inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2017 16:40:11 GMT
Not sure killing Meredith alone would have accomplished much. Cullen would have been kinder and most likely would have punished Alrik and his like but the system would have stayed in place. And if Cullen made those changes it would more than likely be that he would have been removed quickly. His superiors would either believe in the system or not, if not may not have wanted to risk stepping up to offer Cullen assistance in any changes he might have made in Kirkwall. Maybe his superiors think Cullen is a threat in trying to reform and if they let Cullen do that to Kirkwall, then the reforms will spread - power, authority could be lessened for the Chantry, Templars, seekers, popuation at large.
Elthina, Meredith and quite possiblly their superiors knew the abuses going on in the Kirkwall circle and yet they did nothing.
When you have an entire system, entire society set on a cruel system to control people by fear and abuse it takes more than one person to reform that. Many people will want to safeguard themselves and family first, even knowing they system is cruel and not working. It takes a willingness to lose everything to reform a society like that.
Yes. Killing Meredith isn't matter too much. Cullen probably would more normal, than Meredith, but I'm not sure, if Anders kill her, Cullen wouldn't be a bit paranoid again: he have PTSD because of Uldred and other mages (in Kirkwall too). So: a mage (Abomination! – as they would call, if Anders lose his control) kill the Knight Commander, that would be confirmation for him, that his original idea (Meredith is cruel, maybe mad, but useful) was right. In this case, I do not expect too much change. I don't hate Cullen, and I know, he able to change his mind, but the Meredith's assassination would haven't help this process... And if Meredith already sent the request of Right of Annulment, if a mage kill the Knight Commander, more chance that the Divine accept the annulment...
|
|
inherit
Banshee
771
0
Sept 4, 2018 23:27:21 GMT
5,052
BansheeOwnage
I was called Ryder before it was cool... ...I'd love to, you know, be social and things.
1,231
August 2016
bansheeownage
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
11290
7428
|
Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 7, 2017 21:17:26 GMT
Don't forget the mabari Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. To be clear, I'm definitely not condoning their actions, I just view the situation as more tragic than anything else. Their methods are horrible, but their end goal is mage freedom, which is not. Anders thought the war was inevitable, so he gave it a kick-start (which isn't great logic, but there you go).
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 0:24:36 GMT
Even if the Chantry has killed more people than the Mage-Templar war has, how is that an argument for more killing? I'd especially like to know how that's an argument for more widespread killing. The problem is that in addition to the violence Anders disapproved of staying behind closed doors, it only had a very serious effect on a minority of the population. As I understand it, Cullen admits that if anything like a significant percentage of the population were mages, the Circles would be unworkable. (And as an aside I wouldn't be as concerned by the thought of potential abominations loose in a city if any mage that turned and started wrecking shit was guaranteed to have two or three mages in shouting distance of him.) Meanwhile the entire population felt the heat of the Mage-Templar war. And if mage freedom goes the way the Pro-Templars predict rather than the way Pro-Mages predict, the entire population could be feeling yet more heat for a while to come. The mage rebellion was justified if the deaths that result from that are fewer than the deaths that would have resulted from the situation continuing to work as it did. (The deaths that happened because of the system before the mage rebellion started are evidence of how many deaths would have resulted from the situation continuing, but they shouldn't be used to justify the rebellion in and of themselves because the mages who are already dead can't benefit from the rebellion or be further harmed by the system.) I don't like a lot of the way the situation worked before, but at least most of the heat was directed towards a small group. The mage rebellion resulted in a lot more heat towards that small group in the short term, plus a lot more heat towards everyone else. The new system is going to have to work really well to save more lives than creating it destroyed. And every time a mage who would otherwise have been in the Circles starts using magic to harm others, or goes abomination in a crowded area, the cost of making that slim minority's lives better grows. And it only gets worse when you consider that the mage rebels seem to have passed over at least one option that could have made things better for them without making things much worse for everyone else. Fiona never considers trying to insinuate herself into the Divine's confidence, and in fact says "Fuck the Divine" in so many words when the idea of trying to do appeal to her is raised. If Fiona had done otherwise, the Divine could have reined in the Templars and gotten Fiona much of what she wanted without a drop of mage blood, Templar blood, or mundane blood being spilled. By the same token I think Anders could have made the Gallows a much better place if he'd found a way to hit Meredith (but not Cullen) with the gaatlok bomb instead of Elthina. The sanest Templar in Kirkwall suddenly gets control of the system, and when Elthina and Orsino suggest reasonable ways of making the mages lives better he presumably listens. The system is suddenly improved for the slim minority who need to be subject to it, without cost to the vast majority it protects. The rebellion would not have spread, had there been no demand for it. There was an explosion and Fiona's reckless worlds. This would be enough for a war, if nobody interest? I suppose: not. That proves that a large number of people were willing to rebel. What does it prove about how justified they were? If this is an argument that Fiona was justified in not even trying to find ways to solve the problems mages faced in a way that wouldn't lead to war, I'm not seeing it. What I think is that violence should be minimized. A small group facing it is preferable to a big one facing it, barring some way to make sure neither does. You argue that the extreme violence of the war will eventually pay for itself in that regard because once it's over mages will no longer face violence for no reason other than their magic. The problem is that they face violence for that reason either inside or outside of the Circle. If some templars abuse mages for being mages, so do some peasants. And some mages can do violence without wanting to. It's been demonstrated that a mage can go abomination without even wanting to. Having them loose in the general population will certainly lead to violence, not least because every time a mage abuses his powers or goes abomination, everyone who survives sees one more reason to want to do violence to a mage before the mage does violence to them. We did. I don't recall you convincing me. I also recall even other pro-mages saying you weren't very convincing. We've seen the bad of the Circle system. The problem is that we also see the bad of at least one society that doesn't practice it: the Dalish seem to have at least one semi-major screwup in their way of handling mages per game. We also watch another society that doesn't practice it try to build a magical WMD to try to take out Orlais. I agree that the most dangerous mages seem to be the ones outside the Circles, but perhaps the solution is to make the Circles more compulsory rather than less? Certainly I don't see how having more mages outside the Circles solves that problem, and it can create a whole lot more of them. Update: Elthina's sin much more than ineffective or too patient (ridiculous!), she knew about Meredith's cruelty and violation of the law, she was Meredith's accomplice, willingly. Orsino wasn't a monster (okay, at end... literally), he was a slave. I didn't spoke about the civilians. They are victims of the Chantry, of the rebellion. Every war have victims. I think "patient" is the word here. Unless you think she wanted Meredith to do what she did. And you'll note that I'm pointing out she should have been less so, and that there's no word for Meredith other than "monster." Orsino aided and abetted a serial killer so that Meredith wouldn't come down on the mages. Said serial killer even got one of the Circle's mages, as I understand. Now here I am asking what you think the proper word for him is if it isn't "monster." The main reason I was bringing them up was on the off-chance that you were calling them "monsters" for not coming to the mages aid. But I'm a little disturbed by how blase you are about civilian casualties.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 1:01:01 GMT
Yes. Killing Meredith isn't matter too much. Cullen probably would more normal, than Meredith, but I'm not sure, if Anders kill her, Cullen wouldn't be a bit paranoid again: he have PTSD because of Uldred and other mages (in Kirkwall too). So: a mage (Abomination! – as they would call, if Anders lose his control) kill the Knight Commander, that would be confirmation for him, that his original idea (Meredith is cruel, maybe mad, but useful) was right. In this case, I do not expect too much change. I don't hate Cullen, and I know, he able to change his mind, but the Meredith's assassination would haven't help this process... And if Meredith already sent the request of Right of Annulment, if a mage kill the Knight Commander, more chance that the Divine accept the annulment... Yes, I agree if Anders kill Meredith the annulment would have come faster and the whats left of circle would be worse. When you talk to Cullen in DA2 he seemed to be recovering by what they did to him. At the end if you side with the templars Cullen backs away sort of giving Hawke respect even as a mage. Think he agreed at that point. Yes, Cullen agreed, at that point. Because he saw, that Meredith, a Templar, can became a monster (some kind "abomination"), just as a mage, and she don't protect the people, rather hurt people. (He respected Meredith before, he knew, that Meredith's methods are cruel, but he don't want to believe, that Meredith mad. "She needs a spine of iron to survive her position" – or something similar. Hawke can speak with him about it). But I'm not sure, that if Meredith's "performance" couldn't happen, because Anders kill her, Cullen would be able to back away. As I see.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 1:37:20 GMT
That proves that a large number of people were willing to rebel. What does it prove about how justified they were? If this is an argument that Fiona was justified in not even trying to find ways to solve the problems mages faced in a way that wouldn't lead to war, I'm not seeing it. What I think is that violence should be minimized. A small group facing it is preferable to a big one facing it, barring some way to make sure neither does. You argue that the extreme violence of the war will eventually pay for itself in that regard because once it's over mages will no longer face violence for no reason other than their magic. The problem is that they face violence for that reason either inside or outside of the Circle. If some templars abuse mages for being mages, so do some peasants. And some mages can do violence without wanting to. It's been demonstrated that a mage can go abomination without even wanting to. Having them loose in the general population will certainly lead to violence, not least because every time a mage abuses his powers or goes abomination, everyone who survives sees one more reason to want to do violence to a mage before the mage does violence to them. We did. I don't recall you convincing me. I also recall even other pro-mages saying you weren't very convincing. We've seen the bad of the Circle system. The problem is that we also see the bad of at least one society that doesn't practice it: the Dalish seem to have at least one semi-major screwup in their way of handling mages per game. We also watch another society that doesn't practice it try to build a magical WMD to try to take out Orlais. I agree that the most dangerous mages seem to be the ones outside the Circles, but perhaps the solution is to make the Circles more compulsory rather than less? Certainly I don't see how having more mages outside the Circles solves that problem, and it can create a whole lot more of them. Update: Elthina's sin much more than ineffective or too patient (ridiculous!), she knew about Meredith's cruelty and violation of the law, she was Meredith's accomplice, willingly. Orsino wasn't a monster (okay, at end... literally), he was a slave. I didn't spoke about the civilians. They are victims of the Chantry, of the rebellion. Every war have victims. I think "patient" is the word here. Unless you think she wanted Meredith to do what she did. And you'll note that I'm pointing out she should have been less so, and that there's no word for Meredith other than "monster." Orsino aided and abetted a serial killer so that Meredith wouldn't come down on the mages. Said serial killer even got one of the Circle's mages, as I understand. Now here I am asking what you think the proper word for him is if it isn't "monster." The main reason I was bringing them up was on the off-chance that you were calling them "monsters" for not coming to the mages aid. But I'm a little disturbed by how blase you are about civilian casualties. 1. Yes, as I see, this justified the meaning of existence of the rebellion. 2. Violence should be minimized. Haha. Everyone want this. But: if the mayority can't see the minority's suffer, then the minority will shows that. What a surprise! often happen... 3. I said the solution. But you probably forget. Okay, again: education (yes, obligatory), effective police (seekers with mages, ofc), registration (phylactery-system, it's exist...) The Circles still exist, as education centers, libraries, training centers, and a safe place, where the mages can exchange ideas. Yes, I think too, that many Mages want to live there. From their free will. 4. Let's be bona fide! Elthina probably don't wanted anything just eternity. But in her position this blindness is a big ugly sin. Orsino don't knew, that Quentin a serial killer. Oh, shit, again, this is boring to write always... He was responsible, that he wasn't really loyal to the Circle, but why would be loyal a prisoner to the prison? This is illogical... I don't understand. I'm blase about civilian casualites? You think, if I now cry, then the civilians will not dies in the war anymore? The freedom is not easy, the people need to learn to live together (Bethany at Gallows). Simple. The life is dangerous. (I don't do it so often, but there are an IRL example: you think, a plane crash is not dangerous? Bus accidents can always happen. Appartman fires... etc. Horribile accidents everywhere.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
197
0
Apr 26, 2024 19:16:17 GMT
Deleted
0
Apr 26, 2024 19:16:17 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 1:52:48 GMT
Why does every conversion have to end in dicussions about how oh-woozy me bad the circle is?
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 2:09:38 GMT
That proves that a large number of people were willing to rebel. What does it prove about how justified they were? If this is an argument that Fiona was justified in not even trying to find ways to solve the problems mages faced in a way that wouldn't lead to war, I'm not seeing it. What I think is that violence should be minimized. A small group facing it is preferable to a big one facing it, barring some way to make sure neither does. You argue that the extreme violence of the war will eventually pay for itself in that regard because once it's over mages will no longer face violence for no reason other than their magic. The problem is that they face violence for that reason either inside or outside of the Circle. If some templars abuse mages for being mages, so do some peasants. And some mages can do violence without wanting to. It's been demonstrated that a mage can go abomination without even wanting to. Having them loose in the general population will certainly lead to violence, not least because every time a mage abuses his powers or goes abomination, everyone who survives sees one more reason to want to do violence to a mage before the mage does violence to them. We did. I don't recall you convincing me. I also recall even other pro-mages saying you weren't very convincing. We've seen the bad of the Circle system. The problem is that we also see the bad of at least one society that doesn't practice it: the Dalish seem to have at least one semi-major screwup in their way of handling mages per game. We also watch another society that doesn't practice it try to build a magical WMD to try to take out Orlais. I agree that the most dangerous mages seem to be the ones outside the Circles, but perhaps the solution is to make the Circles more compulsory rather than less? Certainly I don't see how having more mages outside the Circles solves that problem, and it can create a whole lot more of them. I think "patient" is the word here. Unless you think she wanted Meredith to do what she did. And you'll note that I'm pointing out she should have been less so, and that there's no word for Meredith other than "monster." Orsino aided and abetted a serial killer so that Meredith wouldn't come down on the mages. Said serial killer even got one of the Circle's mages, as I understand. Now here I am asking what you think the proper word for him is if it isn't "monster." The main reason I was bringing them up was on the off-chance that you were calling them "monsters" for not coming to the mages aid. But I'm a little disturbed by how blase you are about civilian casualties. 1. Yes, as I see, this justified the meaning of existence of the rebellion. You think that a large number of mages wanting to rebel is evidence that they were justified? I'm not so sure. It seems to be that it could also be explained by a lot of mages wanting to rebel without caring whether or not they're justified, and a whole bunch more feeling rather than thinking that they were justified. And I don't see how any of this justified Fiona's complete non-effort to find ways to solve this without violence. I don't think you actually answered any of what I said about how your endgame doesn't really minimize violence, though, and how it comes at the cost of a hell of a lot more of it in the short term. Effective police is already being tried. When Meredith's sister went abomination, it apparently happened with Templars right nearby. Seventy people died anyway, including Meredith's parents. That helps, but even with this plus the Circles, accidents happen. And the registration already exists too. When it comes right down to it you're not arguing for replacing the system so much as weakening it. He knew that Quentin was looking into necromancy, that the typical funerary rite in his setting was cremation, and that part of the reason for that is to prevent necromancy. Even assuming Quentin never told him where the bodies came from, why did Orsino not wonder? And this resulted in the death of one of the Circle's mages. Whether or not he liked the Circle, his job was to protect the mages inside it. What he did instead was give Meredith more reason to think of mages as dangerous, without giving her a counternarrative to the effect that there were helpful ones, and as a side benefit let one of the mages Meredith hated die. I think it's a problem that you don't even seem to care that the Mage-Templar War resulted in them. I think you're treating the helpless mundanes the same way you accuse me of treating the mages. Why? Why do the mundane civilians need to learn to live with people who can turn abomination on them at basically any point? Yeah, but we try to avoid all those things. We've made flying less dangerous than driving, we set up a lot of infrastructure to make it easier to survive a bus accident, and we put a whole lot of effort into making apartments less flammable. A whole bunch of disasters that can happen in our world, that we try to prevent happening, don't really support putting less effort into stopping this kind of disaster.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 2:33:32 GMT
1. Yes, as I see, this justified the meaning of existence of the rebellion. Effective police is already being tried. When Meredith's sister went abomination, it apparently happened with Templars right nearby. Seventy people died anyway, including Meredith's parents. That helps, but even with this plus the Circles, accidents happen. And the registration already exists too. When it comes right down to it you're not arguing for replacing the system so much as weakening it. I think it's a problem that you don't even seem to care that the Mage-Templar War resulted in them. I think you're treating the helpless mundanes the same way you accuse me of treating the mages. Why? Why do the mundane civilians need to learn to live with people who can turn abomination on them at basically any point? Yeah, but we try to avoid all those things. We've made flying less dangerous than driving, we set up a lot of infrastructure to make it easier to survive a bus accident, and we put a whole lot of effort into making apartments less flammable. A whole bunch of disasters that can happen in our world, that we try to prevent happening, don't really support putting less effort into stopping this kind of disaster. 1. You see? Accidents can also happen when the prison-Circle is exist. If school/college-Circle had existed, I'm sure, that her parents have been sent their girl to learn/train. So simple. 2. The difference is that civilians are free. And that I don't think, they deserved punisment because of existence. 3. Because they are not Abominations. They are people. 4. Education, police, registration. These are all infrastructures.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 2:33:49 GMT
Why does every conversion have to end in dicussions about how oh-woozy me bad the circle is? BSN gon' BSN to the very end. Or maybe past the very end. Back on topic: I think I agree that there's no real reason to believe Hawke would know much about alchemy, so they probably wouldn't know what the ingredients do. But that's not the same as saying that they couldn't have figured out what was going on. As I understand it Anders lets slip that the ingredients are used by the Tevinters. That leads to the idea that Fenris might have known what they do. Maybe Fenris's only answer would be "the magisters never told me," but I've never heard that you even have the option to ask. I got this idea from a fanfic novelization/parody of the game called An Apostate? Me? where Hawke manages to figure out what the plan is before the conversation with Elthina, but goes along with it out of a combination of emotional blackmail (she's romancing Anders) and denial that Anders would really do something that serious. (She's happy to kill Templars, but deliberately killing Elthina in a way that promises collateral damage is too far for her.) Anyway, I'd recommend the fic. (If you don't want to read the whole thing, but want to read this part, it's the chapter called "Anders' Blatant Lies.")
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 2:46:21 GMT
Effective police is already being tried. When Meredith's sister went abomination, it apparently happened with Templars right nearby. Seventy people died anyway, including Meredith's parents. That helps, but even with this plus the Circles, accidents happen. And the registration already exists too. When it comes right down to it you're not arguing for replacing the system so much as weakening it. I think it's a problem that you don't even seem to care that the Mage-Templar War resulted in them. I think you're treating the helpless mundanes the same way you accuse me of treating the mages. Why? Why do the mundane civilians need to learn to live with people who can turn abomination on them at basically any point? Yeah, but we try to avoid all those things. We've made flying less dangerous than driving, we set up a lot of infrastructure to make it easier to survive a bus accident, and we put a whole lot of effort into making apartments less flammable. A whole bunch of disasters that can happen in our world, that we try to prevent happening, don't really support putting less effort into stopping this kind of disaster. 1. You see? Accidents can also happen when the prison-Circle is exist. If school/college-Circle had existed, I'm sure, that her parents have been sent their girl to learn/train. So simple. Are you? Because as I understand it Meredith's parents kept Amelia from the Templars because they didn't think she'd survive in the Circle. A school-Circle would still probably have to do a lot of the things they didn't think Amelia would survive, at least until she passed the Harrowing (which I don't think Amelia's parents thought she could do.) And the people who get sick with something nasty don't deserve to be punished for it. But they're still put into quarantines, because the average civilian doesn't deserve to be exposed to whatever they've got. People have the right to freedom. They also have the right to some modicum of safety. Rights conflict. When they do, we have to choose. I'd like a double-helping of the right not to be eaten by a monster. They are people who can turn into abominations against which the average person is unable to effectively defend themselves. If the Warden isn't present at Redcliffe, one abomination takes out an entire village defended by a small force of knights. Mages are people, but so are the mundanes who can't defend themselves from a mage who snaps. Yes, and they aren't enough.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 3:02:44 GMT
1. You see? Accidents can also happen when the prison-Circle is exist. If school/college-Circle had existed, I'm sure, that her parents have been sent their girl to learn/train. So simple. Are you? Because as I understand it Meredith's parents kept Amelia from the Templars because they didn't think she'd survive in the Circle. A school-Circle would still probably have to do a lot of the things they didn't think Amelia would survive, at least until she passed the Harrowing (which I don't think Amelia's parents thought she could do.) And the people who get sick with something nasty don't deserve to be punished for it. But they're still put into quarantines, because the average civilian doesn't deserve to be exposed to whatever they've got. People have the right to freedom. They also have the right to some modicum of safety. Rights conflict. When they do, we have to choose. I'd like a double-helping of the right not to be eaten by a monster. They are people who can turn into abominations against which the average person is unable to effectively defend themselves. If the Warden isn't present at Redcliffe, one abomination takes out an entire village defended by a small force of knights. Mages are people, but so are the mundanes who can't defend themselves from a mage who snaps. Yes, and they aren't enough. Sentenced to life imprisonment = /= school. Quarantines aren't life imprisonment, only temporary. Mages =/= shick people. If school/college-Circle had existed, I'm sure, that his parents have been sent their boy to learn/train. So simple. They are enough.
|
|
jackrabbit
N2
Flammable! ...Or inflammable? Forget which- doesn't matter!
Posts: 78 Likes: 89
inherit
2387
0
89
jackrabbit
Flammable! ...Or inflammable? Forget which- doesn't matter!
78
December 2016
jackrabbit
|
Post by jackrabbit on Jan 8, 2017 3:07:52 GMT
I just want to say that, first of all... I'm really awed by the sheer fan devotion of you guys and gals to the lore. I don't mean that in a condescending way. This is genuinely impressive and I think it's awesome that DA has such hardcore fans. I'd like however to offer my thoughts on the Circle and Templars in general.
It seems to me that the Circle is, at best, a flawed system that's unsustainable. I understand that people like Wynne and Vivienne thrived within the structure of this environment but it's really obviously flawed given all the testimonies we hear from current and former mages over the course of the series. I'm sure I don't need to emphasize the abuses that circle mages suffered on a regular basis. Physical abuse, emotional abuse- potentially even sexual abuse? It's obvious that the Templars have gotten out of control. Any watchmen without oversight will indulge in the worst transgressions.
All that being said, it's also obvious that the Chantry has a point. Demons do specifically target magi and unprepared mages can indeed be corrupted and turned into vessels for demons.
I find the events of DA2 and DAI to be most interesting in this regard. In DAI we learn that spirits which are dragged out of the fade or otherwise denied their inherent purpose become demons. This informs the conflict that takes place within Anders in DA2. He is a vessel for, alternately depending on playstyle, Vengeance or Justice.
Mages (magi?) in the Dragon Age universe do present an inherent problem but the resolution to that problem is a question of individual freedom versus an overarching danger to society. The games do a good job of displaying both extremes. However, given that in DA:O most renegade mages seem capable of controlling themselves (to the extent that they form a sort of organization and can contract the PC to perform tasks for them) I have to error on the side of individual freedom. To this end I find it very foolish that the Templars and Chantry continue to attempt to exercise their authority on all mages to the point of potential execution. As I see it, the events of DA:I lay the groundwork for, at the very least, an entirely new and potentially self-organized mage order. I think Vivienne is foolish and hopelessly clings to the old order simply because she's familiar with such a structure and it personally benefits her. I also think that despite the terrible example of Tevinter the mages of Ferelden/Orlais can form a new order that can self-govern and avoid the excesses of a magic-led government. (A thaumocracy? Not sure.)
Not really going anywhere in particular with this, just wondering what peoples' thoughts on this may be.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jan 8, 2017 3:09:17 GMT
Are you? Because as I understand it Meredith's parents kept Amelia from the Templars because they didn't think she'd survive in the Circle. A school-Circle would still probably have to do a lot of the things they didn't think Amelia would survive, at least until she passed the Harrowing (which I don't think Amelia's parents thought she could do.) And the people who get sick with something nasty don't deserve to be punished for it. But they're still put into quarantines, because the average civilian doesn't deserve to be exposed to whatever they've got. People have the right to freedom. They also have the right to some modicum of safety. Rights conflict. When they do, we have to choose. I'd like a double-helping of the right not to be eaten by a monster. They are people who can turn into abominations against which the average person is unable to effectively defend themselves. If the Warden isn't present at Redcliffe, one abomination takes out an entire village defended by a small force of knights. Mages are people, but so are the mundanes who can't defend themselves from a mage who snaps. Yes, and they aren't enough. Sentenced to life imprisonment = /= school. Quarantines aren't life imprisonment, inly temporary. Mages =/= shick people. If school/college-Circle had existed, I'm sure, that his parents have been sent their boy to learn/train. So simple. They are enough. 1: That post =/= an answer to my specific objection to your post. 2: Sick people aren't permanently dangerous. 3: And then he could have gone abomination later. One important thing to bear in mind is that abominationing can happen to any mage. It's just less likely when the mage is trained. 4: Are they? I've already pointed out that what you're suggesting isn't a replacement to what already exists. The stuff you're suggesting already exists, and in addition to that the mages who are caught are sequestered. Abominations still happen. You're not so much replacing the current system as weakening it, and it's already not as strong as it should be.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 8, 2017 6:52:57 GMT
I'm no grand scientific expert, but I do know enough about chemistry that when he was describing what he needed for his "potion", I should have stopped and thought, "wait a second, this sounds more like the elements of gunpowder!" Aside from the Qunari who have both Gaatlok and cannons, followed by the Dwarves of Orzammar who have developed small shaped charges, no-one else in Thedas has developed technologically to the point of mastering gunpowder. The lack of advanced explosives is part of the reason why ballistas, catapults and trebuchets still are the primary means of long-range artillery for armies in Thedas. We've seen them utilised in most of the battles we've witnessed or taken part in, from Ostagar, the Denerim, the Amaranthine, Haven, the Exalted Plains, Adamant Fortress... and so on. Awakening and DA2 showed that the Qunari guard the knowledge carefully, to the extent that they set a trap in DA2 with Saar-Qamek to try to dissuade would-be thieves from further attempts, as well as being rumoured in the epilogue of Awakening to have sent assassins after Dworkin when he got close to cracking the formula. Another possible reason for the lack of progress is due to the Blights every few centuries, that either wipe away any advancements that have been made or force societies to instead focus on recovery from near-annihilation. But it seems the primary reason for the lack of pursuit in this field is as Hawke points out in DA2; "Why bother when we have magic that can do the same thing?"
Since the Dwarves and the Qunari either don't have magic or actively try to avoid it altogether, it does explain why they were the first groups in Thedas to develop explosives, because they aren't as overdependent on magic as everyone else. So yeah... while we might recognise that it's gunpowder because the formula has become relatively common knowledge in our world, most of the people of Thedas wouldn't know what those ingredients were or how they were meant to be used. It'd be no different than handing Hawke a computer and expecting them to know if it stops working, they should try hitting Ctrl-Alt-Del or turning it off and on again... common knowledge that's so ingrained in most people that's become an automatic reflex? I agree with the 2nd point you made about magic. The Blights cannot be the cause of the slow scientifical advancement in Thedas,because 3 blights (3rd,4th,5th)did not lasted for long.
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Jan 8, 2017 13:45:08 GMT
The end justifies the means if the end is beneficial in a long scale. But I don't see how mages are going to achieve anything except more enemies, death and if the rebellion is successful through bloodshed and mages have complete freedom, even more people who have disdain towards mages and fear them.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 14:49:52 GMT
The end justifies the means if the end is beneficial in a long scale. But I don't see how mages are going to achieve anything except more enemies, death and if the rebellion is successful through bloodshed and mages have complete freedom, even more people who have disdain towards mages and fear them. You're right. But this probably was expectable, but this is a process, and not so quick process, after the 1000 years practice and innervation. Also Anders was not sure about the quick result: "Ten years, a hundred years from now…" This rebellion was a chance for the change. The result never sure, nobody can see the future. Probably in this moment seems wasted, but something started on the ruins. Never will be same as before. This change seems little, but I'm not sure about it: the Circles are changed (all Divine will change the practice somehow), the templars' state will be change. Baby steps? I think not. Disappointing? Yes... a bit. But I can see some logic behind this madness: this people (circle mages) wasn't completely ready for the life outside the Circle. Let's free a puppy age trapped beast as adult: if it survive, its puppies will already know what to do. The life hard to the freed animals? Yes, but this not means, that these animals need the cage. The freedom is hard, but finally worth it.
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Jan 8, 2017 15:21:44 GMT
The end justifies the means if the end is beneficial in a long scale. But I don't see how mages are going to achieve anything except more enemies, death and if the rebellion is successful through bloodshed and mages have complete freedom, even more people who have disdain towards mages and fear them. You're right. But this probably was expectable, but this is a process, and not so quick process, after the 1000 years practice and innervation. Also Anders was not sure about the quick result: "Ten years, a hundred years from now…" This rebellion was a chance for the change. The result never sure, nobody can see the future. Probably in this moment seems wasted, but something started on the ruins. Never will be same as before. This change seems little, but I'm not sure about it: the Circles are changed (all Divine will change the practice somehow), the templars' state will be change. Baby steps? I think not. Disappointing? Yes... a bit. But I can see some logic behind this madness: this people (circle mages) wasn't completely ready for the life outside the Circle. Let's free a puppy age trapped beast as adult: if it survive, its puppies will already know what to do. The life hard to the freed animals? Yes, but this not means, that these animals need the cage. The freedom is hard, but finally worth it. Way too big of a gamble, the mage rebellion. Everyone is spilling blood for a possibility of a better future for mages, but despite that, we don't know what's going to happen, and that uncertainty will cost lives of MANY. The problem is that the mage rebellion isn't an organized rebellion, it's just mages lashing out in anger right now FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN. People are rebelling blindly, driven by an incredibly optimistic dream of complete mage freedom, having a goal that is so far off in the distance that needs more than just dead templars, but a complete revamp in many societies and cultures on how mages are seen. That kind of change is not done just by killing. Or wait, maybe it is, but that comes with a cost of more and more civilians seeing mages as fearsome, ruthless demons who are driven by their own selfishness, and siding with Templars. I could feel sympathy towards mage rebellion and even side with them, if they were a legitimate group of individuals pushing for freedom in peaceful methods (if they can). I don't believe in fighting fire with fire, or at least using that as your ONLY METHOD to rebel and make change. That makes you as bad as the ones who once oppressed you. No matter how hard you are pushed, if your only method is to push back, then you become the demon that you once hated. ESPECIALLY if you are pushing two times harder back. There's no escaping it. The only real voice of reason, power player in the mage rebellion is the Divine, and since she can be one of three, I'm not sure how great her influence will be in the future games, since there are three different routes to go with.. The rebellion needs voices of reason, some influential leaders who don't just want mage freedom, but a better future for Thedas. One who fights for mages, but doesn't fight templars. One who wants unity, rather than a war. But alas, there are no people like that stepping up in the rebellion as it is (outside of softened Leliana, but since she is only one option in DA:I, I'm not sure how big her influence can be in the story line) and that speaks volumes about the rebellion. Though a reminder, Templars have their own problems and need to get their shit together for sure. I'm purely speaking about my thoughts through the lens of a civilian, someone who is caught in the freaking middle with everyone else.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 16:31:17 GMT
You're right. But this probably was expectable, but this is a process, and not so quick process, after the 1000 years practice and innervation. Also Anders was not sure about the quick result: "Ten years, a hundred years from now…" This rebellion was a chance for the change. The result never sure, nobody can see the future. Probably in this moment seems wasted, but something started on the ruins. Never will be same as before. This change seems little, but I'm not sure about it: the Circles are changed (all Divine will change the practice somehow), the templars' state will be change. Baby steps? I think not. Disappointing? Yes... a bit. But I can see some logic behind this madness: this people (circle mages) wasn't completely ready for the life outside the Circle. Let's free a puppy age trapped beast as adult: if it survive, its puppies will already know what to do. The life hard to the freed animals? Yes, but this not means, that these animals need the cage. The freedom is hard, but finally worth it. Way too big of a gamble, the mage rebellion. Everyone is spilling blood for a possibility of a better future for mages, but despite that, we don't know what's going to happen, and that uncertainty will cost lives of MANY. The problem is that the mage rebellion isn't an organized rebellion, it's just mages lashing out in anger right now FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN. People are rebelling blindly, driven by an incredibly optimistic dream of complete mage freedom, having a goal that is so far off in the distance that needs more than just dead templars, but a complete revamp in many societies and cultures on how mages are seen. That kind of change is not done just by killing. Or wait, maybe it is, but that comes with a cost of more and more civilians seeing mages as fearsome, ruthless demons who are driven by their own selfishness, and siding with Templars. I could feel sympathy towards mage rebellion and even side with them, if they were a legitimate group of individuals pushing for freedom in peaceful methods (if they can). I don't believe in fighting fire with fire, or at least using that as your ONLY METHOD to rebel and make change. That makes you as bad as the ones who once oppressed you. No matter how hard you are pushed, if your only method is to push back, then you become the demon that you once hated. ESPECIALLY if you are pushing two times harder back. There's no escaping it. The only real voice of reason, power player in the mage rebellion is the Divine, and since she can be one of three, I'm not sure how great her influence will be in the future games, since there are three different routes to go with.. The rebellion needs voices of reason, some influential leaders who don't just want mage freedom, but a better future for Thedas. One who fights for mages, but doesn't fight templars. One who wants unity, rather than a war. But alas, there are no people like that stepping up in the rebellion as it is (outside of softened Leliana, but since she is only one option in DA:I, I'm not sure how big her influence can be in the story line) and that speaks volumes about the rebellion. Though a reminder, Templars have their own problems and need to get their shit together for sure. I'm purely speaking about my thoughts through the lens of a civilian, someone who is caught in the freaking middle with everyone else. The rebellions rarely organized, and often start from despair and anger. This is a final solution. But in any case it draws attention that the old practice should not continue. There are situation, when it's necessary. Can justified by an infinitely long practice (1000 years innervation, supported by religion), for example. In DA2 I don't see any way out, the situation, what did getting worse after DAO, but even in DAO the Circle was unacceptable for me (I started the game years ago with a Surana). Someone who in the situation, rarely can see, what happen in the background, especially if this is secret. So we know, that Justinia wanted to do something what help to the mages, but neither Hawke, nor Anders don't know about it (except the Exalted March, that seems not too good...) The situation in Kirkwall seems terrible, there are no peaceful solution. (The picture similar in the templar's viewpoint: the wo/man see a bunch of bloody idiot blood mages with demons, I think, if not the first, but probably second idea will an annulment...) The templars another problem, what need to be remedied. I'm with them. I think, the Templars also the victims of the Circle-system, of the Chantry. And: my protagonists never anti-Andrastian, rather critical (by the way, Anders have similar aspect about Andrastianism). About the civilians in middle: they are the (probably) majority, who always fucked by wars. No exceptions. They have three choice: to pick a side and fight, don't pick a side, and fight for their own life, try to escape. I know, this seems a blase standpoint, but rather the reality. I like the revolution way, because in my viewpoint this is a (bloody) chance of the better (or at least other) future of Thedas. We dont know at the minute, that this blind hope where leads, but the actual situation is wrong, this is not a question, and there is no sign of a positive change. I tryed to play as "neutral", but that was so uncomfortable.
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Jan 8, 2017 16:42:04 GMT
Way too big of a gamble, the mage rebellion. Everyone is spilling blood for a possibility of a better future for mages, but despite that, we don't know what's going to happen, and that uncertainty will cost lives of MANY. The problem is that the mage rebellion isn't an organized rebellion, it's just mages lashing out in anger right now FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN. People are rebelling blindly, driven by an incredibly optimistic dream of complete mage freedom, having a goal that is so far off in the distance that needs more than just dead templars, but a complete revamp in many societies and cultures on how mages are seen. That kind of change is not done just by killing. Or wait, maybe it is, but that comes with a cost of more and more civilians seeing mages as fearsome, ruthless demons who are driven by their own selfishness, and siding with Templars. I could feel sympathy towards mage rebellion and even side with them, if they were a legitimate group of individuals pushing for freedom in peaceful methods (if they can). I don't believe in fighting fire with fire, or at least using that as your ONLY METHOD to rebel and make change. That makes you as bad as the ones who once oppressed you. No matter how hard you are pushed, if your only method is to push back, then you become the demon that you once hated. ESPECIALLY if you are pushing two times harder back. There's no escaping it. The only real voice of reason, power player in the mage rebellion is the Divine, and since she can be one of three, I'm not sure how great her influence will be in the future games, since there are three different routes to go with.. The rebellion needs voices of reason, some influential leaders who don't just want mage freedom, but a better future for Thedas. One who fights for mages, but doesn't fight templars. One who wants unity, rather than a war. But alas, there are no people like that stepping up in the rebellion as it is (outside of softened Leliana, but since she is only one option in DA:I, I'm not sure how big her influence can be in the story line) and that speaks volumes about the rebellion. Though a reminder, Templars have their own problems and need to get their shit together for sure. I'm purely speaking about my thoughts through the lens of a civilian, someone who is caught in the freaking middle with everyone else. The rebellions rarely organized, and often start from despair and anger. This is a final solution. But in any case it draws attention that the old practice should not continue. There are situation, when it's necessary. Can justified by a an infinitely long practice (1000 years innervation, supported by religion), for example. In DA2 I don't see any way out, the situation, what did getting worse after DAO, but even in DAO the Circle was unacceptable for me (I started the game years ago with a Surana). Someone who in the situation, rarely can see, what happen in the background, especially if this is secret. So we know, that Justinia wanted to do something what help to the mages, but neither Hawke, nor Anders don't know about it (except the Exalted March, that seems not too good...) The situation in Kirkwall seems terrible, there are no peaceful solution. (The picture similar in the templar's viewpoint: the wo/man see a bunch of bloody idiot blood mages with demons, I think, if not the first, but probably second idea will an annulment...) The templars another problem, what need to be remedied. I'm with them. I think, the Templars also the victims of the Circle-system, of the Chantry. And: my protagonists never anti-Andrastian, rather critical (by the way, Anders have similar aspect about Andrastianism). About the civilians in middle: they are the (probably) majority, who always fucked by wars. No exceptions. They have three choice: to pick a side and fight, don't pick a side, and fight for their own life, try to escape. I know, this seems a blase standpoint, but rather the reality. I like the revolution way, because in my viewpoint this is a (bloody) chance of the better (or at least other) future of Thedas. We dont know at the minute, that this blind hope where leads, but the actual situation is wrong, this is not a question, and and there is no sign of a positive change. I tryed to play as "neutral", but that was so uncomfortable. It's almost as if you put the lives and happiness of mages above anyone elses. '' Oh well, people will die, but at least the mages will be free and happy and their violence is justified '' seems to be your train of thought in most cases. As it stands, I stand with civilians and condemn the rebellion of mages if it heats up to something that's going to risk the lives of people who have no part in it. That's a pretty sensible approach to me.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 17:13:48 GMT
The rebellions rarely organized, and often start from despair and anger. This is a final solution. But in any case it draws attention that the old practice should not continue. There are situation, when it's necessary. Can justified by a an infinitely long practice (1000 years innervation, supported by religion), for example. In DA2 I don't see any way out, the situation, what did getting worse after DAO, but even in DAO the Circle was unacceptable for me (I started the game years ago with a Surana). Someone who in the situation, rarely can see, what happen in the background, especially if this is secret. So we know, that Justinia wanted to do something what help to the mages, but neither Hawke, nor Anders don't know about it (except the Exalted March, that seems not too good...) The situation in Kirkwall seems terrible, there are no peaceful solution. (The picture similar in the templar's viewpoint: the wo/man see a bunch of bloody idiot blood mages with demons, I think, if not the first, but probably second idea will an annulment...) The templars another problem, what need to be remedied. I'm with them. I think, the Templars also the victims of the Circle-system, of the Chantry. And: my protagonists never anti-Andrastian, rather critical (by the way, Anders have similar aspect about Andrastianism). About the civilians in middle: they are the (probably) majority, who always fucked by wars. No exceptions. They have three choice: to pick a side and fight, don't pick a side, and fight for their own life, try to escape. I know, this seems a blase standpoint, but rather the reality. I like the revolution way, because in my viewpoint this is a (bloody) chance of the better (or at least other) future of Thedas. We dont know at the minute, that this blind hope where leads, but the actual situation is wrong, this is not a question, and and there is no sign of a positive change. I tryed to play as "neutral", but that was so uncomfortable. It's almost as if you put the lives and happiness of mages above anyone elses. '' Oh well, people will die, but at least the mages will be free and happy and their violence is justified '' seems to be your train of thought in most cases. As it stands, I stand with civilians and condemn the rebellion of mages if it heats up to something that's going to risk the lives of people who have no part in it. That's a pretty sensible approach to me. The problem with the neutrality is: the civilians are satisfied, up to the moment, when they picked by anyone and get a stigma, or for example: accidentally they to be having mage children. The "neutrality" won't help. And yes: the mages cares about their own fate. This is selfishness? Probably yes. The neutrals also care about only their life, but this is not selfishness, because they are the majority? The civilians rarely care about, what happen behind the close doors, covered by law, because this is a very comfortable viewpoint. And understandable. Not really "right" viewpoint but still. As I said: this comfortable viewpoint sustainable as long as you are not involved. And after? Who will help?
|
|
inherit
1439
0
Apr 19, 2024 21:21:07 GMT
12,447
witchcocktor
4,032
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by witchcocktor on Jan 8, 2017 17:24:19 GMT
It's almost as if you put the lives and happiness of mages above anyone elses. '' Oh well, people will die, but at least the mages will be free and happy and their violence is justified '' seems to be your train of thought in most cases. As it stands, I stand with civilians and condemn the rebellion of mages if it heats up to something that's going to risk the lives of people who have no part in it. That's a pretty sensible approach to me. The problem with the neutrality is: the civilians are satisfied, up to the moment, when they picked by anyone and get a stigma, or for example: accidentally they to be having mage children. The "neutrality" won't help. And yes: the mages cares about their own fate. This is selfishness? Probably yes. The neutrals also care about only their life, but this is not selfishness, because they are the majority? The civilians rarely care about, what happen behind the close doors, covered by law, because this is a very comfortable viewpoint. And understandable. Not really "right" viewpoint but still. As I said: this comfortable viewpoint sustainable as long as you are not involved. And after? Who will help? So I'm guessing that's a yes for mages being more important than other people? Yeah, sorry, I can't get behind the mindset of '' oppressed minorities can do whatever they want to reach their goal, even if it costs live of those not involved in their battle. '' Let's agree to disagree.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Jan 8, 2017 17:25:46 GMT
It seems the argument you two are having is a major difference of philosophy.
I only know the name of one side of this argument, though, which is Utilitarianism.
One could debate that the temporary suffering of the many will elevate society to a better form, making the "many" of the future better.
We are limited to the writing of the game however. I agree that the Rebellion was not even close to organized, and if the Divine hadn't ticked off the Templars it would have ended so quickly as to be a footnote in Thedas History.
But the OP was whether or not we as Players or Hawke should have noticed sooner and, as always, it has turned into an Anders debate. And since he is the front man of the Rebellion, that has come up too.
I didn't notice. I should have broke up with him for being a douche about the Chantry mission.
And Hawke is never allowed to notice as far as I can tell, just be suspicious.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 17:47:24 GMT
The problem with the neutrality is: the civilians are satisfied, up to the moment, when they picked by anyone and get a stigma, or for example: accidentally they to be having mage children. The "neutrality" won't help. And yes: the mages cares about their own fate. This is selfishness? Probably yes. The neutrals also care about only their life, but this is not selfishness, because they are the majority? The civilians rarely care about, what happen behind the close doors, covered by law, because this is a very comfortable viewpoint. And understandable. Not really "right" viewpoint but still. As I said: this comfortable viewpoint sustainable as long as you are not involved. And after? Who will help? So I'm guessing that's a yes for mages being more important than other people? Yeah, sorry, I can't get behind the mindset of '' oppressed minorities can do whatever they want to reach their goal, even if it costs live of those not involved in their battle. '' Let's agree to disagree. Yes. But I'm not for "oppressed minorities can do whatever they want to reach their goal, even if it costs live of those not involved in their battle". Of course, this depend on the goal: the freedom for innocents isn't some kind extreme stuff, this is basic. For freedom they will do anything. It's inevitable, sooner or later. And mostly bloody. The people need REAL law and order to awoid it. Consistently and for everyone. This is the real safety. And this is, why worth it for the majority as well. There are no "more or less important" people. Only people. No "mage freedom", only freedom.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Jan 8, 2017 18:18:27 GMT
It seems the argument you two are having is a major difference of philosophy. I only know the name of one side of this argument, though, which is Utilitarianism. One could debate that the temporary suffering of the many will elevate society to a better form, making the "many" of the future better. We are limited to the writing of the game however. I agree that the Rebellion was not even close to organized, and if the Divine hadn't ticked off the Templars it would have ended so quickly as to be a footnote in Thedas History. But the OP was whether or not we as Players or Hawke should have noticed sooner and, as always, it has turned into an Anders debate. And since he is the front man of the Rebellion, that has come up too.
I didn't notice. I should have broke up with him for being a douche about the Chantry mission. And Hawke is never allowed to notice as far as I can tell, just be suspicious. Haha, but i'm now innocent, not I was, who have started the debate! I tryed to be neutral... but I'm not so good in this.
|
|
Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
inherit
Agent 46
177
0
Apr 26, 2024 18:58:25 GMT
6,651
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,671
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
|
Post by Gileadan on Jan 8, 2017 19:43:57 GMT
As a player, the ingredients were obvious to me. I found it pretty odd too, since the game had made such an effort to tell me that only the qunari knew how to make blackpowder (which I assume their gaatlok is). The ingredients were not for the lyrium bombs that we saw in Awakening, so I still wonder how Anders knew what he was doing. I've referred to his explosive device as the "plothole bomb" ever since.
Like the inability to tell Momma Hawke to be careful on Tinder, being unable to stop Anders is one of those moments were DA2 just forces you to stay along for the ride for the sake of drama. BioWare just like doing that, much like making you stand and talk during "Demands of the Qun" instead of just letting you try to give the Venatori the boot in time. It tends to make me grumpy since it feels like forced incompetence.
|
|