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Post by phoray on May 27, 2017 12:10:05 GMT
But, the neutral zone just felt odd after all the time they spent together, and only by filling the bar in either direction, will they stand by Hawke. I think that's the main problem many people have with friendship/rivalry system. And I don't blame them. We got it in the longest - when it comes to timespan - game. It feels strange to be in middle zone after all those years. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't better if - by the Act 3 for example - some companions just left you, refused to go with you or you had to do something additional for them to keep them by your side if you didn't achieve certain friendship/rivalry level (Isabela kinda fits here already). Or something to do with those 2 3-years skips. What if, after each skip, certain, set value would be added to our chosen path? Like, pursuing rivalry with Fenris, but still not max? I'm certain you did something to piss him off during those 3 years, so here's +10 to rivalry at the start of next Act. Loose ideas and tbh I don't know how well those would work in game, but they could help dealing with that constant indifference. The system was geared to throw points at you of the kind that were the path you were on. A 3 year time jump and you'd get another chance to stop by with a gift. If you gave Fenris the sword or Isabella the ship in a bottle as an already rival, at the end of the conversation, you got rivalry points, not friendship. Same if you were on the friendship path. The sword you give Fenris actually reminds him of bad times. The ship in a bottle reminds Isabella she doesn't have a ship. But if you're friends, they find the gift cute, unusual, ironic. Rivals? Fenris practically throws that sword in your face.
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Post by Rascoth on May 27, 2017 12:47:17 GMT
I think that's the main problem many people have with friendship/rivalry system. And I don't blame them. We got it in the longest - when it comes to timespan - game. It feels strange to be in middle zone after all those years. Which makes me wonder if it wasn't better if - by the Act 3 for example - some companions just left you, refused to go with you or you had to do something additional for them to keep them by your side if you didn't achieve certain friendship/rivalry level (Isabela kinda fits here already). Or something to do with those 2 3-years skips. What if, after each skip, certain, set value would be added to our chosen path? Like, pursuing rivalry with Fenris, but still not max? I'm certain you did something to piss him off during those 3 years, so here's +10 to rivalry at the start of next Act. Loose ideas and tbh I don't know how well those would work in game, but they could help dealing with that constant indifference. The system was geared to throw points at you of the kind that were the path you were on. A 3 year time jump and you'd get another chance to stop by with a gift. If you gave Fenris the sword or Isabella the ship in a bottle as an already rival, at the end of the conversation, you got rivalry points, not friendship. Same if you were on the friendship path. The sword you give Fenris actually reminds him of bad times. The ship in a bottle reminds Isabella she doesn't have a ship. But if you're friends, they find the gift cute, unusual, ironic. Rivals? Fenris practically throws that sword in your face. Oh, I know that. It's one of the ways game tries to deal with duality of relationship system and I appreciate it has at least that. But 1) not everyone likes using those gifts (since they're artificial approval boosters), 2) they're missable (or in case of Anders' amulet, depending on your choices you may actually have no chance to get it) and 3) despite all that some people still have problems with gaining friendship/rivalry points, which means gifts are not enough.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on May 27, 2017 13:41:13 GMT
The system was geared to throw points at you of the kind that were the path you were on. A 3 year time jump and you'd get another chance to stop by with a gift. If you gave Fenris the sword or Isabella the ship in a bottle as an already rival, at the end of the conversation, you got rivalry points, not friendship. Same if you were on the friendship path. The sword you give Fenris actually reminds him of bad times. The ship in a bottle reminds Isabella she doesn't have a ship. But if you're friends, they find the gift cute, unusual, ironic. Rivals? Fenris practically throws that sword in your face. Oh, I know that. It's one of the ways game tries to deal with duality of relationship system and I appreciate it has at least that. But 1) not everyone likes using those gifts (since they're artificial approval boosters), 2) they're missable (or in case of Anders' amulet, depending on your choices you may actually have no chance to get it) and 3) despite all that some people still have problems with gaining friendship/rivalry points, which means gifts are not enough. DA2 these gifts are just for the easy friendship/rivalry. Every piece adds to the character's story. These not just as DAO the many trinkets for Morrigan. (In DAO the personalized gifts were brilliant idea – was interesting to find out, that Zevran would be happy with glove/boots, or Oops! This mirror! I must buy! Such a mirror could be been, what Flemeth took away from her!) So: the gifts aren't bad, I would like similar things in the future games.
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Post by Rascoth on May 27, 2017 13:53:08 GMT
Oh, I know that. It's one of the ways game tries to deal with duality of relationship system and I appreciate it has at least that. But 1) not everyone likes using those gifts (since they're artificial approval boosters), 2) they're missable (or in case of Anders' amulet, depending on your choices you may actually have no chance to get it) and 3) despite all that some people still have problems with gaining friendship/rivalry points, which means gifts are not enough. DA2 these gifts are just for the easy friendship/rivalry. Every piece adds to the character's story. These not just as DAO the many trinkets for Morrigan. (In DAO the personalized gifts were brilliant idea – was interesting to find out, that Zevran would be happy with glove/boots, or Oops! This mirror! I must buy! Such a mirror could be been, what Flemeth took away from her!) So: the gifts aren't bad, I would like similar things in the future games. Oh, I like them, just like I liked DAO/DAA gifts that were more story-related (like Antivan Leather Boots, Andraste's Grace or Ser Pounce-a-lot). Hell, I'll even admit playing with approval thanks to them. So I'm glad they're in game, but I know people that don't like them and don't use them. That's why I also like to include their perspective in my statements
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Post by Catilina on May 27, 2017 14:14:09 GMT
DA2 these gifts are just for the easy friendship/rivalry. Every piece adds to the character's story. These not just as DAO the many trinkets for Morrigan. (In DAO the personalized gifts were brilliant idea – was interesting to find out, that Zevran would be happy with glove/boots, or Oops! This mirror! I must buy! Such a mirror could be been, what Flemeth took away from her!) So: the gifts aren't bad, I would like similar things in the future games. Oh, I like them, just like I liked DAO/DAA gifts that were more story-related (like Antivan Leather Boots, Andraste's Grace or Ser Pounce-a-lot). Hell, I'll even admit playing with approval thanks to them. So I'm glad they're in game, but I know people that don't like them and don't use them. That's why I also like to include their perspective in my statements I just didn't understand, why people doesn't likes the gifts at all. I understand, why people wants to avoid the cheat-kind gifts, but there's no explanation to reject the story-wise gifts. (Okay, if anyone plays from wiki, then the gifts loses their story-values, I suppose, and become mere game-mechanical/strategical tools.)
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August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on May 27, 2017 14:38:47 GMT
The system was geared to throw points at you of the kind that were the path you were on. A 3 year time jump and you'd get another chance to stop by with a gift. If you gave Fenris the sword or Isabella the ship in a bottle as an already rival, at the end of the conversation, you got rivalry points, not friendship. Same if you were on the friendship path. The sword you give Fenris actually reminds him of bad times. The ship in a bottle reminds Isabella she doesn't have a ship. But if you're friends, they find the gift cute, unusual, ironic. Rivals? Fenris practically throws that sword in your face. Oh, I know that. It's one of the ways game tries to deal with duality of relationship system and I appreciate it has at least that. But 1) not everyone likes using those gifts (since they're artificial approval boosters), 2) they're missable (or in case of Anders' amulet, depending on your choices you may actually have no chance to get it) and 3) despite all that some people still have problems with gaining friendship/rivalry points, which means gifts are not enough. The only gifts in DA2 are story related ones. Not getting them for that reason above is like saying ,"I don't do personal/loyalty quests because they're just approval boosters." That idea also ignores the fact that people give gifts in real life? To make people smile, to Brighten their day. It's pleasurable to give others pleasure. Guess I should stop all that artificial approval boosting. If a player wants automatic friends, go play some Final Fantasy 10-2 or 15 I am Against the use of non story related gifts, although no idea how to get Oghren up there considering I get him so late in the game and I'm doomed to kill Branka.
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Post by Rascoth on May 27, 2017 14:44:21 GMT
Oh, I know that. It's one of the ways game tries to deal with duality of relationship system and I appreciate it has at least that. But 1) not everyone likes using those gifts (since they're artificial approval boosters), 2) they're missable (or in case of Anders' amulet, depending on your choices you may actually have no chance to get it) and 3) despite all that some people still have problems with gaining friendship/rivalry points, which means gifts are not enough. The only gifts in DA2 are story related ones. Not getting them for that reason above is like saying ,"I don't do personal/loyalty quests because they're just approval boosters." That idea also ignores the fact that people give gifts in real life? To make people smile, to Brighten their day. It's pleasurable to give others pleasure. Guess I should stop all that artificial approval boosting. If a player wants automatic friends, go play some Final Fantasy 10-2 or 15 I am Against the use of non story related gifts, although no idea how to get Oghren up there considering I get him so late in the game and I'm doomed to kill Branka. I agree with you on that. I just wanted to point out that some people see it this way, not that I am one of them.
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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guest@proboards.com
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January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 3:39:08 GMT
My trouble with it is it is on the same scale, so sometimes, even if you play a character that personally despises the companion, but makes descisions that the companion likes, you hang around the middle, despite the fact that you do take them along and you try to be argumentative with them. Then, there is a companion like Varric that makes this score meaningless, because... really it makes zero difference.
But with the companions that have it working well, it works wonders.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Dreadnaw Rising
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August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Jun 2, 2017 15:49:03 GMT
My trouble with it is it is on the same scale, so sometimes, even if you play a character that personally despises the companion, but makes descisions that the companion likes, you hang around the middle, despite the fact that you do take them along and you try to be argumentative with them. Then, there is a companion like Varric that makes this score meaningless, because... really it makes zero difference. But with the companions that have it working well, it works wonders. When I rivaled Varric he struggled to give a real compliment and seemed to fear my Hawke a bit. I thought there was a difference
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 29, 2017 20:28:23 GMT
My trouble with it is it is on the same scale, so sometimes, even if you play a character that personally despises the companion, but makes descisions that the companion likes, you hang around the middle, despite the fact that you do take them along and you try to be argumentative with them. Then, there is a companion like Varric that makes this score meaningless, because... really it makes zero difference. But with the companions that have it working well, it works wonders. When I rivaled Varric he struggled to give a real compliment and seemed to fear my Hawke a bit. I thought there was a difference Hunh. I could never get Varric's Rivalry, not even on my "Asshole to Everyone" run  .
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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24,137
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12,551
August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Jul 29, 2017 20:31:31 GMT
When I rivaled Varric he struggled to give a real compliment and seemed to fear my Hawke a bit. I thought there was a difference Hunh. I could never get Varric's Rivalry, not even on my "Asshole to Everyone" run  . My aggressive sociopath Hawke did it easy. Don't like Kirkwall, never take a joke, rip people off, and kill good people. I think I remember letting Anders heal the brother and still killing him anyway. He asked to die, didn't he? His one lucid minute in possibly years and his own brother suggests to deny his final request?
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2017 20:42:16 GMT
When I rivaled Varric he struggled to give a real compliment and seemed to fear my Hawke a bit. I thought there was a difference Hunh. I could never get Varric's Rivalry, not even on my "Asshole to Everyone" run  . I'm on it. But not with everyone. I planned it (except Anders, because he's the planned romance and because Hawke agrees with him), but I dropped the idea. Fenris will be a friend (I know, this is a really weird friendship, but he wanted), and perhaps Merrill. I didn't decide yet. He's a blood mage, but self-conceited enough to questioned the other's competence, despite, that basically, he hasn't any problem with Merrill's goal. So: only Isabela, Aveline, Varric and Sebastian rivalry. This will be hard, I see. Carver also loves better his brother, than I expected, and Fenris too. He failed to be a total asshole. Isabela also will be hard, I see... but Varric and Aveline are already on the right track.
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boxofscreaming
N3
 
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 943 Likes: 1,656
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8698
0
1,656
boxofscreaming
943
June 2017
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by boxofscreaming on Aug 14, 2017 19:27:32 GMT
I find rivalry interesting, but I don't really have the heart to do it. Especially not with Varric. Who could rival that face?
In the end all my Hawkes have ended up either super nice or neutral enough not to piss people off.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 14, 2017 23:22:56 GMT
I find rivalry interesting, but I don't really have the heart to do it. Especially not with Varric. Who could rival that face? In the end all my Hawkes have ended up either super nice or neutral enough not to piss people off. Rivalry a little bit harder than the friendship. I mostly maxed almost all. But with Fenris in romance so good: it just shows (mage)Hawke's frustration (and not cruel to Fenris, rather Fenris cruel to Hawke). With Merrill seems a bit cruel. With Aveline seems hard to achieve, but I'm on it and enjoy. With Isabela, I try. We'll see. With Varric? I'm on it. He doesn't like red answers. With Anders? In romance? Cruel and creepy. Non-romance? Depends on Hawke's thinking. With Sebastian? I now will try, but I hate to crush people's faith. If I can do it without it, I will do it. Sebastian's not my fav... but without metaknowledge, my Hawkes always befriended with him accidentally. My Hawkes are more or less Andrastians. I didn't saw any reasons not do it.
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Post by q5tyhj on Sept 10, 2017 18:18:20 GMT
Just completed DA2 for the first time, I'm not much of a fan of the friendship/rivalry system tbh- relationships/interactions without the possibility of genuine dislike seem to lack a sense of depth, a sense of anything being at stake (since there's nothing you can say or do that will cause them to outright dislike you). Otoh, the possibility of respectful disagreement or rivalry is an interesting addition to the standard like/dislike system- it'd be nice to see a companion approval system that wasn't a simple binary between like/agree and dislike/disagree, or friendship and rivalry, but with, say, 3 possible outcomes: like/agree, respectfully disagree (something like rivalry), dislike/disagree.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 11, 2017 0:36:43 GMT
Just completed DA2 for the first time, I'm not much of a fan of the friendship/rivalry system tbh- relationships/interactions without the possibility of genuine dislike seem to lack a sense of depth, a sense of anything being at stake (since there's nothing you can say or do that will cause them to outright dislike you). Otoh, the possibility of respectful disagreement or rivalry is an interesting addition to the standard like/dislike system- it'd be nice to see a companion approval system that wasn't a simple binary between like/agree and dislike/disagree, or friendship and rivalry, but with, say, 3 possible outcomes: like/agree, respectfully disagree (something like rivalry), dislike/disagree. I found it enjoyable but undeniably has many flaws. Honestly, I want it to come back, but as an improved system. Your like/agree, respectfully disagree and dislike/disagree seems a good idea.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Sept 16, 2017 13:24:51 GMT
The only cons I can think of is that the characters had two things they strongly believed in each? Like Fenris was anti mage and anti slavery and his points were related to those two things, so you could really flip flop on his approval bar.
Merrill was blood magic but also rebelling against her clan. I consider her use of blood magic responsible (as it only harms herself) but I was also sympathetic to her adoptive mother. One time I rivaled her ust to rival her and see what that was like-- even though I let her get the arunholm, the scene was scripted to say I hadn't due to the rivalry status.
Anders was pro mage freedom but also anti Fenris Anti Merril and Pro Anarchy Rebellion. His conversation branches were a bit better in that your dialogue could reflect the differences between his issues even in an argument. And it's easy to get lots of points from him, before he becomes totally devisive in Act 3.
So yeah, the only cons to the system is that if you friended them, they assumed you were for everything they believed in. And Against everything they were if you rivaled. But it's still better than blanket approval of Mass Effect Universe. Perfect world is that the game would track every major conversation agreement point rather than points, I suppose. But DAI didn't do that even if it did keep the disapproval scenes.
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Post by Walter Black on Sept 16, 2017 19:55:14 GMT
The only cons I can think of is that the characters had two things they strongly believed in each? Like Fenris was anti mage and anti slavery and his points were related to those two things, so you could really flip flop on his approval bar. Merrill was blood magic but also rebelling against her clan. I consider her use of blood magic responsible (as it only harms herself) but I was also sympathetic to her adoptive mother. One time I rivaled her ust to rival her and see what that was like-- even though I let her get the arunholm, the scene was scripted to say I hadn't due to the rivalry status. Anders was pro mage freedom but also anti Fenris Anti Merril and Pro Anarchy Rebellion. His conversation branches were a bit better in that your dialogue could reflect the differences between his issues even in an argument. And it's easy to get lots of points from him, before he becomes totally devisive in Act 3. So yeah, the only cons to the system is that if you friended them, they assumed you were for everything they believed in. And Against everything they were if you rivaled. But it's still better than blanket approval of Mass Effect Universe. Perfect world is that the game would track every major conversation agreement point rather than points, I suppose. But DAI didn't do that even if it did keep the disapproval scenes. If the Dragon Age writers ever bring back Friendship and Rivalry, I hope the they take notes from Obsidian's Tyranny. Companions there get different character paths and combat perks based on Loyalty and Fear, and they are not mutually exclusive.
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