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Post by Ieldra on Jan 23, 2020 13:16:35 GMT
And I don't think there's a single culture or religion in Dragon Age I couldn't get into the mindset of, they all have so much meat on them. Andrastianism included. The excepts from the Chant of Light we get are beautifully written, and lots of tropes classic to Catholicism have been infused with fantasy elements in really interesting ways. And frankly, properly written religious protagonists are so rare these days that it can be a breath of fresh air to play a character who actually believes in something more extensive and developed than vague pagan mysticism, let alone nothing at all. I have to agree with this. I played an Andrastian human noble in DAO, and even if he lost, if not his faith, at least his trust in the institution that represented it in the course of the story (his falling in love with Morrigan didn't help), I started him on the assumption that it would be most natural for him to be "regularly Andrastian", i.e. not a fanatic, and not a scholar of his faith, but just a normal man who believed in the Chantry's teachings because he grew up with them, and never saw a reason to question them.
On the other hand, it's absolutely astonishing how DAO managed to make me hate the Chantry with the very first sentence of DAO's intro. If you ask why, well, here we have an organization that presumes to interpret the world for everyone else, and they have the gall to lecture you about pride. Add that I value human achievement, symbolized by the image of stealing fire from the gods. That I could even play that human Andrastian speaks for how well the world was designed in that regard.
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azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,963 Likes: 21,984
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Post by azarhal on Jan 23, 2020 14:43:09 GMT
On the other hand, it's absolutely astonishing how DAO managed to make me hate the Chantry with the very first sentence of DAO's intro. If you ask why, well, here we have an organization that presumes to interpret the world for everyone else, and they have the gall to lecture you about pride. Add that I value human achievement, symbolized by the image of stealing fire from the gods. That I could even play that human Andrastian speaks for how well the world was designed in that regard. I always took the lecture about pride to be a warning about Pride demons personally. But then DAI happened and a certain Solas showed up and that name means pride in elvish.
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saandrig
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 3,382 Likes: 6,964
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Post by saandrig on Jan 23, 2020 15:51:53 GMT
On the other hand, it's absolutely astonishing how DAO managed to make me hate the Chantry with the very first sentence of DAO's intro. If you ask why, well, here we have an organization that presumes to interpret the world for everyone else, and they have the gall to lecture you about pride. Add that I value human achievement, symbolized by the image of stealing fire from the gods. That I could even play that human Andrastian speaks for how well the world was designed in that regard. I always took the lecture about pride to be a warning about Pride demons personally. But then DAI happened and a certain Solas showed up and that name means pride in elvish. Twice the Solas, double the Laia [or the correct elvish word for "fall"]... Catchy.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 23, 2020 16:43:16 GMT
Replaying Deus Ex Human Revolution again (probably for the forth time or so). Somehow, I didn't realize how limited the graphics were after all. Definitely shows its age on the visual side. Still, this is one of my favorite games of all time. The story, the lore, the atmosphere, the gameplay. It's all pretty much perfect. Even though I have done so before multiple time, I still want to hack every computer and read all the emails again. There is just so much great stuff in there. I am finally trying to get the "Foxiest of the Hounds" achievement with the Director's Cut. I hope I'll make it this time. Last time I must have triggered some alarm without noticing because even though I was super careful, I didn't get it. Well, let's see this time. It's actually quite hard to stay undetected if you really want to explore everything at the same time. I had two or three really close calls where I got surrounded by guards. But now I have all the important implants upgraded (all the hacking stuff, all the silent running stuff, all the stuff like high jump, Icarus landing and move heavy objects, that allows you to use all hidden paths and of course the Glass Shield cloak + all the energy upgrades). There should be very little problems. However, The other achievement I am still missing is the Factory Zero one, where you have to play through the Missing Link DLC without using any upgrades or firing a weapon (which, to be fair, I didn't really do yet anyway, taking everyone out hand to hand ). That could be tricky but we'll see. I just arrived in Montreal, so there is still a little time before I get there anyway. In any case, it's a brilliant game. Before starting HR, I did play The Fall (the port of the mobile game) because it was in my Steam library and it was the only Deus Ex game I haven't played. I didn't expect much but it was actually better than I thought. Apart from the fact that you can't jump, the gameplay is pretty well preserved from Human Revolution and the story is decent. (It ties in with the novel Icarus Effect very heavily, which is kinda cool. In fact, you play one of the protagonists from the novel.) The only gripe I have with The Fall (and it's a big one) is that the game just ends mid story! Apparently they planned to finish the Story with DLC and then never did. What is it with Deus Ex and unfinished stories?!? I am also (and more urgently) still waiting for the sequel to mankind divided, which will finally end the story of that game that was left hanging in mid air. Can't they just finish something over at Eidos Montreal for Christs sake? Who needs a fucking Avengers game anyway?
Even worse, in the case of The Fall: At the end of the game you get on a VTOL and make your way to Canberra, Australia I lived in Canberra for about 5 years IRL and I would have LOVED to see the Deus Ex version of the city. Dam!
Ok, calming down and getting back to Human Revolution now.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 23, 2020 22:46:56 GMT
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 23, 2020 22:50:35 GMT
I have to agree with this. I played an Andrastian human noble in DAO, and even if he lost, if not his faith, at least his trust in the institution that represented it in the course of the story (his falling in love with Morrigan didn't help), I started him on the assumption that it would be most natural for him to be "regularly Andrastian", i.e. not a fanatic, and not a scholar of his faith, but just a normal man who believed in the Chantry's teachings because he grew up with them, and never saw a reason to question them. On the other hand, it's absolutely astonishing how DAO managed to make me hate the Chantry with the very first sentence of DAO's intro. If you ask why, well, here we have an organization that presumes to interpret the world for everyone else, and they have the gall to lecture you about pride. Add that I value human achievement, symbolized by the image of stealing fire from the gods. That I could even play that human Andrastian speaks for how well the world was designed in that regard.
Wow. I had the complete opposite reaction hearing it the first time.
Church has been the primary source of public education for most of our history too, so I just kind of accepted that they're obviously the only learned institution with the most thorough records in this society, so of course whatever the poor, busy and barely interested population knows and understands about history is filtered through them. And if anything the Chantry turns out to be unrealistically reliable and on the money in their historical data, for a religious medievalish sect.
Ridiculously moralizing monks and priests served an important function for a very long time when they were the only source of recorded knowledge people had, and still do under similar circumstances in much of the world. They didn't deserve hatred then just for not measuring up to our shiny new modern standards of objective and bias-free schooling, which we haven't even figured out properly ourselves yet, so their video game representatives don't either in my eyes.
I value human achievement too. But part of that is also recognizing how dramatic and multifaceted that development has been over time, and being proud of how far we've come rather than ashamed of acknowledging how ignorant we've been.
Working in a field where people absolutely kill and cause horrific damage by - and die from - getting arrogant, forgetting precautions and messing with things they don't understand clearly enough, I see people being taught to tamp down on those impulses in general as totally warranted. Advancement is great and necessary, but without humility it's also just disaster waiting to happen. Which both the actual history of Thedas and the Chantry's understanding of it from the games support.
Now that you've drawn my attention to it, I can't stop imagining little Duncan being sat down in a small classroom with a morbid witch of a cleric feeding local kids gory horror stories about evil darkspawn borne from evil magisters' pride and lust for power, resulting in wars and death and fallen underground kingdoms until stopped by the shared cooperation and sacrifice of people everywhere. And it sounds like a pretty kickass sunday school to be honest.
And I always liked the word "Chantry", much better than "church". It sounds like a peaceful and pleasant and contemplative place, where people learn and share and develop their moral understanding of the world with storytelling and earnest rhetoric and song, that helps communities stay in balance. What a church or temple is at its absolute best. Granted not all the actual Chantries in the games live up to that image, but they're a damn good stab at it.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 23, 2020 23:14:25 GMT
There aren't many games deserving of a third play-through, particularly when it's a huge game. But Horizon Zero Dawn is such a game in my view. Let's start...
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Post by colfoley on Jan 23, 2020 23:14:33 GMT
So lets see here...BF 2:
Played two more missions today and got to Naboo...and that had to be one of the neatest set pieces the game has offered yet. Both missions in their own way but especially the star fighter operation to take out the satelites for Operation Cinder...just perfecting.
The mission was Leia was just as neat making a last stand and gunning down legions of Storm Troopers in the streets of Theed...but the end cutscene put a damper on the effect. We should've been Iden down there, I mean SHE was down there and Leia made it clear how much she fought to make up for her mistakes of being with the Empire...but it would've been nice to show it. Also the heal turn is still a little bit of a disconnect...I almost expected Iden to snarl when Leia started sprouting off about hope.
And another bad run of HvV with Rey. This is why I don't do MP games traditionallyI am so bad at them *sigh*.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dazk on Jan 24, 2020 0:49:32 GMT
So last few days lots of clearing all the small stuff from Denerim, like the start of Slim Coudry's missions and as much of the Blackstone Irregulars and Mage groups stuff. Also cleaned up other things like going to Orzamar and visiting Dagna etc. Also did all the Notice Board quests and headed to Soldiers Peak to get Starfang made. These two always crack me up: Goldana and Alistair, yeah that didn't go to well!!!: How can you not love Dagna: My precious: Combat pics:
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Post by Curious Crow on Jan 24, 2020 1:32:08 GMT
Pillars of Indecision. Hitting the same wall as usual when I want to start a "proper" run of the game. That is I'm constantly conflicted on what class I want to be, stats and team. Then when I pick one I've dug so deep into the mechanics that I'm metagaming and eventually find that I'm not really having fun at all and just being directionless. What currently counts as a plan is trying to make Clarissa (cuz she's so smart). Kinda decided on a rogue, since I wasn't feeling her as a chanter. Still kinda want to get the Devil of Carroc, except she's so far away and my attention span with the game is so short that I figure I should just play the class I like and deal with companions and stuff later. Could even just make my own companions (With blackjacks and grappling hooks!). Just need to settle down on stats and try to get into her character. Kinda want to play her a sullen, spoiled brat, because I was fiddling around with Deadfire and I just love that sulky pose. Seeing her rise from the dead just to sulk at Edér was a life giver I tell you. But kinda conflicted on if I want her to be kinda nice kid deep down or just full on cruel, spiteful little brat. Bah. Might just end up moving on to something else. Did load up the first assassins creed since I realized I didn't save my saves and that sounds like an excuse to playthrough the series again. But the game is kinda clunky so maybe not. Did have fun though. Going through the garbled memories smacking everybody is a hoot.
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azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,963 Likes: 21,984
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Post by azarhal on Jan 24, 2020 3:02:19 GMT
Deus Ex Human Revolution
Certain policemen found themselves taking a nap while on duty. Jensen ex-coworkers sure aren't that dutiful these days, taking nap in always hidden from the cameras. A funny part of that mission, there is actually a cop napping in his seat in one of the offices on the 3rd floor.
Jensen got the chip from the dead hacker that was at the factory attack, the coroner though he was a MIB from higher up the food chain too. He also found some dirt on a policemen who might know something about the investigation for the attack at Sarif 6 months ago and emails from the Captain who received orders from a certain Manderley to cover things up. Something is fishy there.
The police headquarter isn't my favorite place to be. You really want to do it without being seen by anyone unless you use the sweet talking approach (but really poor dude) and you can't really shoot the cops. Well you can, but the end result is just super annoying later in the game.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 24, 2020 11:46:45 GMT
Swtor Ran withe agent the day before and I was madder than h*ll; story - omg, I can't believe this. wtf, how can they do this and they called themselves ABC!! So high and mighty; of course it's just a reflection of rl but any way, I was caught up in the fury of the situation the agent found herself in. I chose the DS decision because I saw no other possibilities. It's foolish to be forgiving. The story spins out more threads and it's nothing I've not seen before. Still, it raises questions because I cannot recall the details of the agent story; it's like four to five years or more since I last finished the first agent's story and I played Swtor since it launched in 2011. Ran with the sith warrior and fury ignited once more. I was expecting it because I was waiting for the stone to fall; I just cannot remember how it fell. So now both the sith warrior and the agent have slimeball asses to nail.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 24, 2020 11:53:09 GMT
I have to agree with this. I played an Andrastian human noble in DAO, and even if he lost, if not his faith, at least his trust in the institution that represented it in the course of the story (his falling in love with Morrigan didn't help), I started him on the assumption that it would be most natural for him to be "regularly Andrastian", i.e. not a fanatic, and not a scholar of his faith, but just a normal man who believed in the Chantry's teachings because he grew up with them, and never saw a reason to question them. On the other hand, it's absolutely astonishing how DAO managed to make me hate the Chantry with the very first sentence of DAO's intro. If you ask why, well, here we have an organization that presumes to interpret the world for everyone else, and they have the gall to lecture you about pride. Add that I value human achievement, symbolized by the image of stealing fire from the gods. That I could even play that human Andrastian speaks for how well the world was designed in that regard.
Wow. I had the complete opposite reaction hearing it the first time.
Church has been the primary source of public education for most of our history too, so I just kind of accepted that they're obviously the only learned institution with the most thorough records in this society, so of course whatever the poor, busy and barely interested population knows and understands about history is filtered through them. And if anything the Chantry turns out to be unrealistically reliable and on the money in their historical data, for a religious medievalish sect.
Ridiculously moralizing monks and priests served an important function for a very long time when they were the only source of recorded knowledge people had, and still do under similar circumstances in much of the world. They didn't deserve hatred then just for not measuring up to our shiny new modern standards of objective and bias-free schooling, which we haven't even figured out properly ourselves yet, so their video game representatives don't either in my eyes.
I value human achievement too. But part of that is also recognizing how dramatic and multifaceted that development has been over time, and being proud of how far we've come rather than ashamed of acknowledging how ignorant we've been.
Working in a field where people absolutely kill and cause horrific damage by - and die from - getting arrogant, forgetting precautions and messing with things they don't understand clearly enough, I see people being taught to tamp down on those impulses in general as totally warranted. Advancement is great and necessary, but without humility it's also just disaster waiting to happen. Which both the actual history of Thedas and the Chantry's understanding of it from the games support.
Now that you've drawn my attention to it, I can't stop imagining little Duncan being sat down in a small classroom with a morbid witch of a cleric feeding local kids gory horror stories about evil darkspawn borne from evil magisters' pride and lust for power, resulting in wars and death and fallen underground kingdoms until stopped by the shared cooperation and sacrifice of people everywhere. And it sounds like a pretty kickass sunday school to be honest.
And I always liked the word "Chantry", much better than "church". It sounds like a peaceful and pleasant and contemplative place, where people learn and share and develop their moral understanding of the world with storytelling and earnest rhetoric and song, that helps communities stay in balance. What a church or temple is at its absolute best. Granted not all the actual Chantries in the games live up to that image, but they're a damn good stab at it. This is an interesting answer. I completely understand where you're coming from even though my own position didn't change a bit.
Note that my reaction was the players' reaction (Naturally I had no characters yet when I heard the intro for the first time, and my characters have different attitudes toward the Chantry), which is of course fueled by different information than in-world characters would have. I disliked the statement because it reminded me of certain technophobic tendencies in my social circles, present and past, and of the moralizing out of religious circles I experienced when I was younger, about things I absolutely couldn't see as evil. DA's Chantry is certainly better at some of these things than its RL analogues, and the mageborn actually present a hard problem with no really good solution in sight for a society of this tech level, so I can, to a degree, excuse how they deal with it from the player perspective even as my mageborn characters take things more personally.
Nonetheless, the forbidden city in the story represents forbidden knowledge, and the opposition to such is sort of a pet peeve of mine, to the degree that most of my characters don't remain untouched by it if it becomes a theme in a game. My motivation for an expedition to the Golden City would've been different, and I certainly wouldn't have sacrificed humans to open the way, but I insist that humans have the right, and even more, almost an obligation, to explore the far shores of their worlds, and that forbidding them access to anywhere is illegitimate (of course "this is my house, you may not enter" is legitimate, but that's only the surface meaning in the story. It's really about "you may not have the knowledge and power there is beyond this point"). In terms of Christian mythology, I support what Adam and Eve did that got them expelled from the Garden, and I just regret that they didn't manage to eat from the other tree as well before they left.
So, if I had to tell the story of the Golden City, I would stress the magisters' motivation and methods, and their recklessness, rather than their expedition as such. These should be clearly recognizeable as evil and/or problematic even to unsophisticated minds. Also, a story of entering an evil gods' city would be more appropriate from my POV, since "evil comes pouring out after they entered" makes more sense that way, and what benevolent god would punish the world for the sins of a few?
So much for Thedosian heterodox theology for now. But then, I've never been good at orthodoxy, regardless from where it comes.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 24, 2020 12:18:22 GMT
Replaying Deus Ex Human Revolution again (probably for the forth time or so). Somehow, I didn't realize how limited the graphics were after all. Definitely shows its age on the visual side. Still, this is one of my favorite games of all time. The story, the lore, the atmosphere, the gameplay. It's all pretty much perfect. Even though I have done so before multiple time, I still want to hack every computer and read all the emails again. There is just so much great stuff in there. I very much agree that DX:HR comes as close to a perfect game as I've ever seen so far. I've played it several times by now, and I'm sure I'll play it again.
What I especially appreciate is that "New Renaissance" theme and how they presented it. Here we have the prospect of a future that will change humanity, but there is a layer of romanticism over it as well, as if the story wanted to acknowledge that there will be something lost on the way, one that we might regret losing but nonetheless must lose as a prerequisite for going on. Growing pangs, innocence lost, whatever you may call it, the almost elegiac mood captures the two-faced nature of progress, the fact that life becomes more complicated even as our degrees of freedom increase. While old certainties that have almost come to define the human condition fall away, in a way they were comfortable certainties, and that some see the developments as a threat is made plausible.
Meanwhile, DXMD turned it all around and, so my impression, forgot about this altogether. IMO whoever made DXMD either never really understood the prevailing themes in the first place, or wanted to paint a layer of contemporary politics over the plot for reasons I can only speculate about. Both the concerns of the augmented and those of the unaugmented in a world where both must coexist came across much more convincingly in DXHR. That's why I can live with the sequel to DXMD taking its time or even to never come out, as annoying as having to live with an unfinished story may be.
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,644 Likes: 18,502
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 24, 2020 13:56:09 GMT
There aren't many games deserving of a third play-through, particularly when it's a huge game. But Horizon Zero Dawn is such a game in my view. Let's start... Yeah if it makes ity' wa yto PC like it's rumoured t obe doing I can see myself having fun with it.
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,644 Likes: 18,502
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 24, 2020 14:05:43 GMT
So lets see here...BF 2: Played two more missions today and got to Naboo...and that had to be one of the neatest set pieces the game has offered yet. Both missions in their own way but especially the star fighter operation to take out the satelites for Operation Cinder...just perfecting. The mission was Leia was just as neat making a last stand and gunning down legions of Storm Troopers in the streets of Theed...but the end cutscene put a damper on the effect. We should've been Iden down there, I mean SHE was down there and Leia made it clear how much she fought to make up for her mistakes of being with the Empire...but it would've been nice to show it. Also the heal turn is still a little bit of a disconnect...I almost expected Iden to snarl when Leia started sprouting off about hope. And another bad run of HvV with Rey. This is why I don't do MP games traditionallyI am so bad at them *sigh*. Yeah I'm no tthat good at MP games. Generally even when playing Fifa against my brother in the past I'm celebratimng each time I just get a goal never mind winning a match but then my brother is good at the game and unlike me he's not disabled so can use both hands. Also I struggle with Andromeda's MP but then with that I mainly only play that when I have excess Andromeda points from my strike teams because I do use the strike teams but only to help wit hextra resources for the single player so I can build my upgrades easier. But then I only do the MP mainly for a different type of challenge though aand only when I have excess points because I don't tend to last long.
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N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,982 Likes: 3,497
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 24, 2020 14:15:19 GMT
This is an interesting answer. I completely understand where you're coming from even though my own position didn't change a bit. Note that my reaction was the players' reaction (Naturally I had no characters yet when I heard the intro for the first time, and my characters have different attitudes toward the Chantry), which is of course fueled by different information than in-world characters would have. I disliked the statement because it reminded me of certain technophobic tendencies in my social circles, present and past, and of the moralizing out of religious circles I experienced when I was younger, about things I absolutely couldn't see as evil. DA's Chantry is certainly better at some of these things than its RL analogues, and the mageborn actually present a hard problem with no really good solution in sight for a society of this tech level, so I can, to a degree, excuse how they deal with it from the player perspective even as my mageborn characters take things more personally. Nonetheless, the forbidden city in the story represents forbidden knowledge, and the opposition to such is sort of a pet peeve of mine, to the degree that most of my characters don't remain untouched by it if it becomes a theme in a game. My motivation for an expedition to the Golden City would've been different, and I certainly wouldn't have sacrificed humans to open the way, but I insist that humans have the right, and even more, almost an obligation, to explore the far shores of their worlds, and that forbidding them access to anywhere is illegitimate (of course "this is my house, you may not enter" is legitimate, but that's only the surface meaning in the story. It's really about "you may not have the knowledge and power there is beyond this point"). In terms of Christian mythology, I support what Adam and Eve did that got them expelled from the Garden, and I just regret that they didn't manage to eat from the other tree as well before they left.
So, if I had to tell the story of the Golden City, I would stress the magisters' motivation and methods, and their recklessness, rather than their expedition as such. These should be clearly recognizeable as evil and/or problematic even to unsophisticated minds. Also, a story of entering an evil gods' city would be more appropriate from my POV, since "evil comes pouring out after they entered" makes more sense that way, and what benevolent god would punish the world for the sins of a few?
So much for Thedosian heterodox theology for now. But then, I've never been good at orthodoxy, regardless from where it comes. You made it clear that it was your personal reaction and that your characters' views differed and varied. Don't worry, I don't doubt your ability to roleplay. I was offering my view in response to that reaction, rather than your Cousland's perfectly justifiable disillusionment with the Chantry as an organization, considering events. Can't pretend to share your experiences. My family and immediate social circle growing up never had an iota of religious faith. Church has essentially just been a delightful Christmas tradition. But I went to a few schools with moderate religious leanings and have had friends and mentors and girlfriends who believed as an adult, and my experiences with it as an outsider have been almost exclusively pleasant, enlightening and encouraging. Your ideas about the Golden City myth sound sensible. And I'm not sure that the average Chantry cleric would disagree, if it was put to them that way. The Magisters could have eventually proven themselves "worthy" of assuming the Maker's throne by developing and exercising their understanding with integrity and restraint, rather than just grabbing at whatever power they saw and wanted for themselves, heedless of the risk. But that'd be a very abstract notion for any society that hadn't obviously learned to rely on technological advancement for daily life, which would have made it not necessarily very useful for its peasants. "Evil came pouring out after they entered" makes perfect sense to me. If you seek power with even just destructive potential for destructive reasons or with destructive methods, then obviously destruction is going to result regardless of the nature of the power. As with a lot of religions in real life, it being the deliberate punishment of a higher power is most likely just a narrative tool to make the cause and effect and implicit warning of it relatable to populations who by and large don't think in abstracts. Many have always been punished for the actions of the few, and likely always will be, because the effects of our decisions ripple outward and we can't predict them all even if we want to. That's the world we live in, of which the Maker or God is just a personification. So far as I understand it the Tree of Life is what fueled them eternally in their innocence, like basic animal drives and instincts, before they forwent it and ate from the Tree of Knowledge and had to pay the price involved with doing that. I'm not sure its existence in the story is supposed to represent the lure of yet another power-up. But in that case I can see how man wanting to integrate and retain the benefits of both could be viewed as them striving for perfection in a very messy and arbitrary process. That's both a pretty encouraging and rather hopeless idea.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 24, 2020 15:51:47 GMT
Replaying Deus Ex Human Revolution again (probably for the forth time or so). Somehow, I didn't realize how limited the graphics were after all. Definitely shows its age on the visual side. Still, this is one of my favorite games of all time. The story, the lore, the atmosphere, the gameplay. It's all pretty much perfect. Even though I have done so before multiple time, I still want to hack every computer and read all the emails again. There is just so much great stuff in there. I very much agree that DX:HR comes as close to a perfect game as I've ever seen so far. I've played it several times by now, and I'm sure I'll play it again.
What I especially appreciate is that "New Renaissance" theme and how they presented it. Here we have the prospect of a future that will change humanity, but there is a layer of romanticism over it as well, as if the story wanted to acknowledge that there will be something lost on the way, one that we might regret losing but nonetheless must lose as a prerequisite for going on. Growing pangs, innocence lost, whatever you may call it, the almost elegiac mood captures the two-faced nature of progress, the fact that life becomes more complicated even as our degrees of freedom increase. While old certainties that have almost come to define the human condition fall away, in a way they were comfortable certainties, and that some see the developments as a threat is made plausible.
Meanwhile, DXMD turned it all around and, so my impression, forgot about this altogether. IMO whoever made DXMD either never really understood the prevailing themes in the first place, or wanted to paint a layer of contemporary politics over the plot for reasons I can only speculate about. Both the concerns of the augmented and those of the unaugmented in a world where both must coexist came across much more convincingly in DXHR. That's why I can live with the sequel to DXMD taking its time or even to never come out, as annoying as having to live with an unfinished story may be.
Yes, I would go so far as to say that the "growing pains" that come with the sudden reality of augmentations is the main theme of the game. Almost every quest, heck, almost every single line of dialogue in the game refers to this in one way or another.
What strikes me the most is how thoughtfully this was executed. For one thing, the technical side of augmentation technology in DXHR is exceptionally well researched, not just for a video game but in general, for a fictional future. I am working in the neuroscience field and I can tell you, that whenever neuroscientific issues make an appearance in scifi or cyberpunk, they are usually either just glossed over without any explanation whatsoever or - even worse - horribly wrong because the authors apparently don't understand some of the fundamental principles of how the human brain works. One of my (least) favorite examples of this happens in basically every other scifi show, including Star Trek, Stargate, a bunch of movies, etc. The plotline that we usually see then is that someone becomes super intelligent through some alien or supernatural means (e.g. O'Neill's episode in Stargate SG1 when he encounters an ancient database that makes him super intelligent but slowly kills him and he has to build some device to contact the Asgard, so they can help him out). Whenever something like this happens, the resident medical person gets to say something like "Usually only 30% of a human's brain are in use but this guy now uses 100% (or 90 if they feel generous) of their brain because of [insert alien mumbo jumbo here]. This is ludicrous. The brain is an adaptive network, that requires plasticity to function, i.e. the change of rates of synaptic connection between individual neurons. It's how we can learn and remember things, it's also how we can sense things, by basically comparing which neurons are active or inactive at any given time. In order for plasticity to occur, you need parts of the network to be more active while others need to be less active. So a brain where 90+% of neurons are active is completely useless (not to mention it would give you the seizure of your lifetime - literally because it would kill you almost instantly). And that example is just the worst I can remember of the top of my head. Even harder SciFi always get neuroscience either wrong or makes it ridiculous (I just watched an episode of Babylon 5 lately where Dr. Franklin spends his entire time trying to figure out a deadly disease. When he finally explains how it works,it turns out that it basically works like the most basic neurotoxins do today, by blocking synaptic transmitters. He should have figured that out in like 10 minutes, given that one of the symptoms was paralysis but whatever).
Amway, because it's such a rare case, I really appreciate how Deus Ex HR gets this mostly right. Yes, they have there applied Phlebotinum, which are the PEDOT clusters+neuropozine but these magic solutions are addressing exactly the most prevalent problem we have with brain-machine interfaces today, which is the fact that we don't have the technology to consistently read out high resolution neuronal signals from an intact living brain without damaging it or doing so over long timespans (mostly due to tissue movement relative to the electrodes we are trying to use). Those PEDOT clusters Darrow invented solve this problem by "growing electrodes into the brain" which is actually a line of material research related to neuroscience today. Those clusters in the game also require the drug neuropozine to prevent scar tissue from forming at the interface which sounds to me like a perfectly logical follow-up problem. Furthermore, the "Scholar" ebooks as well as many characters and, emails and other stuff in the game describe real neuroscience research results (up to 2011 of course). Yea, of course they are massively simplified and described in layman's terms but in principle pretty much everything in those texts is correct. In a way, DXHR - if you read everything - can be somewhat educational. And that's a heck of a feat for a mere video game that primarily wants to entertain. So huge kudos to the authors for doing their research on the topic properly.
But more than that, I also think DX:HR does an absolutely marvelous job at describing the possible consequences of this kind of technology, both in how it affects other fields of technology and most importantly social structure. All the ramifications of augmentation technology on all sorts of different social classes and the conflicts that arise from them (which are ultimately the conflicts that the game uses to tell its story) are completely believable IMO and they are sometimes integrated into the game world in a beautifully subtle way. My favorite example of this unfortunately is no longer there in CE. But in the original game, when you go to your apartment in Detroit, you can walk up to the other locked doors on your floor and you can listen to what happens inside. Usually it's just a tv playing or something but in one case, you can overhear the muffled argument of a married couple, where the guy got augmented because otherwise he would have lost his job but now his wife became estranged to him and wants to leave him because she is too freaked out by his artificial body parts. You know, these kinds of clashes between social pressures and personal problems that lead to this particular tragedy, I find super interesting to speculate about. And they put that in just as a little easter egg that's super easy to miss. It's why I also like to talk to every single NPC in the game. Some of them have really interesting stuff to say that - even with just these two throwaway sentences that they have, or maybe because it's just that - really makes you think of the implications. There is so much subtext in this game, even though a lot if it is already on the nose, it's fantastic.
Sorry for the wall of text but Human Revolution cannot be praised enough.
As for Mankind Divided. Yea, I guess I was a little disappointed that they focused so much on the very thinly veiled racism issues and just put an augmentation drape over it if you will. The whole issue is approached in a very simplistic way when compared to the complexity of HR. However, IMO, DX:HR already covered the really interesting topic of the augmentation dilemma in such detail that MD couldn't just repeat it. So in a way, I didn't really expect them to make a second game to that super high standard again. These things just can't be replicated in series. So I did like MD for what it was definitely and I really would like to see a conclusion to Jensen's series. I think you could tell an absolutely fantastic story in a third part and really link it to the first Deus Ex. You could for example make it about Jensen slowly finding out about the nano-augmentation program and realizing that all those people who got mechanically augmented and sacrificed so much of their humanity just to stay in the game are about to be screwed over once again. Throw in the beginnings of the grey death and make Jensen throw in with Sillhouette and you have more than enough story three. I would make the game take place over a fairly long time period, so we see Jensen age (maybe slowly because of the augmentations but still) and his mechanical augmentations could deteriorate. I could even imagine something like a reverse RPG mechanic, where you have to decide which implants to shut down over time as the game goes on (which would also add to the difficulty curve actually going up as the game progresses). Not sure if that would actually work but it would be a novel idea (and if it turns out that it doesn't work, one could always give him some early nano-tech prototypes or something to gain new abilities). Then, the last mission could be with an older jensen (think Ezio style in AC:Revelation) in 2152 on Liberty Island. Your job: Blow up the Statue of Liberty. After that, make a remake of Deus Ex 1 and we are set for the next couple of years. That would be my dream.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by azarhal on Jan 24, 2020 15:59:29 GMT
My favorite example of this unfortunately is no longer there in CE. But in the original game, when you go to your apartment in Detroit, you can walk up to the other locked doors on your floor and you can listen to what happens inside. Usually it's just a tv playing or something but in one case, you can overhear the muffled argument of a married couple, where the guy got augmented because otherwise he would have lost his job but now his wife became estranged to him and wants to leave him because she is too freaked out by his artificial body parts That scene, well audio, is still in the director version (on PC at least). I had it a few night ago in my current playthrough, the first time I went to the appartement.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 24, 2020 16:09:41 GMT
That scene, well audio, is still in the director version (on PC at least). I had it a few night ago in my current playthrough, the first time I went to the appartement. Really? Hmm, maybe I had a bug. I went to every door and didn't find it. Judging from your aother posts, I assume this was also during your first Detroit visit, right? 'Cause when I didn't get it, I thought maybe it only happens when you are there for the second time or something. Anyway, nice to hear it's still around somehow.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 24, 2020 20:43:46 GMT
Sorry for the wall of text but Human Revolution cannot be praised enough. No problem - but now I want another replay. I'm sure there are books I haven't read, or haven't read closely enough
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 24, 2020 20:47:50 GMT
Sorry for the wall of text but Human Revolution cannot be praised enough. No problem - but now I want another replay. I'm sure there are books I haven't read, or haven't read closely enough
If you do another PT and if you don't have it yet, go for the "doctorate" achievement. Those are the coolest ebooks anyway. Here is a guide on how to find them all. Some of them are pretty well hidden:
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 24, 2020 20:49:57 GMT
No problem - but now I want another replay. I'm sure there are books I haven't read, or haven't read closely enough
If you do another PT and if you don't have it yet, go for the "doctorate" achievement. Those are the coolest ebooks anyway. Here is a guide on how to find them all. Some of them are pretty well hidden: I already have all achievements for the game - possibly the only game where I managed that. I just don't recall if I actually read all these books, since I'm sometimes in a flow of playing that I put off reading the material I find.
Edit: "Factory Zero" was really hard to get, but as opposed to many difficult achievements in other games, it was also an interesting challenge. The second most difficult might've been playing a complete game on the highest difficulty, and all because of the fight at the crashed helicopter.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 24, 2020 20:53:25 GMT
If you do another PT and if you don't have it yet, go for the "doctorate" achievement. Those are the coolest ebooks anyway. Here is a guide on how to find them all. Some of them are pretty well hidden: I already have all achievements for the game - possibly the only game where I managed that. I just don't recall if I actually read all these books, since I'm sometimes in a flow of playing that I put off reading the material I find.
Edit: "Factory Zero" was really hard to get, but as opposed to many difficult achievements in other games, it was also an interesting challenge.
Yea, I know what you mean. Unfortunately, unlike emails, ebooks will not appear in you pocket secretary at all, so you have to read them then and there and can't do it later (well, unless you go to the Deus Ex wiki on the internet of course.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 24, 2020 20:55:02 GMT
I already have all achievements for the game - possibly the only game where I managed that. I just don't recall if I actually read all these books, since I'm sometimes in a flow of playing that I put off reading the material I find.
Edit: "Factory Zero" was really hard to get, but as opposed to many difficult achievements in other games, it was also an interesting challenge.
Yea, I know what you mean. Unfortunately, unlike emails, ebooks will not appear in you pocket secretary at all, so you have to read them then and there and can't do it later (well, unless you go to the Deus Ex wiki on the internet of course. I appear to recall that the books are archived and you can read them later. A moment.....I'll check that.
Edit: Yes, you can switch between emails and ebooks in your media log.
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