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Post by peabuddie on Mar 9, 2017 19:42:08 GMT
Wow! Such hostility. If you like voiced protagonists that's cool. I like them too when they're done right like Hawke. I was just saying I did not enjoy the American male voice in DAI. I would have preferred a silent option, since I can't picture a Qunari with a British accent. I do think the male and female British and female American va's are done well. Though I only heard the female American voice in the CC. I liked POE, but I like BioWare games more for their companion stories and banter. As for femShep. Yeah, I heard she's badass, I might give the series a chance if I create her. Plus I've had a crush on Jennifer Hale since she did Bastila way back. Sorry it wasn't meant hostile. But I got the impression from your post you despite voiced games deeply. I think its mostly a matter of taste - I wasn't so very happy with male voice for Hawke btw. STrangely the female voices in 80 % of RPG games are always the better ones. There are very few Jennifer Hales (FEMshep). But that's not the point. It was the writing that made the DAI Protag. so bland and boring, not the voice acting. So given the "no personality" writing or silent protag with choices. I would choose the latter. I appreciate Hawke and Shep. Great work there, but not great work in DAI.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 9, 2017 19:55:27 GMT
shroomofdoom Morrowind is my favorite Elders Scrolls game. And I also liked Torment. The non-voiced protagonist worked well in these cases. But these two totally different style, and DA-series differs from both. Inquisition try to mix Morrowind and DA2, but –according to me– this doesn't work well. The Dragon Age is a story based RPG, and DAO, DA2 and DAI is parts of the series. There are no a lot of freedom in choices because the story will be (probably) continuing. The voiced hero much more personal. Hawke was perfect to me.
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peabuddie
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Post by peabuddie on Mar 9, 2017 20:00:04 GMT
But how many games with the unvoiced protagonist really were there that gave you a large plethora of responses and interesting texts for the PC? I started on Baldur's Gates, and it was the Bio golden standard to have three replies at every turn. Very rarely the protagonist had a memorable, quotable by heart lines. I mean, I remember that one time Bhaalspawn made a joke it was quoted endlessly as a pinnacle of delight. If I focus for a couple of hours, I might even remember what it was, something along the lines of "I come from a strange land with naked dancing mermaids"? In Jade Empire I scroll through and through, and actually I would have preferred each of the 3 archetypes to have the voice, because, hells, they have predetermined appearances. they could have had personalities... In KOTOR, I can't for the life of me even remember if they voiced Revan. The Exile, I had so much heart poured into her relationships in that game, and in the story with Bao Dur, but I cannot remember her lines. I still can quote Bao Dur's by heart. "The longest you have looked at me..." but the Exile? Nothing much. I think the game that truly converted me was SWTOR. Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Warrior, and trooper all had wonderful voice work, and the personality that matched the story. Smuggler's My ship! I want MY SHIP BACK! and fast talking is what I remember, and it would have so very different if I sat there scrolling through the options. It still cracks me up how Bounty Hunter was acting around the nobles on Alderaan. I was just playing Legacy, and I've just cheered for something that was a complete anathema for me - the auto dialogue on my protagonist. Oh, hells, how dare you treating Hawke like another NPC! But then again, after 30 hours, I have driven Hawke into the particular personality, by choosing and choosing and choosing yet again the same type responses for him. When he banters with his party it feels right, and makes me love him to bits, and I feel full ownership, lookie here, my Revel is awesome! It felt very different for me when I wrote fanfiction and actually put the words into my character's mouth, and explaining away what she did and why, and how she really interacted with other characters. picking up a pre-wrote text option on the dialogue tree never felt that way. I just don't remember them ever being particularly memorable or interesting like the voiced responses are in MET or DA2. In voiceless protagonist games, I now feel I am a disadvantage, because all those other characters, even minor have the voices, and my guy, my really super-important guy... is silent and does not have a cool voice. But he should, or he sooo deserves it! He should have the bestest voice if possible! Oh, dear me, please! Nothing but the best for my boy! It would be worthwhile for me to expound on what it is EXACTLY, that i favour about unvoiced protags, in order to really answer your question in a meaningful way. So here goes. It's not so much about the variety of choices in specific, but the type of responses that we get to pick from, that I find lacking in a voiced protag, the ability to inquire and ask specific questions, the ability to probe an NPC's noggin. As an example, take the conversation with Solas in DA:I, regarding the Wardens ambition to destroy all Archdemons and his objection to it. Because we have the voiced protag and the design approach that favours the cinematic over the traditional, considered dialogue, we don't get the chance to enquire more deeply into this objection and the motivation behind it, I think in part, as developers have to be ever mindful, of how costly it is going to be, to have all those possible queries and conversation branches voiced (and payed for, to have them so) this consideration, that expense, simply precludes them even being provided as an option, in the design of DA:I and the design choice they have prioneered in many respects, that is a fine and valid choice. But my stance, is that it also detracts from an aspect of immersion that I find integral to my rpg experience and that is the ability to press an npc for contextual information outside the immediate bounds of the cinematic narrative. Theres nothing wrong with a gaming experience like unto an interactive movie, but I prefer a greater degree of particpation. Now I'll use both Torment games as an example of non-voiced protag games, that really shine, for the sheer breadth and scope of the dialogue system, in allowing me, as not only the player of the character the developers want me to play, but the character I have shaped and nurtured, that is in effect an extension of my idealised self within the game world, to really dive into the lore and events within the story, that the developers have crafted. I get to decide what to actually talk about in wider range. I get a greater sense of engagement and even agency, in getting to have a greater degree of control over what exactly gets spoken about, certainly, that very sense of scope and agency, may be as illusionary as any form or aspect in a game, but it is tangible in a manner I find hard to put into words (ironically) I get to ask NPC's more probitive questions, the language isn't as important as what I can actually talk to this npc or that npc about. Look at Morrowind. We could ask average joe NPC about almost any conversation topic the major npcs might be asked, sure, they know didly squat about much of anything, but the questions can be asked and sometimes, surprises can be found in doing so. Of the three most recent Elder Scrolls games, Morrowind, was the least interactive in terms of facial animations, voiced dialogue etc, and yet it felt the most alive of the three in regards to npc interation, imo, in no small part due to the handling of dialogue. I may be lambasted for saying so, but I felt more character in morrowinds sparsely voiced, stiff as board NPC's than I ever did for Oblivion and Skyrims generically similar and shallow offerings. As for Kotor 1 & 2, I remember alot of Protag dialogue quite well, they were both so well written. A stand out moment for me was a dark side Revan on the command center of the Star Forge, chastising Malak, for his foolish impudence, in believing he was ever the true lord of the Sith. "And so the apprentice has learned his final lesson" sure, it's not earth shaking, but I remember a great sense of epicness at the time of playing it. The dialogue in 2 was much better, perhaps thanks to Avellone. I could list instances in which the dialogue system in the game supercede everything bioware has put out since Kotor1. Every conversation with Kreia on the Ebon Hawke about just about anything, just wouldn't have been doable with the dialogue wheel, or atleast, not aswell, and liekly not with a voice protag (hell obsidian didn't get to finish the game proper, let alone voice it) and yet it stands out as a masterpiece of writing in the rog gaming genre (for some atleast!) It might not be specific lines of dialogue that stick out, that make me think "My character said that specific thing and it was awesome" It's more about the fact, i've invested time and experience points (or it's equivilant) into crafting a character of keen intellect and perception, that when a situation such as the one with Solas above arrives, I'm rewarded with the ability to divert from the more rigid narrative style of Biowares dialogue system, to actually ask Solas, "Dude, Whats really the deal with your uncharacteristically empassioned objection here" Biowares and other developers who have adopted this system, have closed the door on this kind of experience, perhaps out of necessity (cost, design choice) Thats fine. As I said before, the more stream lined, rapid pace, cinematic narrative approach has it's place. But so too does the voice-less protag and the more robust dialogue tools have a place, one which can allow stories to be told in different ways, engaging players in other ways. I don't suggest that VA should be done away with completely or that the dialogue wheel is the the end of "true gaming" but that all doors should remain open or we risk losing something intrinsicly valuable and I for one would like to see what Bioware would be capable of if they really went back to explore this more traditional means of PC NPC interaction and the depth of stories and experiences they could craft of they did so. Perhaps not with DA or ME but sometime in some medium. I know thats abit of messy explanation! I'm just about to cook and I'm rushing through this repsonse before hand (So... so... hungry lol) but hopefully that helps convey where I' comng from. "But my stance, is that it also detracts from an aspect of immersion that I find integral to my rpg experience and that is the ability to press an npc for contextual information outside the immediate bounds of the cinematic narrative. There's nothing wrong with a gaming experience like unto an interactive movie, but I prefer a greater degree of participation." This is the root of matter. BUT if I may. Could it be that the problem with this entire argument is that we begin with a faulty premise. That premise being that Bioware is still making Role Playing Games, or that we are believing that they are making ROLE playing games based on their history of making rpg's. I would suggest that Bioware is no longer making RPG's in the strictest sense. The very definition of RPG has been redefined in today's gaming world. Ask the majority of young players on this site what is the definition of an RPG is and I would imagine it would be quite different than your or my definition. Not just Bioware look at FO4. The industries idea of RPG is that we play a role. Their ROLE, defined by them, with thier choices. We get to participate a little bit. That's it. Although one could say that it has always been that way and Role playing has always been an illusion, in the past we certainly had much more control over our ROLE. No more. That role is now minimized as much as it can be to still be loosely called an RPG. The times they are a changing my friend. There are no role playing games as we define them being made by AAA publishers. This is why games like Divinity: Original Sin have been released by Independents because they recognize the trend and are wanting to fill the void. Most youngsters these days want games to be played for them. The attention span of the average gamer has fallen exponentially.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 20:08:12 GMT
BioWARE did NOT make Torment or Morrowind. They have always done the games in the same style, and just added more bells and whistles as they went. There is not a single BioWARE game that lets you drill down or adds descriptive texts in dialogues like Torment, or have a lot of stats checks to unlock way more than an occasional quest solution. And it is still there. Only with voice and cinematic cutscenes.
I am 42 year of age, and I have played Bio and only Bio with occasional Obsidian since 1998. I had no more control over Bwaalspawn than I did over Shepard. Actually, I had more control over Shepard, because s/he remembered his/her past choices and could chose to do a lot more things than, well, kill Sarevok or kill Sarevok.
I have never liked Torment style. Even back in the 1990s... I've always liked what Bio did, and still do. Save for the emptiness of the convoluted areas in Inquisition and its stop & go style on the main story vs sidequests & not my cup of tea art.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 20:41:06 GMT
BioWARE did NOT make Torment or Morrowind. They have always done the games in the same style, and just added more bells and whistles as they went. There is not a single BioWARE game that lets you drill down or adds descriptive texts in dialogues like Torment, or have a lot of stats checks to unlock way more than an occasional quest solution. And it is still there. Only with voice and cinematic cutscenes. I am 42 year of age, and I have played Bio and only Bio with occasional Obsidian since 1998. I had no more control over Bwaalspawn than I did over Shepard. Actually, I had more control over Shepard, because s/he remembered his/her past choices and could chose to do a lot more things than, well, kill Sarevok or kill Sarevok. I have never liked Torment style. Even back in the 1990s... I've always liked what Bio did, and still do. Save for the emptiness of the convoluted areas in Inquisition and its stop & go style on the main story vs sidequests. You seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, I wasn't suggesting that Bioware made Torment or Morrowind and I don't think peabuddie is labouring under this impression either, I think we are both talking about rpg's in general, in relation to voiced protagonists. Bioware may, in your estimation be doing what they have always done, but I feel that a threshold has been passed over, from a more dynamic system for the kind of game I enjoy, that Bioware used to participate in, to it's present form, which you enjoy, I enjoy it's present form too, just less so and have a preference for what has been left behind. I'm not seeking to be combative on the issue. I'm not in this conversation to find out who's right and who's wrong, as I think that such thinking is just missing the point. There is no right or wrong, just personal taste. Butting of heads is not needed. Peabuddie is quite right I think, in that it comes down in part, to the really, very broad term of rpg. All a game needs to be regarded as an rpg is the ability to take on a role within a story. Thats it. An RTS in which we assume the role and character of a commander, could quite easily be termed an rpg. Certainly we'd think of it as a RTS first, but the term can still be applied. Thats a pretty broad catch bag, that many games would easily fall into. Bioware will likely never again produce an rpg, of the style and variety of which they became famous for. That is, one of the earliest definitions of the term, within gaming. Thats just evolution. It's to be expected and I think, perhaps the failing for some of us, is expecting otherwise. Our expectations of some kind of design and style stasis, can lead us to have skewed expectations. It's one of the reasons I seek to approach any game, with an open mind and a willingness to try new things, but at the same time, if I feel something worthwhile has been traded for something that tickles my pickle less than what I've seen before, I'll endeavour to elaborate on it as best as I am able and extoll the virtues of the kinds of game elements that float my boat. I could talk in more depth, on the subject of narrative, story design and dialogue and npc interaction and how I feel it has a great deal of potential for deep and meaningful exploration of complex ideas about existance, identity and relationships, but this thread isn't really the place and I doubt many would care so much either way. You've made your own thoughts and preferences clear and they make plenty of sense. Hopefully, I have managed to express my own preferences in turn and we both come away from the exchange with a deeper appreciation for the wide variety of gaming styles and gamers who enjoy them and can be happy that we live in a time, when we can hope to see all of our gaming needs satisfied to some degree.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 9, 2017 20:59:12 GMT
I do however prefer no voice over for a protag, in my rpg's though, which need a conversation tool more robust than a dialogue wheel for that to be an option. It gives me the chance to define the tone of delivered dialogue in a way that voice acting just can't accomplish. Well said. This was my experience with Mark Meer's work in ME. I find male VOs generally to he too gruff and aggressive, but Shepard was way over the top. Which is a shame. I like Mark Meer. He's a funny guy. Here I think the solution goes in the wrong direction. By making it very clear what tone each dialogue option uses, that limits the range of options available by assigning them each a clear tone. I think the goal of voiced protagonist game design should be to let us choose the line and the tone separately. Otherwise they're limiting our characters too much. Why I think DAI's voice worked so much better than DA2's voice is in how the lines were delivered in a much more even and neutral way. This meant that the delivery was less likely to conflict with my expectation. I will always think that the actual content of the line is more important than the tone. What the devs should be doing is working to give us as much information as possible about what the line is, rather than what the tone is. I'd much rather they left the tone (and intent) to us.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 21:02:18 GMT
So which BioWare game then exhibited the dialogue style that you would want it to replicate in future games? I am in no means seeking an argument, I simply do not understand the pointing back to unspecified body of work that was abandoned. To me BioWare games remained consistent in their core design with technological improvements, and more expenditure on art/voice. they always have the same essential elements and throw in something else to try out. Sometimes they keep it for a coup,e games in a row, sometimes toss it away.
Jade Empire and Origins have the campsites dialogues, SWTOR has very similar "on the ship" structure. MET and DA: I use complex strongholds ( so does SWTOR). SWTOR and DAi allow decorations.
Baldur's gates used short dialogue trees with 2-3 responces per turn. KOTor and Jade Empire added a few more responces once in a while, but essentially still had 3 responces in most dialogue turns. So did SWTOR.
Mass Effect introduced dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist, with additional options tied to para/Renegade score. SWTOR did the same but to a lesser degree, but each of 8 classes had two different personalities.
DA 2 experimented with giving pc consistently 3 tones of voice throughout the entire game.
Inquisition went back to multiple choice, on a wheel, taking the tone of voice out.
Andromeda goes back to tones of voice from DA2.
They have never used descriptive texts, instead they started introducing cutscenes early on, in Jade Empire for sure. Even in BG they had those dreams that narrated to a still picture.
They played around with a few evolutions of influence system, starting with first gate's NPCs reacting or leaving when your alignment changed, or changing Anomen's alignment... they still do, mostly with conflicts and betrayals.
You look at it, and it is very clear they are working with very similar dialogue structure and narrative style....
I just don't see dramatic changes you guys are talking about. Where? What?
Well, maybe the only area where they differed the most from a game to game was how many companions you had, and how much content they had, how plot-important/forced. They have tried it all, from 25 archetypes in Baldur's Gate to plain all about companions ME2 to barely any companions but much alive in DA2 to advisors in Inquisition.
But It's not like BioWare ever released a game where you had no dialogue options save one, and followed the story without having any input to what happens save for advancing the dialogue after you read it. That would have truly been a departure from the game's they are famous for, and their 20 years in business.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 9, 2017 21:22:10 GMT
BioWARE did NOT make Torment or Morrowind. They have always done the games in the same style, and just added more bells and whistles as they went. There is not a single BioWARE game that lets you drill down or adds descriptive texts in dialogues like Torment, or have a lot of stats checks to unlock way more than an occasional quest solution. And it is still there. Only with voice and cinematic cutscenes. I am 42 year of age, and I have played Bio and only Bio with occasional Obsidian since 1998. I had no more control over Bwaalspawn than I did over Shepard. Actually, I had more control over Shepard, because s/he remembered his/her past choices and could chose to do a lot more things than, well, kill Sarevok or kill Sarevok. I have never liked Torment style. Even back in the 1990s... I've always liked what Bio did, and still do. Save for the emptiness of the convoluted areas in Inquisition and its stop & go style on the main story vs sidequests & not my cup of tea art. Those bells and whistles took away a lot of player control of the character by controlling reactions and motives. Not to mention these modern stories tend to be really linear, with the major objective presented early on. What BG did well was allow the player to decide his character's personality (NWN and KotOR did these even better), and by not telling you right away what was happening. After Gorion dies,the Bhaalspawn can go anywhere for any reason. There isn't even any indication that there is a single coherent story in BG until the completion of the Nashkel Mines and defeat of Mulahey, and even then only if you read the letters in his chest. Whereas, there are tons of false leads. Is Brage relevant? How about Bassilus? Two different companions urge you to investigate the Gnoll Stronghold. Droth the Ogre Mage? When I first played, I did all of that stuff before encounting anyone who thought I should look at the mines in Nashkel. Here's a test I like to use. If you remove the journal and quest markers from the game, how different is it? Is it still playable? Removing the journal should have basically no effect. Removing the quest markers shouldn't break the game, but should force more exploration (if removing the quest markers has no effect, the level design is too simple).
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 21:28:02 GMT
"But my stance, is that it also detracts from an aspect of immersion that I find integral to my rpg experience and that is the ability to press an npc for contextual information outside the immediate bounds of the cinematic narrative. There's nothing wrong with a gaming experience like unto an interactive movie, but I prefer a greater degree of participation." This is the root of matter. BUT if I may. Could it be that the problem with this entire argument is that we begin with a faulty premise. That premise being that Bioware is still making Role Playing Games, or that we are believing that they are making ROLE playing games based on their history of making rpg's. I would suggest that Bioware is no longer making RPG's in the strictest sense. The very definition of RPG has been redefined in today's gaming world. Ask the majority of young players on this site what is the definition of an RPG is and I would imagine it would be quite different than your or my definition. Not just Bioware look at FO4. The industries idea of RPG is that we play a role. Their ROLE, defined by them, with thier choices. We get to participate a little bit. That's it. Although one could say that it has always been that way and Role playing has always been an illusion, in the past we certainly had much more control over our ROLE. No more. That role is now minimized as much as it can be to still be loosely called an RPG. The times they are a changing my friend. There are no role playing games as we define them being made by AAA publishers. This is why games like Divinity: Original Sin have been released by Independents because they recognize the trend and are wanting to fill the void. Most youngsters these days want games to be played for them. The attention span of the average gamer has fallen exponentially. I think the problem is expectation. Ours in truth. Your right in that Bioware makes a different kind of game from what they used to. The unmistakeable shift from character building (on the mechanical side) we saw in DA:O for example, to the total lack of character building we see in DA:I. I'm old school, in that I like an rpg where I pump points into stats to reflect character development, where I get to decide what areas of skill my character excels in, might over mind, for example. Now DA:O didn't have anything this comprehensive, but the skill trees were far more diverse, with much more customisation and utility, than what we see in DA:I It's a small distinction, as we see some such elements in the class and ability choices we get DA:I but I regard it as a more diluted system. The reasons for such, can be argued six ways to sunday. Dumbing down is not a term I'd use as I think it's banded about for all the wrong reasons and misses the point, that certain game mechanics must evolve. The unfortunate reality is that in gaming, when something new comes along that gets some positive reception, every developer and their aged mothers, adopts the new mechanic (regardless of the actual benefits to THEIR product and design choices overall) and stop developing previous mechanics that had equal potential (and might have fit more comfortably with their design philosphy) Because of the band wagon effect. Do I think DA:I would benefit from a return to stat based character building? No, not really, the franchise never had it to begin with and no one feature should, well, feature, simply for it's inclusion. The whole game design would be fundamentally changed by this one alteration. Developers shouldn't develop with that mind set, of adding a feature so as to check a box. Bioware should continue with it's over arching design direction. If that means it moves away from the territory I find most satisfying, so be it. I'm more concerned that they remain true to their vision, than pander to anybody else. That way leads to quality gaming. I wont lie, I feel that Bioware (and many AAA developers) pander too much to market demand in regards to features. DA:I has evidence of such. It's usually the case when you read comments such as "Such and Such a developer has sold out!" It either comes from a gamers mistaken expectation (of what the game "should" be) or a developer succumbing to "feature grab" and having the final product made less solid as a result, leading to disatisfaction. Or a combination of both. Is the DA franchise still rpg? Sure it is, is it traditional rpg, certainly not. Is it worse for it? That depends on who you are and what your looking for. I still enjoy DA, I enjoy it for what it is. But for my classic rpg experience, I no longer regard Bioware as the home of the experience I most crave. Thats fine too, as, just as you point out, there are other indie developers who are working on projects that do realise the kind of games we two have been craving (or so assume) Would I like to see more AAA developers choosing to go back to old mechanics and build upon them so that they reach the fullest potential that never got realised in the past, most definately, but in todays gaming industry I wont hold my breath lol But as you point out, other developers have seen the niches and are building amazing projects. The new Torment was great and I'm watching the new Divinity from Larian with some interest too.
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Post by TormDK on Mar 9, 2017 21:30:11 GMT
I liked DA:I for what it was. You can always trust in Bioware to give you a great "The One" story. This is of course a problem if you don't want to be the one, but then this is not the game developer you are looking for
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
BioWARE did NOT make Torment or Morrowind. They have always done the games in the same style, and just added more bells and whistles as they went. There is not a single BioWARE game that lets you drill down or adds descriptive texts in dialogues like Torment, or have a lot of stats checks to unlock way more than an occasional quest solution. And it is still there. Only with voice and cinematic cutscenes. I am 42 year of age, and I have played Bio and only Bio with occasional Obsidian since 1998. I had no more control over Bwaalspawn than I did over Shepard. Actually, I had more control over Shepard, because s/he remembered his/her past choices and could chose to do a lot more things than, well, kill Sarevok or kill Sarevok. I have never liked Torment style. Even back in the 1990s... I've always liked what Bio did, and still do. Save for the emptiness of the convoluted areas in Inquisition and its stop & go style on the main story vs sidequests & not my cup of tea art. Those bells and whistles took away a lot of player control of the character by controlling reactions and motives. Not to mention these modern stories tend to be really linear, with the major objective presented early on. What BG did well was allow the player to decide his character's personality (NWN and KotOR did these even better), and by not telling you right away what was happening. After Gorion dies,the Bhaalspawn can go anywhere for any reason. There isn't even any indication that there is a single coherent story in BG until the completion of the Nashkel Mines and defeat of Mulahey, and even then only if you read the letters in his chest. Whereas, there are tons of false leads. Is Brage relevant? How about Bassilus? Two different companions urge you to investigate the Gnoll Stronghold. Droth the Ogre Mage? When I first played, I did all of that stuff before encounting anyone who thought I should look at the mines in Nashkel. Here's a test I like to use. If you remove the journal and quest markers from the game, how different is it? Is it still playable? Removing the journal should have basically no effect. Removing the quest markers shouldn't break the game, but should force more exploration (if removing the quest markers has no effect, the level design is too simple). Okay, that I do understand. Removing the main story markers, yes, there Inquisition goes close to Baldur's Gate, where you went map by map, rather than quest by quest. NWN1 is the only BioWare game I abandoned early on as unenjoyable, so I can't comment, but I remember KOTOR to be basically like ME1. You were given planets to investigate that eventually lead you to the breadcrumb trail. I have never connected the order of quests with character's personality. In terms of exploration component, I have no quarrel whatsoever with going back to BG1, with its roaming, as long as you can get around the maps easily and the maps are populated by quirky characters and stories that are interesting, not convoluted and mobbed over as in Inquisition. Voicing and cinematic have no quarrel with that. I would strongly object to nwn1, which had far too little story and no cast of memorable characters. nwn1 was experimental in every way, trying to build a cooperative modal environment, their first move to non-isometric, so they have not presented their trademarks in the making of that game. That's actually a single title that I would not have attributed to BioWare if I played it blindly.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 21:49:10 GMT
So which BioWare game then exhibited the dialogue style that you would want it to replicate in future games? Specifically, BG, and Kotor 1. The dialogue system lent itself better to player guided story development, character interaction and imo, immersion. For the best sense of immersion, the best voice is my own, the one I hear when I'm reading those lines in my head. Having a selection of dialogue choices that I could choose from. Sure you can still only ask the questions that the developers let you ask, thats the nature of the beast. But being given the choice in the first place is a huge bonus in my book. The dialogue wheel is vastly reduced in terms of giving me a sense that I'm asking the questions I want to ask. To lead the narrative rather than be led by it. It might only be a small difference, but it's there, if it wasn't you wouldn't feel the way you do. It's the same distinction but with each of us coming form the opposite directions.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 21:52:18 GMT
BioWARE did NOT make Torment or Morrowind. They have always done the games in the same style, and just added more bells and whistles as they went. There is not a single BioWARE game that lets you drill down or adds descriptive texts in dialogues like Torment, or have a lot of stats checks to unlock way more than an occasional quest solution. And it is still there. Only with voice and cinematic cutscenes. I am 42 year of age, and I have played Bio and only Bio with occasional Obsidian since 1998. I had no more control over Bwaalspawn than I did over Shepard. Actually, I had more control over Shepard, because s/he remembered his/her past choices and could chose to do a lot more things than, well, kill Sarevok or kill Sarevok. I have never liked Torment style. Even back in the 1990s... I've always liked what Bio did, and still do. Save for the emptiness of the convoluted areas in Inquisition and its stop & go style on the main story vs sidequests & not my cup of tea art. Those bells and whistles took away a lot of player control of the character by controlling reactions and motives. Not to mention these modern stories tend to be really linear, with the major objective presented early on.What BG did well was allow the player to decide his character's personality (NWN and KotOR did these even better), and by not telling you right away what was happening. After Gorion dies,the Bhaalspawn can go anywhere for any reason. There isn't even any indication that there is a single coherent story in BG until the completion of the Nashkel Mines and defeat of Mulahey, and even then only if you read the letters in his chest. Whereas, there are tons of false leads. Is Brage relevant? How about Bassilus? Two different companions urge you to investigate the Gnoll Stronghold. Droth the Ogre Mage? When I first played, I did all of that stuff before encounting anyone who thought I should look at the mines in Nashkel. Here's a test I like to use. If you remove the journal and quest markers from the game, how different is it? Is it still playable? Removing the journal should have basically no effect. Removing the quest markers shouldn't break the game, but should force more exploration (if removing the quest markers has no effect, the level design is too simple). Well said, this has alot to do with my feelings on the matter. Somehow, I feel like im simply playing out biowares character, not mine. and it can effect a vast degree of other aspects of the whole narrative as it folds into an overall design philosophy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 22:00:07 GMT
So which BioWare game then exhibited the dialogue style that you would want it to replicate in future games? Specifically, BG, and Kotor 1. The dialogue system lent itself better to player guided story development, character interaction and imo, immersion. For the best sense of immersion, the best voice is my own, the one I hear when I'm reading those lines in my head. Having a selection of dialogue choices that I could choose from. Sure you can still only ask the questions that the developers let you ask, thats the nature of the beast. But being given the choice in the first place is a huge bonus in my book. The dialogue wheel is vastly reduced in terms of giving me a sense that I'm asking the questions I want to ask. To lead the narrative rather than be led by it. It might only be a small difference, but it's there, if it wasn't you wouldn't feel the way you do. It's the same distinction but with each of us coming form the opposite directions. I find that dialogue wheel generally have more options than trees did in BG and KOTOR. It was not unusual in BG1 to have only 1 or 2. In KOTOR, you started with a lot, but as the game progressed the new ones did not appear as you have exhausted the topics. Also, all three games continuously came under criticism that: but my character would never say that! why can't I ever make a joke? why are there only three options? And, most importantly, "No matter what option I pick, the responces are always the same" I know it very well, because for years and years I hang around the BG1/2 modding community and we tried and tried to give more and more responces, and to color them to a certain personality, etc. I remember setting goals for myself to give at least five responces every turn, branch it out more, and even write my characters with 4 or so consistent personalities in mind in response, put randomized reaction when you ask a character the same thing (that's one reason I watch Hawke with such an interest to see a pro do what I used to as an amateur). So, they are doing just that try on the wheel, the same three essential, one investigative option. Often there are even more. I can't recall talking to Juhani or Anomen in the same detail that I spoke to Thane or Dorian or Anders... and I sure thing gotten different dialogue from Anders when my character acted differently... unlike in BG2. I dunno, I feel that overall quality of dialogue writing has improved over the years and became way less short/inconsequential for the PC. He stopped being just a guy who prompt the cool characters to go on and tell him more about themselves or tell someone that he will do that quest in a jiffy....
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 22:36:28 GMT
Specifically, BG, and Kotor 1. The dialogue system lent itself better to player guided story development, character interaction and imo, immersion. For the best sense of immersion, the best voice is my own, the one I hear when I'm reading those lines in my head. Having a selection of dialogue choices that I could choose from. Sure you can still only ask the questions that the developers let you ask, thats the nature of the beast. But being given the choice in the first place is a huge bonus in my book. The dialogue wheel is vastly reduced in terms of giving me a sense that I'm asking the questions I want to ask. To lead the narrative rather than be led by it. It might only be a small difference, but it's there, if it wasn't you wouldn't feel the way you do. It's the same distinction but with each of us coming form the opposite directions. I find that dialogue wheel generally have more options than trees did in BG and KOTOR. It was not unusual in BG1 to have only 1 or 2. In KOTOR, you started with a lot, but as the game progressed the new ones did not appear. Also, all three games continuously came under criticism that: but my character would never say that! why can't I ever make a joke? why are there only three options? And, most importantly, "No matter what option I pick, the responces are always the same" I know it very well, because for years and years I hang around the BG1/2 modding community and we tried and tried to give more and more responces, and to color them to a certain personality, etc. I remember setting goals for myself to give at least five responces every turn, branch it out more, and even write my characters with 4 or so consistent personalities in mind in responces (that's one reason I watch Hawke with such an interest to see a pro do what I used to as an amateur). So, they are doing just that try on the wheel, the same three essential, one investigative option. I can't recall talking to Juhani or Anomen in the same detail that I spoke to Thane or Dorian or Anders... and I sure thing gotten different dialogue from Anders when my character acted differently... unlike in BG2. Putting aside the fact that BG was released just shy of 15yrs apart from Biowares latest offering of DAI, the system was pretty new then. The evolution of that system over the course of time led us to Kotor 1, Obsidian expanded on Kotor 1 with 2 and to be honest, they did it better than Bioware did. As I've been trying to explain, perhaps poorly, but it is small degrees of a number of factors, that can't be put down to simply, the number of choices, the immediate responses of npcs. That became more of a thing later, with Kotor 1, in which we really start to see the versatility of the old dialogue system, beginning to come out. I like having some sense of foreknowledge of what my PC is actually going to say, not just some vague idea. We just don't get that with the dialogue wheel. I think I'm going about this all wrong, let me be as succinct as I'm able (it not easy, I ramble lol) Primarily my reasons for prefering dialogue windows with written text over the dialogue wheel: A clear knowledge of what EXACTLY my character is saying (in effect, what I want to say) Greater fluidity of when I say something, my agency, not the games. I can formulate my own tone, intent and motive to dialogue, which is not the case with the VA and wheel, too often, my PC either says something, I don't like or says it in a manner that is contrary to the character I have created, or even expresses an opinion, I disagree with. That happens alot less in my varied experience with the window. To a lesser extent The dialogue wheel, makes it easier for developers to construct narrative, in more simplistic less nuanced terms. The long term versatility of the wheel is pretty narrow. There's not alot to innovate with. The wheel will never really go anywhere new in terms of pushing the envelope in regards to complex npc interation. It works extraordinarily well in the cinematic, straighforward and glossy style it was designed for, but has less utility in more complex setups. Development of dialogue via the window and pre displayed text, lends itself more further development and refinement, innovations and unexpected changes in the future. BG, Kotor 1 & 2 and a multitude of other games are evidence of much of this, in their growth and evolution. VA can work within this, if the VA is well done, but it will never satisfy everyone and will continue to be costly in any game that aims to be more "talky" That doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. But I think should be situational, based upon need. The dialogue wheel, I suspect won't be around for long.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 9, 2017 22:37:41 GMT
I am going to answer your dialogue question. I just don't have time right now. Okay, that I do understand. Removing the main story markers, yes, there Inquisition goes close to Baldur's Gate, where you went map by map, rather than quest by quest. NWN1 is the only BioWare game I abandoned early on as unenjoyable, so I can't comment, but I remember KOTOR to be basically like ME1. You were given planets to investigate that eventually lead you to the breadcrumb trail. ME, DAO, KotOR, and NWN all used basically the same plot structure. Here's an objective. You have 3-4 things you need to do. Choose the order. BG2 wasn't much different. I don't think the order matters so much, but the way we choose does. I don't mind this design, but I prefer the BG/DA2 approach where the objective isn't obvious up front. I just want more decision-making opportunities. That's all roleplaying is: in-character decision-making. Exploration provides lots of those. Dialogue where we can understand the options gives at least one per dialogue choice event. But dialogue where we can't understand the options provides none. Being told what the objective is provides none. I think BioWare has done exploration well 3 times: DAI, ME1, and BG1. Any of those systems would work for me. Remember that the campaign in NWN was really just there to show people what thr toolset could do. NWN was a toolset first and an RPG second. That said, I really like NWN. It has my favourite melee combat system of any BioWare game, and my favourite dialogue interface (and favourite UI generally). And it does the best job BioWare has ever done at giving us a blank slate protagonist.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 9, 2017 22:41:05 GMT
Well said, this has alot to do with my feelings on the matter. Somehow, I feel like im simply playing out biowares character, not mine. and it can effect a vast degree of other aspects of the whole narrative as it folds into an overall design philosophy. I don't think it's possible to roleplay their character, because it's not possible for us to have enough information about that character's mental state.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 22:47:32 GMT
Well said, this has alot to do with my feelings on the matter. Somehow, I feel like im simply playing out biowares character, not mine. and it can effect a vast degree of other aspects of the whole narrative as it folds into an overall design philosophy. I don't think it's possible to roleplay their character, because it's not possible for us to have enough information about that character's mental state. I tend to agree and I think it's one reason I find myself gravitating towards the blank slate PC type in my rpgs. Otherwise it's like trying to put on a six fingered glove in the dark.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 23:02:13 GMT
shroomofdoom I agree that text window will always give you exactly what your pc is saying. This is not at all a guarantee that it is more satisfactory than a voiced line for everyone. Text in the dialogue window has following limitations: It has to be short. So you cannot play a character with flowery language. You see all possible responces at once, so it impacts both the surprise factor on the next playthrough, and the dynamic of each interaction. Text does not convey accents well, As you are reading all the responces and choosing, the tempo slows down, and you have that sloth effect like in Zootopia. While voicing cost does place limitations, both the cost of it and technology that previously limited it is are less of a concern now. VAs are on contracts, rather than per line, size of the files do not matter. On the other hand, the complexity of writing and coding the copious amounts of texts remained constant. To be honest, I would not be shocked if the modern voiced game like ME2 or DA2 has actually more dialogue in word count than the KOTOR, and certainly far, far, far more than Bg1or 2. Kotor2 had a fair bit of dialogue, but i doubt it actually was more than DA2, and despite the absence of voicing the game was not delivered on time. Handling the texts itself is not an easy task. The wheel has ways to evolve. We saw introduction of emotion helpers, saw many options appearing, saw multiple voices associated with the same responces. For all we know, one day there will be an option to have a sneak peak at subtitles before choosing an option to know exactly what your character is going to say. There may eventually be the way to adjust pitch. Or interrupts when you don't like what your char is saying. If you want Torment style descriptive dialogue, then that's a different writing style entirely, and yes, that cannot be accommodated. That descriptiveness though destroys the advantage of "infusing it with my own feels" About the only thing that disappeared in the wheel based games was the characters referring to my protagonist by his given name, rather than the moniker. But it has nothing to do with the wheel. The voicing used to simply omit the name, or replace it with a pronoun, while text showed it.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 10, 2017 0:09:22 GMT
So which BioWare game then exhibited the dialogue style that you would want it to replicate in future games? I am in no means seeking an argument, I simply do not understand the pointing back to unspecified body of work that was abandoned. To me BioWare games remained consistent in their core design with technological improvements, and more expenditure on art/voice. they always have the same essential elements and throw in something else to try out. Sometimes they keep it for a coup,e games in a row, sometimes toss it away. Simple answer: BG. BG is the most radically different from the others because we got to have any party member act as party spokesperson. I was genuinely surprised when that feature didn’t return in DAO. BG, BG2, and NWN had conversations take place in the same interface as the rest of the game, where we even got to maintain camera control. After NWN, we never saw that again until DAI. I really like that feature. I strongly dislike the cinematic presentation of conversations, because I don't want the devs to interfere in my perception of the dialogue. Their use of shallow focus is particularly egregious. Beyond that, any of the silent protagonist games would do, because they gave us complete information about what options we could choose. That's the fundamental problem with the voiced games: we're asked to choose options based on incomplete information. BG, BG2, NWN, and KotOR let us have those conversations anywhere. That was better. The important thing is that we get to choose among the options. All of these use paraphrases rather that full text dialogue options. That's a huge change, and in most cases prevents is from knowing what we're actually choosing. DAI also let us disable the tone icons. I liked that. I hope MEA does the same. I dislike non-interactive content like cutscenes, though I can see their value for describing scene transitions between acts of a story, or dreams (you mention BG, but KotOR did this as well). The worst cutscene offender though was DAO, with all those scenes showing us things the Warden doesn't witness. Those should never exist. But if they do, the game needs to make it clear that the player character can not know the contents of that scene. In DAO, when Zevran explains who hired him, the player knows he is telling the truth (because we saw the scene), but the game assumes that the player's character knows this as well, and that's a problem. Approval is a side issue, except where the player is given effective control over NPC reactions (something I think the tone icons in DA2 permitted). Then the player isn't choosing what his character will say; the player is choosing what effect his character's actions will produce. And we should not get to decide that.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 10, 2017 0:25:14 GMT
I agree that text window will always give you exactly what your pc is saying. This is not at all a guarantee that it is more satisfactory than a voiced line for everyone. No system will be satisfactory to everyone. Instead, we should be given the tools to customize our experience. That flowery language fits even less well in the paraphrase. Good. That surprise is a bad thing. The player should never be surprised by his own character. Neither do paraphrases. I find it to be faster. Trying to figure out what the paraphrases mean takes me forever. BG2 has vastly more conversations than the voiced games. Each line is shorter, sure, but the game overall is about 6 times as long as DA2 or an ME game. And you're forgetting NPCs. I'd stop voicing them, too. But unless someone has actual word counts from these games, this line of discussion goes nowhere. All the voiced games need is the ability to mute the voice and see the full text. That would solve the voice problem 100% I liked that solution. I wish they'd do that again.
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Post by adrianbc on Mar 10, 2017 6:48:19 GMT
It took some time to read through this debate, but it was totally worth it! The most important conclusion for me is that all of you are considering dialogues and dialogue options as an essential part of RPG`s. Sure, RPG`s are evolving, and also there is room for different story, characters, and dialogue styles. Bioware`s RPG`s were different from the start from Black Isle`s ones, dialogue choices included. If we compare BG1, BG2 wit Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale, both Baldur`s gate games had similar dialogue options; BW used voiced NPC`s with recognizable (and slightly exaggerated) emotional expressiveness for both games (Like Minsc or Jaheira) as a way to describe a character`s behavior. This is a different solution from the descriptive inserts during dialogues, containing a character`s behavior (gestures, expressions). Both worked to some degree, but not perfectly. An exaggerated voice tone is able to suggest "unseen" and unavailable elements like impatience, aggressive gestures, confusion, but it can lead to wrong interpretations. Describing the same elements in written form makes them identical for each player but at the same time robs the player the opportunity to actively identify them, or to fail in the attempt. And this element can be important for immersion and role-playing if done well. With the use of video scenes, the full behavior of a character can be transmitted during a dialogue, including the non-verbal elements and the tone. Of course, in order to do so, you need a good actor and many such scenes, meaning increasing costs and space demands. Bioware`s obvious choice was to try limiting the costs, thus the dialogue options. Then they decided to also voice the protagonist, which was perhaps a consistency choice (it seemed a bit strange that the protagonist was the only mute character in the game). While in BG games a mute protagonist was not that strange since all the other NPC`s have only a few voiced lines. In DA:O though the Warden was an exception. But by voicing the protagonist, BW automatically introduced pre-determined personality and behavior elements, reducing the role-playing choices. They tried to offer more options with the 3 personality and tone choices in DA2 or to reduce the impact with a neutral voice in DA:I. Neither worked well for everyone. I prefer the DA2 choice since a neutral voice like the ones used in DA:I suggest more like an emotionless character (like a Tranquil mage or a heavily sedated depressive person). There would have been also the option to offer the player the choice to MUTE the protagonist in these games. Problem is, since all dialogues involved acted out scenes, not just voices like in DA:O, it would have been ineffective. Just imagine Hawke behaving aggressively in a dialogue scene. You can mute him, but this doesn`t really offer you the choice to replace an angry tone with a serene one in your mind. It just doesn`t fit Hawke`s gestures. Used well, with more dialogue options - both more dialogue and personality for the protagonist - a completely voiced RPG can become exciting. And it can be done. But it needs both expanded options: more dialogue and personality choices. Just think about a simple scene, like the first dialogue from DA:O Cousland origin, with Bryce, Howe and Duncan. Howe is acting suspiciously during the initial cutscene and the dialogue with the Warden. His two guards are asking a bizarre question. In my case, it was obvious from the start that Howe is at least hiding something, and that he very much disagrees with both Cailan and Duncan. I don`t need the written behavior descriptions for Howe`s behavior to realize this. Just a bit of observation suffices, and it would be quite rewarding if the Warden would be able to act on such a suspicion. Like explaining it to Bryce and Eleanor, and maybe even able to do a little spying on Howe. Even if the overall result would be the same, the fact that the protagonist is able to decode the meaning behind a NPC`s voice tone and non-verbal behavior AND also being able to act on it would increase immersion, not decrease it. For me, being unable to act in any way about Howe`s suspicious behavior was an immersion break. It`s the same concerning more dialogue options for a protagonist, based on the responses from NPC`s (the message and the tone/nonverbal expressions). A voiced RPG can be a good alternative if done well: more tone/personality and dialogue options for the protagonists and the chance to reach meaningful conclusions by using these options - like altering a dialogue`s or quest`s outcome. But at this stage, it seems to me that a full voiced RPG is still at a tentative level.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 13:39:31 GMT
I have read and while I do not find a reflection of how I feel about it in your posts, I am glad other people do believe what they believe and feel how they feel and like what they like, because it gives indies a chance to break into industry.
As for the original topic, I will continue to play Inquisition, but so far I feel it's the second weakest game made under BioWare logo (I exclude Obsidian/Black Isle), with NWN1 being the absolute worst. I'll get back to you with my final opinion once I ether finish it, or drop it.
And, for a game coming from BioWare's shop, it is a disappointment for me to start thinking about abandoning the first play through, or getting an advice on the forums about "what can I skip?"
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 10, 2017 16:16:20 GMT
I have read and while I do not find a reflection of how I feel about it in your posts, I am glad other people do believe what they believe and feel how they feel and like what they like, because it gives indies a chance to break into industry. As for the original topic, I will continue to play Inquisition, but so far I feel it's the second weakest game made under BioWare logo (I exclude Obsidian/Black Isle), with NWN1 being the absolute worst. I'll get back to you with my final opinion once I ether finish it, or drop it. And, for a game coming from BioWare's shop, it is a disappointment for me to start thinking about abandoning the first play through, or getting an advice on the forums about "what can I skip?" I feel the same. It's good that so many views are expressed here and in a constructive and thoughtful way, so thanks to all for that indulgence As to NVN, the main campaign is a bit of a slug. The story has some nice elements but you gotta look for em and there are some clear "early markers" for ui developments we see rolled out, refined and implemented in later bioware games. It feels like the bleeding edge that it was as one of the first isometric rpgs making the transition from pre-rendered backgrounds to fully fledged 3d. It shows that it's an early attempt if you get what I mean. The expansions where better narratively and hordes of the underdark was a great dnd romp, if you find the base campaign too stale.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 16:24:16 GMT
I have read and while I do not find a reflection of how I feel about it in your posts, I am glad other people do believe what they believe and feel how they feel and like what they like, because it gives indies a chance to break into industry. As for the original topic, I will continue to play Inquisition, but so far I feel it's the second weakest game made under BioWare logo (I exclude Obsidian/Black Isle), with NWN1 being the absolute worst. I'll get back to you with my final opinion once I ether finish it, or drop it. And, for a game coming from BioWare's shop, it is a disappointment for me to start thinking about abandoning the first play through, or getting an advice on the forums about "what can I skip?" I feel the same. It's good that so many views are expressed here and in a constructive and thoughtful way, so thanks to all for that indulgence :D As to NVN, the main campaign is a bit of a slug. The story has some nice elements but you gotta look for em and there are some clear "early markers" for ui developments we see rolled out, refined and implemented in later bioware games. It feels like the bleeding edge that it was as one of the first isometric rpgs making the transition from pre-rendered backgrounds to fully fledged 3d. It shows that it's an early attempt if you get what I mean. The expansions where better narratively and hordes of the underdark was a great dnd romp, if you find the base campaign too stale. I did buy NWN1 on Day 1, and I did bought the x-packs later, but I never brought myself to play the x-packs. The 3D very quickly came a long way, admiringly so, and they won me over. As well as the bells & whistles. Trust me, I was among the people screaming: OMG, the 3D is the worst thing that happened to gaming!!! Gimme back my pretty backgrounds! And a party of six! Oh, I was so young and loud back then. KOTOR and Jade Empire helped me change my mind about it. :) Now, the hour is too late to even think about giving NWN1 another shot. I also feel that I will not go anywhere with PoE and the Tides, because I have developed a taste for the gilded delivery. Even though I am happy that you can play as a female in Tides. :)
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