Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Mar 7, 2017 11:57:09 GMT
<abbr>ETA: Double post! Sorry everyone, don't know what happened there. Carry on. </abbr>
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Mar 7, 2017 11:59:40 GMT
Sure if you've played three games in your entire life. You need to get out more. I have finished ... *goes to check list* ... one hundred and seventy-nine games in my life, including all of BioWare's previous titles, and Dragon Age: Inquisition is in my all-time top three, along with Baldur's Gate 2 and Grim Fandango. Tastes vary.
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Wildfire
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Post by Wildfire on Mar 7, 2017 13:23:11 GMT
It's really interesting to read this thread. I find myself liking the comments of people who have drastically different opinions about the game But I guess that's the beauty of it all, isn't it? lundajfs : Your reply in the first page was really radical, but in fact I do see where you are coming from. For me, the game was always about the characters and the stories, and while I wouldn't make DA a dating simulator, I think the games would definitely benefit from reducing the amount of combat. In general, I tend to agree with lundajfs over the opinion that gameplay (especially combat) generally sucks in Bioware games. This is especially true in DAI, which was something like torture on PS4. You couldn't really do anything except smash buttons without getting frustrated to death. I think combat wasn't always bad in Bioware games. My first Bioware game was Neverwinter Nights, and I think the gameplay in NWN was pretty amazing. Sure, it was modelled on the tabletop RPG stuff, but it had awesome depth and infinite possible builds for your character. I recently replayed NWN, and it was extremely enjoyable to kick the asses of baddies with my evil cleric, even though the plot was idiotic and Aribeth's voice acting made me want to kill myself With the advent of Dragon Age, the quality of combat and character skills development suffered a lot - DAO was a phlegmatic, simplified version of NWN's D&D system, DA2 was a weird hack-and-slash experience, and DAI simply didn't make any sense at all. Personally I would very much like to play a DA with the Neverwinter Nights combat and character development. peabuddie : Completely second your thoughts about the "boring slate" Inquisitor. Such a disappointment, even without considering how great Hawke was. I've only experienced the voice of Alix Wilton Regan (English female), which was really bland and far too posh. I'm curious to try the other voices, but what bothers me more is the overall weakness of the Inquisitor as a protagonist. They don't have a character of their own, unlike Hawke, and neither is it really possible to so-called "roleplay" the Inquisitor, because they don't get to make enough meaningful choices in the end. The worst example was the final decision in Trespasser - why in the hell would I want to become the Divine's lapdog in order to continue the Inquisition?? Why can't I go rogue, especially if I don't give a shit about the Chantry nor the other nations' opinions? Massive fail, Bioware. The Trespasser would have definitely needed a third option where the Inquisition could've continued on its own, without the approval of anyone. phoray : "friends and romance in Thedas" sounds like a great concept, not too far from what lundajfs actually suggested. I'm game anytime Bioware makes a game with that title. I think they should just cut the bullshit and announce Friends and Romance in Thedas: Kirkwall, FaRiT: Ferelden and FaRiT: Orlais. Who cares about Sol-ass destroying the world except if you are a solasmancer, in that case I'll just wish you good luck... PS. I've actually always enjoyed ME combat more than the DA equivalent. ME is the only shooter I ever play so I guess it's a good change for me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:28:40 GMT
I am still playing the Inquisition for the first time, and my opinion does change as the game progress. Currently I am sitting at: 1. I love the Companions/Advisors and their stories so far. They are quite a bit more alive than a lot of the fantasy-games constructs. On the flip-side they do not belong in the medieval setting. But… is it? 2. The setting no longer has anything to do with Origins and Kirkwall Saga. It made a swift move from paying a lip service to the very romanticized Middle Ages (as is a normal approach in every gosh darn fantasy saga) to the nineteenth century pretending it is the sixteenth. I do not mind it being that way, but where are my rapiers and early firearms? 3. The game is schizophrenic. There are snippets of BioWARE story-telling with narrated quests. Then there are a bunch of battle-free (or almost battle-free) talky-talky quests that have infuriatingly huge amount of load screens (War table insanity - do you seriously want me to swing by Orlais, War Table and Josephine each THREE times to resolve her tiny talky-talky quest?). And then there are the mob-grind areas that look like they were sourced out to Koreans or Chinese game-makers. Completely devoid of stories, dialogues and memorable characters. But copious amounts of hard to get around areas (that's where the road to Redcliffe is? SERIOUSLY?) with the ad nausea re-spawning mobs. 4. The character design is schizophrenic as well. No assignment of attributes, downsized class choices ("DA" druids, priests and ranger classes are basically completely gone from Inquisition), and combat that is not visual at all. You don’t see the party, you don’t see the opponents, and it’s the worst of the Origins and Kirkwall Saga rather than the best of. 5. Art is schizophrenic. Area art/outfits is oriental MMO style, an attempt at as pretty as engine-possible. Character/avatar art is terrible. And as much as I am overjoyed that the film grain/stained teeth are no longer a thing, and that we are not dressed in what we were dressed in in Origins/Kirkwall, BioWARE got to decide if we are doing an Oriental MMO style now and commit to it. That applies to avatars, including their hair, eyes and skin. And the height of the darn elves. And the forward protruding heads of the Qunari. I can’t comment on the story of the game yet. So far it was very standard (pick mages or Templars… again), but I was not happy that they borrowed the main villain from a DLC in the second game. I don’t even have that DLCs… Why? To confuse the player? Because the many, many areas of complete irrelevance to the main plot is not sufficient? For Hawke’s cameo? Corypheus is a major figure in the world. Not buying story DLC was your choice. You could also just watch the DLC on youtube if you don't want to buy it. Seeing that I've bought the game 5 years after release, I don't see why it is not included into the game. DLC are optional, and cannot be played as Stand-alone games, while their price is the same as the base game. I do take issues with that policy, and I think it's unethical to base the plot of the sequel on a DLC. ME3 has Liara simply mention that she did something on her own, referring to Shadow Broker. Anders in DA2 is perfectly lucid without Awakening. But bringing back Hawke, with whom I played for 30 hours, and making that playtime completely irrelevant, because the story revolves around a DLC, I am unfamiliar with, in fact spoiling its events, sucks.
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ATR16
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Post by ATR16 on Mar 7, 2017 17:04:45 GMT
I think in a vacuum it is a 7/10 or 8/10. But the combination of studio expectations, potential for something good and loving the DA universe made DAI and DAIMP really disappointing to me. A lot of it comes from a combination of overpromising/underdelivering. - Lack of reactivity to what you have done (Did you pick Templars or mages? How about have both! Templar/mage tower being pointless, the garden being pointless, the infirmary vs sparring circle being pointless, etc.)
- Lack of reactivity to who you are (Being told before the game that race and specialization will make things totally different each playthrough, but then you could be a Qunari mage necromancer or an Elf mage and the chantry treats you like a human noble, not even like a line of "Hmmm i dunno about you" dialogue. You're told people don't trust you, but you basically never run into them). It gets to a larger point about the game where the cultural dynamics and tension don't feel like they exist at all.
- Being a broken mess on PC for a while after launch with controls and AI
- Straight up ignoring bugs and banning people on the old BSN who refused to stop asking for them to be fixed, especially in MP
- I've never hated the combat in a DA game so much
- General emptiness or pointlessness to areas. Exploring is fun, but a lot of times it didn't feel like you were exploring and discovering anything
- The story itself was not meant for open world I feel. You can tell they folded more of a linear game story (Exalted March) into their next gen ambitions
- Another story note, felt like you were always pushed to the "obvious" good guy decision, and when you were presented with an alternative it wasn't "be a dick" it was extreme like "Hitler time"
- Really wasn't a fan of the skill trees controlling your stats
- Even small features we didn't get that I remember reading about, seeing the team talk about on twitter and in panels, etc. Like dying your armour, which wasn't in PC at launch. Customizing your troops, never happened. Unique background related missions, and they were just war table missions. Unique specialization missions, which were just the fetch quests for your drinking potion thing.
I had some other complaints but those are more meta things. Feeling the game was gonna be the New Bioware Blueprint like AssCreed was for Ubisoft. Not having face codes or numbered sliders. Also, how Bioware is tackling social issues sometimes in the game/books feels like a step back from previous games/books where being gay or having women in power was just the norm and whatever so it wasn't mentioned, versus making a point to be like "LOOK!" My memory is fuzzy now since I haven't picked the game up in over 2 years, but there was one or two conversations that I found really jarring because it was like "Yeah I know, I've played games in this universe for a decade, where it was established that people is just people and some people just happen to have different bits or like different bits." I wonder if the quality message is also what seemed to tone down all the previous thick layers and layers of racism that were in the games. I still played and finished it, but it was frustrating and disappointing. It could have been so much more.
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Kabraxal
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 7, 2017 17:27:21 GMT
Personally, I think DAI was brilliant, and I would love to see MEA go in that direction. The "lifeless" protagonist is DAI's best feature when compared to DA2 or the ME trilogy. Having a protagonist that is sufficiently well-defined as to be a vibrant character all on his own leaves very little room for the player to roleplay. I will always prefer the protagonist that is more of a blank slate over one that is better defined. DAI was, finally, a step in the right direction, though they have a long way to go to get back to their best work on that front, which was NWN. If MEA goes the way of DAI I will never buy another Bioware game again. Ever. God Forbid! Who in their right mind would want Mass Effect to be turned into anything like DAI. From my reading across the web, by far the greater percentage of people are horrified at the thought that MEA will be like DAI. I own every bioware game, but if DAI becomes the standard. I'm done. It's garbage compared to thier other games. A "lifeless" protagonist as you put it isn't the same as a voiceless protag. KOTAR, DAO etc had voiceless protag. with many different dialogue choices and that is true RPG. But DAI doesn't give you that. It gives you a character with zero personality and limited dialogue choices. The player character is the worst by far. You can't make your own personality in your head via many dialogue choices and silent character, but the voiced protag.they give you is boring, generic, has no sense of humor and no personality unlike MA trilogy and DA2. In no way is the DAI Inquisitor a blank slate, it's just a boring slate with no conviction, emotion or redeeming qualities. DIA brilliant pffft. Sure if you've played three games in your entire life. You need to get out more. DA:I Is brilliant. Deal with it.
I'd bother to write more, but your post doesn't deserve more with that last line.
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ladyaly
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Post by ladyaly on Mar 7, 2017 18:14:52 GMT
If MEA goes the way of DAI I will never buy another Bioware game again. Ever. God Forbid! Who in their right mind would want Mass Effect to be turned into anything like DAI. From my reading across the web, by far the greater percentage of people are horrified at the thought that MEA will be like DAI. I own every bioware game, but if DAI becomes the standard. I'm done. It's garbage compared to thier other games. A "lifeless" protagonist as you put it isn't the same as a voiceless protag. KOTAR, DAO etc had voiceless protag. with many different dialogue choices and that is true RPG. But DAI doesn't give you that. It gives you a character with zero personality and limited dialogue choices. The player character is the worst by far. You can't make your own personality in your head via many dialogue choices and silent character, but the voiced protag.they give you is boring, generic, has no sense of humor and no personality unlike MA trilogy and DA2. In no way is the DAI Inquisitor a blank slate, it's just a boring slate with no conviction, emotion or redeeming qualities. DIA brilliant pffft. Sure if you've played three games in your entire life. You need to get out more. DA:I Is brilliant. Deal with it.
I'd bother to write more, but your post doesn't deserve more with that last line.
Amen to this !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 19:22:14 GMT
If there is a game that can be called truly brilliant in how it handled the balance between the story-line and sidequests, it’s SWTOR, not DA:I.
In SWTOR, which has more gigantic areas (planets) to visit to finish the vanilla story-line than DAI, you arrive at each planet to find the Class Story (unique for each class) and a Faction/Planetary story. These two take you around, they are voiced, acted out, interesting… and along the way you can grind mobs, collect resources and do side quests (which also have a story and are acted out).
Every planet guarantees you personalized story content AND as much exploration and mob grinds as you wish. At no point you were stuck wondering what on Thedas and WHY I am supposed to do now?
Now, that’s brilliant. Eh, well... it's ironic coming back from a MMO to an SP title to find the story delivery and story direction as lacking as it is in DA:I.
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KalleDemos
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Post by KalleDemos on Mar 7, 2017 19:25:10 GMT
Corypheus is a major figure in the world. Not buying story DLC was your choice. You could also just watch the DLC on youtube if you don't want to buy it. Seeing that I've bought the game 5 years after release, I don't see why it is not included into the game. DLC are optional, and cannot be played as Stand-alone games, while their price is the same as the base game. I do take issues with that policy, and I think it's unethical to base the plot of the sequel on a DLC. ME3 has Liara simply mention that she did something on her own, referring to Shadow Broker. Anders in DA2 is perfectly lucid without Awakening. But bringing back Hawke, with whom I played for 30 hours, and making that playtime completely irrelevant, because the story revolves around a DLC, I am unfamiliar with, in fact spoiling its events, sucks. I think that many points in your criticism of Inquisition are fair. Blaming the game for working with MAJOR characters in MAJOR story DLC that you chose to avoid is not fair criticism.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 20:27:14 GMT
Seeing that I've bought the game 5 years after release, I don't see why it is not included into the game. DLC are optional, and cannot be played as Stand-alone games, while their price is the same as the base game. I do take issues with that policy, and I think it's unethical to base the plot of the sequel on a DLC. ME3 has Liara simply mention that she did something on her own, referring to Shadow Broker. Anders in DA2 is perfectly lucid without Awakening. But bringing back Hawke, with whom I played for 30 hours, and making that playtime completely irrelevant, because the story revolves around a DLC, I am unfamiliar with, in fact spoiling its events, sucks. I think that many points in your criticism of Inquisition are fair. Blaming the game for working with MAJOR characters in MAJOR story DLC that you chose to avoid is not fair criticism. OMG, I never do this sort of thing, but after chatting with you guys I got so annoyed at not having the DLC, I paged Origins, told them, I paid full price for Inquisition a week before it went on sale just now, so $40 instead of $17, and can I please have Legacy DLC to compensate for my being so unlucky? And they gave it to me. Plus 15% off code for being a valuable customer. I am beet red right now. :)
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talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 8, 2017 1:02:22 GMT
Yes, I agree, the Inquisitor is bland and boring. That's why I try to make my Qunari as interesting as the game could let me be. I especially hate the male American pc voice, and since I never heard of any British Qunari, I have to hear the American pc va all the time. Both female pc voices are better imo. How could you not like Worf! Son of Mogh! lol just kidding, Michael Dorn is an aquired taste, I prefered the brit va myself, found he fit my elf better but Qunari had to be worfs voice. Dorn worked for me in that instance. I still think there is something to be said about no voice actor for a protagonist. Can put our own stamp on the character. Not likely to be seen in a Bioware game again however. EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not even sure it IS Michael Dorn, he just sounds sooo much like him. EDIT 2: Nope, Is Jon Curry, but Dayum that dude sounds like Worf and I'm so not gonna be able to hear him as anybody but, despite my knowing to the contrary lol Yeah, I would love a return to the silent protagonist, even though I think the British VA and Hawke's VA in DA2 were good. The females also were good. Part of the reason I never got into the Mass Effect series was because of male Shepard's voice. I could not stand it, and since I didn't play females at the time, I couldn't enjoy Jennifer Hale's work. Though I hear female Shepard is a badass. But yes, bring back the silent protagonist BioWare!
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ladyaly
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Post by ladyaly on Mar 8, 2017 7:55:53 GMT
How could you not like Worf! Son of Mogh! lol just kidding, Michael Dorn is an aquired taste, I prefered the brit va myself, found he fit my elf better but Qunari had to be worfs voice. Dorn worked for me in that instance. I still think there is something to be said about no voice actor for a protagonist. Can put our own stamp on the character. Not likely to be seen in a Bioware game again however. EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not even sure it IS Michael Dorn, he just sounds sooo much like him. EDIT 2: Nope, Is Jon Curry, but Dayum that dude sounds like Worf and I'm so not gonna be able to hear him as anybody but, despite my knowing to the contrary lol Yeah, I would love a return to the silent protagonist, even though I think the British VA and Hawke's VA in DA2 were good. The females also were good. Part of the reason I never got into the Mass Effect series was because of male Shepard's voice. I could not stand it, and since I didn't play females at the time, I couldn't enjoy Jennifer Hale's work. Though I hear female Shepard is a badass. But yes, bring back the silent protagonist BioWare! You never could *enjoy* German VA's.... I prefer a hundred times to play english because the german's are so so terrible. And to go back to silent voices... NO NO NO - plz not. Play Pillars of Eternity or something like that if you do not like voiced games. Female Shepard was indeed the most badass ever, just saying. Loved it so much !
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 8, 2017 10:18:36 GMT
Yeah, I would love a return to the silent protagonist, even though I think the British VA and Hawke's VA in DA2 were good. The females also were good. Part of the reason I never got into the Mass Effect series was because of male Shepard's voice. I could not stand it, and since I didn't play females at the time, I couldn't enjoy Jennifer Hale's work. Though I hear female Shepard is a badass. But yes, bring back the silent protagonist BioWare! You never could *enjoy* German VA's.... I prefer a hundred times to play english because the german's are so so terrible. And to go back to silent voices... NO NO NO - plz not. Play Pillars of Eternity or something like that if you do not like voiced games. Female Shepard was indeed the most badass ever, just saying. Loved it so much ! I don't think you need to worry about that with a Bioware game, with the dialogue wheel, the cinematic approach to conversations and their general design direction, it will never happen. I do however prefer no voice over for a protag, in my rpg's though, which need a conversation tool more robust than a dialogue wheel for that to be an option. It gives me the chance to define the tone of delivered dialogue in a way that voice acting just can't accomplish. Then there's the situations in which, people just take a disliking to a particular voice actors efforts. I've played a few games now with the dialogue wheel, where I pick a particular option, thinking it will be delivered in one way only for the pc to deliver completely in a manner that is outside of my characters nature. The problem is compounded when the dialogue wheel might say something like "Object" to a simple request, only for my character to do so in the most obnoxious way, leaving me feeling a bit WTF? Dude, calm down! Bioware and other dvelopers need to put a bit more thought into how much information they are providing in the dialogue wheel itself. It's one thing I liked about DA:2, with it's three archetypes. Sure it was abit two dimensional (like ME's paragon/renegade choices, which could at times, lurch from ordinary conversational tone to semi psychopathic threatening faster than I can blink) but I could get an idea of the "tone" of my pc's response, which is vital in building a solid and consistant sense of the character I'm meant to be roleplaying. Torment:Tides of Numenera is a brillaint example of some masterful old school rpg dialogue and writing in the voiceless protag regard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 15:53:20 GMT
I had my reservations in respect to the voiced protagonist when I first heard of the Mass Effect Wheel. By now I have played through three Mass Effect, two Dragon Age Games and all the Class Stories in SWTOR all voiced by the actors.
What I came to think is this.
There often was not enough responses, or the right responses for me in the text-based dialogue trees, even when you had to scroll through. I much prefer the flow of the dialogue when the protagonist is voiced. When I like the performer’s voice, I can’t get enough of it, so it made me attach like crazy to some of my protagonists. It resolved the dilemma of “PC is too boring”. When I hate the performer’s voice, it kills the protagonist for me. I was caught out a few times in SWTOR and ME1 when my character said something that gave me a WHAT? I DID NOT MEAN THAT! reaction. But in ME2/3 and DA franchise all was smooth sailing. I think they are getting better :)
One notable thing that happened was that before voiced protagonists I had played exclusively female characters. After the voicing was introduced, I started playing more and more male characters, to the point of abandoning female play-throughs completely.
Apparently, having one more handsome male (and customized to my idea of handsome at that) with a voice that makes me swoon really thrills me. I rarely find female VA’s performance to my liking.
I applaud Inquisition’s choice to give me two VA’s for each gender, so I could avoid the accent that I dislike.
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talyn82
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 8, 2017 18:09:51 GMT
Yeah, I would love a return to the silent protagonist, even though I think the British VA and Hawke's VA in DA2 were good. The females also were good. Part of the reason I never got into the Mass Effect series was because of male Shepard's voice. I could not stand it, and since I didn't play females at the time, I couldn't enjoy Jennifer Hale's work. Though I hear female Shepard is a badass. But yes, bring back the silent protagonist BioWare! You never could *enjoy* German VA's.... I prefer a hundred times to play english because the german's are so so terrible. And to go back to silent voices... NO NO NO - plz not. Play Pillars of Eternity or something like that if you do not like voiced games. Female Shepard was indeed the most badass ever, just saying. Loved it so much ! Wow! Such hostility. If you like voiced protagonists that's cool. I like them too when they're done right like Hawke. I was just saying I did not enjoy the American male voice in DAI. I would have preferred a silent option, since I can't picture a Qunari with a British accent. I do think the male and female British and female American va's are done well. Though I only heard the female American voice in the CC. I liked POE, but I like BioWare games more for their companion stories and banter. As for femShep. Yeah, I heard she's badass, I might give the series a chance if I create her. Plus I've had a crush on Jennifer Hale since she did Bastila way back.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 8, 2017 21:26:05 GMT
If MEA goes the way of DAI I will never buy another Bioware game again. Ever. God Forbid! Who in their right mind would want Mass Effect to be turned into anything like DAI. From my reading across the web, by far the greater percentage of people are horrified at the thought that MEA will be like DAI. I own every bioware game, but if DAI becomes the standard. I'm done. It's garbage compared to thier other games. A "lifeless" protagonist as you put it isn't the same as a voiceless protag. KOTAR, DAO etc had voiceless protag. with many different dialogue choices and that is true RPG. But DAI doesn't give you that. It gives you a character with zero personality and limited dialogue choices. The player character is the worst by far. You can't make your own personality in your head via many dialogue choices and silent character, but the voiced protag.they give you is boring, generic, has no sense of humor and no personality unlike MA trilogy and DA2. In no way is the DAI Inquisitor a blank slate, it's just a boring slate with no conviction, emotion or redeeming qualities. DIA brilliant pffft. Sure if you've played three games in your entire life. You need to get out more. That's how I felt when DA2 followed the ME model. I haven't liked any of the ME games (the first one had potential), and DA2 was basically ME in a fantasy setting. I want BioWare to make RPGs. They have made some amazing RPGs. BG, NWN, KotOR, DAO. All terrific RPGs. DAI is more like those than the ME games were. That's why I favour the DAI design over the ME3 design. Ideally, I'd like MEA to be a cross between Star Control II and Ultima IV (with more modern visuals), but since I'm not going to get that I aim for something closer to BioWare's recent efforts.
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Post by peabuddie on Mar 8, 2017 22:10:36 GMT
If MEA goes the way of DAI I will never buy another Bioware game again. Ever. God Forbid! Who in their right mind would want Mass Effect to be turned into anything like DAI. From my reading across the web, by far the greater percentage of people are horrified at the thought that MEA will be like DAI. I own every bioware game, but if DAI becomes the standard. I'm done. It's garbage compared to thier other games. A "lifeless" protagonist as you put it isn't the same as a voiceless protag. KOTAR, DAO etc had voiceless protag. with many different dialogue choices and that is true RPG. But DAI doesn't give you that. It gives you a character with zero personality and limited dialogue choices. The player character is the worst by far. You can't make your own personality in your head via many dialogue choices and silent character, but the voiced protag.they give you is boring, generic, has no sense of humor and no personality unlike MA trilogy and DA2. In no way is the DAI Inquisitor a blank slate, it's just a boring slate with no conviction, emotion or redeeming qualities. DIA brilliant pffft. Sure if you've played three games in your entire life. You need to get out more. That's how I felt when DA2 followed the ME model. I haven't liked any of the ME games (the first one had potential), and DA2 was basically ME in a fantasy setting. I want BioWare to make RPGs. They have made some amazing RPGs. BG, NWN, KotOR, DAO. All terrific RPGs. DAI is more like those than the ME games were. That's why I favour the DAI design over the ME3 design. Ideally, I'd like MEA to be a cross between Star Control II and Ultima IV (with more modern visuals), but since I'm not going to get that I aim for something closer to BioWare's recent efforts. I feel ya. I still play those games all the time. I'm afraid for Bioware those days are gone my friend we have to look elsewhere now. Such a shame.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Mar 9, 2017 0:32:09 GMT
I'm afraid for Bioware those days are gone my friend we have to look elsewhere now. Such a shame. DAI demonstrates that those days are not as gone as thought. But it does seem that for a proper RPG (rather than an interactive story), there might be better options available. But that is no reason for me to stop trying to nudge BioWare in that direction.
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ladyaly
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Post by ladyaly on Mar 9, 2017 8:06:53 GMT
You never could *enjoy* German VA's.... I prefer a hundred times to play english because the german's are so so terrible. And to go back to silent voices... NO NO NO - plz not. Play Pillars of Eternity or something like that if you do not like voiced games. Female Shepard was indeed the most badass ever, just saying. Loved it so much ! Wow! Such hostility. If you like voiced protagonists that's cool. I like them too when they're done right like Hawke. I was just saying I did not enjoy the American male voice in DAI. I would have preferred a silent option, since I can't picture a Qunari with a British accent. I do think the male and female British and female American va's are done well. Though I only heard the female American voice in the CC. I liked POE, but I like BioWare games more for their companion stories and banter. As for femShep. Yeah, I heard she's badass, I might give the series a chance if I create her. Plus I've had a crush on Jennifer Hale since she did Bastila way back. Sorry it wasn't meant hostile. But I got the impression from your post you despite voiced games deeply. I think its mostly a matter of taste - I wasn't so very happy with male voice for Hawke btw. STrangely the female voices in 80 % of RPG games are always the better ones.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 9:40:59 GMT
I had my reservations in respect to the voiced protagonist when I first heard of the Mass Effect Wheel. By now I have played through three Mass Effect, two Dragon Age Games and all the Class Stories in SWTOR all voiced by the actors. What I came to think is this. There often was not enough responses, or the right responses for me in the text-based dialogue trees, even when you had to scroll through. I much prefer the flow of the dialogue when the protagonist is voiced. When I like the performer’s voice, I can’t get enough of it, so it made me attach like crazy to some of my protagonists. It resolved the dilemma of “PC is too boring”. When I hate the performer’s voice, it kills the protagonist for me. I was caught out a few times in SWTOR and ME1 when my character said something that gave me a WHAT? I DID NOT MEAN THAT! reaction. But in ME2/3 and DA franchise all was smooth sailing. I think they are getting better One notable thing that happened was that before voiced protagonists I had played exclusively female characters. After the voicing was introduced, I started playing more and more male characters, to the point of abandoning female play-throughs completely. Apparently, having one more handsome male (and customized to my idea of handsome at that) with a voice that makes me swoon really thrills me. I rarely find female VA’s performance to my liking. I applaud Inquisition’s choice to give me two VA’s for each gender, so I could avoid the accent that I dislike. Oh I do agree, bioware has done alright with the VA protag in general and improvements have been made as their games have gone along. Each system has it's pro's and it's con's and I don't think it's a case of which is superior or better, but which is more fit for the game in question. As I said, I think Bioware has moved very firmly in the direction of the more cinematic dialogue route, it works for them in many ways, but comes with those inevitable draw backs, that, if truth be told, they could do with focusing on so as to streamline and polish their particular approach. That said, I will always have soft spot for the old school, voiceless protag, when the developer that imploys such, does so with the support of well written dialogue. I sympathise with developers on both sides of the spectrum as it is likely no easy task to get either approach to hit that sweet spot and when it fails to do so, it usually fails rather epically. Its why I think so much importance relies on a developer having a VERY clear idea of what kind of product they are putting out and really fully commiting to it. I think this is more to do with the general move of DA towards the action rpg sub-genre, than much of anything else. Thats not really a bad thing, unless that is something we as players, dislike. I enjoyed ME for what it was, rather then dislike it for what it wasn't. I would prefer DA to remain abit more faithful to traditional RPG as oppossed to RPG-Lite, with it's emphasis on action over other elements of traditional rpg gaming, if only so as to avoid DA, becoming, ME in fantasy setting. The two franchises are distinct enough for Bioware to remain versatile as a developer and to continue putting out diverse games. I guess that, one way or another, Bioware will upset somebody, no matter which direction they head in, so chances are, they try not to worry overly much about it and just put out the game they want us to play. What the DA franchise will become going forward will remain to be seen, hopefully, which ever direction they take, it will remain engaging and relevent for me lol If not, I shall just express my dissatisfaction politely and look elsewhere for my rpg fix.
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Post by talyn82 on Mar 9, 2017 15:57:58 GMT
Wow! Such hostility. If you like voiced protagonists that's cool. I like them too when they're done right like Hawke. I was just saying I did not enjoy the American male voice in DAI. I would have preferred a silent option, since I can't picture a Qunari with a British accent. I do think the male and female British and female American va's are done well. Though I only heard the female American voice in the CC. I liked POE, but I like BioWare games more for their companion stories and banter. As for femShep. Yeah, I heard she's badass, I might give the series a chance if I create her. Plus I've had a crush on Jennifer Hale since she did Bastila way back. Sorry it wasn't meant hostile. But I got the impression from your post you despite voiced games deeply. I think its mostly a matter of taste - I wasn't so very happy with male voice for Hawke btw. STrangely the female voices in 80 % of RPG games are always the better ones. It's okay, I reread my initial post and can see were I came as anti-voiced protagonist. But yeah, if done properly I have no problem with voiced protagonists whether they are male or female.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 16:25:37 GMT
I had my reservations in respect to the voiced protagonist when I first heard of the Mass Effect Wheel. By now I have played through three Mass Effect, two Dragon Age Games and all the Class Stories in SWTOR all voiced by the actors. What I came to think is this. There often was not enough responses, or the right responses for me in the text-based dialogue trees, even when you had to scroll through. I much prefer the flow of the dialogue when the protagonist is voiced. When I like the performer’s voice, I can’t get enough of it, so it made me attach like crazy to some of my protagonists. It resolved the dilemma of “PC is too boring”. When I hate the performer’s voice, it kills the protagonist for me. I was caught out a few times in SWTOR and ME1 when my character said something that gave me a WHAT? I DID NOT MEAN THAT! reaction. But in ME2/3 and DA franchise all was smooth sailing. I think they are getting better :) One notable thing that happened was that before voiced protagonists I had played exclusively female characters. After the voicing was introduced, I started playing more and more male characters, to the point of abandoning female play-throughs completely. Apparently, having one more handsome male (and customized to my idea of handsome at that) with a voice that makes me swoon really thrills me. I rarely find female VA’s performance to my liking. I applaud Inquisition’s choice to give me two VA’s for each gender, so I could avoid the accent that I dislike. Oh I do agree, bioware has done alright with the VA protag in general and improvements have been made as their games have gone along. Each system has it's pro's and it's con's and I don't think it's a case of which is superior or better, but which is more fit for the game in question. As I said, I think Bioware has moved very firmly in the direction of the more cinematic dialogue route, it works for them in many ways, but comes with those inevitable draw backs, that, if truth be told, they could do with focusing on so as to streamline and polish their particular approach. That said, I will always have soft spot for the old school, voiceless protag, when the developer that imploys such, does so with the support of well written dialogue. I sympathise with developers on both sides of the spectrum as it is likely no easy task to get either approach to hit that sweet spot and when it fails to do so, it usually fails rather epically. Its why I think so much importance relies on a developer having a VERY clear idea of what kind of product they are putting out and really fully commiting to it. But how many games with the unvoiced protagonist really were there that gave you a large plethora of responses and interesting texts for the PC? I started on Baldur's Gates, and it was the Bio golden standard to have three replies at every turn. Very rarely the protagonist had a memorable, quotable by heart lines. I mean, I remember that one time Bhaalspawn made a joke it was quoted endlessly as a pinnacle of delight. If I focus for a couple of hours, I might even remember what it was, something along the lines of "I come from a strange land with naked dancing mermaids"? In Jade Empire I scroll through and through, and actually I would have preferred each of the 3 archetypes to have the voice, because, hells, they have predetermined appearances. they could have had personalities... In KOTOR, I can't for the life of me even remember if they voiced Revan. The Exile, I had so much heart poured into her relationships in that game, and in the story with Bao Dur, but I cannot remember her lines. I still can quote Bao Dur's by heart. "The longest you have looked at me..." but the Exile? Nothing much. I think the game that truly converted me was SWTOR. Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Warrior, and trooper all had wonderful voice work, and the personality that matched the story. Smuggler's My ship! I want MY SHIP BACK! and fast talking is what I remember, and it would have so very different if I sat there scrolling through the options. It still cracks me up how Bounty Hunter was acting around the nobles on Alderaan. I was just playing Legacy, and I've just cheered for something that was a complete anathema for me - the auto dialogue on my protagonist. Oh, hells, how dare you treating Hawke like another NPC! But then again, after 30 hours, I have driven Hawke into the particular personality, by choosing and choosing and choosing yet again the same type responses for him. When he banters with his party it feels right, and makes me love him to bits, and I feel full ownership, lookie here, my Revel is awesome! It felt very different for me when I wrote fanfiction and actually put the words into my character's mouth, and explaining away what she did and why, and how she really interacted with other characters. picking up a pre-wrote text option on the dialogue tree never felt that way. I just don't remember them ever being particularly memorable or interesting like the voiced responses are in MET or DA2. In voiceless protagonist games, I now feel I am a disadvantage, because all those other characters, even minor have the voices, and my guy, my really super-important guy... is silent and does not have a cool voice. But he should, or he sooo deserves it! He should have the bestest voice if possible! Oh, dear me, please! Nothing but the best for my boy!
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 9, 2017 19:04:30 GMT
Oh I do agree, bioware has done alright with the VA protag in general and improvements have been made as their games have gone along. Each system has it's pro's and it's con's and I don't think it's a case of which is superior or better, but which is more fit for the game in question. As I said, I think Bioware has moved very firmly in the direction of the more cinematic dialogue route, it works for them in many ways, but comes with those inevitable draw backs, that, if truth be told, they could do with focusing on so as to streamline and polish their particular approach. That said, I will always have soft spot for the old school, voiceless protag, when the developer that imploys such, does so with the support of well written dialogue. I sympathise with developers on both sides of the spectrum as it is likely no easy task to get either approach to hit that sweet spot and when it fails to do so, it usually fails rather epically. Its why I think so much importance relies on a developer having a VERY clear idea of what kind of product they are putting out and really fully commiting to it. But how many games with the unvoiced protagonist really were there that gave you a large plethora of responses and interesting texts for the PC? I started on Baldur's Gates, and it was the Bio golden standard to have three replies at every turn. Very rarely the protagonist had a memorable, quotable by heart lines. I mean, I remember that one time Bhaalspawn made a joke it was quoted endlessly as a pinnacle of delight. If I focus for a couple of hours, I might even remember what it was, something along the lines of "I come from a strange land with naked dancing mermaids"? In Jade Empire I scroll through and through, and actually I would have preferred each of the 3 archetypes to have the voice, because, hells, they have predetermined appearances. they could have had personalities... In KOTOR, I can't for the life of me even remember if they voiced Revan. The Exile, I had so much heart poured into her relationships in that game, and in the story with Bao Dur, but I cannot remember her lines. I still can quote Bao Dur's by heart. "The longest you have looked at me..." but the Exile? Nothing much. I think the game that truly converted me was SWTOR. Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Warrior, and trooper all had wonderful voice work, and the personality that matched the story. Smuggler's My ship! I want MY SHIP BACK! and fast talking is what I remember, and it would have so very different if I sat there scrolling through the options. It still cracks me up how Bounty Hunter was acting around the nobles on Alderaan. I was just playing Legacy, and I've just cheered for something that was a complete anathema for me - the auto dialogue on my protagonist. Oh, hells, how dare you treating Hawke like another NPC! But then again, after 30 hours, I have driven Hawke into the particular personality, by choosing and choosing and choosing yet again the same type responses for him. When he banters with his party it feels right, and makes me love him to bits, and I feel full ownership, lookie here, my Revel is awesome! It felt very different for me when I wrote fanfiction and actually put the words into my character's mouth, and explaining away what she did and why, and how she really interacted with other characters. picking up a pre-wrote text option on the dialogue tree never felt that way. I just don't remember them ever being particularly memorable or interesting like the voiced responses are in MET or DA2. In voiceless protagonist games, I now feel I am a disadvantage, because all those other characters, even minor have the voices, and my guy, my really super-important guy... is silent and does not have a cool voice. But he should, or he sooo deserves it! He should have the bestest voice if possible! Oh, dear me, please! Nothing but the best for my boy! It would be worthwhile for me to expound on what it is EXACTLY, that i favour about unvoiced protags, in order to really answer your question in a meaningful way. So here goes. It's not so much about the variety of choices in specific, but the type of responses that we get to pick from, that I find lacking in a voiced protag, the ability to inquire and ask specific questions, the ability to probe an NPC's noggin. As an example, take the conversation with Solas in DA:I, regarding the Wardens ambition to destroy all Archdemons and his objection to it. Because we have the voiced protag and the design approach that favours the cinematic over the traditional, considered dialogue, we don't get the chance to enquire more deeply into this objection and the motivation behind it, I think in part, as developers have to be ever mindful, of how costly it is going to be, to have all those possible queries and conversation branches voiced (and payed for, to have them so) this consideration, that expense, simply precludes them even being provided as an option, in the design of DA:I and the design choice they have prioneered in many respects, that is a fine and valid choice. But my stance, is that it also detracts from an aspect of immersion that I find integral to my rpg experience and that is the ability to press an npc for contextual information outside the immediate bounds of the cinematic narrative. Theres nothing wrong with a gaming experience like unto an interactive movie, but I prefer a greater degree of particpation. Now I'll use both Torment games as an example of non-voiced protag games, that really shine, for the sheer breadth and scope of the dialogue system, in allowing me, as not only the player of the character the developers want me to play, but the character I have shaped and nurtured, that is in effect an extension of my idealised self within the game world, to really dive into the lore and events within the story, that the developers have crafted. I get to decide what to actually talk about in wider range. I get a greater sense of engagement and even agency, in getting to have a greater degree of control over what exactly gets spoken about, certainly, that very sense of scope and agency, may be as illusionary as any form or aspect in a game, but it is tangible in a manner I find hard to put into words (ironically) I get to ask NPC's more probitive questions, the language isn't as important as what I can actually talk to this npc or that npc about. Look at Morrowind. We could ask average joe NPC about almost any conversation topic the major npcs might be asked, sure, they know didly squat about much of anything, but the questions can be asked and sometimes, surprises can be found in doing so. Of the three most recent Elder Scrolls games, Morrowind, was the least interactive in terms of facial animations, voiced dialogue etc, and yet it felt the most alive of the three in regards to npc interation, imo, in no small part due to the handling of dialogue. I may be lambasted for saying so, but I felt more character in morrowinds sparsely voiced, stiff as board NPC's than I ever did for Oblivion and Skyrims generically similar and shallow offerings. As for Kotor 1 & 2, I remember alot of Protag dialogue quite well, they were both so well written. A stand out moment for me was a dark side Revan on the command center of the Star Forge, chastising Malak, for his foolish impudence, in believing he was ever the true lord of the Sith. "And so the apprentice has learned his final lesson" sure, it's not earth shaking, but I remember a great sense of epicness at the time of playing it. The dialogue in 2 was much better, perhaps thanks to Avellone. I could list instances in which the dialogue system in the game supercede everything bioware has put out since Kotor1. Every conversation with Kreia on the Ebon Hawke about just about anything, just wouldn't have been doable with the dialogue wheel, or atleast, not aswell, and liekly not with a voice protag (hell obsidian didn't get to finish the game proper, let alone voice it) and yet it stands out as a masterpiece of writing in the rog gaming genre (for some atleast!) It might not be specific lines of dialogue that stick out, that make me think "My character said that specific thing and it was awesome" It's more about the fact, i've invested time and experience points (or it's equivilant) into crafting a character of keen intellect and perception, that when a situation such as the one with Solas above arrives, I'm rewarded with the ability to divert from the more rigid narrative style of Biowares dialogue system, to actually ask Solas, "Dude, Whats really the deal with your uncharacteristically empassioned objection here" Biowares and other developers who have adopted this system, have closed the door on this kind of experience, perhaps out of necessity (cost, design choice) Thats fine. As I said before, the more stream lined, rapid pace, cinematic narrative approach has it's place. But so too does the voice-less protag and the more robust dialogue tools have a place, one which can allow stories to be told in different ways, engaging players in other ways. I don't suggest that VA should be done away with completely or that the dialogue wheel is the the end of "true gaming" but that all doors should remain open or we risk losing something intrinsicly valuable and I for one would like to see what Bioware would be capable of if they really went back to explore this more traditional means of PC NPC interaction and the depth of stories and experiences they could craft of they did so. Perhaps not with DA or ME but sometime in some medium. I know thats abit of messy explanation! I'm just about to cook and I'm rushing through this repsonse before hand (So... so... hungry lol) but hopefully that helps convey where I' comng from.
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Post by lovelypumpkin on Mar 9, 2017 19:18:36 GMT
Mostly disappointed in it. The game had many strong points as well many weak points, like any game.
The open world was very enjoyable with all the scenery, but running around for what seems like forever until you have fast travel points got on my nerves, especially on a large map like the Hinterlands or a map where you run into an enemy every (LITERALLY) couple minutes like the Western Approach.
I also really hated that a mass majority of the side quest had little to no purpose at all, the run of the mill fetch quests, which shroud almost every open world game I’ve played. Does anybody actually like those? Some of the things like the shards and mosaic pieces seemed silly, worked really hard to complete both for what felt like nothing. Just a lot of nonsense which in the end led to more stupid ass shit. Certainly not for everyone.
The initial story-line was lacking, glad they made the Trespasser DLC which I LOOOOOOVE. Jaws of Hakkon DLC was annoyingly drawn out, made tasks complicated just to make the DLC itself appear longer than it is. The Descent DLC had nice loot, but not worth playing again if you use the Golden Nug to migrate certain items to your current play-through. Really, Trespasser is what saved the game for me.
Enjoyed most of the characters, excluding freaking Sera. They were mostly really well written, some of the companion quests I enjoyed, like Dorian’s and Blackwall’s. They had that wow factor to them.
Really, really, really hated the fucking War Table idea, it got so overwhelming for me. Things just kept appearing before I could finish most of them. Just no. Maybe that was just me, but…NO.
Replay factor? Pretty low… 5/10. Game quality? 7.5/10.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 19:23:39 GMT
shroomofdoomWell, I did not play Morrowind, and quickly abandoned Torment. I think I literally spent more time trying to mod Torment to play as a Nameless Lady than playing it. I also want to emphasize that I did not ever want to play the Torment. A friend simply said: Oh, you'd love it when you try it!!! Anna flicks her tail, and just... YOU GONNA LOVE IT! and he sent me the disks, over my objections. Heh. So, I suppose I just don't really appreciate the ability to go into the protracted dialogue trees to question the NPC way-way-way further than three turns with 4 options each (which is Bio's standard atm). I am more into sparkling, memorable dialogues that convey what you need to know, and gives the characters personality, and makes me emotionally involved with both my main and the support cast. I also really do not like descriptive dialogues in Torment that told me what my character was seeing. *Her white dress ripples in the wind, and the single tear slides down her cheek* that sort of thing is really not my thing in a video game. I have a period of infatuation with the "you need to be a mage or half-elf or have Strength over 25 or Intimidation Level 3" to get this option! but I find that as the number of PTs per games went does because there are simply were MORE games to play (unlike in 1998-2000) it all turned into meta-gaming thing for me. You want this outcome? Make sure you made a female Aasimar with this parameter maxed out by this point of the game... I don't like the content being locked away for me because I am doing something different.... I've even balked at having to play an Elf to romance Solas, because I want to play a Qunari. Play it twice? Are you kidding me? Not when I have a stack of games competing for my time. I played KOTOR 2 with Restored Content, so I got as much dialogues as was possible to integrate it. I have liked it, but I do not remember anything different there from the Baldur's Gates, KOTOR and Jade, save for the necessity to gain approval or you will not obtain full companion story or make them Jedi/Sith and a hint of romance, rather than BioWARE's standard 20-dialogue sequence (which was Bio standard at the time). I am glad that Torment got its second game because I have seen plenty of people pining for that style of a game. It's just not something I am looking for, but I am all in favor of them putting out those games. I will note however, that Torment was Obsidians/Black Isle child, not BiOWARE's. And Morrowwind is not Bio/Obsi at all, it's what? Betshada or something like that? So when BiOWARE went to a voiced protagonist they did not lose out on complex drilling-down branches. They always had three responses, plus "additional info" once in a while. BioWARE does not have "back" to go to. Asking BioWARE to go back to Torment style is like asking Obsidian to go back to the romantic cutscenes.
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