zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 22:12:55 GMT
So since misery loves company I wonder how many others have the game but put literally 10x more time onto these boards than playing it. I'm ordering pizza then playing the game for 5+ hours tonight to make up for that silliness. I'm glad to hear you can flirt with Drack. Even if he turns you down that's awesome. Personally I didn't like the couple minutes I've seen him so far but the first impression was hostile to say the least, but it's still awesome.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 21:58:35 GMT
I don't subscribe to the "bash Kotaku" meme and I'm thrilled Patricia is researching this. I wish I understood the data mining better to explain it more, but I only have a basic grasp on it and the posts are buried under thousands (literally) of others. Most of the Kotaku hate seems to come from the gamergate propaganda and people who don't understand or don't like that it's a blog that has opinion pieces mixed in. "Gaydar" doesn't really exist. It's usually just people subconsciously projecting stereotypes on others. Of course, some of the time you're going to be right with that but there's no real way to figure out whether a guy is attracted to other men or not short of a) asking them (assuming they won't lie about it) or putting some gay porn in front of them and monitoring their brain activity or measuring their physical level of arousal. I've had 3 homosexual friends (all male) tell me they definitely had a gaydar or spider sense of other homosexuals, I doubt they were all messing with me. My lesbian friends seem to agree with you though. None of them seem to have a very strong lesbian radar. Hell, one time, my best friend (an actual homosexual) and I went to a night club pretending to be a couple, for shits and giggles, mostly because we wanted to test out how the women would react if we told them I was bisexual and in an open relationship with my gay friend. All the women swallowed the lie completely and for some stupid-ass reason they were all over us (which I obviously enjoyed, my friend did not). Until one dude approached me in private and said "I'm on to you two, you aren't actually gay, and you aren't actually a couple." To which I replied: "Mind your own business, we're obviously gay." To which he replied: "Yeah, your friend is obviously gay, but you are faking it, I can tell, us gay men can tell, real recognize real, and you are definitely not really gay." Meh, maybe I was overplaying it, even though I wasn't even really playing anything, I was just acting as myself pretending to be in a relationship with my best friend for the lulz, to troll some women. Dunno why that gay dude was so butt hurt though. Maybe he thought I was "appropriating" his sexuality, if such a thing is even possible. Guy needs to learn to take a joke tbh. Obviously my gay friend liked it. In fact, he was the one who originally came up with this idea. Anyway, the reason why I tell you this dumb story is because that event kinda convinced me that the "gaydar" is pretty real. Sometimes stereotypes happen. They are based on real stuff after all. That doesn't mean they always are true though. Frankly I'm closeted in real life and couldn't tell you anything about how gay guys supposedly act.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 20:07:49 GMT
I actually really like the idea of expanding Reyes' character in a story DLC. (And the idea of having him as a squadmate in the next game - with a unique face, please.) Of course, if they go down that road, they'll also have to add more content to his and Gil's romances via patch otherwise it'd just be them skimping on the M/M content in the full game only to sell it to us for an extra fee which wouldn't be a good look. That'd be like "yeah, everyone got theirs for "free" but you gays have to pay extra for equal treatment". So anything they do as paid DLC can really only be sth they do on top of some sort of free patch. (Not that I'm actually getting my hopes up that that either is going to happen.) Well, I'm not going to put on stipulations, because I think a free update is a pipe dream. The only way I think we'll get expanded content is if it's bundled with DLC that will appeal to others for different reasons. I think the only way Gil gets more content is if they do a Citadel type DLC with content for everyone. They said they take this "very, very seriously." We'll see what happens. As to the other stuff? It depends on how much EA is willing to spend for fixing the PR situation. I'm not sure how the game is selling. Often internet backlash doesn't have a one to one link to actual sales. See No Man's Sky, which continued to be a best seller all through the end of last year.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 19:48:44 GMT
Okay I decided to send an email to Patricia of Kotaku. Did I get anything wildly wrong in trying to summarize the situation? Hello, Off and on I've been considering responding to this. I don't tend to broadcast which way I swing so while I'm not closeted I don't go out of my way to discuss it either. In the end I decided to reply though. Sorry if this is too long to read. I'll go over two things, first about Jaal then the general situation. I'll admit while I felt snubbed the Twitter campaign surprised me: twitter.com/hashtag/makejaalbi?f=tweets&vertical=defaultThere are a few key facts shaping my thoughts on the #MakeJaalBi Twitter thing and general outrage. Firstly when they first unveiled Jaal there was some general hype over a new alien, but in the time between that and release they teased him incessantly. What made this weird is they said they wouldn't talk about which way characters swing, or whether they could be romanced in game, yet kept the teasing. Example: (In combination with the Aaryn Flynn tweet it's replying to.) Now nothing in that teasing says who it's directed to but when specifically asked they always said they couldn't say. There are many other tweets and statements spoiling bits and pieces of the character's personality that made people freak out with hype too. So when the early access started people data mined, and even posters on the BSN fan boards who urged caution thought he was definitely bi. A random sample of the jubilation: bsn.boards.net/post/409218/threadA post explaining with pictures (under the spoiler) why they thought he's bi (note that it's right for everyone else): bsn.boards.net/post/408420/threadThen around Saturday they couldn't find any voice files, so people started to worry (random example of the rising panic): bsn.boards.net/post/422589/threadIf I understand the data mining topic (and a disclaimer that I might not 100% have a handle on it) Jaal is bi in the code with his dialogs having Scott as a valid romance partner, except it turns out his first flirt was cut from the game for both Sara and Scott. Some were speculating the game treats it as if Sara did flirt and that Scott did not, and that if Scott did it would probably break due to incomplete data. *Regardless* of any of that though, it's strange that Jaal's files look like he's bi and the mining was correct for everyone else. To make matters worse, even several reviews suggested Jaal was bi. It turns out they probably confused friendship stuff with romance. They (developers) said they wouldn't have characters string people along with flirts if there was no chance, but it turns out Scott can't attempt to flirt at all. For the other straight characters, it's possible to be told by the characters they aren't interested. Just when they decided to make Jaal straight is a huge question mark because of all that. Lastly on the Jaal topic when you see usernames with "†" tacked on on the BSN fan boards it's due to the IGN guide. When the embargo lifted IGN very quickly put a guide up and the romance section got a few things wrong. Those were quickly corrected, and soon " †" appeared by characters IGN wasn't sure about. Hilariously for a time that included Liam who was known to be straight for a long time. Jaal had the "†" by his name for quite some time and it wasn't until an anonymous dev told a couple reviewers that he's straight that people were sure what the truth was, because the Prima guide actually erroneously said Kaiden was straight in Mass Effect 3. It became something of a small meme to include "†" in the username in sarcastic response to the situation. Now to be fair to the IGN editor, she very quickly said she'd find out if Jaal was straight asap while that was going on. Okay onto the situation in general, there are a few factors and not everyone feels exactly the same way. There is a certain media pattern when trying not to annoy straight males . I'm not saying EA/Bioware did this but it's a laundry list and every check box (other than not having LGBT characters at all) was checked: 1.) All nudity is either in the context of m/f or f/f scenes, or is played for laughs. Female nudity being for titillation and male nudity being for laughs is a long standing pattern in media in general. 2.) This is the third or fourth time a character looked to be bi in the files but turned out straight for Bioware. I don't know how many of those were confirmed directly by Bioware though. I think it's the third time for Mass Effect, the first in the first game the second with Thane in the second game. They actually did make Kaiden bi in Mass Effect 3, unlike in the first game. 3.) All m/m romantic prospects in the game do not use uniquely modeled faces. 4.) Of the two, neither is in the squad and one of them isn't even on the Tempest. 5.) In the squad there are f/f relationships. It may be unfair, but it could be taken the wrong way as if they were trying to not gross out straight males with m/m content, while (perhaps unfairly to straight and bi males) f/f is assumed to be titillating for some of them. 6.) The achievement thing I don't personally take issue with but it's just another thing on the list. Of the two potential m/m romances, I'm not sure if both even count for the achievement. They may, but even if they did that's 2/3. Like I said I don't personally take issue with it and it's just one of many things. Jaal and the achievement get the most attention when it's the overall situation that is so infuriating. Here is a fan chart laying everything out pattern wise: Where the creator posted it: bsn.boards.net/post/460984/threadDirect link: pbs.twimg.com/media/C7tRWyqVAAAk-NB.jpg:largeNote there is an old version of that chart floating around, with the mistake they note in the post I linked to. It seems to link to a twitter image, but I don't know the creator's twitter to get the actual Tweet. There seems to be clear circumstantial bias against m/m relationships in the Mass Effect series even while strides have been made for inclusion, and that as a whole is what is fueling the achievement drama and #MakeJaalBi. If you actually made it through that thanks. I know it was probably overly long. Here's where she asked: I forgot to link to this topic. That's a major facepalm for me. Granted it's such a wall a text as is I don't know if she could read it.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 17:27:57 GMT
I think if there were a way to indicate squadmates or something that would really help too. It'd put the one squadmate situation really in focus. It's a good chart, thanks for making it! Really sad though. Yes, exactly, the only requisite for me it's at least one squadmate, and they didn't even let me ride the krogan... LOL! Man that's not on the level of monocle rat lobster but I did laugh in real life.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 17:08:05 GMT
Gay people are rare. Personally I have no problem with characters being bisexual instead. It's a question of inclusion vs. fairness to the actual players. I don't think the characters in the game rarely being LGBT is a problem. That's just life. That's how things are. When the planets align in such a way that it's clear m/m was sidelined however for one reason or another, I have a problem with that. Especially if they turned Jaal straight later in development, which I wish they would say something about whether or not it happened. If there are a disproportionate amount of gay characters over the course of the series, as much as I hate to say it the anti-SJW people that always rage over their inclusion have a point. Not a big one, but a point. We're rare. The game worlds don't need to be a fantasy that changes that. It just should be fair. Though just like I said earlier somehow bisexual people seem to be ignored when statistics come up much of the time, possibly because sexual attraction isn't all or nothing most of the time, just enough in one direction for someone to consider themselves straight or gay. I'd say I'm probably like 85% in the direction of guys for example. That's high enough for me to consider myself swinging one way. And yeah people should not hesitate to bring up other characters and other topics here. The bitterness may drown it out sometimes but that doesn't mean conversation can't happen. Then again I've tried to bring up Peebee a couple times to see if the hate directed in her direction is less post release, and as far as I know I haven't had much success there. Even if I got replies though that's still a brief lull in the "salt mine" or whatever you want to call it. Edit: Didn't mean to double post. The extremely important question is the files. Why does he look bi in the files? If he was going to be bi originally, when did they decide to not do it? Because if he was going to be bi and planned to be bi and later in the process they scrapped it I'd say it's more changing him back. It's true on the Cora front and such, but the disparity problem isn't there nearly on the same level. I'm not saying it's wrong for others to be upset or want things, but I don't think it's such a one to one situation that them addressing this would be quite as catastrophic. If they cut him being bi extremely early they should just say it. It's just so very questionable, because if they really did scrap the first flirt specifically to disable m/m without having to change everything else, that would be quite later in development I would think. I at least want them to say something. Refusing to answer for months while claiming the game won't string you along when it does to the point several reviewers thought he was bi is just incredibly wrong. It's never okay to group people together like that. People are not hive minds and people have their own opinions. I can't speak about lesbians (or bisexual women) and I can't speak for other guys other than myself. That said I've seen people actually want the "made for us" stereotypical gay romances even from the guys. It just rings to be exactly in line with their "it has to make sense" nonsense, as if sexuality simply must be a huge part of a character if they aren't straight. I find that irritating at best and insulting at worst. A character doesn't have to have A Very Special Episode type romance or follow stereotypes to not be straight in my opinion. It's one of the reasons I've become more passionate about this over time rather than less. But no, it's not safe to say all gay people would agree with me. Also, you didn't do on purpose of course but I notice bisexual people are often just forgotten on subjects like this. ...it's a flippant joke based on common sentiments that come up in LGBT romance discussions. People really need to start PMing people to check their meaning and intent before publicly declaring how offended (or 'offended') they are by something. My post was about the general subject not your post in particular. I was in no way upset or angry at your post. It actually took me a few re-reads of the reply to understand what you meant since at first I thought you meant the "has to make sense" thing the devs said.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 16:58:02 GMT
I'm afraid of one thing. If they make Jaal bi - how much do you want to bet people will yell at BW to make Cora (and maybe Liam) bi too? Because if BW listens to one thing, people will want another. And bi-Cora is equally hot topic to bi-Jaal. Yeah, making Jaal bi is a bit of a double-edged sword but it's the only possibility to have an M/M squadmate in the game. The alternative is to simply not have an M/M squadmate LI in the game. Maybe they could still at least make the people who wanted an M/M alien LI happy by making one of the other non-squadmate aliens (like Avitus or that one Angara whom people have mentioned a few times) available as an LI in addition to expanding Reyes' and Gil's romances like I explained in the post above. (Only if that character is already know to be gay/bi or if we don't know what their orientation is, of course.) The extremely important question is the files. Why does he look bi in the files? If he was going to be bi originally, when did they decide to not do it? Because if he was going to be bi and planned to be bi and later in the process they scrapped it I'd say it's more changing him back. It's true on the Cora front and such, but the disparity problem isn't there nearly on the same level. I'm not saying it's wrong for others to be upset or want things, but I don't think it's such a one to one situation that them addressing this would be quite as catastrophic. If they cut him being bi extremely early they should just say it. It's just so very questionable, because if they really did scrap the first flirt specifically to disable m/m without having to change everything else, that would be quite later in development I would think. I at least want them to say something. Refusing to answer for months while claiming the game won't string you along when it does to the point several reviewers thought he was bi is just incredibly wrong. So basically lesbians want a MORE stereotypical romance and gay guys want a LESS stereotypical romance (who's actually on the damn team and isn't totally throwaway to the plot). Make it happen Biunaware. It's never okay to group people together like that. People are not hive minds and people have their own opinions. I can't speak about lesbians (or bisexual women) and I can't speak for other guys other than myself. That said I've seen people actually want the "made for us" stereotypical gay romances even from the guys. It just rings to be exactly in line with their "it has to make sense" nonsense, as if sexuality simply must be a huge part of a character if they aren't straight. I find that irritating at best and insulting at worst. A character doesn't have to have A Very Special Episode type romance or follow stereotypes to not be straight in my opinion. It's one of the reasons I've become more passionate about this over time rather than less. But no, it's not safe to say all gay people would agree with me. Also, you didn't do it on purpose of course but I notice bisexual people are often just forgotten on subjects like this.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 3:16:45 GMT
I don't really agree that Jaal's character is so defined as straight that he can't be bi. Just like neither is Cora. Their backgrounds aren't so ingrained in sexuality really. In fact, without them telling you they are straight/bi/gay w/e you would probably have no idea nor would care. I think people put way too much importance on sexuality. It only defines who you have sex or romantic relationships with that's it. It doesn't change who you are as a person on a fundamental level. I feel bad if this chatter makes @beautesombre uncomfortable, but I'd had that chip on my shoulder the whole time. Part of the ever increasing alarm at the "it has to make sense" comment from the developers. I haven't seen his entire romance to know what she's talking about, but the entire time even weeks ago some were saying he just seems too good with the ladies to possibly be bi. It just rubbed me entirely the wrong way, as if that kind of character couldn't possibly be bi or appeal to guys. Without context I can't know the true reasons, so I want to be clear when I often get sarcastic about that it's directed at those posts from weeks ago and the general idea of it and not simply at people who disagree. I say that because I want to make it clear I have no hostility to people who think Jaal should be straight. It's okay for people to disagree.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 3:09:58 GMT
Furthermore, I've shared personal experiences as a lesbian about lesbian fetishism coming from straight men, only for certain posters to be extremely dismissive. I just wanted to ask whether those were deleted, since those certainly weren't "opinions" and were actually pretty homophobic. If so, I would like to thank you for doing so. I know I've said I don't find it intrinsically bad for guys to find f/f stuff titillating but if I recall it was in the context of me not minding when women find m/m stuff cute/appealing. Something tells me the dismissive posts you are talking about went far beyond that though.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 3:05:27 GMT
Before things blew up on the m/m and/or Jaal topic here it surprised me how much hostility was directed at Peebee. Granted that has nothing on the snowballing chaos since last Saturday. I'll be honest. I want to come here to share my enjoyment of the romances in the game, but find myself constantly involved in the negative stuff and it's not fun. I also do not support making Jaal bi after what I have learned, so this place feels too hostile for me. I will just talk about the romances in the character threads. Take care everyone! This makes me glad I didn't post in the Jaal topic. I wanted to say how nice it is at least those who can romance Jaal like him as much as they hyped him, but that lingering bitterness risked even unintentionally slipping through. It's important to remember the really insulting people are the minority though, at least. It's okay for people to disagree, and would be kind of boring if no one did.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 3:00:08 GMT
Man for that Kotaku thing, I wish I had the energy to collect everything. The bi things data mined, the dev promises that were broken about being able to not be strung along in game, the baiting, the laundry list of "just so happens" circumstances that exactly match what it looks like when keeping gay content off to the side or to not annoy straight guys, the three (or four) times a character was going to be bi from the looks of it only for them to change course before release. Again I'm not saying they did that, but it summarizing it all for her is the best way to do it I think because it's a cumulative thing not one issue. So, are we going to get strict with anyone that's negative at all about gay romances and LGBT posters, too? I'm suspect of the multiple scoldings we're getting about this after we had straight people telling us to stop whining and that we just have to deal with a "different opinion" if they say we should have romances or equal content. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess. These are two different things entirely. One is unrelated to another. It's never okay to be rude/dismissive to a group of people as a whole, and it's equally never okay to judge a group of people based on how some act. I've seen posts not only dismissive/hostile of straight guys, but also hostile to women who like the m/m romances. Neither of those things are nice.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 25, 2017 2:11:26 GMT
I'm not far into the game but I actually like Peebee so far. I'm not interested in females (edit: sexually that is that sounded bad), but if this was like ME1 I'd probably have Scott head in her direction. It's funny even though they added m/m stuff in ME3, when I get around to it I'm not going to have my Shepherd break up with Liara. I know her romance is polarizing but I liked her, bizarre jealousy aside. They are both straight, so Scott can't flirt with them. Scott should be able to flirt and get turned down. Like with all others. I still can't get over they strung people along for weeks/months and outright lied that you could find out relatively quickly definitively. Like seriously, did they give up on bi Jaal so recent they couldn't even add a rejection? The whole situation stinks there. I admit though, the Twitter thing surprises me. I'm not sure how much of the #MakeJaalBi thing is the same people spamming, but it's heartening at the least. I still can't believe they did that though, and I definitely can't understand how they just outright lied about characters making it clear quickly to not string people along. It's just so incredibly dishonest. I really want to know when they decided to abandon the bi thing. Was the game secretly in "rush to get it on on time" mode or something, and they didn't even know the features it would have at release, or didn't even know about Jaal? Man I'm glad to see the gushing in the Jaal topic though. I wanted to just say something positive but even while saying how much I liked how happy people were with him I just couldn't think of how to do it without snark at how I feel so strung along. So uncool. It just keeps taking me back to the "it has to make sense" comment. What a character can't be popular with the ladies and be bi at the same time? Is that just too hard to believe? It comes back to this quote though. If they do nothing else they should unbreak their promise. Because you know what? Not everyone follows these boards, and some of the Twitter comments are from people that had no idea he was straight get strung along all game long; pretty much exactly what they promised wouldn't happen. This is really interesting though: So evidently the guess that they were not allowed to speak about it at all was true, but that doesn't explain the teasing? If not for the fact people say EA has actively pushed to be inclusive I'd question if marketing had something to do with the end result that happened. Sorry it's probably been talked about a gazillion times, but I found that interesting. Edit: Intent: talk about the friendship system and how I like Peebee so far. Result: Most of the post is still whining.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 22:56:52 GMT
Isn't Shadowrun a 'modern' fantasy RPG series? I never played it but I thought it is.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 3:23:18 GMT
I really think it's unfortunate the achievement gets so much focus since the cumulative points are more important in my opinion. I guess it's easier to zero in on one thing as an example than to give the laundry list every time though. The only reason I've been replying to all of those people concerning the achievement is that it just seems so absurd to me that they can't recognize that simple unfairness. Oh I wasn't meaning to say there's anything wrong with the discussion. I just think the overall picture of everything combined is more sympathetic to people that know nothing about the situation alone. Heck even on the Jaal topic many have no idea about the teasing, etc.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 3:13:15 GMT
I really think it's unfortunate the achievement gets so much focus since the cumulative points are more important in my opinion. I guess it's easier to zero in on one thing as an example than to give the laundry list every time though.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 3:07:27 GMT
I'm going to shoot down that straw man and make it clear in no way do I think "straight guys" shouldn't complain. It's a disservice to the vast majority of them to try and imply those so paranoid of the SJW boogeyman that they actually thought they made female characters unattractive to them on purpose certainly don't represent most straight guys.
The points go far beyond the sex scenes so if people choose to ignore/not read them so be it. Making straw man arguments over and over again misrepresenting the reasoning behind the complaints doesn't make your argument stronger though. You can't make an argument by cherry picking a couple of the many, many factors that got people this upset cumulatively. I am very careful to say "I don't think they did this on purpose" when I give the laundry list of factors that add up to this.
Also for those of you chiming in that this doesn't even effect to give some words of support, thanks.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 2:56:27 GMT
... complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Sorry this is sort of OT but, what is the logic for this one? (I honestly don't get it.) It's the delusion that the SJW boogeyman is everywhere out to get straight white Christian males, so they make up and outright believe that they would make female characters 'ugly' and unattractive on purpose and cry wolf with SJW pretty much if any minority/female character has a role of any significance. Or in this case, claiming the visual issues that plague this game somehow are just to snub straight guys which is just... ugh. I don't mean the people in this topic in particular, but the mob of anti-SJW paranoia swoops in at the drop of a hat far more often and far more obnoxiously than misguided SJWs (which do exist, ranting about silly things like so-called cultural appropriation and ableism, ignoring intent when calling humor racist, and all kinds of other nitpicky things). As this topic his gone on though the points have been laid out and promptly ignored by some of the people unsympathetic. I mean the baiting is a fact. That happened. The lying about being turned down early on is a fact. The bi flags in the files being there is a fact. The fact this is like the third time a character was originally going to be bi but they scrapped it is also a fact. I'm not sure how true it is, but the people analyzing the files were saying it looked like if the Ryders could flirt, there was nothing to lock Scott out. By contrast other characters have rejections programmed in. I don't know the details of that though so I fully admit that. That is just one factor of many that got people in a frenzy though. Devoid of everything else I'd agree it would be wrong. For example on the topic of Garrus, if he's straight he's straight. I would never have joined a social campaign to ask for him to be bi. That wouldn't be right. Jaal though? They teased and teased and teased then lied about it being able to flirt and be shut down to not be strung along when even reviewers had no idea and several assumed Jaal is bi. All of the points add up to not only highlight the unfairness, but when combined with the bi flags in the files it's not the same thing as with a character like Garrus in my opinion. For someone without any knowledge of everything that went down I could understand thinking it's totally unreasonable. I'm not sure why some are outright ignoring that to turn the people they are mocking into caricatures. The irony is the "Hi by the way I'm transgender" and the creators seeming to think bi/homosexuality has to be some core part of a character's narrative are things that annoy almost everyone on all sides of the issue. The achievement itself doesn't even personally bother me. It's the combination of everything else. It really doesn't help they keep stringing people along too. They did so for months already, and are continuing to do so. They promised it's not just PR talk, so we'll see what happens. Obviously their hands are full with far more than this topic.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 0:47:43 GMT
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 0:42:12 GMT
We are, actually, talking about what is and isn't fair. Did you actually read what I posted? "We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention."I'm sorry if you feel differently. Oh no. Perhaps I should have worded that: rights and fairness are secondary to time and resources, and thus not the issue. You need to go a step further and identify what is the issue. It's not that Bioware intentionally neglected a part of their community and lied to people by having a lack of male-male romances, it's that time/resources were not managed in a way to be able to provide the same level of experience for all players... and you know what? That's okay. Shit happens, deadlines are missed, problems arise- but you are just assuming that Bioware is out to get you. You should read the 'things change', but why have a civil discussion when you just resort to pettiness? The fact the Bioware listens at all to people who act like you is worthy of praise. It's not just that though. They teased Jaal relentlessly letting people get excited for months as they said how awesome he is (and how he is awesome personality wise), all while refusing to say they were making him straight. They promised characters would make it clear they weren't interested early on after meeting them so people weren't strung along. Combine that with files in the game that show his romance dialog not just doesn't exclude Scott, but specifically allows him, shows it's possible he may have been close to already being bi. Then it all leads back to the LIE: You can't even flirt with him as Scott to be turned down. They lied about that. Strung people along for months, refused to say if he's straight, said you could find out quickly in game, then reviewers even as high profile as IGN had no freaking idea if he was straight or not. It took people falsely saying he's bi in reviews for an anonymous dev to spill the beans. That's just wrong on so many levels. It's a big question too how much did they get done with the Scott/Jaal design and why did they cut it? The really, really, really bitter part of me makes up junk like: Well we know he goes down on Sara. I guess that would just be way too icky if it was on Scott too? Because clearly m/m is so much more serious than m/f or f/f. Or worse, if the ESRB would have rated it AO if it was Scott in a scene like that. Keep in mind I admit that's silly conspiracy theory nonsense, however they should at least say something. Why does he show bi in the game files, and why can you not flirt to be turned down since they promised you wouldn't be strung along and that's what they did for months and then continued into the game itself. Vicex Or perhaps, when time and resources are scarce and shit happens and deadlines are missed, gay content shouldn't be the first thing on the cutting room floor? Just a thought. Again, you are assuming it was the first thing cut (which is very unlikely)- that Bioware is targeting certain player. Any so-called 'evidence' I've seen saying Bioware is discriminating against gay content is circumstantial at best. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be content equal for all players, I'm just saying that development of games isn't a perfect system, and unfortunately not everyone will be satisfied to their prior expectations- despite the developer making no promises to do otherwise. Sure, they may try, but you have to be at least a little forgiving. Mass Effect Andromeda is hardly a perfect game that just had polish done for the last 6 months where there would have been no excuse to lack the content. Circumstantial at best would be it happening on a couple points. It becomes a bit less so when it's over the course of four games and every single stereotypical "appeal to the straight males while minimizing what they may find icky" is hit. That's not just some, it is EVERY bullet point. Male nudity for laughs. All sex scenes avoiding m/m content. Same sex male content non-existent in the squad. Etc. it's been gone over many times. You'd have a point if it wasn't an ongoing thing, and even if they didn't do it on purpose it's terrible. And I stress again, the cherry on top is stringing people along about Jaal and lying that you wouldn't be strung along in game, all while the files show him as bi.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 22:27:21 GMT
Patching him is more realistic than adding more characters. That is especially considering the bi markers on the files. I wonder if they did do work with him before scraping it when it comes to Scott. Seriously I will be annoyed if they do not at least acknowledge those files and acknowledge they lied that you would get shut down quickly not strung along. Did they seriously give up on bi Jaal recent enough to not even add in rejection?? If the voicework is not already 100% there, they will need to have the VAs come back into the studio to record dialogue. Then they will need to change all the romance trigger files, and then completely animate the love scenes, including changing certain movements to make up for the height difference. Then they need to go through QA for clipping. Like, they're not going to do all that just to appease a specific subset of players they ignored in the first place. Don't get me wrong, it sucks and I agree , but they really can't to anything except know better next time. They said they are taking this very very seriously. I guess we'll see if it is just empty PR talk as they insist it isn't.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 22:22:08 GMT
Usually you don't though devs added some polyamorous options I think. Usually you just catch one that has good content. There wasn't one this time in m/m romances, that's the problem. Not liking something is not the same as not having it. I think this is what I mean when I say that people will never be satisfied. Jaal's files suggest he was going to be bi but even despite that they promised you could find out quickly and be told by the NPC they aren't interested. They lied. Gil has a character editor face that is a fact. There are no squad m/m potential romance interests. That is a fact. Sex scenes are exclusively in places that may titillate straight males and incidentally straight women and lesbians. Male nudity is played for laughs which is fine but it puts a spotlight on the disparity. They strung people along teasing Jaal on Twitter for months both male and female devs. That teasing combined with the lie about being turned down early after meeting NPCs is ridiculous. You should at least acknowledge there is more to this considering the facts.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 22:04:34 GMT
Anything today from the devs? Any word? Any care or concern? I know they are really busy but... I wasn't expecting to still be waiting... for a game that is already out eurgh I don't think they care enough to say anything, honestly. There really isn't anything they can do to fix the problem other than hope for more scenes as part of whatever DLC they have planned. Patching in Jaal is Bisexual is a huge undertaking and they won't release a free patch just for that. Honestly the best thing to do is to tell the devs how they messed up so they can be pressured to do better next time. Patching him is more realistic than adding more characters. That is especially considering the bi markers on the files. I wonder if they did do work with him before scraping it when it comes to Scott. Seriously I will be annoyed if they do not at least acknowledge those files and acknowledge they lied that you would get shut down quickly not strung along. Did they seriously give up on bi Jaal recent enough to not even add in rejection??
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 16:33:47 GMT
Much as I want to hear what they have to say about the m/m content, it definitely isn't, and shouldn't be, top priority what with all of the technical issues that still need addressing. If they do intend to provide more content via DLC then I don't expect to hear about it for a while. As much as I'm really shitty about everything, I don't really expect them to. Not with all the bugs, the programming issues, and some other weird errors that seem to keep pooing up in game. Well, I mean, like I said, I could forgive those. But it'll always be the minute amount of m/m representation that made me pissed. The constant stringing along then not taking about it is insane. They do it while teasing Jaal for weeks or months now here we go again. I at least want to hear why you can't so much as be turned down by Jaal and why the files look as they do.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 16:24:33 GMT
Hey I am happy they showed her NOT with PeeBee LOL I'm not. Every single trailer has been extremely heterosexual. This one is no different. I don't see a problem with that honestly. Most people are not LGBT. Being inclusive is more important than putting it in thier trailer in my opinion.
|
|
zeowik
N3
Posts: 292 Likes: 595
inherit
3340
0
595
zeowik
292
February 2017
zeowik
|
Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 12:58:35 GMT
People on Twitter are talking as if it is confirmed Jaal was to be bi originally. Are the files really that clear cut?
I see some mention voice already existing too but I thought voice files were never found? Are some just misinformed?
Either way they did outrageously tease and unfortunately broke the promise that you could find out quickly if you have no chance leading to the great review debacle. When even a site as large as IGN doesn't know yeah...
Edit: Obviously the above reply happened while I typed this post. I am stunned but in a positive way how every time I check the are more tweets.
|
|