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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 23:31:20 GMT
Well... that escalated. My thoughts exactly. 😕
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 17, 2017 23:32:28 GMT
But the next phase -- and I'm sure Lady Artifice would agree -- is to make the new Who into a caustic gay character.
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Post by fiannawolf on Jul 17, 2017 23:32:46 GMT
Ohhhh boooy......can of worms incoming on Marvel:
I put the vid links in spoilers because there's quite a few. TL'DR: Its about soapboxing about the writer's politics vs whats good for the characters/story. I could care a less about what's between a character's legs or whatever race they are. Is the story fun? Alrighty then. The only time I want a heavy amount of politics is if that's the genre for it. IE: Political theory. Good writers will use politics to make points but wont use it as a crutch. Good writers will portray hard decisions for characters in a way to showcase the good and bad of any scenario. I hate message fiction, even if its with politics I agree with, unless I'm going for an actual book who's point is to showcase various theories ect ect. If its something for fun like comics or sci fi/space opera then I do not want that pandering bs in it. Be it from Regressives or from any other faction. Frack off with your shit politics and have some damn fun. If your offended 24/7 about things then it sucks to be you. It must be very tiring to never find fun in anything anymore.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 17, 2017 23:34:18 GMT
Thanks, BBC. Unfortunately, this happened long after I lost interest in Doctor Who, but maybe I'll give it another shot.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 17, 2017 23:34:59 GMT
What thing? Discussing and portraying politics? Comics are and have always been a reflection of the world and its political climate at their time. The only reason people are speaking out about their "political messages" now is because they disagree with the politics. Is such and such character talking about treating others with respect regardless of their origins more of a political statement than creating a character called "The Mandarin" for Iron Man to fight? Or making Sue Storm being relegated to essentially "team secretary" in the Fantastic Four comics? Or, hell, a character like Wonder Woman being created in the first place?
There's no "new trend." It's an old trend in a new world.
Sure, however, some of these comics are rather extreme with their political messages, and about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. Specifically, many of Marvel's new "diversity" characters. If you want details I'm sure fiannawolf can provide some examples, she's practically an expert. I only have a passing interest.
How about instead of arguing whether this is political or not, we actually discuss the new Doctor?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 17, 2017 23:37:15 GMT
What thing? Discussing and portraying politics? Comics are and have always been a reflection of the world and its political climate at their time. The only reason people are speaking out about their "political messages" now is because they disagree with the politics. Is such and such character talking about treating others with respect regardless of their origins more of a political statement than creating a character called "The Mandarin" for Iron Man to fight? Or making Sue Storm being relegated to essentially "team secretary" in the Fantastic Four comics? Or, hell, a character like Wonder Woman being created in the first place?
There's no "new trend." It's an old trend in a new world.
Sure, however, some of these comics are rather extreme with their political messages, and about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. Specifically, many of Marvel's new "diversity" characters. If you want details I'm sure fiannawolf can provide some examples, she's practically an expert. I only have a passing interest.
We've had Superman and Batman punching out "Japs" before. I think we're fine.
If a character is poorly written, they're poorly written. But a legacy character being passed onto black person or a woman or whatever should not automatically get them labeled as a soulless pandering tactic. Neither should a legacy character being passed on to another white male automatically get that character labeled as a continuation of white cultural hegemony. Let them pass it on to whoever they want and judge the character on the merits of the writing.
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Post by fiannawolf on Jul 17, 2017 23:37:50 GMT
Thats the point: The newest Doctor is very Political, esp if twitter is any indication.
Edit: Legacy characters can be soulless esp if the writer doesn't develop them and they just hang on the coat tails of the old character. Thats what upsets people. Not changing the race or gender or whatever.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 17, 2017 23:39:09 GMT
How about instead of arguing whether this is political or not, we actually discuss the new Doctor? Who are you and why are you responding to me? A user who's annoyed at the current topic of conversation?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 17, 2017 23:40:17 GMT
Thats the point: The newest Doctor is very Political, esp if twitter is any indication. The buzz around the newest Doctor is very political. So far, the newest Doctor is some lady in a hood looking at a TARDIS.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 17, 2017 23:40:35 GMT
Thats the point: The newest Doctor is very Political, esp if twitter is any indication. You could argue nearly any writing choice to be political. More importantly, what has the actress who's playing the new Doctor done prior to this? What are her previous projects? Maybe that'll give us an idea of what direction they're going for for the next season.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 17, 2017 23:46:10 GMT
Thats the point: The newest Doctor is very Political, esp if twitter is any indication. You could argue nearly any writing choice to be political. More importantly, what has the actress who's playing the new Doctor done prior to this? What are her previous projects? Maybe that'll give us an idea of what direction they're going for for the next season. Ehh not really, Anyway Jodie was in Attack the Block with John Boyega (who plays Finn in Star Wars.).
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Post by fiannawolf on Jul 17, 2017 23:46:33 GMT
At this point, Ill just stick to the doctor I like, besides we have yet to see if this thing will fall on its face or succeed.
Edit: look at 10:10 mark. Even the mighty Fem. Feq. says show still too white. Nothing will ever be good enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 23:48:07 GMT
Who are you and why are you responding to me? A user who's annoyed at the current topic of conversation? This is just an ordinary day on the BSN, love.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 17, 2017 23:48:18 GMT
We've had Superman and Batman punching out "Japs" before. I think we're fine.
If a character is poorly written, they're poorly written. But a legacy character being passed onto black person or a woman or whatever should not automatically get them labeled as a soulless pandering tactic. Neither should a legacy character being passed on to another white male be automatically get that character labeled as a continuation of white cultural hegemony. Let them pass it on to whoever they want and judge the character on the merits of the writing.
Why do you assume that I would be okay with Superman punching "Japs"? I mean I would find it kinda understandable if it was around the time of WW2, but otherwise it sounds to me like excusing one bad decision by pointing at another.
And we can agree to disagree, that's fine too. But you are mistaking my motives, I don't care about "white cultural harmony" (whatever that is), nor do I claim that every time a character gets a remake if some sort it's "pandering". I would recommend that you watch some of the videos fiannawolf linked if you want to see some of the cases I am talking about.
Hegemony. In this context, it means the social respect (or lack thereof) accorded to white people in fiction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 23:53:37 GMT
Nothing wrong with being a geek. Also, what hairs am i splitting exactly? Explain? I didn't say it had to do with leftist values. Then why did you make such a deal out of me saying that Doctor Who has pushed values that are ostensibly against some far-left ideas and listed the Cybermen as an example?The values that are pushed today are far different from the ones back in the days of old Doctor Who.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 17, 2017 23:55:00 GMT
We've had Superman and Batman punching out "Japs" before. I think we're fine.
If a character is poorly written, they're poorly written. But a legacy character being passed onto black person or a woman or whatever should not automatically get them labeled as a soulless pandering tactic. Neither should a legacy character being passed on to another white male be automatically get that character labeled as a continuation of white cultural hegemony. Let them pass it on to whoever they want and judge the character on the merits of the writing.
Why do you assume that I would be okay with Superman punching "Japs"? I mean I would find it kinda understandable if it was around the time of WW2, but otherwise it sounds to me like excusing one bad decision by pointing at another.
And we can agree to disagree, that's fine too. But you are mistaking my motives, I don't care about "white cultural harmony" (whatever that is), nor do I claim that every time a character gets a remake if some sort it's "pandering". I would recommend that you watch some of the videos fiannawolf linked if you want to see some of the cases I am talking about.
I'm pointing out that subtlety and comic books have always had a love-hate relationship.
Hegemony means dominance. And, sure, there are no doubt cases of poorly written legacy characters. It's not my motive to question that. My motive was to argue against another user's idea that, knowing nothing else about the quality of the work, having a female character replace a male character in a role is a "disrespectful move." Would you agree with me there?
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 18, 2017 0:03:25 GMT
We've had Superman and Batman punching out "Japs" before. I think we're fine. Ah, the good old day, when Scifi protagonists only kept to really relatable and enduring social narratives.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 18, 2017 0:13:35 GMT
Again, can we actually talk about the next season? Whining about diversity makes you look boring.
1. Doctor's gender is different this season. What other differences are you hoping for to distinguish her from her predecessors? 2. What interaction are you most looking forward to involving the new Doctor? 3. What companion-related stuff are you hoping for this season? Any preferences as to the newer companions?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 18, 2017 0:14:09 GMT
Thats the point: The newest Doctor is very Political, esp if twitter is any indication. Edit: Legacy characters can be soulless esp if the writer doesn't develop them and they just hang on the coat tails of the old character. Thats what upsets people. Not changing the race or gender or whatever. Seems a bit artificial in its nature. I mean, as gaycaravaggio stated, anything can be political if you so deign it to be. And while I do *see* that that scenario in particular does exist and can happen, it's often taken for granted as being nearly always the case. That's just a particular kind of nitpick, where you take an outlier and proclaim it to be some generalizing average of another. Partisanship aside, this is a particular bane towards much of the political discussion here in regards to the character, and on average. For all involved, ourselves included.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 18, 2017 0:22:38 GMT
Some people are never satisfied.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 18, 2017 0:26:52 GMT
Again, can we actually talk about the next season? Whining about diversity makes you look boring. 1. Doctor's gender is different this season. What other differences are you hoping for to distinguish her from her predecessors? 2. What interaction are you most looking forward to involving the new Doctor? 3. What companion-related stuff are you hoping for this season? Any preferences as to the newer companions? I'd love a new companion who isn't a contemporary human. I rather like Nardole, but I don't know...I'm still nostalgic for the time when I loved Clara and was so excited for her. Which was basically how I felt until I...actually met Clara. I enjoyed Dalek!Clara and Victorian!Clara so much, I was disappointed when the portrayal of her contemporary "real" version really underwhelmed me. That said, last season kind of annoyed me in a lot of ways. I actually agree with the people who say that they can kind of bash you over the head with their morals. Sometimes the "peace above all" thing ends up meaning that the Doctor really just kind of smugly scolds people into accepting despicable injustices. I'm tempering my hopes.
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Post by Lorn on Jul 18, 2017 0:30:01 GMT
I've got no problems with it, but I have some concerns about how they'll handle it. I keep remembering, for example, when I watched the first episode of Supergirl. I remember feeling like the screenwriters were screaming "girl power!" Every five minutes. They couldn't seem to go for long without the show making a point to emphasize her gender. I couldn't watch it without rolling my eyes and thinking "I get it! She's female! Are you ready to actually give me a reason to care about this character and story beyond 'female superhero OMG'?" Thankfully they throttled back on that as the show went on, though I haven't watched it in a while. You're not missing much anyways. At the same time you can't go anywhere without a single thing being racist and sexist. Bullshit. Well, I've been called "racist" and "sexist", so there's that. So you failed to respond rationally, and resorted to throwing accusations just on your second post? Impressive.
And "Everything is somebody else's fault" is actually a line I would associate with your faction tbh, either it's the "patriarchy", or the "fucking white males", or homophobia, etc. It's all about muh oppression, isn't it?
Are you oppressed enough yet Mr. White Guy? Everyone is trying to take away your power! Everybody knows you're the real victim here!Rational responses don't work for you. I've tried it before. Yes, because every white male is immediately made a CEO of four different companies upon birth, simply because they are white... ...You are really desperate aren't you? Either respond rationally and to the point or don't respond at all.
We are here to discuss a specific topic, let's avoid dragging the discussion elsewhere.
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Reverse Bigotry! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Feminists! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SJW Propoganda! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. Is that your point? Because I think that was your point. My response is to sit from the heights of my ivy-covered ivory tour, peer down my nose and glasses, and scoff at your whiteness and maleness.Coming from a white male ginger this is quite hilarious... At this point, Ill just stick to the doctor I like, besides we have yet to see if this thing will fall on its face or succeed. Edit: look at 10:10 mark. Even the mighty Fem. Feq. says show still too white. Nothing will ever be good enough. Said by a white woman, written by a white man (Jonathan McKntosh)...
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jul 18, 2017 0:31:31 GMT
I think it's time this thread got back on topic.
I've never paid much attention to Doctor Who, but I've heard a bit about it and been looking for a new show to watch. Would anyone care to give me a detailed recommendation (i.e. the general premise, which season I should start with, etc)?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 18, 2017 0:41:16 GMT
Are you oppressed enough yet Mr. White Guy? Everyone is trying to take away your power! Everybody knows you're the real victim here!Rational responses don't work for you. I've tried it before. Yes, because every white male is immediately made a CEO of four different companies upon birth, simply because they are white... Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Reverse Bigotry! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Feminists! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah SJW Propoganda! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. Is that your point? Because I think that was your point. My response is to sit from the heights of my ivy-covered ivory tour, peer down my nose and glasses, and scoff at your whiteness and maleness.Coming from a white male ginger this is quite hilarious... Ooh, Lorn, you know man, you're so many things... I'd have hoped you'd have appreciated some humor here on this. But man, the passive-aggressiveness... work on it. Of course, I've never really taken you for being that bad of a guy, honestly. In the interest of keeping this politics free, and in the interest of engendering goodwill with you (might be a lost cause at this point, who knows), I'll just let you have this one here. *wink*
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Post by Lorn on Jul 18, 2017 1:00:52 GMT
Yes, because every white male is immediately made a CEO of four different companies upon birth, simply because they are white... Coming from a white male ginger this is quite hilarious... Ooh, Lorn , you know man, you're so many things... I'd have hoped you'd have appreciated some humor here on this. But man, the passive-aggressiveness... work on it. Of course, I've never really taken you for being that bad of a guy, honestly. In the interest of keeping this politics free, and in the interest of engendering goodwill with you (might be a lost cause at this point, who knows), I'll just let you have this one here. *wink*
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