mmoblitz
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Post by mmoblitz on Jan 19, 2017 13:25:05 GMT
For me, DA2 combat was the best of the series. In fact, aside from the rushed feel it gives, the companions are the best for me as well as the banter between them all. Had DAI kept the tactics as they were in DA2/DAO, they could have included the spirit tree again and have no need for potions to be used as basically your only healing source when not at camp. The old tactics system would not work in DAI as it was designed.
I think I remember someone at Bioware saying that they had lots of complaints that the tactics were too hard to use. My 10 yr old daughter at the time played the game in it's entirety from start to finish on a rogue, casual setting, using the presets provided for the tactics on her companions, and beat the game without a lot of problems. I made sure she skipped the romancing parts..lol.
I don't like to micromanage my games so having the tactics was a godsend. Just played my toon and could pretty much forget what the rest were doing. It's very difficult at higher levels to do that with the current system. I really dislike the companions in DAI so I mainly let them be the cannon fodder, turn off their use of potions, and if they die, they die. I found it easier to solo the game anyway. I did it on nightmare with a rogue and again with a mage. Only taking companions when I needed to for companion quests. The banter didn't work in my game so that didn't matter to me about having them.
Unless the next one has the tactics added back in like they were in DA2 and they do a much better job on the port to PC (don't own a console and never will), my time with this series is over.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 19, 2017 19:35:32 GMT
I'd like to understand why. I've seen many comments in a similar vein, so there is a common thread and a desire in at least one segment of DA players to have the system conform to this, but I admit I don't get it. To me, a health system like that is essentially the same as saying that combat has no consequences. Which leads me to the question, why have combat at all? I'm not sure if the root of that is a desire for cinematic combat without player interaction, sort of like watching an action movie, or a desire to not be punished for bad combat play, like having to reload from a checkpoint and wait through a load screen. Maybe a bit of both. I want to understand, because I'm optimistic that the combat system can be tweaked to satisfy both audiences. Because it's slower and more boring than go-go-go combat when you can just play fast, cool combat animations and replenish the health pool as you go and feel awesome and clever. Shuffling through inventory, stacking up on potions, or having to watch fireplace animations loadscreens is extremely boring logistics. for the same reason I do not want to spend my precious gametime buying food, water and finding a safe place to urinate in peace for the sake of gritty realism. It's really disheartening if the game grades your performance and doles out fun in proportion to your gaming ability. Like any ability, in a normal distribution, the most people fall into an average category, and therefore make mistakes. Clever game will make you feel awesome when playing, vs nagging with the reminders that you suck, and should really play it at "casual" setting where everything topples over the moment you swing your sword. Do you really like spending time with someone who continuously brings up the smallest failures and mishaps, or would you rather be with someone who smoothest them over, forgets and moves on? Traditional healing or health regens mask mistakes and provides fun combat experience and does not rub your nose in them. And you spend more time having fun, less time staring at loadscreens. I'd rather the debs did not spend crunch time on fixing what ain't broken, and devising clever way to punish the players for not being within the top 10% Okay, I get it. How about one of these alternatives? Both of these have been tried in other games in the past. 1. AI-assisted combat You still push the buttons and move the character around, but the AI assists with targeting, interrupts (takes over) to do an evasion move if you are about to take a big hit, optimally casts support spells or whatnot that you overlooked, and generally reduces the effort to making combat fast and fun. 2. Non-interactive cinematic combat Basically turns combat into a scripted and choreographed cutscene. The AI uses whatever build and gear you've outfitted, but does all the work, including camera angles for best action movie effect. Would either of those work for you? I think the underlying point that's emerging from these comments is that they aren't really about the health system. They are more about a different, and completely valid, playstyle that players want the game to support. So I'm hopeful that with some amount of AI assistance, the combat system can still be structured in the way I propose, while Casual/Story mode accomodate the playstyle that your comments represent.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 19:45:56 GMT
Because it's slower and more boring than go-go-go combat when you can just play fast, cool combat animations and replenish the health pool as you go and feel awesome and clever. Shuffling through inventory, stacking up on potions, or having to watch fireplace animations loadscreens is extremely boring logistics. for the same reason I do not want to spend my precious gametime buying food, water and finding a safe place to urinate in peace for the sake of gritty realism. It's really disheartening if the game grades your performance and doles out fun in proportion to your gaming ability. Like any ability, in a normal distribution, the most people fall into an average category, and therefore make mistakes. Clever game will make you feel awesome when playing, vs nagging with the reminders that you suck, and should really play it at "casual" setting where everything topples over the moment you swing your sword. Do you really like spending time with someone who continuously brings up the smallest failures and mishaps, or would you rather be with someone who smoothest them over, forgets and moves on? Traditional healing or health regens mask mistakes and provides fun combat experience and does not rub your nose in them. And you spend more time having fun, less time staring at loadscreens. I'd rather the debs did not spend crunch time on fixing what ain't broken, and devising clever way to punish the players for not being within the top 10% Okay, I get it. How about one of these alternatives? Both of these have been tried in other games in the past. 1. AI-assisted combat You still push the buttons and move the character around, but the AI assists with targeting, interrupts (takes over) to do an evasion move if you are about to take a big hit, optimally casts support spells or whatnot that you overlooked, and generally reduces the effort to making combat fast and fun. 2. Non-interactive cinematic combat Basically turns combat into a scripted and choreographed cutscene. The AI uses whatever build and gear you've outfitted, but does all the work, including camera angles for best action movie effect. Would either of those work for you? I think the underlying point that's emerging from these comments is that they aren't really about the health system. They are more about a different, and completely valid, playstyle that players want the game to support. So I'm hopeful that with some amount of AI assistance, the combat system can still be structured in the way I propose, while Casual/Story mode accomodate the playstyle that your comments represent. Oh, no, you did not get it. You've glossed over my response and fell right back on your own unflattering pre-conceptions and flat out told me what I should want in my game. Allow me to be crystal clear. I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY CASUAL/STORY MODE. I want to play Normal. In the games with the rulesets I like & where I like combat. Which is something I am perfectly capable of doing with the healing spells :) I do not AI (or anyone else for that matter) to patronize me. I want what I always had. Do not try to equate liking healing with being a terribad. I do not want to avoid playing, if I did, I'd watch TV, not play games. I like controlling my actions completely, and in a party-based control scenario I always watch for which character I should be controlling right now, not just the main. I however acknowledge that I make mistakes, and I like the way the traditional healing or health restoration helps me to mitigate them. I <3 healing spells. In addition, as someone who played the healer as a main, I happen to like traditional reactive healing as a role and as spellcasting and as an archtype of a character that, well, heals, rather than a collection of pots in a bag. Let me repeat it, just so there is no two ways to interpret it. I LOVE HEALING. I do not own Inquisition, and healing is a large contributing part of it. Spells on CD on a real healer, either main char or a cool NPC >>>>> crafting or resorce collection to purchase pots. The only games where this system does not work is where you only control one character, so you cannot dedicate him or her to healing. Then, you need to get all those alternatives to a healer. But in a 4M party game? Healer's awesome & optional if you can't stand bringing it along or playing it. Craft pots, no skin of my nose. And for the life of me I don't see dodging the hassle of dragging your character to a temple after every fight as a god-awesome reward for skilful play.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 2:23:23 GMT
Allow me to be crystal clear. I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY CASUAL/STORY MODE.I want to play Normal. In the games with the rulesets I like & where I like combat. Which is something I am perfectly capable of doing with the healing spells I do not AI (or anyone else for that matter) to patronize me. I want what I always had. Do not try to equate liking healing with being a terribad. Okay. I'm not sure why Casual/Story mode is patronizing, but fine. It's true I misunderstood your comments from earlier. They are not like the others in the trend I was describing, including phrases like "I play for the story" or "I suck at combat". If you are not in that group, my bad. We could just leave it there, but I'm curious about this: I admit that you are the first person I have ever heard say they like to play the healer as their PC. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that I've never heard anyone who was so passionate about the traditional healer role. In my own experience, coming from tabletop D&D, nobody wanted to play a healer. They hated that role. So you can understand why I wasn't prepared for the direction you are coming from. Again, nothing wrong with it. I guess avoiding DAI completely is consistent with your playstyle as well. But I'm afraid it doesn't leave me much common ground to learn anything from you.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 20, 2017 2:52:08 GMT
Because it's slower and more boring than go-go-go combat when you can just play fast, cool combat animations and replenish the health pool as you go and feel awesome and clever. Shuffling through inventory, stacking up on potions, or having to watch fireplace animations loadscreens is extremely boring logistics. for the same reason I do not want to spend my precious gametime buying food, water and finding a safe place to urinate in peace for the sake of gritty realism. It's really disheartening if the game grades your performance and doles out fun in proportion to your gaming ability. Like any ability, in a normal distribution, the most people fall into an average category, and therefore make mistakes. Clever game will make you feel awesome when playing, vs nagging with the reminders that you suck, and should really play it at "casual" setting where everything topples over the moment you swing your sword. Do you really like spending time with someone who continuously brings up the smallest failures and mishaps, or would you rather be with someone who smoothest them over, forgets and moves on? Traditional healing or health regens mask mistakes and provides fun combat experience and does not rub your nose in them. And you spend more time having fun, less time staring at loadscreens. I'd rather the debs did not spend crunch time on fixing what ain't broken, and devising clever way to punish the players for not being within the top 10% Okay, I get it. How about one of these alternatives? Both of these have been tried in other games in the past. 1. AI-assisted combat You still push the buttons and move the character around, but the AI assists with targeting, interrupts (takes over) to do an evasion move if you are about to take a big hit, optimally casts support spells or whatnot that you overlooked, and generally reduces the effort to making combat fast and fun. 2. Non-interactive cinematic combat Basically turns combat into a scripted and choreographed cutscene. The AI uses whatever build and gear you've outfitted, but does all the work, including camera angles for best action movie effect. Would either of those work for you? I think the underlying point that's emerging from these comments is that they aren't really about the health system. They are more about a different, and completely valid, playstyle that players want the game to support. So I'm hopeful that with some amount of AI assistance, the combat system can still be structured in the way I propose, while Casual/Story mode accomodate the playstyle that your comments represent. I'm in a different group than @domi, apparently, but I also would find these features patronizing. Like having someone watching you play constantly going, "No no, you're doing it wrong...just LET ME DO IT FOR YOU," and snatching the controller out of your hand There is nothing here that allows you to get better at combat since the AI is constantly bailing you out. Healing potions and healing spells give you space to learn the combat system since you can "undo" mistakes and try again without being penalized by a loading screen. Those players who want to play without potions and spells should be given the option to not buy potions and not assign healing spells. Did you let Cole get too close to that shocktrooper and now he's got that measly last bit of health left? No problem! Just give him a healing po--- oh, you've spent too long away from camp and/or Skyhold and have used your 8 allotted potions over the last hour of play? Well, sucks to be Cole (and you!) since you have no choice now but to either reload to before this encounter, or let everyone die and hope one of you holds out long enough to fast travel somewhere safe! Whereas in DA2's system with as many healing potions as I could find or afford AND healing spells, I could spend ages out exploring the world and learning to get better at combat without worrying that the next encounter would wipe me out and send me sniveling back to Leandra.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 12:55:49 GMT
dragontartare really put it down well about the lack of ability to go through a school of hard knocks, particularly if going Casual is the only way to avoid endless boring returns to the temple, so you'd rather take a reduction in difficulty over the yawn fest of long distance commutes. I mained a Druid in tabletop DnD. In video games, I played Druids, bards and combos with priests. In MMOs I started learning in group pvp, rather than PvE, and was playing a tank at first on advice, and then made a friend who was one of the best healers I knew, and he schooled me first as a cohealer, then as a pocket healer to his tank, and finally-to his dps. He drilled it into me the two essential rules: Healer directs the flow of the battle and Healer lets stupid DPS die. In other words, a healer is a natural strategist that also continuously triages, making descision about who lives and who dies. Healer is by far easier to play in a paired set-up, and with a good friend both of you end up doing the incredible, like holding a choke-point vs 5 opponents. An exceptional healer on his own can hold against 3 dps, if not more if they are not smart. Later on I played mostly as a healer in larger groups, harder content, and it is the most rewarding role I've played. It is also a great learner/beginner role, one of the reasons why most Asian MMO feature an obnoxiously cute girlfriend's healer class. On the other end of the spectrum, healer is a common pick for guys who like to solo group content. But who cares about what you can do in MMO. IN Dragon Age, putting one of the mages in a healer role is the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role. With limited roles of the companions, it's one of the easiest ways to create a party that is functional and that you love, and even carry a "useless" comp that you happen to love. Finally, all that aside, the mechanics you are sugggesting are neither novel (we used to go back to heal and raise dead at temples and set up fires to heal up in BG1) nor it contributes anything skilful. Good healing under pressure is skilful. Going back to HQ between battles is not. It's just cumbersome and increases playtime and doles out some archaic punishment. I'd rather see more dynamic and variable healing skill set with free-aiming heals, heal combos, etc.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 20:28:33 GMT
There is nothing here that allows you to get better at combat since the AI is constantly bailing you out. Healing potions and healing spells give you space to learn the combat system since you can "undo" mistakes and try again without being penalized by a loading screen. I understand. I hope it's clear that I agree with you? What I'm aiming for is a combat system that achieves those very same goals, without resorting to bottomless healing potions, healing spells, or a healer role. The "risk bar" in my original proposal covers all of the things you mentioned.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 20:33:25 GMT
IN Dragon Age, putting one of the mages in a healer role is the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role. With limited roles of the companions, it's one of the easiest ways to create a party that is functional and that you love, and even carry a "useless" comp that you happen to love. We'll just have to agree to disagree about this. I think it's a travesty to have to devote an entire character to healing. That strikes me as a flaw in the combat system. And it absolutely is not "the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role." Well, I never claimed it was novel, only better. Not sure what your example has to do with anything either. My system doesn't require returning anywhere for anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 20:42:09 GMT
IN Dragon Age, putting one of the mages in a healer role is the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role. With limited roles of the companions, it's one of the easiest ways to create a party that is functional and that you love, and even carry a "useless" comp that you happen to love. We'll just have to agree to disagree about this. I think it's a travesty to have to devote an entire character to healing. That strikes me as a flaw in the combat system. And it absolutely is not "the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role." Well, I never claimed it was novel, only better. ;) Not sure what your example has to do with anything either. My system doesn't require returning anywhere for anything. I love my Trinity, yes, and think healer in a party is awesome. Without healer, you are left with three roles, ranged dps, melee dps and a tank. Four people. Duplication of a role results by definition. You are left with no choice but to play a character whose primary mission to hurt and kill others, since the tanks have far less flavor as a leader and protector in an sp game. Yes, it does require trecking back to hq for anyone reasonable, because you propose only to heal incrementally, not to full, unless you consume a potion, or go back to HQ. And the potions in your suggestion take ultra-rare mats each. So, if your unfortunate player wants to upgrade his or her gear, s/he of course will return back to HQ to save the mats. You are catching a player into a trap of if you don't gear up, you'll get damage, if you get damage, your performance diminishes, unless you use up mats for a pot. But if you use up mats for a pot, you cannot gear up now. Hence, you'll get damage.... a sane person is going to squeeze their teeth shut and click the travel button every time over wasting mats on a consumable. And to achieve what? Eliminating healing from the game? Seriously, I'd rather there was no pots at all, only healing. At least that helps with inventory and cuts down on commutes if you do play with a heals. Seriously, BnS wanted to cut out the heals, but in the end to increase the difficulty on the high levels, they started adding more and more of it back, from self-heals to kit redesign.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 20:50:24 GMT
We'll just have to agree to disagree about this. I think it's a travesty to have to devote an entire character to healing. That strikes me as a flaw in the combat system. And it absolutely is not "the only way you can have 4 characters that do not duplicate a role." Well, I never claimed it was novel, only better. Not sure what your example has to do with anything either. My system doesn't require returning anywhere for anything. I love my Trinity, yes, and think healer in a party is awesome. Without healer, you are left with three roles, ranged dps, melee dps and a tank. Four people. Duplication of a role results by definition. Ah, I see. You don't think that's rather a rigid structure, not to mention old-fashioned? In any case, I don't agree that the Trinity is the holy be-all to end-all. Overwatch would only have 4 champions if that were true. Well now I'm going to have to eat my words -- I have learned something from you. I think it's daft that people would return to HQ ever 10 minutes just to retain their one crafting item, instead of, you know, going and getting another one, but fine. You've said you hate all the crafting and inventory shuffling anyway, so that's consistent. Just to be clear, I didn't say that you couldn't craft any gear, I just want the cost to be traded off against the best gear. You can take slightly less than the best gear and have a healing potion instead. Isn't that fair? I can't remove the return to HQ clause, because it would be dumb for restoration to 100% to not happen on return to HQ. Everyone would complain, why didn't the hospital at HQ patch up my laceration? What's the point of having an HQ if you can rest up and recover? So that has to stay, but what I'm hearing is that there needs to be a lower cost alternative, between sacrificing a premium crafting item and returning to HQ. I'll think about that, thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 20:57:02 GMT
I love my Trinity, yes, and think healer in a party is awesome. Without healer, you are left with three roles, ranged dps, melee dps and a tank. Four people. Duplication of a role results by definition. Ah, I see. You don't think that's rather a rigid structure, not to mention old-fashioned? In any case, I don't agree that the Trinity is the holy be-all to end-all. Overwatch would only have 4 champions if that were true. Well now I'm going to have to eat my words -- I have learned something from you. I think it's daft that people would return to HQ ever 10 minutes just to retain their one crafting item, instead of, you know, going and getting another one, but fine. You've said you hate all the crafting and inventory shuffling anyway, so that's consistent. Just to be clear, I didn't say that you couldn't craft any gear, I just want the cost to be traded off against the best gear. You can take slightly less than the best gear and have a healing potion instead. Isn't that fair? I can't remove the return to HQ clause, because it would be dumb for restoration to 100% to not happen on return to HQ. Everyone would complain, why didn't the hospital at HQ patch up my laceration? What's the point of having an HQ if you can rest up and recover? So that has to stay, but what I'm hearing is that there needs to be a lower cost alternative, between sacrificing a premium crafting item and returning to HQ. I'll think about that, thanks. Consumable, any consumable, is infinitely less valuable than the BiS gear. Any game that has a chance of destroying your equipment when upgrading (or pvp) was reviled and did not survive long. Gear is forever. Yeah, the low cost alternative such as... a healing spell? That's your infinitely available resource you trade in for dps. See, now that makes sense. Seriously, when I play with heals, I sell the pots I find. Peeps can't be bothered to heal - go get pots. People want inventory space -add a healer. Simple, and suits multiple playstyles and preferences. EDIT: TBH, you need to just check out a few vids on utube or something looking at how a skillful healer plays. because you are starting from a wrong assumption: that a role itself is flawed. I mean, here is Dulfy healing Underlurker (unless she replaced the vid):
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Post by Gilli on Jan 20, 2017 21:16:45 GMT
There is nothing here that allows you to get better at combat since the AI is constantly bailing you out. Healing potions and healing spells give you space to learn the combat system since you can "undo" mistakes and try again without being penalized by a loading screen. I understand. I hope it's clear that I agree with you? What I'm aiming for is a combat system that achieves those very same goals, without resorting to bottomless healing potions, healing spells, or a healer role. The "risk bar" in my original proposal covers all of the things you mentioned. Just curious, but what's bad about that? I haven't played many western RPGs (DAO was actually my first western RPG), so excuse that I have to refer to JRPGs regarding this. Final Fantasy X-2 is one of my favorite games ever, it is the game I poured the most hours into before I played DAI. (over 500 hours on my PS2, I think I replayed it at least 5 times) FFX-2 had items capped at 99 and because of NG+ I always had nearly all my items maxed out at 99, especially Hi-Potions and Phoenix Downs. Also I had Yuna switch from Gunner to White Mage in my team when I needed it, while Rikku and Paine attacked. (as Thief/Dark Knight * respectively) Just because I had tons of healing items, that didn't mean I just spammed Potions. FFX-2 being a round based game meant that I had to "sacrifice" a round on Healing instead of attacking, so I had to think carefully "Do I want to heal now, or do I want to keep attacking this boss and hope he dies before me?" That being said, I never used Potions if my charas just lost a little health, I used them when they were on their knees. *JFYI Dark Knight is my favorite Dressphere, especially for Paine, my most used attack with her was Darkness, which is basically the Reaver's Dragon Rage, so keeping her alive while she was sacrificing her HPs to attack was one of my biggest priorities. For one Boss battle I'd even use Rikku and Paine both as Dark Knights, while Yuna buffed/healed them. Oh! I nearly forgot! Just because you play a Healer, doesn't mean you can't attack! Just look at ZITHER! in Multiplayer. He's a support mage with tons of buffs, he even has Sing-Along which gives your party a Heal-on-Hit buff. At the same time he has Hot Links, Power Chord and Cool Beats. I looove playing Support-ZITHER!.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 21:24:27 GMT
There is nothing here that allows you to get better at combat since the AI is constantly bailing you out. Healing potions and healing spells give you space to learn the combat system since you can "undo" mistakes and try again without being penalized by a loading screen. I understand. I hope it's clear that I agree with you? What I'm aiming for is a combat system that achieves those very same goals, without resorting to bottomless healing potions, healing spells, or a healer role. The "risk bar" in my original proposal covers all of the things you mentioned. All you do is replace on the spot mitigation with a long-distance commute, sacrificing an entire player's role, RP aspect, writing for the characters that are healers, more choices in the party composition, part of the lore for the sake of... What exactly? Seeing more clearly how much health damage you took during a battle? And all of it because a few of your tabletop friends did not like rolling heals in D&D?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 20, 2017 23:30:38 GMT
Just curious, but what's bad about that? I'm happy to explain, but it will make more sense if you watch this video analyzing health systems in games first. I've been heavily influenced by the analysis in that vid. Also, it's worth reading Lukas Kristjanson and Patrick Weekes's comments on the changes to DAI healing in Hrungr's post above. Some of the stuff he says is directional, meaning, I want DA to go further in that direction. Finally, the OP lists the goals of what the healing system I propose tries to acccomplish, which implies what I want to remove. Each in turn: Bottomless healing potsThis is equivalent to combat with no consequences. If combat has no consequences, why bother with it? Just let the AI do everything and sit back and watch a great action scene. There are games where I wish I could let the AI do the fighting, because I was bored and/or had my nerves wrecked by the combat system of the game. I'm looking at you Ninja Gaiden Black! Keep in mind that the function of healing pots as an allowance against mistakes while you learn can be done more elegantly with something else. Something that's automatic and whose rules are clear and can be planned around, like the "risk bar" I propose. That said, the more healing pots are limited, the more that combat has consequences. It's the bottomless that's the problem, not the healing pot itself. As Lukas Kristjanson said in Hrungr's post, bottomless healing pots is the same as infinite HP, which makes it impossible to design combat encounters that are balanced. The result to players? A large group of players that faceroll through the "hardest" boss battles, and a larger group that give up the game in frustration because they can't get past the boss. Healing spellsThese are immersion breaking. If healing magic exists, why not use it to save any important character during a cutscene? Why must Gray Wardens die to stupid blood sacrifices, just cast healing on them! Why must Abelas die after Morrigan stabs him? Just cast healing on him! Why must Celene die to an assassin's blade? Just cast healing on her! There's no good option here. If healing magic exists, either story writers have to never write a scene where someone dies, or contrive the scene so much (all the possible healers are knocked unconscious) that it's painful or laughable, or go ahead and write a scene where someone dies and just hope the player doesn't notice. Can't we do better? HealersAside from the same immersion breaking problem of healing spells, healer's as a combat role act as a limit on player creativity, for cases where fighting a battle without a healer would be playing wrong. What if I want to roll with 4 rogues cuz that's fun for me? Too bad, you need a healer. What if I want to roll with 4 warriors because that is essential to the roleplaying story I'm creating around my PC? Too bad, you need a healer. To be sure, it's not the role itself that is the limit, it's the battles the devs design knowing that you could have a healer in the party. If they couldn't be sure of that, if they always designed for the case where there is no healer in the party, I would withdraw my objection. Well, this part of it anyway. I'm perfectly fine with healers in non-combat roles. There are many non-combat roles: blacksmith, merchant, servant, bann, that are essential to the story. Well, unless they can cast healing magic, then we are back to the second problem. But if healers are apothecaries and surgeons and such, that would be fine. Just don't force me to take a healer to a boss battle because you didn't design an alternative solution for me, or allow for emergent solutions. (Whew, I think I restored most of the original post.)
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 21, 2017 3:31:35 GMT
There is nothing here that allows you to get better at combat since the AI is constantly bailing you out. Healing potions and healing spells give you space to learn the combat system since you can "undo" mistakes and try again without being penalized by a loading screen. I understand. I hope it's clear that I agree with you? What I'm aiming for is a combat system that achieves those very same goals, without resorting to bottomless healing potions, healing spells, or a healer role. The "risk bar" in my original proposal covers all of the things you mentioned. I don't agree. I know you put a lot of thought into this, but I still fail to see how your ideas are better, rather than just different. I did watch the video back when you first posted this thread, and if I recall correctly the video is about shooters anyway. In another post you said that healing spells are immersion-breaking because then no one would ever die, but that there is nothing wrong with healing potions in and of themselves. How can healing spells break immersion but healing potions do not? They are both magical ways to heal injuries, the only difference being that one comes from another person and that the other comes from a bottle of liquid. If one breaks immersion, then so does the other...but why should they? These games have plenty of mechanics that you need to take with a grain of salt, lest your immersion break every 10 seconds. At least in DA, we have the Theodosian fear of mages to account for why every little village doesn't have a mage healer to keep everyone alive. To address the "bottomless" health potions...well, they aren't literally bottomless, obviously. If you pay gold for them, you've got to decide whether healing potions are truly worth your money, or whether you are better off spending your gold on equipment or grenades, or even just waiting to level up before attempting to defeat a given enemy. If you're downing health potions non-stop, then you most definitely have suffered consequences for your mistakes (in the form of lost gold with nothing to show for it, which you could have used for something else) and you most definitely did not breeze through those battles (else you would not have needed all those potions). If you allow players to buy health potions and cast healing spells -- or to not do those things, as the case may be -- then you put control of playstyle back in the hands of the players, rather than trying to force players to conform to one way of playing the game.
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 21, 2017 11:23:38 GMT
Healers can be included without being mandatory. You didn't need healers in DA2. People seemed to think they did, which was a problem since they felt forced to take a companion they didn't like, but they really weren't necessary.
Part of the fault was the way the game obfuscated the potion refill mechanic - there's nothing to clearly tell you that the game gives you extra potions whenever you're short of them, and players tend to be very stingy with consumables that aren't given to them for free.
I felt removing healing in DAI gave me less freedom to choose my party since it helped make taking a tank almost obligatory.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 21, 2017 19:49:05 GMT
In another post you said that healing spells are immersion-breaking because then no one would ever die, but that there is nothing wrong with healing potions in and of themselves. How can healing spells break immersion but healing potions do not? They are both magical ways to heal injuries, the only difference being that one comes from another person and that the other comes from a bottle of liquid. If one breaks immersion, then so does the other...but why should they? That's a fair point. I guess it's all on the same spectrum, but there's a line for everyone. For me, potions don't cross the line, because, you know, if you kill someone by cutting their head off, how are they going to drink a potion? Whereas a spell doesn't care how many pieces you are chopped up into, it always works. If the potion is something you sprinkle on a person, then that gets a lot closer to the line for me. So the Healing Mist Grenade is over the line for me. I do concede that different people may draw the line at different points on the spectrum, including at a point where spells and potions don't break immersion, but IMO, that seems a bit extreme. Equally extreme to potions and spells both breaking immersion. If gold were harder to get, or more to the point, if spending gold was a direct trade-off with having the best possible gear, and scarce enough that you can't have both easily, we're saying the same thing. Gold has historically been too easy to get, so it's not adequate for creating the trade-off I'm looking for. Then there's the issue of balancing a combat encounter when the range of health is super wide. It doesn't have to be infinite to cause a problem for devs and players in turn. Well, I am allowing players to buy healing potions, I'm just raising the stakes a little. Absolutely no one is prevented from buying healing potions.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 21, 2017 19:56:29 GMT
I felt removing healing in DAI gave me less freedom to choose my party since it helped make taking a tank almost obligatory. Less freedom, or traded one set of limitations for another, arguably smaller set? I do agree with you that the "no healer" stance of DAI removes one degree of freedom. The question is, does it add back another degree or two of freedom that, in the net, is more freedom overall? I do have a tank role in my party for DAI, but I don't feel like it's playing wrong to not have a tank in the hardest boss battles. I feel free to choose, tank yes or no. Whereas in DAO it did feel like playing wrong when Wynne was not in the party, for some boss battles. How much is subjective and how much is imposed by the game itself? I admit, the answer to that question is not always obvious and can easily be debatable.
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 22, 2017 18:11:03 GMT
I felt removing healing in DAI gave me less freedom to choose my party since it helped make taking a tank almost obligatory. Less freedom, or traded one set of limitations for another, arguably smaller set? I do agree with you that the "no healer" stance of DAI removes one degree of freedom. The question is, does it add back another degree or two of freedom that, in the net, is more freedom overall? I do have a tank role in my party for DAI, but I don't feel like it's playing wrong to not have a tank in the hardest boss battles. I feel free to choose, tank yes or no. Whereas in DAO it did feel like playing wrong when Wynne was not in the party, for some boss battles. How much is subjective and how much is imposed by the game itself? I admit, the answer to that question is not always obvious and can easily be debatable. Its hard to compare DAO because the healing system was kinda broken. Healers weren't necessary, but that wasn't really a good thing since it was because you could potion spam to fix anything. Which is why I compare to DA2, whose healing system I mostly liked. And there, I do feel I've lost freedom. Tanks seem much more necessary, and one or more barrier mages feels at least as necessary as a healer anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 14:35:40 GMT
BRING.
BACK. HEALERS.
DAI "system" is terrible. Shielding is terrible. Guard is terrible.
HEALERS COME BACK!
And auto-health restoration after the combat. Or "set camp anywhere" like in Baldur's Gate for gods' sake.
DOWN with the limited potion system!
It's moronic, idiotic, dumb, kill-joy, stupid and should BURN!
HEALER! HEALER! HEALER!
I hate DAI combat system and I hate what is suggested in the first post. The only way to improve DAI combat is to go right back to DA2 ruleset for everything.
I like and want DA2/MET like systems.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 25, 2017 14:52:49 GMT
BRING. BACK. HEALERS. DAI "system" is terrible. Shielding is terrible. Guard is terrible. HEALERS COME BACK! And auto-health restoration after the combat. Or "set camp anywhere" like in Baldur's Gate for gods' sake. DOWN with the limited potion system! It's moronic, idiotic, dumb, kill-joy, stupid and should BURN! HEALER! HEALER! HEALER! I hate DAI combat system and I hate what is suggested in the first post. The only way to improve DAI combat is to go right back to DA2 ruleset for everything. I like and want DA2/MET like systems. Yes. Not mentioned, that the spirit healer is a very interesting spec. I want to back. The Inquisition's mage talents was much more worse and boring than DA2 and DAO.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 25, 2017 19:47:32 GMT
BRING. BACK. HEALERS. DAI "system" is terrible. Shielding is terrible. Guard is terrible. HEALERS COME BACK! And auto-health restoration after the combat. Or "set camp anywhere" like in Baldur's Gate for gods' sake. DOWN with the limited potion system! It's moronic, idiotic, dumb, kill-joy, stupid and should BURN! HEALER! HEALER! HEALER! I hate DAI combat system and I hate what is suggested in the first post. The only way to improve DAI combat is to go right back to DA2 ruleset for everything. I like and want DA2/MET like systems. While I don't think the current system is perfect either, there are good reasons why moved away from the earlier systems... bsn.boards.net/post/222704/thread
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 25, 2017 22:50:15 GMT
I find it tough to discuss Health & Healing without knowing if there's going to be a shift in core gameplay.
For example, if they do incorporate skill-based elements like active blocks, evades, etc. for everyone that might change how you'd look at dealing with health/healing/defenses like guard & barrier.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 26, 2017 0:46:49 GMT
Healers can be included without being mandatory. You didn't need healers in DA2. People seemed to think they did, which was a problem since they felt forced to take a companion they didn't like, but they really weren't necessary. Part of the fault was the way the game obfuscated the potion refill mechanic - there's nothing to clearly tell you that the game gives you extra potions whenever you're short of them, and players tend to be very stingy with consumables that aren't given to them for free. I felt removing healing in DAI gave me less freedom to choose my party since it helped make taking a tank almost obligatory. I know this is an old post, but I want to respond anyway. This view comes from your own experience with the combat is DA2. You can't know how someone else experienced the game. Maybe for them it WAS necessary to have a healer. This comes down to player choices with their own spec, party choice, gear choice, and so on. A healer wasn't necessary for YOU. My first play is always sort of a dud as I'm learning the mechanics and everything. I did the Orsino and Meredith fights at level 19, kind of sucked, and most definitely DID need a healer. On subsequent plays it was hardly necessary, even on harder difficulties, when I was level 27 and plowed through everything. The design of the DA2 party system meant that you could end up in those fights without any sort of healer. If your character was not a mage, Bethany could be dead, as could Anders, and Merrill did not even have the creation tree (and could be dead). To my mind, the only way to have healers not be mandatory is to have health and defense systems that do not require magical healing. I liked guard in DAI, and that everyone could have guard (not just tanks) if they had crafted gear that generated guard. You dislike feeling required to bring a tank, whereas I dislike feeling required to bring a healer. I don't think anyone should be forced to take a character they don't like to fulfill a certain role, as dictated by the combat mechanics. The characters in these games are hugely important to me, and it matters tremendously that I be able to bring along the people that I want and prefer. If there is optional content that I can't access because I didn't bring a rogue, random unlocked chests or doors, then so be it, but I don't want to feel forced to bring certain people along for certain fights, or large chunks of the game because of combat mechanics. [edit] To people saying "bring back healers" because you like healing, well that's fine for you. And you can have healing as long as it's not required. I truly hope that they do and you can enjoy it. The problem comes in finding a balance between having that ability and balancing combat around having that ability, as the devs stated in the posts on the DAI healing changes. People need to actually read those posts and understand what the devs were saying when it comes to balancing combat and all of the myriad factors that go into that from a developer perspective. They didn't remove healing just to be mean or take away your fun.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 2:16:18 GMT
Then do the All-DPS game, and do the health regeneration like in MET with a small party or so... but then it's not a Trinity game any longer, then cut out the Tanks too. It's unfair that it's the healers that get cut out.
I like to rely on healing in my games, rather than on tanks... I played DA 2 with a heavy Dps instead of a full tank. Because I liked them more. A good healer can carry through a good Dps too...
But no, no, we have to have the taunt spammer and damage sponge.... it's sooo much more sophisticated then the heals....
And whatever you do, it gotta exclude the tracking back to camps and limited pots. Life's too short for that. Battle is done, we won, hurray, give us back full health, we are on the road, back in the saddle, having fun... walking back through the same landscape because you are 40% down on health... sucks.
Inquisition is a huge let down after DA2.
For me, healing never felt unbalancing and made the game too easy in either Origins or DA2. Heck, I had to go down to Casual difficulty on that battle with 39 small dragons....
As far as I am concerned, they took away my fun, by eliminating something I really liked as well as the characters that are healers in their background, like Anders was... we will never see a healer again then... because apparently healing is no longer an important part of this world. It's all about the hurts.
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