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Post by Stinja on Apr 21, 2017 6:39:32 GMT
Given you can only equip one gear item, I do think having a much bigger buff would be good for kit diversity.
Imagine if they keep weapons weak, but the Combative Upgrade gave 75% weapon damage (to appropriate weapons); Tech/Biotic have 75% damage; you could now have a choice in individual kits.
Want to be a melee vanguard? Take Juggers. Want to be a biotic boom vanguard? Take Bio Amp. or be a weapons platform Kroguard.
Sure there may be one "best choice" for some kits, but those that can build different ways would play differently just by swapping gear and speccing differently.
*may still need buffs to some areas even with huge gear buffs.
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TormDK
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Post by TormDK on Apr 21, 2017 7:46:03 GMT
I'm on board with the Adaptive War Amp and and Engineering Kit buffs. But the Combatives Upgrade is a bit too much. 25% more damage would be super meta, and while many weapons wouldn't even be viable with +25%, I think it would be too large of a bonus for Equipment. We'll like be getting the Guerrilla Upgrade (sniper+pistol damage) next week, and traditionally gear bonuses have been paired like this. I could see +15% being fine for these. EDIT: Also keep in mind there can be copious amounts of melee damage bonuses in a character's passives, whereas the highest raw weapon damage bonus is 25% for kroguard and human vanguard. Sentinel can get +28% Weapon damage, thats the highest I've seen across the board. I play Soldier classes almost exclusively (dat Turbo Charge ) because I've always enjoyed the gunplay more than the powers play in ME3MP (HERESY, I know) and with the current weapons damage, +25% is not alot. HOWEVER - I would HIGHLY encourage Bioware to be more specific in what weapon buffs the various classes get. As an example; why should sniper rifles be buffed by a class' passives that evolves around automatic fire? Going with specific weapon classes would allow for higher bonuses to the classes where needed. They could make the sentinel the "heavy weapons" platform, and increase accuraccy and stability for ARs/LMGs like Soned and Revenant, enough that they might even become worthwhile to actually use. Unfortunately I also think that the train has left the station for that sort of thinking - the game as is is live, expecting large overhauls of the systems in play is likely not going to happen. So it would be feedback for the next iteration.
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LemurFromTheId
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Post by LemurFromTheId on Apr 21, 2017 8:03:49 GMT
I'm on board with the Adaptive War Amp and and Engineering Kit buffs. But the Combatives Upgrade is a bit too much. 25% more damage would be super meta, and while many weapons wouldn't even be viable with +25%, I think it would be too large of a bonus for Equipment. We'll like be getting the Guerrilla Upgrade (sniper+pistol damage) next week, and traditionally gear bonuses have been paired like this. I could see +15% being fine for these. EDIT: Also keep in mind there can be copious amounts of melee damage bonuses in a character's passives, whereas the highest raw weapon damage bonus is 25% for kroguard and human vanguard. Sentinel can get +28% Weapon damage, thats the highest I've seen across the board. I play Soldier classes almost exclusively (dat Turbo Charge ) because I've always enjoyed the gunplay more than the powers play in ME3MP (HERESY, I know) and with the current weapons damage, +25% is not alot. HOWEVER - I would HIGHLY encourage Bioware to be more specific in what weapon buffs the various classes get. As an example; why should sniper rifles be buffed by a class' passives that evolves around automatic fire? Going with specific weapon classes would allow for higher bonuses to the classes where needed. They could make the sentinel the "heavy weapons" platform, and increase accuraccy and stability for ARs/LMGs like Soned and Revenant, enough that they might even become worthwhile to actually use. Unfortunately I also think that the train has left the station for that sort of thinking - the game as is is live, expecting large overhauls of the systems in play is likely not going to happen. So it would be feedback for the next iteration. By far the single most important reason I love ME multiplayer is the variety, the way you can effectively combine so many different classes, builds and weapons. So... you'd take that away? No more shotgun adepts, no infiltrators with high-powered pistols, no engineers with sniper rifles? You'd have every good sentinel build use the same type of weapon? No thanks.
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TormDK
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Post by TormDK on Apr 21, 2017 8:24:12 GMT
Sentinel can get +28% Weapon damage, thats the highest I've seen across the board. I play Soldier classes almost exclusively (dat Turbo Charge ) because I've always enjoyed the gunplay more than the powers play in ME3MP (HERESY, I know) and with the current weapons damage, +25% is not alot. HOWEVER - I would HIGHLY encourage Bioware to be more specific in what weapon buffs the various classes get. As an example; why should sniper rifles be buffed by a class' passives that evolves around automatic fire? Going with specific weapon classes would allow for higher bonuses to the classes where needed. They could make the sentinel the "heavy weapons" platform, and increase accuraccy and stability for ARs/LMGs like Soned and Revenant, enough that they might even become worthwhile to actually use. Unfortunately I also think that the train has left the station for that sort of thinking - the game as is is live, expecting large overhauls of the systems in play is likely not going to happen. So it would be feedback for the next iteration. By far the single most important reason I love ME multiplayer is the variety, the way you can effectively combine so many different classes, builds and weapons. So... you'd take that away? No more shotgun adepts, no infiltrators with high-powered pistols, no engineers with sniper rifles? You'd have every good sentinel build use the same type of weapon? No thanks. You are reading things into it that I did not say. But yes, I would define weapons to classes in a larger degree than is done today, in order to buff said class with said weapon catagory by a larger degree, than these generic weapon buffs that ultimately fall short.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 8:46:31 GMT
Im waiting on armored compartments to go on my human infiltrator with vanquisher X.
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LemurFromTheId
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Post by LemurFromTheId on Apr 21, 2017 8:49:32 GMT
By far the single most important reason I love ME multiplayer is the variety, the way you can effectively combine so many different classes, builds and weapons. So... you'd take that away? No more shotgun adepts, no infiltrators with high-powered pistols, no engineers with sniper rifles? You'd have every good sentinel build use the same type of weapon? No thanks. You are reading things into it that I did not say. But yes, I would define weapons to classes in a larger degree than is done today, in order to buff said class with said weapon catagory by a larger degree, than these generic weapon buffs that ultimately fall short. A bonus to a specific weapon category is conceptually the same thing as penalising the use of any other weapon category. That inevitably leads to diminished variety and is not something I want to see. You're free to disagree.
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Post by TormDK on Apr 21, 2017 9:05:22 GMT
You are reading things into it that I did not say. But yes, I would define weapons to classes in a larger degree than is done today, in order to buff said class with said weapon catagory by a larger degree, than these generic weapon buffs that ultimately fall short. A bonus to a specific weapon category is conceptually the same thing as penalising the use of any other weapon category. That inevitably leads to diminished variety and is not something I want to see. You're free to disagree. Yup, we're in disagreement - but that is fine. I'm more of a set "Roles" guy, than anything else, so I don't really want everyone to be able to do everything at the same level. I'm not a huge fan of sniper rifles on Soldiers for instance (I only use the raptor as there is no decent kinetic automatic AR alternative currently), but their abilities and boni currently gives the biggest bang for the buck on weapons which already performs well, because of the generic nature of the class weapon passives. By going in a specific weapon class direction, it would discourage too much use of what I consider out of class weapons. While a bit of a clutch class, the Turian Ghost Infiltrator did this in ME3MP with buffs to assault rifles when cloaking, I don't see a reason why it couldn't be done more wide spread across the classes.
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Post by R1Outcast on Apr 21, 2017 9:21:19 GMT
It might seem like a nice, rewarding thing to give players bonuses to certain aspects, but what that also means is that anything that can't get a bonus is effectively penalized by this system. Yeah, it's cool that you can get a bonus to all weapon damage if you equip both a pistol and a sniper rifle. But what if you wanted to equip both a shotgun and a pistol? Why is that combination such an evil thing that it must be discouraged? You misread the op. I said shotguns should be included with the Combatives Kit. Currently, Vanquisher > all; and there's really no tactical reason to take anything other than a sniper into a match. Gear can be a good thing if done correctly, and if balanced (I know, balance isn't something this game does too well unfortunately). Having a gear piece that gives a substantial bonus to biotic or tech powers, would make biotic/tech classes able to stand on their own without the need to carry a Vanquisher. I also wish we could go back to gaining recharge speed when carrying lighter weapons, as that would further entice people to carry something other than a Vanquisher/sniper...but that's another discussion. Capping recharge speed at 100% was a bad idea...biotic/tech classes should benefit from a lighter weapon loadout. The bonus from Juggernaut Shield is just too superior to the other gear pieces to justify wearing them. Not all classes focus on melee, but every class has access to melee attacks...and when they do use melee, they're face-t-face with an enemy so it could mean life or death. Giving up +75% melee damage and 10% shields to gain +15% biotic damage is a bad choice, even for biotic oriented classes. However, giving up +75% melee and +10% shields to gain +25% biotic damage and duration; and +15% biotic power recharge, would make it a more attractive and viable option.
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 21, 2017 10:23:59 GMT
Yep,,, exactly what I was thinking. They're terrible how they are now. Sure, they cost less mission points than the Juggernaut Shield, but it's not like points are hard to come by.
More damage would be great and lowering cooldowns would be a huge bonus for power users. It's ridiculous that the Krogan Engineer gets like one weak combo and then is pretty much defenseless for the next 8-9 seconds. There's a reason why Asari Adept is fun to play and actually a decent class- lance spam.
A lot of weapons in the game need a boost, but at this point I think powers are in dire need of help the most. Even some normally bad weapons can be made good by the right class, but no class can make powers good.
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Tigger
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Post by Tigger on Apr 21, 2017 10:39:54 GMT
Juggernaut Shield should be 50% melee and 25% shields. The rest will be fine if/when they buff the weapons and powers themselves.
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Post by cryosferon on Apr 21, 2017 11:03:10 GMT
while I 100% agree this type of gear should be buffed, I'd warn of bringing it up to Juggernaut-level because this would make those decisions in the build trees trivial in comparison. Everybody would go for the other option there (preferrably utility) and ignore damage (while wearing the 75% gear piece) since all these values are additive anyway.
So I'd say bring both these fields (gear + build trees) to the vicinity of like 50% and not just the gear to 75%
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megabeast37215
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Post by megabeast37215 on Apr 21, 2017 12:02:36 GMT
I don't get why everyone thinks Juggernaut shield is so amazing. Does it give the largest mathematical boost? Yes. Is every character interested in melee? No. Is 10% shields worth dick when your base shields are 250? Fuck no. So.. it isn't like Juggernaut Shield is so incredible that it goes on everything. The +15% gears are fine, and I'm glad we have them. 15% damage is a lot more useful than 10% shields and some giant melee buff. ..but I'd trade every single one of them for Geth Scanner. Would you ever not put it on a melee build? Can you say the same for any of the other equipment on any build type? I would put it on every melee build.. yes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 12:31:54 GMT
I don't get why everyone thinks Juggernaut shield is so amazing. Does it give the largest mathematical boost? Yes. Is every character interested in melee? No. Is 10% shields worth dick when your base shields are 250? Fuck no. So.. it isn't like Juggernaut Shield is so incredible that it goes on everything. The +15% gears are fine, and I'm glad we have them. 15% damage is a lot more useful than 10% shields and some giant melee buff. ..but I'd trade every single one of them for Geth Scanner. This and for added reason that if a non-melee adept or engineer finds himself in a melee situation, you don't have to melee your way out. Jetpack anyone? Evading melee enemies has never been easier.
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Post by varicite on Apr 21, 2017 13:15:06 GMT
I'm honestly curious how defense / armor effects melee as compared to weapons and powers.
The melee bonuses are always much larger than the power / weapon bonuses, and I always assumed that this was because melee is more adversely affected by defense / armor than the other methods of damaging enemies, in addition to having to leave cover to properly utilize a melee build.
Still, the other equipment outside of Juggernaut Shield have been pretty lackluster (especially since weapons / powers are ALREADY really weak compared to punching shit in the face).
It feels like there was an intended balance between these damage types at some point, but somewhere down the line literally everybody at Bioware forgot that balance was even an issue.
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R1Outcast
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Post by R1Outcast on Apr 22, 2017 17:49:08 GMT
Shameless bump just in case anyone from Bioware actually reads these forums and considers our ideas.
I don't understand why the official forums were abandoned anyway...seems like a really shortsighted decision.
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Post by pantherdane on Apr 22, 2017 20:04:00 GMT
so the last listed item will be available next week. what happens the NEXT week? I expect thats when level 2 will come out and it will upgrade each one, a week at a time.after that, level 3 and so on.
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 22, 2017 20:20:11 GMT
I want an equipment kit that provides permanent special ammo of a certain type. I just hate the ammo consumables when previous games had them as a skill or mod. Heavy gun using classes are at a bit of a disadvantage because most of their priming comes from their weapons (or at least for Soldiers) and they end up going through consumables really fast. But... I'm sure that won't change. Gotta make people buy those packages!
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Post by nucleartech76 on Apr 22, 2017 20:36:00 GMT
I don't get why everyone thinks Juggernaut shield is so amazing. Does it give the largest mathematical boost? Yes. Is every character interested in melee? No. Is 10% shields worth dick when your base shields are 250? Fuck no. So.. it isn't like Juggernaut Shield is so incredible that it goes on everything. The +15% gears are fine, and I'm glad we have them. 15% damage is a lot more useful than 10% shields and some giant melee buff. ..but I'd trade every single one of them for Geth Scanner. Its not the end all for every kit but it is a huge bonus for melee focused builds in a game that melee is one of the more effective attacks. It's a huge bonus to any melee focused kit and the biotic and engineering bonuses are rather paltry IMO. I just think they could easily get away with a buff to those two equipment pieces. With amps and gear and passive damages bonuses you do begin to see some success but still we're not where I think we need to be.
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Post by nucleartech76 on Apr 22, 2017 20:37:34 GMT
Given you can only equip one gear item, I do think having a much bigger buff would be good for kit diversity. Imagine if they keep weapons weak, but the Combative Upgrade gave 75% weapon damage (to appropriate weapons); Tech/Biotic have 75% damage; you could now have a choice in individual kits. Want to be a melee vanguard? Take Juggers. Want to be a biotic boom vanguard? Take Bio Amp. or be a weapons platform Kroguard. Sure there may be one "best choice" for some kits, but those that can build different ways would play differently just by swapping gear and speccing differently. *may still need buffs to some areas even with huge gear buffs. 75% would be too high on weapon damage IMO. Powers need more bonuses or cooldown as well as damage bonuses tied to them.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 22, 2017 20:42:45 GMT
Is there a kit to get rid of a painful giant sinus headache. heh
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Post by Wynne on Apr 27, 2017 6:30:49 GMT
I use the Juggernaut Shield on every character--not necessarily always for the melee damage, and always spec for as much shielding as possible, because for some reason I feel like every character's shields are made of tissue paper even on Bronze. I don't like that feeling, so I just pile every tiny bonus on wherever I can.
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Post by varicite on Apr 27, 2017 13:44:31 GMT
so the last listed item will be available next week. what happens the NEXT week? I expect thats when level 2 will come out and it will upgrade each one, a week at a time.after that, level 3 and so on. The Juggernaut Shield will be available again, most likely. I don't find it a compelling enough reason to assume they will be upgradable just because the super buggy app shows a I by the names of the equipment, while the actual game does not.
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Post by dark8sage on Apr 27, 2017 13:48:11 GMT
So far, the equipable item kits are as follows: - Juggernaut Shield: +75% melee damage; +10% shields (total of +85% bonus stats).
- Adaptive War Amp: +15% biotic damage.
- Engineering Kit: +15% tech powers.
- Combatives Upgrade: +10% AR and pistol/smg damage.
I have a really hard time justifying equipping anything other than the Juggernaut Shield. It has a total of +85% worth of increases, both offensive and defensive. Other kits should be brought up a bit to get somewhat close to that level. My suggested changes: - Adaptive War Amp: +25% biotic damage and duration; +15% biotic power recharge.
- Engineering Kit: +25% tech damage and duration; +15% tech explosion damage.
- Combatives Upgrade: +25% AR, pistol/smg, and shotgun damage; +25% reload speed.
Currently, power damage is laughable when compared to sniper and melee damage, so a 25% power damage increase would not make power builds overpowered. Additionally, giving the other equippable kits a decent buff would make them a viable alternative to the Juggernaut Shield and also give power based classes more viability and individuality.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
Combativbes can't give a 25% boost, weapons are as overpowered as is compared to powers. Keep the 10% modifier, but also make it increase clip size by 25% and weight capacity by 50%. This will allow for usage by certain kits like vanguards who don't get weight capacity in their builds to be able to equip a piranha instead of a pistol/SMG without hurting their power recharge.
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Bzilla024
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Post by Bzilla024 on Apr 27, 2017 13:57:18 GMT
Meh, that is the last thing that needs to be balanced.
Before the equipment is even looked at for tweaking, the powers/weapons first need to be tweaked.
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 27, 2017 14:47:22 GMT
The Juggernaut Shields buff to melee wouldn't be big issue if it wasn't for the fact that melee is already really strong when built for it. A melee character without the shield is probably as effective, if not more so, than a power character with their equipment. The shield just makes it overkill. Gladiator can two shot red health mobs on Gold and one shot with Pull.
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