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Post by phoray on Jan 30, 2017 22:03:55 GMT
guess I just don't see it as escalating.
Archdemon->Coryphaeus
Fereldan Civil War with Kingmaking -> Orlesian Civil War with Kingmaking
Mage/Templar conflict-> Mage Templar Conflict
Dwarf kingmaking-> Divine chosen
Elven Forest with secret->Elven temple with secret
The comparisons get less similar but pretty much covered all the major stuff there.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 30, 2017 22:15:05 GMT
You shift down to smaller crises that nonetheless require a lot of effort. I bet they could make a whole game about the end of slavery in Tevinter. I think rather than shifting to smaller crises, shift it to where it's less about solving those crises. DA2 is a really good example, actually. Hawke doesn't start or end a war with the Qunari, or with the Mages and Templars, but has to deal with the effects of strife within all those groups. Taking the list that Phoray posted above, rather than DA4 being one in which we make peace with the Qunari, learn what the Grey Wardens are up to, raise the Titans, and stop Solas, etc, etc, DA4 should be a game where all of those things are in play, and our characters move forward and excel for themselves amidst the strife, not by being the chosen one to bring it all to a close. I do want to see the Fen'harel stuff resolved, if only because that, to me, is just the least compelling. I'm more interested in the present and future of Thedas than in its past. Agreed in the notion that I really don't want our character's job to be solving all the conflicts of Thedas. Indeed, I've said elsewhere that I really hope the Qunari invasion is more of a backdrop than a central conflict of DA4, the war and its impact should be evident wherever we go and play into the story, but it shouldn't be something we solve or is even resolved by the end of the game. Solving all the world's ills and mysteries should not be our story, I'm not here for that type of power fantasy.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jan 30, 2017 22:24:00 GMT
The BioWare team always write thmselves into a corner. I and other have adressed this issue long ago.
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Post by secretrare on Jan 30, 2017 22:32:34 GMT
While villains love to Take Over the World or cause The End of the World as We Know It, the heroes are most likely motivated by the polar opposite, Saving The World. A fairly simple plot/motivation related to For Great Justice and what not, this trope is pretty broad and very common for many stories not focused on character interaction only. Most of the time, this is the result of The Call, or occasionally may be someone who Jumped at the Call and is just trying to be able to do this. Note, this doesn't always happen and it's entirely possible for the bad guy to win and the world to be destroyed(very rare). Sometimes, the villain will actually help with this goal, as what's the point in taking over a pile of rubble after all? (Especially if it's Not Me This Time.) Extremely common in some genres, such as High Fantasy, soft Sci-Fi, and The Epic. If the plot escalates to this, it's "Save the World" Climax.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 31, 2017 18:56:53 GMT
guess I just don't see it as escalating. Archdemon->Coryphaeus Fereldan Civil War with Kingmaking -> Orlesian Civil War with Kingmaking Mage/Templar conflict-> Mage Templar Conflict Dwarf kingmaking-> Divine chosen Elven Forest with secret->Elven temple with secret The comparisons get less similar but pretty much covered all the major stuff there. DAO: Only one person can save the entire world from the Blight (OGB notwithstanding) DA2: (at the time, DA2 might have been an attempt to right-size the scale of the narrative, but for many reasons -- some unrelated to narrative, DA2 ended up backfiring. So, back to the drawing board and ...) DAI: Only one person can save the entire world from Corypheus and a disturbed Titan and a world-devouring god. DAI also set up the next threat to the entire world, while simultaneously blowing up most of the institutions that could help save the world. If we ignore DA2, the spectacle is increasing by a factor 3 with each iteration. So we can expect at least nine world-threatening entities in DA4.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 31, 2017 19:29:33 GMT
Well, technically speaking, the world wasn't being threatened by the disturbed Titan. It was causing earthquakes, yes, but those were mostly a threat to the lyrium mines and Orzammar.
And the Inquisitor didn't really stop the Titan; it calmed down after connecting with Shaper Valta. The Inquisitor got her to the Guardian, but I don't think defeating the creature actually had any effect on the Titan. All you did was save yourself from being killed by its automatic defence mechanisms.
Also, the Inquisitor didn't stop Corypheus on their own. Yes, the Inquisitor closed the Breach and personally defeated Corypheus, but they did so with the support of the Inquisition.
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Post by wickedcool on Jan 31, 2017 19:38:13 GMT
Im assuming that many share what/how plot will go in da4
We are recruited/rescued as we have something that prevents solas from freezing us/etc.
Somehow we have a connection to inquisition. I strongly believe scout harding is involved
Besides solas we have to fix things in and around tevinter
Darkspawn/demons will have less of a role but still present in da4
Sandal will have a role in us succeeding
Eluvians will have a role in travel-probably to help move story along
Titans and a new threat
The return of blood magic, dog companion etc
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 31, 2017 20:15:23 GMT
Well, technically speaking, the world wasn't being threatened by the disturbed Titan. It was causing earthquakes, yes, but those were mostly a threat to the lyrium mines and Orzammar. And the Inquisitor didn't really stop the Titan; it calmed down after connecting with Shaper Valta. The Inquisitor got her to the Guardian, but I don't think defeating the creature actually had any effect on the Titan. All you did was save yourself from being killed by its automatic defence mechanisms. Also, the Inquisitor didn't stop Corypheus on their own. Yes, the Inquisitor closed the Breach and personally defeated Corypheus, but they did so with the support of the Inquisition. Maybe I was mistaken, but I got the impression that left unchecked (i.e., deprived of detailed knowledge of what the Surfacers were doing messing around with the Veil), the Titan was going to do increasingly more damage to the world. Maybe not destroy it -- I'll agree with you there -- but total destruction of Southern Thedas wasn't ruled out. Agreed that the one person wasn't sufficient, but clearly necessary for each of those cases. If they didn't need the Inquisitor's personal intervention, they would have just been War-Table missions. It's safe to assume, for the sake of this being a single-player campaign, that one person is always going to be a key player in resolving the crisis, but at what point does it just become too silly to believe that one person has to personally deliver the killing blow, the dwarven vessel, the undeniable romance, etc., that saves the world? For several different threats happening more-or-less simultaneously?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 31, 2017 20:21:28 GMT
Hakkon wasn't world devouring either. Would probably have done a fair bit of damage to Ferelden/Orlais, depending on which side of the Frostbacks they came down but it was stoppable by normal means. You didn't have to have the taint so the soul of Hakkon would jump to you instead of the nearest Avvar. You just had to be good at killing a big, bad, frost dragon. By the time I reached Hakkon, I'd already killed eleven dragons. Didn't need the mark to do it either, just good old fashioned weapons.
Currently there is only one major threat to the world, Solas. Then there will be the threat to the status quo, Qunari/Tevinter war. Plus various unknowns, such as Valta and Morrigan (I bet we haven't seen the last of her). So it is not so different to previous set ups.
Of course if Solas succeeds in dropping the Veil and freeing the Evanuris, then you will get your massive increase in potential danger: 7 Creators, plus at least 3 Forgotten Ones, plus probably two Old Gods (if they don't link to either of the previous two groups). No wonder he said there would be fires of chaos.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 31, 2017 20:36:44 GMT
I don't want to downplay the threat posed by the Titan; it just wasn't apocalyptic in scale. If Orzammar's lyrium mines became inaccessible as a result of the Titan's earthquakes, that would have pretty major implications for all of Thedas. The Circle, the Templars, Tevinter — they're all dependent on lyrium.
Plus, darkspawn flooding to the surface is never good for anyone.
Hakkon Wintersbreath is more of a threat to Orlais and Ferelden. It's powerful enough on its own, but the Jaws of Hakkon would have followed their god into battle and rallied other Avvar to the cause. In the end, it would devastated the lowlands.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 1, 2017 2:18:32 GMT
Hakkon wasn't world devouring either. Holy crap. I just realized that I confused Hakkon with Alduin! My bad. Evil dragon, snow and ice, frozen in time (well, screwed over by time, anyway) ... I don't think I can be faulted too much, given the similarities.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 1, 2017 2:48:45 GMT
Fingers crossed for the next installment: Nug Age. It'll be a time of much shmooples, very squeak. It certainly will if Divine Leliana has anything to say about it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 1, 2017 4:39:11 GMT
Prequels. That's the remedy. Still tons of epicness, but with no need to one-up the chronologically succeeding iteration, because it's already happened! Imagine a game about the Rise of Arlathan. Or the Fall of Arlathan. Or the first Exalted March. Or the first Blight and the fall of the dwarven empire. Or the rise of Drakon and Ameridan. So much in lore to draw from. Even Andraste -- though the complete story of Andraste can't be covered, due to Bioware not wanting to confirm/deny the Maker -- the immediate aftermath of the fall of Andraste would be really interesting. Start the game the day after her death. Putting aside my intense dislike of prequels in general (honestly I think this is a remedy that's worse than the disease), I don't think a game would properly cover this sort of subject matter, especially considering that most of those events took so many years to meet anticlimactic ends. Personally I think that things like this should be avoided at all costs when it comes to actually making a game, and leave it to material we can read as more of a passive observer.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 1, 2017 7:41:40 GMT
There is a similar pattern concerning all three DA games.
In DA:O we have the Archdemon Urthemiel singled out as the main villain. Thedas is threatened by destruction. Then in DA:OA DLC this view is challenged by the Architect`s involvement in tainting Urthemiel, and Thedas`s races are threatened to be turned into sentient darkspawn.
In DA2 we have the Arishok and Meredith as villains, and the (immediate) threat is the destruction of Kirkwall. But in the Legacy DLC we find a bigger villain in Corypheus, another High Priest as the Architect.
In DA:I we have Corypheus pointed out as the main villain, and Thedas again under threat, but the Trespasser DLC we find out that Solas is behind Cory, and a bigger threat.
It seem to me that Bioware`s pattern is to create a story about a threat in the DA universe, and then challenging the original view by introducing a new character who is responsible for the events in the main game. Possibly this was the case for DA2 also, according to that disturbing Sandal comment ("He will raise again..."). If Bioware will keep the same pattern for DA4, Solas can be the main villain, only to find somebody else behind the whole plot in a DLC. It`s like each game uncovers characters from a hierarchy of puppet masters: The Architect, Corypheus, Solas...
Who`s next?
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Post by xilizhra on Feb 1, 2017 14:43:09 GMT
Honestly, I don't think that DAI had much spectacle creep. Corypheus was very much a paper tiger; I think he may have done less damage than the Blight overall, and one could argue that his rise was actually a net benefit for Thedas (mostly for altering the nature of the Chantry). The Breach was scary and flashy, but beyond that, there wasn't much to Corypheus.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2017 16:05:14 GMT
There is a similar pattern concerning all three DA games. In DA:O we have the Archdemon Urthemiel singled out as the main villain. Thedas is threatened by destruction. Then in DA:OA DLC this view is challenged by the Architect`s involvement in tainting Urthemiel, and Thedas`s races are threatened to be turned into sentient darkspawn. In DA2 we have the Arishok and Meredith as villains, and the (immediate) threat is the destruction of Kirkwall. But in the Legacy DLC we find a bigger villain in Corypheus, another High Priest as the Architect. In DA:I we have Corypheus pointed out as the main villain, and Thedas again under threat, but the Trespasser DLC we find out that Solas is behind Cory, and a bigger threat. It seem to me that Bioware`s pattern is to create a story about a threat in the DA universe, and then challenging the original view by introducing a new character who is responsible for the events in the main game. Possibly this was the case for DA2 also, according to that disturbing Sandal comment ("He will raise again..."). If Bioware will keep the same pattern for DA4, Solas can be the main villain, only to find somebody else behind the whole plot in a DLC. It`s like each game uncovers characters from a hierarchy of puppet masters: The Architect, Corypheus, Solas... Who`s next?Honestly, I don't think the Blight and Urthemiel was all that huge a risk to Thedas. Well, lemme rephrase, it was a threat, but it was one that could be handled. Thedas survived four such Blights before. If the Warden failed, other Grey Wardens, Orlais, and other countries would have come together to stop it. It may have taken years, or even decades, but it would have been stopped Ferelden, otoh, was boned without the HoF. And the loss of life stopping the BLight the traditional way would have been staggering in comparison to what it ultimately cost.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 1, 2017 19:04:17 GMT
Honestly, I don't think that DAI had much spectacle creep. Corypheus was very much a paper tiger; I think he may have done less damage than the Blight overall, and one could argue that his rise was actually a net benefit for Thedas (mostly for altering the nature of the Chantry). The Breach was scary and flashy, but beyond that, there wasn't much to Corypheus. What about the scary future shown in In Hushed Whispers? That's where the world-threat of Coryphish is confirmed.
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Post by xilizhra on Feb 1, 2017 19:06:15 GMT
Honestly, I don't think that DAI had much spectacle creep. Corypheus was very much a paper tiger; I think he may have done less damage than the Blight overall, and one could argue that his rise was actually a net benefit for Thedas (mostly for altering the nature of the Chantry). The Breach was scary and flashy, but beyond that, there wasn't much to Corypheus. What about the scary future shown in In Hushed Whispers? That's where the world-threat of Coryphish is confirmed. That's if the Breach couldn't be closed. And even then, Corypheus completely failed; he didn't get the new world he wanted, just a wrecked one.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 1, 2017 19:11:36 GMT
That's if the Breach couldn't be closed. And even then, Corypheus completely failed; he didn't get the new world he wanted, just a wrecked one. Wrecked from whose perspective? That may have been the way the world "should" be, and Redcliffe was simply in disrepair due to Alexius' locking himself up in defiance.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 2, 2017 1:12:07 GMT
What about the scary future shown in In Hushed Whispers? That's where the world-threat of Coryphish is confirmed. That's if the Breach couldn't be closed. And even then, Corypheus completely failed; he didn't get the new world he wanted, just a wrecked one. I think I understand, but I'm not sure it matters. Whether Coryphish threatens the world as a direct effect of his actions, of as an indirect effect, or as a completely unintentional mistake, doesn't really matter much to the people killed in the destruction of the world. The threat is at least on the same order of magnitude of destruction as a Blight. What puts it beyond a Blight in spectacle is the Orb. If Cory could use it to enter the Fade at will, that puts not only the material world at risk, but the spirit world as well. No Blight could do that, AFAWK.
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Post by phoray on Feb 2, 2017 3:29:00 GMT
That's if the Breach couldn't be closed. And even then, Corypheus completely failed; he didn't get the new world he wanted, just a wrecked one. I think I understand, but I'm not sure it matters. Whether Coryphish threatens the world as a direct effect of his actions, of as an indirect effect, or as a completely unintentional mistake, doesn't really matter much to the people killed in the destruction of the world. The threat is at least on the same order of magnitude of destruction as a Blight. What puts it beyond a Blight in spectacle is the Orb. If Cory could use it to enter the Fade at will, that puts not only the material world at risk, but the spirit world as well. No Blight could do that, AFAWK. Isn't red lyrium in both planes? seems to me that proves the Blight spilling over.
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Post by fenris on Feb 2, 2017 6:14:18 GMT
Wasn't the Dragon Age named that way BECAUSE it was predicted it would be a time of great upheaval and unrest?
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Post by Sifr on Feb 2, 2017 15:28:34 GMT
That's if the Breach couldn't be closed. And even then, Corypheus completely failed; he didn't get the new world he wanted, just a wrecked one. Wrecked from whose perspective? That may have been the way the world "should" be, and Redcliffe was simply in disrepair due to Alexius' locking himself up in defiance. According to Solas in the Dark Future; "The Veil is shattered. There is no boundary now between the world and the Fade".Which suggests that the world we're witnessing might be what things would look like if he succeeded in his plan to tear down the Veil. Although it might be that the destruction and chaos is due to the Veil not being taken down properly, but as a result of the Breach's expansion causing the two realities to collide violently.
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Post by adrianbc on Feb 2, 2017 16:26:12 GMT
There is a some problem with the idea of considering the tearing down the Veil as a source of disasters for Thedas - the fact that the Veil was not a permanent feature between the Fade and Thedas. It was created by Solas, meaning that Thedas survived just fine without it before that. So the idea of a complete destruction of Thedas as a result of the Veil disappearing seems forced for me. It`s not like the Van Allen radiation belts which protects Earth. If the Veil is a sort of energy field, its disbanding can cause a release of high amounts of energy, and that can be dangerous. My guess is that Solas intends to do something else - to "move" Thedas back in time, prior to the moment he created the Veil, allowing him to never make his mistake in the first place. We know nothing about time in a Fade universe - what DA really is. So it may be possible, if Thedas is just an exceptional Fade creation. Solas will accomplish everything he wants - restoring his People exactly how it was before the Veil. The problem with this plan is that the world of Thedas as it is will cease to exist. Bioware may have some problems with Solas`s plan...
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 2, 2017 16:46:21 GMT
Wrecked from whose perspective? That may have been the way the world "should" be, and Redcliffe was simply in disrepair due to Alexius' locking himself up in defiance. According to Solas in the Dark Future; "The Veil is shattered. There is no boundary now between the world and the Fade".Which suggests that the world we're witnessing might be what things would look like if he succeeded in his plan to tear down the Veil. Although it might be that the destruction and chaos is due to the Veil not being taken down properly, but as a result of the Breach's expansion causing the two realities to collide violently. Which is interesting, 'cause he's definitely sorrowful in the Bad Future and wants the Inquisitor and Dorian to go back and prevent it from ever happening. Even though a world with no Veil has been his goal all along.
I suppose the Solas from our timeline never lived that life, and so has no cause to regret or rethink what he's doing. (Well... he has regrets. But feeling kinda bad about something truly vile and going right ahead and doing it anyway doesn't mean much.)
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