take on Canto Bight, and you have claimed "even within the context of the main movies" this is blatantly one sided. This is good since we do not have to consider outside sources of information on where The First Order gets it's weaponry. Please do explain "the other side" of the argument I guess in favor(?) of supporting a lavish lifestyle by supplying both sides of a conflict with weapons, and using slavery/indentured labor. It was a summary. I'm getting tired of writing paragraph upon paragraph to answer your questions because you're too lazy to actually think about the movies. Nonetheless, here we go again: THE take on Canto Bight is one-sided because what goes on there is only "explained" by Rose, and all she does is state that everyone there has definitely gotten rich through arms dealing with the First Order, that they're definitely what's wrong with the galaxy, that they definitely profit from people's misery and that destroying the place would be justice . Enormously emotional and personal and sweeping sentiments with little to no evidence or underlying explanation backing any of them from what we and Finn can see, and no input or counterarguments at all from anyone involved to confirm or deny her very biased read of the situation. And before you suggest that "DJ" does that, he does not. What he does is merely indicate that the "good guys" are complicit in whatever dirt does occur, and that that's just how things are and nothing to get worked up over. He doesn't offer any confirmation of or counterpoints to Rose's arguments beyond confirming that arms dealing does occur, he just advises Finn not to get hung up on them. Rose's judgement of Canto Bight and the people there is left completely unopposed, along with the message that arms dealing is evil and rich people have innocent blood under their nails by default, and Finn swallows it whole and without question even though he only has her word for it. This spurs him to commit actions that no doubt cause horrific trouble for those poor slaves and endanger hundreds of people he has no reason to suspect of anything untoward, all of which is portrayed as catharsis for the residents' supposed misdeeds because the plot is entirely invested in making arms dealers evil and destroying their toys good, with no interest in the logic of it. The child slavery is just an illogical contrivance that the plot manifests in order to make aforementioned rich people seem extra evil and Rose's viewpoint that much stronger without actually providing it any substance. It has nothing to do with the arms dealing, and it makes no sense in a world where droid labor would be cheaper, neater and more reliable. It is only there to help her make her point. The way she addresses it doesn't even make sense, promising them the protection of the Resistance when the government the Resistance represents has been in power for 30 years up to yesterday and did nothing to lift them out of their circumstances. *deep breath* That's why the messages relating to Canto Bight in particular are one-sided. None of the arguments that could easily be made against her view of the whole thing ever are. Instead she alone dictates what it is and what it means in one big and so far as we know uninformed emotional response.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 3:04:35 GMT
Granted But A. Politics have always been apart of Star Wars from episode 4 where you had a scrappy group of vaguely American like Rebels against a fascist empire with obvious Nazi overtones. B. The messaging was so obvious and blatant in TLJ...that I completely missed it even though I'm sensitive to that stuff given I breathe politics. C. The messaging was so obvious FROM THE trailer for the Joker that my interest in seeing the movie is almost nill. A. "American like rebels"? Please explain that to me. Not being American, I might have missed something. And the Empire is fascist because fascism is evil, and the story is obviously about good vs evil. It's not supposed to be a commentary on fascism the way TLJ suddenly tries to be a commentary on capitalism, weapons manufacture, animal cruelty and ""heroes"" who apparently think with their dicks by default. B. What that sounds like to me is that you've become desensitized to social justice politics without realizing it, not that TLJ is subtle. Because it isn't. Then again, we've kind of discovered that you haven't devoted a lot of energy to critical thinking while watching that particular movie. C. Again, the Joker is specifically about those things. And if you haven't seen it then I don't see how you think you can compare it and TLJ's approaches to anything. I wasn't wild to see it either based on those trailers, but went with someone else and was thoroughly engrossed, and found the chain of events it posited relatable and essentially true to real life. A. Admittedly this is a take I heard once so not entirely sure of its validity but the point is largely the same as yours. B. While I would never make any claims or suppositions on how much you critically exam the Last Jedi I can assure you I have spent an inordinate amount of time examining and creatively thinking about the messages of the movie and what it means both in general and to me. I mean the amount of time I ave spent over the last two weeks or so discussing it in this very thread should put the lie to that ...but again since I disagree with your take I don't think at all. Anyways I find TLJ to be probably the most philosophically deep movie since Empire, its messages really spoke to me on a level and it elevated Star Wars beyond "Really Great Popcorn entertainment" to really great entertainment. Its the kind of stuff that I have been hoping Star Wars would discuss...in the movies since the books, games, and TV shows all have gone into their own philosophical tangents...for a very long time. And how it examined and picked apart the Star Wars mythos and examined its legacy...in Universe...was amazing. Now I can't quantify how much time you have spent thinking about it on any sort of levels since the two main messages you have gotten from it seems to be 'captalism is evil' and 'girl power' is probably indicitive of the answer to that question. C. ...Well after double checking the synposis I am glad because I made a few assumptions but its actually worse then I thought. Anyways the 'true to life' part is the sad and troubling part. I mean one of the reasons why I don't want to watch it all I have to do is turn on the nightly news to see that kind of stuff. I mean here you have a situation, that while tragic in its own right, is being used as an excuse to start a crime spree and apparently inspire a whole movement to rise up and riot against 'rich businessmen'. Certainly sounds familiar to a lot of the stuff that is going on today right now throughout global politics. Also sounds similar to a certain plot point that is complained about in another movie...And its something that I would not want to emulate... Which is why I find it rather alarming that so many people, regardless of their political affiliation, seems so enamored with this story and its particular 'hero'. Fortunatley while the Joker's messages seem strictly time locked to 2019 Americanna so it'll probably be forgotten about in the due fullness of time the messages of the Last Jedi are timeless. Dealing with failure, the consequences and guilt there of, issues of identity, and the consequences of being stuck in a cycle of violence that has been going on for decades on a Galactic level. The only joke is you for the last few pages denying that TLJ didn't have woke political messaging in it's narrative. The politics in TLJ was poorly implemented and resulted in the flanderization of Poe's, Finn's characters at the expense of Johnson telling his broken Aesops. The Prequel trilogy had overt political anti war and capitalist messaging too (Trade Federation, Iraq invasion false flag conspiracy = Palpatine's gambit, Dooku a noble representing the Capitalist Alliance) but was better conveyed by George Lucas who maintained consistency with the setting, and kept it relevant to the overarching plot. You should probably try to explain what is so broken about the political messaging in TLJ. So far all I've heard is Rose can't complain about war profiteering and slavery (or indentured labor) supporting Canto Bight's lavish lifestyle, because some external source says the First Order doesn't buy weapons outside their own inhouse manufacturers. As an argument against the messaging it doesn't make sense because it's a lore argument against a supposedly woke political message. As far as the political message itself goes, I don't know what's so politically controversial about not wanting war profiteering or slavery to support a lavish lifestyle. Additionally, Finn doesn't pick a side in TFA, he's just trying to help Rey. In TLJ he eventually picks a side, so I don't know why his arc is a cut and paste. Even if one assumed he picked a side in TFA, why would anything be settled in his character in the three or four days of TFA (where he is suddenly not a Storm Trooper) that couldn't be reopened in TLJ for further examination? An apt observation. Its a really weird take equating capitalism with slavery and war profiteering from people who are supposedly pro Capitalist. (I mean that is the general assumption given the amount of negativeity this movie is recieving from its supposedly 'anti capatilist messages.') Then again I could see the argument being advanced if you (falsely) equate capitalism to all business efforts then the Canto Bight stuff could be seen as anti capitalist...but since there is a lot more to it then that and since I do not its not anti capitalist to me.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2020 3:16:57 GMT
The only joke is you for the last few pages denying that TLJ didn't have woke political messaging in it's narrative. The politics in TLJ was poorly implemented and resulted in the flanderization of Poe's, Finn's characters at the expense of Johnson telling his broken Aesops. The Prequel trilogy had overt political anti war and capitalist messaging too (Trade Federation, Iraq invasion false flag conspiracy = Palpatine's gambit, Dooku a noble representing the Capitalist Alliance) but was better conveyed by George Lucas who maintained consistency with the setting, and kept it relevant to the overarching plot. You should probably try to explain what is so broken about the political messaging in TLJ. So far all I've heard is Rose can't complain about war profiteering and slavery (or indentured labor) supporting Canto Bight's lavish lifestyle, because some external source says the First Order doesn't buy weapons outside their own inhouse manufacturers. As an argument against the messaging it doesn't make sense because it's a lore argument against a supposedly woke political message. As far as the political message itself goes, I don't know what's so politically controversial about not wanting war profiteering or slavery to support a lavish lifestyle. Additionally, Finn doesn't pick a side in TFA, he's just trying to help Rey. In TLJ he eventually picks a side, so I don't know why his arc is a cut and paste. Even if one assumed he picked a side in TFA, why would anything be settled in his character in the three or four days of TFA (where he is suddenly not a Storm Trooper) that couldn't be reopened in TLJ for further examination? Nico's rant about the evils of capitalism fully ignores that for 50 years the Rebellion and the Resistance primarily benefitted from dealing with arms dealers who were also at risk for their dealings, and who's designation as War Profiteers is unfounded slander born from Nico's narrow world view, nevermind the absurdity of her telling a literal newly escaped slave about the evils of slavery. The giraffe hyenas animals being the focal point of Rose's rant on oppression while the slave kids went ignored was puzzling. Then there's Finn, and Poe being written as incompetent oafs with the latter being turned into a misandrist, which flies in the face of his portrayal in TFA, so that their female compatriots can educate them about their tacked on hamfisted flaws. A faux anti capitalist rant written by a corporate story group to give an inconsequential segment of the film a veneer of depth in order to justify the padding out of the film's runtime, and the dumbing down of the male leads so that the female leads can have their Yaas Queen moments isn't hard to miss. TL;DR TLJ is a shit film on multiple levels and Rian Johnson should just stick to race baiting.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2020 3:35:49 GMT
That they're completely and blatantly one-sided, for one. That the plot ruthlessly bends and twists the established rules of the much beloved setting to make their cases, for another. That they specifically rely on the audience not thinking about what they're seeing on-screen and instead just listening to the creator mouthpieces verbally spelling the morals out instead for a third. That setting them up ate up time and budget that was sorely needed to sufficiently develop characters new and old for a fourth. That they say nothing even remotely insightful or meaningful about either the characters, the world or our reality for a fifth. That's very generic and non-specific. Ok, so we are discussing Rose's take on Canto Bight, and you have claimed "even within the context of the main movies" this is blatantly one sided. This is good since we do not have to consider outside sources of information on where The First Order gets it's weaponry. Please do explain "the other side" of the argument I guess in favor(?) of supporting a lavish lifestyle by supplying both sides of a conflict with weapons, and using slavery/indentured labor. It was a summary. I'm getting tired of writing paragraph upon paragraph to answer your questions because you're too lazy to actually think about the movies. Nonetheless, here we go again: THE take on Canto Bight is one-sided because what goes on there is only "explained" by Rose, and all she does is state that everyone there has definitely gotten rich through arms dealing with the First Order, that they're definitely what's wrong with the galaxy, that they definitely profit from people's misery and that destroying the place would be justice . Enormously emotional and personal and sweeping sentiments with little to no evidence or underlying explanation backing any of them from what we and Finn can see, and no input or counterarguments at all from anyone involved to confirm or deny her very biased read of the situation. And before you suggest that "DJ" does that, he does not. What he does is merely indicate that the "good guys" are complicit in whatever dirt does occur, and that that's just how things are and nothing to get worked up over. He doesn't offer any confirmation of or counterpoints to Rose's arguments beyond confirming that arms dealing does occur, he just advises Finn not to get hung up on them. Rose's judgement of Canto Bight and the people there is left completely unopposed, along with the message that arms dealing is evil and rich people have innocent blood under their nails by default, and Finn swallows it whole and without question even though he only has her word for it. This spurs him to commit actions that no doubt cause horrific trouble for those poor slaves and endanger hundreds of people he has no reason to suspect of anything untoward, all of which is portrayed as catharsis for the residents' supposed misdeeds because the plot is entirely invested in making arms dealers evil and destroying their toys good, with no interest in the logic of it. The child slavery is just an illogical contrivance that the plot manifests in order to make aforementioned rich people seem extra evil and Rose's viewpoint that much stronger without actually providing it any substance. It has nothing to do with the arms dealing, and it makes no sense in a world where droid labor would be cheaper, neater and more reliable. It is only there to help her make her point. The way she addresses it doesn't even make sense, promising them the protection of the Resistance when the government the Resistance represents has been in power for 30 years up to yesterday and did nothing to lift them out of their circumstances. *deep breath* That's why the messages relating to Canto Bight in particular are one-sided. None of the arguments that could easily be made against her view of the whole thing ever are. Rian Johnson let his Original Creation serve as the mouthpiece for his worldview on Capitalism at the expense of the setting's lore, and a coherent narrative. It was juvenile and i can't blame people for thinking that half of the film was a parody.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 3:37:36 GMT
A. Admittedly this is a take I heard once so not entirely sure of its validity but the point is largely the same as yours. B. While I would never make any claims or suppositions on how much you critically exam the Last Jedi I can assure you I have spent an inordinate amount of time examining and creatively thinking about the messages of the movie and what it means both in general and to me. I mean the amount of time I ave spent over the last two weeks or so discussing it in this very thread should put the lie to that ...but again since I disagree with your take I don't think at all. Anyways I find TLJ to be probably the most philosophically deep movie since Empire, its messages really spoke to me on a level and it elevated Star Wars beyond "Really Great Popcorn entertainment" to really great entertainment. Its the kind of stuff that I have been hoping Star Wars would discuss...in the movies since the books, games, and TV shows all have gone into their own philosophical tangents...for a very long time. And how it examined and picked apart the Star Wars mythos and examined its legacy...in Universe...was amazing. Now I can't quantify how much time you have spent thinking about it on any sort of levels since the two main messages you have gotten from it seems to be 'captalism is evil' and 'girl power' is probably indicitive of the answer to that question. C. ...Well after double checking the synposis I am glad because I made a few assumptions but its actually worse then I thought. Anyways the 'true to life' part is the sad and troubling part. I mean one of the reasons why I don't want to watch it all I have to do is turn on the nightly news to see that kind of stuff. I mean here you have a situation, that while tragic in its own right, is being used as an excuse to start a crime spree and apparently inspire a whole movement to rise up and riot against 'rich businessmen'. Certainly sounds familiar to a lot of the stuff that is going on today right now throughout global politics. Also sounds similar to a certain plot point that is complained about in another movie...And its something that I would not want to emulate... Which is why I find it rather alarming that so many people, regardless of their political affiliation, seems so enamored with this story and its particular 'hero'. Fortunatley while the Joker's messages seem strictly time locked to 2019 Americanna so it'll probably be forgotten about in the due fullness of time the messages of the Last Jedi are timeless. Dealing with failure, the consequences and guilt there of, issues of identity, and the consequences of being stuck in a cycle of violence that has been going on for decades on a Galactic level. Well, in that case you've apparently spent so much time fantasizing about what you want TLJ to mean that it has interfered with you actually observing what happens in the movie, because I've lost count of all the ways you've misremembered events or tried to recontextualize things to suit your views about it while claiming to have seen it over and over compared to me. Call me crazy, but I believe that being able to remember what actually happens in a movie is rather necessary to being able to claim to have understood it on some deeper level. But maybe that's just me and my silly ways. Excuse me, "double checking the synopsis"? Stop whining and messing around and watch the damn movie if you're going to try to criticize it. Unlike TLJ, the Joker does the furthest thing from urging anyone to emulate its protagonist's destructive and antisocial response to complicated societal issues. And "strictly time locked to 2019 America?" It's set in the 80's, the movie's chain of events are set in motion by Reagan's cuts to health-care spending and the riots are based on actual ones that have been happening ever since. I have family members who have taken medicine their entire lives who bawled their eyes out when watching it, and we sure as hell aren't Americans. In contrast, TLJ is a pretty movie with shoddy writing whose visuals are going to age and whose plots and messages and characters are going to be ridiculed for decades, and which is going to be derided forever as the one that killed the sequel trilogy dead in its tracks. And your assumptions about other people's political leanings don't help your case. I'm certainly not "pro-capitalist". Just anti-shitty writing.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 3:48:33 GMT
A. Admittedly this is a take I heard once so not entirely sure of its validity but the point is largely the same as yours. B. While I would never make any claims or suppositions on how much you critically exam the Last Jedi I can assure you I have spent an inordinate amount of time examining and creatively thinking about the messages of the movie and what it means both in general and to me. I mean the amount of time I ave spent over the last two weeks or so discussing it in this very thread should put the lie to that ...but again since I disagree with your take I don't think at all. Anyways I find TLJ to be probably the most philosophically deep movie since Empire, its messages really spoke to me on a level and it elevated Star Wars beyond "Really Great Popcorn entertainment" to really great entertainment. Its the kind of stuff that I have been hoping Star Wars would discuss...in the movies since the books, games, and TV shows all have gone into their own philosophical tangents...for a very long time. And how it examined and picked apart the Star Wars mythos and examined its legacy...in Universe...was amazing. Now I can't quantify how much time you have spent thinking about it on any sort of levels since the two main messages you have gotten from it seems to be 'captalism is evil' and 'girl power' is probably indicitive of the answer to that question. C. ...Well after double checking the synposis I am glad because I made a few assumptions but its actually worse then I thought. Anyways the 'true to life' part is the sad and troubling part. I mean one of the reasons why I don't want to watch it all I have to do is turn on the nightly news to see that kind of stuff. I mean here you have a situation, that while tragic in its own right, is being used as an excuse to start a crime spree and apparently inspire a whole movement to rise up and riot against 'rich businessmen'. Certainly sounds familiar to a lot of the stuff that is going on today right now throughout global politics. Also sounds similar to a certain plot point that is complained about in another movie...And its something that I would not want to emulate... Which is why I find it rather alarming that so many people, regardless of their political affiliation, seems so enamored with this story and its particular 'hero'. Fortunatley while the Joker's messages seem strictly time locked to 2019 Americanna so it'll probably be forgotten about in the due fullness of time the messages of the Last Jedi are timeless. Dealing with failure, the consequences and guilt there of, issues of identity, and the consequences of being stuck in a cycle of violence that has been going on for decades on a Galactic level. Well, in that case you've apparently spent so much time fantasizing about what you want TLJ to mean that it has interfered with you actually observing what happens in the movie, because I've lost count of all the ways you've misremembered events or tried to recontextualize things to suit your views about it while claiming to have seen it over and over compared to me. Call me crazy, but I believe that being able to remember what actually happens in a movie is rather necessary to being able to claim to have understood it on some deeper level. But maybe that's just me and my silly ways. Excuse me, "double checking the synopsis"? Stop whining and messing around and watch the damn movie if you're going to try to criticize it. Unlike TLJ, the Joker does the furthest thing from urging anyone to emulate its protagonist's destructive and antisocial response to complicated societal issues. And "strictly time locked to 2019 America?" It's set in the 80's, the movie's chain of events are set in motion by Reagan's cuts to health-care spending and the riots are based on actual ones that have been happening ever since. I have family members who have taken medicine their entire lives who bawled their eyes out when watching it, and we sure as hell aren't Americans. In contrast, TLJ is a pretty movie with shoddy writing whose visuals are going to age and whose plots and messages and characters are going to be ridiculed for decades and which is going to be derided as the one that killed the sequel trilogy. And your assumptions about other people's political leanings don't help your case. I'm certainly not "pro-capitalist". Just anti-nonsensical writing. I'm not nor have I criticized the Joker. I am just saying its message is not something I want to watch and I think is borderline dangerous given what is going on in the world right now. I haven't watched the movie so I cannot comment on its acting, story structure, lighting, music, or anything else...but I am concerned with its overall messages given what it is promoting, and I know those messages aren't for me. You know I could apply the same thing easily to you and your logic. Again I see nothing to support your case in the multiple times I've watched Episode 8 and you have done little, in this case, to advance your argument other then vague insults. How can a movie be anti capitalist when capitalism is not the economic system portrayed on Canto Bight? Its a key question no one seems willing to answer. A lot of modern day politicans and political activists view today as a retread of the 80s...they are wrong...but it wouldn't be the first time that someone tried to use a historical setting as social commentary for what is happening today. It happens all the time. Just like some people try and use the future or a Galaxy Far Far Away as social commentary to... Fair enough...but I kind of already covered my bases with that. I mean I don't know your politics but then it is doubly curious that you would try and project your economic views onto the situation in TLJ...and might be why you are mistake about its messages.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 3:55:49 GMT
Basically it all boils down to this: If you are a capitalist and calling the situation on Canto Bight Anti Capitalism...which involved war profiteering and child slavery then you have a really odd equation between the two and what capitalism is. If you are anti Capitalist and calling Canto Bight Anti Capitalism you probably are assigning your own biases on what you view as capitalism to the actual work itself.
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 18, 2020 3:56:25 GMT
Yes, it's true. I really don't watch Star Wars movies with an eye to analyzing the politics of them, nor do I expect a back and forth about lifestyles, when a one sentence explanation would suffice - but that's just me. ... Enormously emotional and personal and sweeping sentiments with little to no evidence or underlying explanation backing any of them from what we and Finn can see, and no input or counterarguments at all from anyone involved to confirm or deny her very biased read of the situation. ... Rose's judgement of Canto Bight and the people there is left completely unopposed, along with the message that arms dealing is evil and rich people have innocent blood under their nails by default, and Finn swallows it whole and without question even though he only has her word for it. ... Well, first, you didn't have to write so many paragraphs because these here are your main points with respect to the Canto Bight message. Second, I believe Rose's position was that arms dealing to the First Order was evil, since obviously the Resistance needs weapons. Only later does DJ reveal that these arms dealers also deal to the Resistance. Her deduction that Canto Bight must be built on arms dealing to the First Order is questionable, only supported by the design of some of the search skiffs. I'm not sure what you were expecting here from a Star Wars movie (other than NO conversation on source of income, or judgement of civilians), and it seems most people who don't like the sequence found it too long anyway, so I don't think a back and forth of ideas to extend it would have helped. Your implication is that Rose is not a reliable source of this information, so would a more reliable source of this same information resolve this issue like, say, a computer readout on the area's source of income before they arrive? Somehow I doubt it. Personally, I like Rose fine so I don't have a problem with her being the source of this information. I don't know what her whole life story is, but if there was some argument against Canto Bight being funded by the First Order, the movie would have probably brought it up. I do not believe that the subtext here is that "rich people have innocent blood under their nails" since, Leia is a princess and rich, or was at some point. ... This spurs him to commit actions that no doubt cause horrific trouble for those poor slaves and endanger hundreds of people he has no reason to suspect of anything untoward ... The stampede is really quite bad, regardless of the politics behind it. I have similar issues with Jurassic Park 3 and Jurassic World 2. I'm not sure why the "message" of Canto Bight even comes up while criticising this. ... The child slavery is just an illogical contrivance that the plot manifests in order to make aforementioned rich people seem extra evil and Rose's viewpoint that much stronger without actually providing it any substance. It has nothing to do with the arms dealing, and it makes no sense in a world where droid labor would be cheaper, neater and more reliable.... A frequent problem with your arguments is that you claim to know more than is depicted on the screen, and so assert "no sense", rather than adding the information presented on the screen to the lore of the setting. I would say that since there is child labor at Canto Bight, then droid labor, at least in this specific instance, is clearly not "cheaper, neater and more reliable."
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 4:08:30 GMT
And for the record its possible that Rian was making an AC message in his movie and he thought that he was really going to stick it to those greedy corporate overlords...but then if that is the case he really needs to open an economics textbook. So yeah I enjoyed it because its no way an Anti AC message even if the author wanted to make one...similar thing happened with Andrew Ryan and Bioshock.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 4:12:15 GMT
I'm not nor have I criticized the Joker. I am just saying its message is not something I want to watch and I think is borderline dangerous given what is going on in the world right now. I haven't watched the movie so I cannot comment on its acting, story structure, lighting, music, or anything else...but I am concerned with its overall messages given what it is promoting, and I know those messages aren't for me. You know I could apply the same thing easily to you and your logic. Again I see nothing to support your case in the multiple times I've watched Episode 8 and you have done little, in this case, to advance your argument other then vague insults. How can a movie be anti capitalist when capitalism is not the economic system portrayed on Canto Bight? Its a key question no one seems willing to answer. A lot of modern day politicans and political activists view today as a retread of the 80s...they are wrong...but it wouldn't be the first time that someone tried to use a historical setting as social commentary for what is happening today. It happens all the time. Just like some people try and use the future or a Galaxy Far Far Away as social commentary to... Fair enough...but I kind of already covered my bases with that. I mean I don't know your politics but then it is doubly curious that you would try and project your economic views onto the situation in TLJ...and might be why you are mistake about its messages. If you haven't seen the movie then you don't know its message, and have no place trying to argue that it might be dangerous or promotional of anything at all. Except I've spent the last seven or eight pages of this thread pointing out flaws in your theories and notions about the movies, and you've backed out without being able to support your ideas again and again and again. At this point I'm convinced that the only thing you like about, and the only thing you actually see when you watch that movie, is your own wishful thinking. Your unfounded worries about a movie you haven't seen don't concern me. And I don't have any particular economic views to project. I just point out bullshit that doesn't make sense, isn't consistent with the setting it manifests in and doesn't add to the work that features it. Don't talk to me about being mistaken about messages while refusing to watch a movie in terror of what someone else has told you its message is. Yes, it's true. I really don't watch Star Wars movies with an eye to analyzing the politics of them, nor do I expect a back and forth about lifestyles, when a one sentence explanation would suffice - but that's just me. I believe Rose's position was that arms dealing to the First Order was evil, since obviously the Resistance needs weapons. Only later does DJ reveal that these arms dealers also deal to the Resistance. Her deduction that Canto Bight must be built on arms dealing to the First Order is questionable, only supported by the design of some of the search skiffs. I'm not sure what you were expecting here from a Star Wars movie (other than NO conversation on source of income, or judgement of civilians), and it seems most people who don't like the sequence found it too long anyway, so I don't think a back and forth of ideas to extend it would have helped. I do not believe that the subtext here is that "rich people have innocent blood under their nails" since, Leia is a princess and rich, or was at some point. The stampede is really quite bad, regardless of the politics behind it. I have similar issues with Jurassic Park 3 and Jurassic World 2. I'm not sure why the "message" of Canto Bight even comes up while criticising this. A frequent problem with your arguments is that you claim to know more than is depicted on the screen, and so assert "no sense", rather than adding the information presented on the screen to the lore of the setting. I would say that since there is child labor at Canto Bight, then droid labor, at least in this specific instance, is clearly not "cheaper, neater and more reliable." That's funny, I don't either. But if the writer throws something that doesn't make sense in then I expect them to do the legwork to make it make sense. And if they don't then that's shitty writing, which is what I call it. It's equally funny that you posit the writer's dilemma as either too much exposition on Canto Bight or only just enough exposition to direct the story. Here's an alternative: Cut out the weird nonsensical anti-corporate bullshit animal welfare part of the movie that turns out not to matter anyway and spend that time fleshing Rey, Kylo, Luke and Poe's situations out so they make more sense instead. You know, as a responsible writer would. Rose and Finn have a shared "the only way someone gets this rich is from war" exchange. The movie's message about rich people being complicit in violence is explicit. You recognizing that the stampede is problematic doesn't change anything. The movie portrays it as cathartic, as do our main characters. There's no ambivalence, Rian Johnson wants you to feel that it's fun and justified. That's the message the movie is sending, which is why it's relevant to the movie's messages. Simple as that. No, a frequent problem with your arguments is that you're willing to bail the writer out by giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there are logical reasons for every decision they make that they just don't feel like telling you, or which you just personally feel like making up on the spot. You're the movie director's answer to a cheap date. You just take everything you're offered and don't hold yourself or him to any standard at all.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 4:38:50 GMT
I'm not nor have I criticized the Joker. I am just saying its message is not something I want to watch and I think is borderline dangerous given what is going on in the world right now. I haven't watched the movie so I cannot comment on its acting, story structure, lighting, music, or anything else...but I am concerned with its overall messages given what it is promoting, and I know those messages aren't for me. You know I could apply the same thing easily to you and your logic. Again I see nothing to support your case in the multiple times I've watched Episode 8 and you have done little, in this case, to advance your argument other then vague insults. How can a movie be anti capitalist when capitalism is not the economic system portrayed on Canto Bight? Its a key question no one seems willing to answer. A lot of modern day politicans and political activists view today as a retread of the 80s...they are wrong...but it wouldn't be the first time that someone tried to use a historical setting as social commentary for what is happening today. It happens all the time. Just like some people try and use the future or a Galaxy Far Far Away as social commentary to... Fair enough...but I kind of already covered my bases with that. I mean I don't know your politics but then it is doubly curious that you would try and project your economic views onto the situation in TLJ...and might be why you are mistake about its messages. If you haven't seen the movie then you don't know its message, and have no place trying to argue that it might be dangerous or promotional of anything at all. Except I've spent the last seven or eight pages of this thread pointing out flaws in your theories and notions about the movies, and you've backed out without being able to support your ideas again and again and again. At this point I'm convinced that the only thing you like about, and the only thing you actually see when you watch that movie is your own wishful thinking. Your unfounded worries about a movie you haven't seen don't concern me. And I don't have any particular economic views to project. I just point out bullshit that doesn't make sense, isn't consistent with the setting it manifests in and doesn't add to the work that features it. Don't talk to me about being mistaken about messages while refusing to watch a movie in terror of what someone else has told you its message is. Do you really want these conversations to go on forever? I sure don't. There comes a point that I realize that we just have to agree to disagree shake hands and move on. Doesen't mean I am backing out of the argument without being able to support my ideas. On the contrary I have gone to enormous (some might argue insane) lengths on each of these topics we have discussed, where I disagree with you, where I agree with you, where you have caused me to think of things in a new light, and the evidence and reasons I have for believing what I believe in whatever the case. But since you disagree with my logic my opinions are just plain invalid, or worse just doesen't exisist at all and I'm delusional (or lying) This is especially true when it devolves into actually insulting the other one, something that I try and avoid doing...as I am sure you do...but when these arguments go on too long and the takes get too hot...frustration seeps in and again its better to bow out rather then say something we'll just regret. Edit: Like my line about you just insulting me, while there is a fair bit of that going around it is a vast overgeneralization of your positions and your mountains of paragraphs...and for that I apologize.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 4:58:49 GMT
Do you really want these conversations to go on forever? I sure don't. There comes a point that I realize that we just have to agree to disagree shake hands and move on. Doesen't mean I am backing out of the argument without being able to support my ideas. On the contrary I have gone to enormous (some might argue insane) lengths on each of these topics we have discussed, where I disagree with you, where I agree with you, where you have caused me to think of things in a new light, and the evidence and reasons I have for believing what I believe in whatever the case. But since you disagree with my logic my opinions are just plain invalid, or worse just doesen't exisist at all and I'm delusional (or lying) This is especially true when it devolves into actually insulting the other one, something that I try and avoid doing...as I am sure you do...but when these arguments go on too long and the takes get too hot...frustration seeps in and again its better to bow out rather then say something we'll just regret. It kinda does, yes. If we're arguing a point and you stop being able to defend your view and cede it then that's you backing out. If you had a genuine and convincing argument to use then you would obviously use it. And your ideas aren't necessarily invalid as long as you've actually watched the movie and scene we're discussing. But I do find it hard to take seriously that you can spend three days getting your interpretation shot unfailingly full of holes and then still with perfect certainty say that it's a timeless masterpiece that others just aren't appreciating properly. That does lead me to believe that what you enjoy about the movie comes from you, not it. You're right, though. I was about to go to bed when you guys started posting like crazy a few hours ago. I won't deny that that has affected my tone, and sorry about that. Goodnight, then.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 18, 2020 5:11:20 GMT
Do you really want these conversations to go on forever? I sure don't. There comes a point that I realize that we just have to agree to disagree shake hands and move on. Doesen't mean I am backing out of the argument without being able to support my ideas. On the contrary I have gone to enormous (some might argue insane) lengths on each of these topics we have discussed, where I disagree with you, where I agree with you, where you have caused me to think of things in a new light, and the evidence and reasons I have for believing what I believe in whatever the case. But since you disagree with my logic my opinions are just plain invalid, or worse just doesen't exisist at all and I'm delusional (or lying) This is especially true when it devolves into actually insulting the other one, something that I try and avoid doing...as I am sure you do...but when these arguments go on too long and the takes get too hot...frustration seeps in and again its better to bow out rather then say something we'll just regret. It kinda does, yes. If we're arguing a point and you stop being able to defend your view and cede it then that's you backing out. If you had a genuine and convincing argument to use then you would obviously use it. Not really. If you try explaining to a Flat Earther why the Earth is round and they keep ignoring your argument, you no longer arguing with them doesn't mean the Earth is flat since you aren't providing more arguments.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 5:15:03 GMT
It kinda does, yes. If we're arguing a point and you stop being able to defend your view and cede it then that's you backing out. If you had a genuine and convincing argument to use then you would obviously use it. Not really. If you try explaining to a Flat Earther why the Earth is round and they keep ignoring your argument, you no longer arguing with them doesn't mean the Earth is flat since you aren't providing more arguments. I hope I'm not the flat earther here Hanako
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 18, 2020 5:17:04 GMT
Not really. If you try explaining to a Flat Earther why the Earth is round and they keep ignoring your argument, you no longer arguing with them doesn't mean the Earth is flat since you aren't providing more arguments. I hope I'm not the flat earther here Hanako Neither of you were. I was just showing that dropping out of a discussion doesn't mean the person dropping it is conceding to the other.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 5:36:42 GMT
Rewatching the Clone Wars right now and boy can this show be really hit and miss sometimes. *winces*
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 18, 2020 5:51:20 GMT
Rewatching the Clone Wars right now and boy can this show be really hit and miss sometimes. *winces* What part are you on?
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 18, 2020 5:58:07 GMT
... Yes, it's true. I really don't watch Star Wars movies with an eye to analyzing the politics of them, nor do I expect a back and forth about lifestyles, when a one sentence explanation would suffice - but that's just me. I believe Rose's position was that arms dealing to the First Order was evil, since obviously the Resistance needs weapons. Only later does DJ reveal that these arms dealers also deal to the Resistance. Her deduction that Canto Bight must be built on arms dealing to the First Order is questionable, only supported by the design of some of the search skiffs. I'm not sure what you were expecting here from a Star Wars movie (other than NO conversation on source of income, or judgement of civilians), and it seems most people who don't like the sequence found it too long anyway, so I don't think a back and forth of ideas to extend it would have helped. I do not believe that the subtext here is that "rich people have innocent blood under their nails" since, Leia is a princess and rich, or was at some point. The stampede is really quite bad, regardless of the politics behind it. I have similar issues with Jurassic Park 3 and Jurassic World 2. I'm not sure why the "message" of Canto Bight even comes up while criticising this. A frequent problem with your arguments is that you claim to know more than is depicted on the screen, and so assert "no sense", rather than adding the information presented on the screen to the lore of the setting. I would say that since there is child labor at Canto Bight, then droid labor, at least in this specific instance, is clearly not "cheaper, neater and more reliable." That's funny, I don't either. But if the writer throws something that doesn't make sense in then I expect them to do the legwork to make it make sense. And if they don't then that's shitty writing, which is what I call it. It's equally funny that you posit the writer's dilemma as either too much exposition on Canto Bight or only just enough exposition to direct the story. Here's an alternative: Cut out the weird nonsensical anti-corporate bullshit animal welfare part of the movie that turns out not to matter anyway and spend that time fleshing Rey, Kylo, Luke and Poe's situations out so they make more sense instead. You know, as a responsible writer would. Rose and Finn have a shared "the only way someone gets this rich is from war" exchange. The movie's message about rich people being complicit in violence is explicit. You recognizing that the stampede is problematic doesn't change anything. The movie portrays it as cathartic, as do our main characters. There's no ambivalence, Rian Johnson wants you to feel that it's fun and justified. That's the message the movie is sending, which is why it's relevant to the movie's messages. Simple as that. ... Listen to yourself - "shitty" this, "nonsensical" that - and for what? A plot inconsistency, that even if resolved, would still support a message you don't like and would complain about anyway. War profiteering, people making vast amounts of money from ongoing conflicts, worker abuse, and animal abuse are things in the real world, so I have no issues with them being depicted in a Star Wars movie, and have no requirement they be given an in-depth study here. Rose starts out by saying on the ship that Canto Bight is filled with the worst kinds of people, and she has heard stories about them. You are also conveniently forgetting the line right after the quote you gave, where Rose continues, "Selling weapons to the First Order." The movie's criticism is not about "rich people", its about THESE rich people. What it changes is: I doubt anyone actually thinks it is a good idea to run a stampede through a city, so as far a movie messages go it is one only heard by people who WANT something to criticize. Knock yourself out. I'll just point out that if the stampede wasn't in there, you'd still be complaining about the Canto Bight message. ... No, a frequent problem with your arguments is that you're willing to bail the writer out by giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there are logical reasons for every decision they make that they just don't feel like telling you, or which you just personally feel like making up on the spot. You're the movie director's answer to a cheap date. You just take everything you're offered and don't hold yourself or him to any standard at all. Why would I demand a writer fill in the blanks for something obvious? It is ridiculous way of viewing movies. I leave that type of criticism to those to use as a foil to push their own agendas. "The movie is inconsistent!" "What if we fixed the inconsistency?" "I STILL WOULDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE!!!"
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 6:01:29 GMT
Rewatching the Clone Wars right now and boy can this show be really hit and miss sometimes. *winces* What part are you on? Just finished 'Shadow Warrior' the one with the Gungan who is interestingly named after a 17th Century French aristocrat who is making problems for the Republic on Naboo, Grevious is captured, Anakin is captured, fun times are had by all. I *think* I am on one of the arcs I hated the most in the entire show (The one with Aretoos and 3POs little side mission) and looking through season 4 I am not really looking forward to it especially after a really good season 3. Of course up next is the AMAZING Krell arc and then later you have the bounty hunters actually being interesting with the Obi-Wan/ Rocko Hardeen stuff. The trouble is I do not remember much of the show after that...aside from the arc with Fives and Order 66 which I assume happens in season 5 and of course the last arc with...you know the more I think about it the more of this show I DO remember so I will just quit while I am ahead... But season 4 still looks like its going to be a bit of a chore.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 18, 2020 6:09:32 GMT
... That's funny, I don't either. But if the writer throws something that doesn't make sense in then I expect them to do the legwork to make it make sense. And if they don't then that's shitty writing, which is what I call it. It's equally funny that you posit the writer's dilemma as either too much exposition on Canto Bight or only just enough exposition to direct the story. Here's an alternative: Cut out the weird nonsensical anti-corporate bullshit animal welfare part of the movie that turns out not to matter anyway and spend that time fleshing Rey, Kylo, Luke and Poe's situations out so they make more sense instead. You know, as a responsible writer would. Rose and Finn have a shared "the only way someone gets this rich is from war" exchange. The movie's message about rich people being complicit in violence is explicit. You recognizing that the stampede is problematic doesn't change anything. The movie portrays it as cathartic, as do our main characters. There's no ambivalence, Rian Johnson wants you to feel that it's fun and justified. That's the message the movie is sending, which is why it's relevant to the movie's messages. Simple as that. ... Listen to yourself - "shitty" this, "nonsensical" that - and for what? A plot inconsistency, that even if resolved, would still support a message you don't like and would complain about anyway. War profiteering, people making vast amounts of money from ongoing conflicts, worker abuse, and animal abuse are things in the real world, so I have no issues with them being depicted in a Star Wars movie, and have no requirement they be given an in-depth study here. Rose starts out by saying on the ship that Canto Bight is filled with the worst kinds of people, and she has heard stories about them. You are also conveniently forgetting the line right after the quote you gave, where Rose continues, "Selling weapons to the First Order." The movie's criticism is not about "rich people", its about THESE rich people. What it changes is: I doubt anyone actually thinks it is a good idea to run a stampede through a city, so as far a movie messages go it is one only heard by people who WANT something to criticize. Knock yourself out. I'll just point out that if the stampede wasn't in there, you'd still be complaining about the Canto Bight message. ... No, a frequent problem with your arguments is that you're willing to bail the writer out by giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there are logical reasons for every decision they make that they just don't feel like telling you, or which you just personally feel like making up on the spot. You're the movie director's answer to a cheap date. You just take everything you're offered and don't hold yourself or him to any standard at all. Why would I demand a writer fill in the blanks for something obvious? It is ridiculous way of viewing movies. I leave that type of criticism to those to use as a foil to push their own agendas. "The movie is inconsistent!" "What if we fixed the inconsistency?" "I STILL WOULDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE!!!" I think the issue often is how political messages are presented in fiction like this in the first place is it A. non judgemental to members of its audience B. is it logically consistent to the world the story is set in and C. does it do so in a logically consistent manner. A. Being something of a Capitalist myself...and not seeing a single whiff of Anti capitalism the answer to the first question is...well I don't feel judged. That anyone who isn't a capitalist can go to such lengths criticizing the movie is...again just fascinating to me. B. Given, as I said, the franchise is called Star WARS I think its a very interesting message to bring in that people can profit off of the Star...Wars. C. The last part probably has the most problem to it and where you fall on this question is how neccessary you view Canto Bight to the overall plot of the Last Jedi. I think it was more neccessary then certain other parts of the movie so, personally, I am largely fine with it and since it still dealt with many of the themes that Rian was trying to explore...failure..cycle of violence...and generally speaking that heroes in movies some times get away with stupid crap just because they *are* the heroes, it was a fascinating little thought experiment for me.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 18, 2020 12:03:03 GMT
Listen to yourself - "shitty" this, "nonsensical" that - and for what? A plot inconsistency, that even if resolved, would still support a message you don't like and would complain about anyway. War profiteering, people making vast amounts of money from ongoing conflicts, worker abuse, and animal abuse are things in the real world, so I have no issues with them being depicted in a Star Wars movie, and have no requirement they be given an in-depth study here. Rose starts out by saying on the ship that Canto Bight is filled with the worst kinds of people, and she has heard stories about them. You are also conveniently forgetting the line right after the quote you gave, where Rose continues, "Selling weapons to the First Order." The movie's criticism is not about "rich people", its about THESE rich people. What it changes is: I doubt anyone actually thinks it is a good idea to run a stampede through a city, so as far a movie messages go it is one only heard by people who WANT something to criticize. Knock yourself out. I'll just point out that if the stampede wasn't in there, you'd still be complaining about the Canto Bight message. Why would I demand a writer fill in the blanks for something obvious? It is ridiculous way of viewing movies. I leave that type of criticism to those to use as a foil to push their own agendas. "The movie is inconsistent!" "What if we fixed the inconsistency?" "I STILL WOULDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE!!!" Listen to yourself - "To me, the plot doesn't have to be consistent or make sense! I'll just be sitting there with my mouth open absorbing it like a zombie, no standards, no critical thinking and a suspension of disbelief that could cover the moon!" Urgh. For the record, people's enjoyment of something is generally magnified when they respect and believe in what they see on the screen, which they can't if it makes no sense and doesn't follow human logic. That's why classics tend to be very basic themes portrayed by really tight and realistic writing. War profiteering, worker abuse and animal cruelty are things committed in the real world by and to real people for real reasons that take time and thought to identify, get to the bottom of and prevent effectively. The movie says nothing at all about any of them, it just calls them bad and tries to show the heroes running a fright train over them because then that's good, right? It's childish and moronic. And no, if the stampede wasn't there and those issues had been realistically or at least insightfully investigated AND it actually turned out to have relevance to the plot then that would have been lovely. The whole sequence is full of holes and issues, pretending that I'm being exacting just because I wouldn't love it if they only got rid of the biggest one is ridiculous. And nope, Rose says "there's only one way anyone gets this rich", and Finn finishes the thought with "war". That she subsequently specifies that these rich people have supported the First Order doesn't actually modify that exchange, it just focuses our attention on the situation at hand. The characters agree that rich people must have gotten rich by supporting war, and Rose identifies these people as having done it by trading with the First Order. That's what that scene says to the audience. And it's disgustingly stupid and illogical. Nobody is demanding that the writer fills in the blanks for something obvious, just the gaping and pathetic plot holes they leave behind while trying to make a story that pushes an agenda. Canto Bight inexplicably being full of child slave labor is a plot hole. We know these people have access to better and more reliable and likely actually cheaper droids that they can absolutely afford. They're given no reason within the movie for wanting to have annoying, hungry and disobedient brats running around instead of nice and clean robots who follow their programming unquestionably. There is no natural explanation for this, because we know that corporations outsource their work to robots and computers to avoid having to support their laborers at first opportunity. A sizable chunk of the movie's audience has had it happen to them, and most of the rest know it's coming too. We all know that that's how things work, and that those stables should be full of previously established cleaning droids, not disloyal orphans with brooms who would rack up entire food budgets of their own and ruin the scenery besides. So in the absence of any obvious explanation the writer has a responsibility to explain what has happened in his world to make it plausible for rich technocrats with robot servants to suddenly employ Oliver Twist out of nowhere. If they don't, then the whole story loses credibility by association. Which is what happened a dozen times over in The Last Jedi. Which is why the movie is a laughingstock.
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Obadiah
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 18, 2020 15:45:46 GMT
Listen to yourself - "shitty" this, "nonsensical" that - and for what? A plot inconsistency, that even if resolved, would still support a message you don't like and would complain about anyway. War profiteering, people making vast amounts of money from ongoing conflicts, worker abuse, and animal abuse are things in the real world, so I have no issues with them being depicted in a Star Wars movie, and have no requirement they be given an in-depth study here. Rose starts out by saying on the ship that Canto Bight is filled with the worst kinds of people, and she has heard stories about them. You are also conveniently forgetting the line right after the quote you gave, where Rose continues, "Selling weapons to the First Order." The movie's criticism is not about "rich people", its about THESE rich people. What it changes is: I doubt anyone actually thinks it is a good idea to run a stampede through a city, so as far a movie messages go it is one only heard by people who WANT something to criticize. Knock yourself out. I'll just point out that if the stampede wasn't in there, you'd still be complaining about the Canto Bight message. Why would I demand a writer fill in the blanks for something obvious? It is ridiculous way of viewing movies. I leave that type of criticism to those to use as a foil to push their own agendas. "The movie is inconsistent!" "What if we fixed the inconsistency?" "I STILL WOULDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE!!!" Listen to yourself - "To me, the plot doesn't have to be consistent or make sense! I'll just be sitting there with my mouth open absorbing it like a zombie, no standards, no critical thinking and a suspension of disbelief that could cover the moon!" Urgh. For the record, people's enjoyment of something is generally magnified when they respect and believe in what they see on the screen, which they can't if it makes no sense and doesn't follow human logic. That's why classics tend to be very basic themes portrayed by really tight and realistic writing. ... Except it does follow human logic and make sense. Why exactly would Rose like a town full of war profiteers, or people who live a lavish lifestyle while abusing their workers? Why would Finn know about this town if he's only just now been a Storm Trooper? Rose's position and her and Finn's interaction is perfectly logical. You're basically complaining about the premise of her judgement, a premise you clearly understood (thus the movie did it's job in conveying the story), while complaining that the movie didn't expand that premise further to prove it. And then insult those of us who don't demand such an explanation, cuz OMG we're all such terrible movie watchers. ... War profiteering, worker abuse and animal cruelty are things committed in the real world by and to real people for real reasons that take time and thought to identify, get to the bottom of and prevent effectively. The movie says nothing at all about any of them, it just calls them bad and tries to show the heroes running a fright train over them because then that's good, right? It's childish and moronic. And no, if the stampede wasn't there and those issues had been realistically or at least insightfully investigated AND it actually turned out to have relevance to the plot then that would have been lovely. The whole sequence is full of holes and issues, pretending that I'm being exacting just because I wouldn't love it if they only got rid of the biggest one is ridiculous. ... It's simplified, like everything in Star Wars, but to the point. One can make a lot of money from a war. Not sure how "realistic" a depiction you require for this, but from this paragraph it sounds excessive. ... And nope, Rose says "there's only one way anyone gets this rich", and Finn finishes the thought with "war". That she subsequently specifies that these rich people have supported the First Order doesn't actually modify that exchange, it just focuses our attention on the situation at hand. The characters agree that rich people must have gotten rich by supporting war, and Rose identifies these people as having done it by trading with the First Order. That's what that scene says to the audience. And it's disgustingly stupid and illogical. Nobody is demanding that the writer fills in the blanks for something obvious, just the gaping and pathetic plot holes they leave behind while trying to make a story that pushes an agenda. ... So, this attempts to assert a message based on one bit of dialog, but refuses to use the information provided from the previous scene's dialog in the shuttle, and then minimizes the statement that exactly follows because it inconveniently disputes that one being highlighted. Thus we get: OMG Star Wars hates rich people! What nonsense. ... So in the absence of any obvious explanation the writer has a responsibility to explain what has happened in his world to make it plausible... No, the writer really doesn't need to explain a movie watcher's deduced inconsistencies in a science fantasy setting. Since we are now at the point where you are making up more inconsistencies for the lulz, I'll leave you to it.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2020 17:04:25 GMT
Listen to yourself - "shitty" this, "nonsensical" that - and for what? A plot inconsistency, that even if resolved, would still support a message you don't like and would complain about anyway. War profiteering, people making vast amounts of money from ongoing conflicts, worker abuse, and animal abuse are things in the real world, so I have no issues with them being depicted in a Star Wars movie, and have no requirement they be given an in-depth study here. Rose starts out by saying on the ship that Canto Bight is filled with the worst kinds of people, and she has heard stories about them. You are also conveniently forgetting the line right after the quote you gave, where Rose continues, "Selling weapons to the First Order." The movie's criticism is not about "rich people", its about THESE rich people. What it changes is: I doubt anyone actually thinks it is a good idea to run a stampede through a city, so as far a movie messages go it is one only heard by people who WANT something to criticize. Knock yourself out. I'll just point out that if the stampede wasn't in there, you'd still be complaining about the Canto Bight message. Why would I demand a writer fill in the blanks for something obvious? It is ridiculous way of viewing movies. I leave that type of criticism to those to use as a foil to push their own agendas. "The movie is inconsistent!" "What if we fixed the inconsistency?" "I STILL WOULDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE!!!" Listen to yourself - "To me, the plot doesn't have to be consistent or make sense! I'll just be sitting there with my mouth open absorbing it like a zombie, no standards, no critical thinking and a suspension of disbelief that could cover the moon!" Urgh. For the record, people's enjoyment of something is generally magnified when they respect and believe in what they see on the screen, which they can't if it makes no sense and doesn't follow human logic. That's why classics tend to be very basic themes portrayed by really tight and realistic writing. War profiteering, worker abuse and animal cruelty are things committed in the real world by and to real people for real reasons that take time and thought to identify, get to the bottom of and prevent effectively. The movie says nothing at all about any of them, it just calls them bad and tries to show the heroes running a fright train over them because then that's good, right? It's childish and moronic. And no, if the stampede wasn't there and those issues had been realistically or at least insightfully investigated AND it actually turned out to have relevance to the plot then that would have been lovely. The whole sequence is full of holes and issues, pretending that I'm being exacting just because I wouldn't love it if they only got rid of the biggest one is ridiculous. And nope, Rose says "there's only one way anyone gets this rich", and Finn finishes the thought with "war". That she subsequently specifies that these rich people have supported the First Order doesn't actually modify that exchange, it just focuses our attention on the situation at hand. The characters agree that rich people must have gotten rich by supporting war, and Rose identifies these people as having done it by trading with the First Order. That's what that scene says to the audience. And it's disgustingly stupid and illogical. Nobody is demanding that the writer fills in the blanks for something obvious, just the gaping and pathetic plot holes they leave behind while trying to make a story that pushes an agenda. Canto Bight inexplicably being full of child slave labor is a plot hole. We know these people have access to better and more reliable and likely actually cheaper droids that they can absolutely afford. They're given no reason within the movie for wanting to have annoying, hungry and disobedient brats running around instead of nice and clean robots who follow their programming unquestionably. There is no natural explanation for this, because we know that corporations outsource their work to robots and computers to avoid having to support their laborers at first opportunity. A sizable chunk of the movie's audience has had it happen to them, and most of the rest know it's coming too. We all know that that's how things work, and that those stables should be full of previously established cleaning droids, not disloyal orphans with brooms who would rack up entire food budgets of their own and ruin the scenery besides. So in the absence of any obvious explanation the writer has a responsibility to explain what has happened in his world to make it plausible for rich technocrats with robot servants to suddenly employ Oliver Twist out of nowhere. If they don't, then the whole story loses credibility by association. Which is what happened a dozen times over in The Last Jedi. Which is why the movie is a laughingstock. This they should have access to AI and droid technology, the use of kids for slave labor makes no sense beyond driving home Rian's point about Capitalism. The rich mingling in the casino all being designated as War Profiteers who are responsible for fuelling the conflict by providing equipment to both sides makes no sense lorewise beyond Rian Johnson using his self insert as a vehicle to inject his political views into the setting at the expense of creating inconsitencies in said setting's lore. The First Order uses their contacts at Kuat to provide them with funding and tech, and judging by the Supremacy's schematic their ships were constructed inhouse at the ship too. These people if they are all War Profiteers like Rose claims (psychic) being responsible for providing arms to both sides of the conflict when one side is self sufficient is just illogical.
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