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Post by kino on May 19, 2017 21:07:55 GMT
The Leviathan DLC explains a lot of the reasoning behind the Reapers, their purpose and programing. The Leviathans were only concerned about "their" galaxy. The Reapers kinda showed how many f*cks they gave about what the Leviathans wanted when they started mulching them. True, but since the AI that controlled the Reapers was only concerned with the Leviathans original request, well, that never included anything other than the Milky Way.
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Post by Iakus on May 19, 2017 21:10:03 GMT
The Reapers kinda showed how many f*cks they gave about what the Leviathans wanted when they started mulching them. True, but since the AI that controlled the Reapers was only concerned with the Leviathans original request, well, that never included anything other than the Milky Way. But it didn't not include other galaxies either. Just like it didn't not include mulching their creators.
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kino
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Post by kino on May 19, 2017 21:20:10 GMT
True, but since the AI that controlled the Reapers was only concerned with the Leviathans original request, well, that never included anything other than the Milky Way. But it didn't not include other galaxies either. Just like it didn't not include mulching their creators. Reaping Leviathan was the AI's answer, as well as repeating the process every 50k years. Since the AI eventually concluded that Reaping was the only way to prevent conflict between synthetics and non-synthetic life then, yes, it's plan included reaping their creators. It says so in the EC. Nothing the AI says, or Leviathan says, ever mentions anything other than the Milky Way. There's a Leviathan quote where they talk about "their galaxy" and all of their thralls. Doesn't sound like any other galaxies were considered as a part of the problem by Leviathan. Since the AI was only interested in solving the Leviathans problem that would only include the Milky Way.
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Post by Iakus on May 19, 2017 21:24:42 GMT
But it didn't not include other galaxies either. Just like it didn't not include mulching their creators. Reaping Leviathan was the AI's answer, as well as repeating the process every 50k years. Since the AI eventually concluded that Reaping was the only way to prevent conflict between synthetics and non-synthetic life then, yes, it's plan included reaping their creators. It says so in the EC. Nothing the AI says, or Leviathan says, ever mentions anything other than the Milky Way. There's a Leviathan quote where they talk about "their galaxy" and all of their thralls. Doesn't sound like any other galaxies were considered as a part of the problem by Leviathan. Since the AI was only interested in solving the Leviathans problem that would only include the Milky Way. But intergalactic travel throws a spanner in the works. The Milky Way is no longer an isolated experiment, but part of a greater whole. Dark space is no longer a barrier to contamination. Since not only can organics (or synthetics for that matter) escape and develop in ways the Reapers cannot predict or control, but others can come here and start meddling. Or worse, synthetics growing and evolving unchecked could surpass the Reapers, come here, and undo all their work. Did the Reapers seriously not consider this possibility?
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kino
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Post by kino on May 19, 2017 21:32:04 GMT
Reaping Leviathan was the AI's answer, as well as repeating the process every 50k years. Since the AI eventually concluded that Reaping was the only way to prevent conflict between synthetics and non-synthetic life then, yes, it's plan included reaping their creators. It says so in the EC. Nothing the AI says, or Leviathan says, ever mentions anything other than the Milky Way. There's a Leviathan quote where they talk about "their galaxy" and all of their thralls. Doesn't sound like any other galaxies were considered as a part of the problem by Leviathan. Since the AI was only interested in solving the Leviathans problem that would only include the Milky Way. But intergalactic travel throws a spanner in the works. The Milky Way is no longer an isolated experiment, but part of a greater whole. Dark space is no longer a barrier to contamination. Since not only can organics (or synthetics for that matter) escape and develop in ways the Reapers cannot predict or control, but others can come here and start meddling. Or worse, synthetics growing and evolving unchecked could surpass the Reapers, come here, and undo all their work. Did the Reapers seriously not consider this possibility? By the time the Initiative arrives in Andromeda either the Reapers are controlled, synthesized or destroyed. It's only in the EC that there's a refuse option, in which case they'll stay in the Milky Way and wait for their 50k year signal since that's their programming. That's the key, the Reapers operate according to programming from a central artificial intelligence. The only thing that would think of other galaxies is the Star Child and it never did in millions of years of existence. Since the Initiative isn't mentioned in ME3 then the assumption is that Star Child never knew about it either.
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Post by Iakus on May 19, 2017 22:09:43 GMT
But intergalactic travel throws a spanner in the works. The Milky Way is no longer an isolated experiment, but part of a greater whole. Dark space is no longer a barrier to contamination. Since not only can organics (or synthetics for that matter) escape and develop in ways the Reapers cannot predict or control, but others can come here and start meddling. Or worse, synthetics growing and evolving unchecked could surpass the Reapers, come here, and undo all their work. Did the Reapers seriously not consider this possibility? By the time the Initiative arrives in Andromeda either the Reapers are controlled, synthesized or destroyed. It's only in the EC that there's a refuse option, in which case they'll stay in the Milky Way and wait for their 50k year signal since that's their programming. That's the key, the Reapers operate according to programming from a central artificial intelligence. The only thing that would think of other galaxies is the Star Child and it never did in millions of years of existence. Since the Initiative isn't mentioned in ME3 then the assumption is that Star Child never knew about it either. I'm not talking about the Andromeda Initiative specifically, I am talking about intergalactic travel in general. In the billion+ years of Reaper existence the possibility that something might be able to breach dark space, either leaving the Milky Way or entering it, must have occurred to them.
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Post by kino on May 19, 2017 22:19:56 GMT
By the time the Initiative arrives in Andromeda either the Reapers are controlled, synthesized or destroyed. It's only in the EC that there's a refuse option, in which case they'll stay in the Milky Way and wait for their 50k year signal since that's their programming. That's the key, the Reapers operate according to programming from a central artificial intelligence. The only thing that would think of other galaxies is the Star Child and it never did in millions of years of existence. Since the Initiative isn't mentioned in ME3 then the assumption is that Star Child never knew about it either. I'm not talking about the Andromeda Initiative specifically, I am talking about intergalactic travel in general. In the billion+ years of Reaper existence the possibility that something might be able to breach dark space, either leaving the Milky Way or entering it, must have occurred to them. It was some really tight code? Maybe Star Child was never capable of thinking that far out of the box, past the Milky Way, even though the crazy machine seemed to be fully capable of independent thought? I wouldn't say it's a flaw in the story, just something that didn't need to be explored within the context of Shepard's story.
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Post by Iakus on May 19, 2017 22:42:44 GMT
I'm not talking about the Andromeda Initiative specifically, I am talking about intergalactic travel in general. In the billion+ years of Reaper existence the possibility that something might be able to breach dark space, either leaving the Milky Way or entering it, must have occurred to them. It was some really tight code? Maybe Star Child was never capable of thinking that far out of the box, past the Milky Way, even though the crazy machine seemed to be fully capable of independent thought? I wouldn't say it's a flaw in the story, just something that didn't need to be explored within the context of Shepard's story. Was able to think enough outside the box to conclude that "mulching species=preserving them" and set up an entire harvesting system to genocide the galaxy far outside the Leviathans' attention, but not so much that they think outside this one galaxy? It's not really a flaw in the system when travel is limited to this one galaxy, and Andromeda, etc are distant unknown shores. But the moment it becomes possible to travel to them, it becomes a flaw in the greater framework of the story. Not jsut because logically, the Reapers should have an interest in life there as well, but as soon as a cycle develops this level of technology, harvesting become pointless.
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Post by Seera1024 on May 20, 2017 1:12:10 GMT
The thing is, the Leviathans may have been aware of intergalactic travel but didn't program the Catalyst with that possibility because a solution hadn't been found yet. Just in case they needed to change the programming to better design a solution. Of course, the Leviathans never thought that eliminating them would be part of the Catalyst's solution.
Just like how drugs get tested on a small population before being sold to the public. Just in case there are unknown problems.
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Post by kino on May 20, 2017 1:14:37 GMT
It was some really tight code? Maybe Star Child was never capable of thinking that far out of the box, past the Milky Way, even though the crazy machine seemed to be fully capable of independent thought? I wouldn't say it's a flaw in the story, just something that didn't need to be explored within the context of Shepard's story. Was able to think enough outside the box to conclude that "mulching species=preserving them" and set up an entire harvesting system to genocide the galaxy far outside the Leviathans' attention, but not so much that they think outside this one galaxy? It's not really a flaw in the system when travel is limited to this one galaxy, and Andromeda, etc are distant unknown shores. But the moment it becomes possible to travel to them, it becomes a flaw in the greater framework of the story. Not jsut because logically, the Reapers should have an interest in life there as well, but as soon as a cycle develops this level of technology, harvesting become pointless. Yeah, but that thinking out of the box was a part of the conclusion it came to, which took even Leviathan by surprise. It's why the poor dominating bastards became the first Reaper. I think, in regards to the Angara, it may not be applicable. They were a created species so they may not have been around long enough for the Reapers to have noticed and the Jaardan may have been advanced enough that the Reapers couldn't see them. Or the distances involved could very well have been a factor since the Reapers would have no reason outside of their original programming to even look outside the Milky Way. After all, when the Reapers went to dark space outside the Milky Way they were functionally going into stand-by mode, just waiting for the signal that it was time to reset the balance.
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Post by Seera1024 on May 20, 2017 1:22:09 GMT
Was able to think enough outside the box to conclude that "mulching species=preserving them" and set up an entire harvesting system to genocide the galaxy far outside the Leviathans' attention, but not so much that they think outside this one galaxy? It's not really a flaw in the system when travel is limited to this one galaxy, and Andromeda, etc are distant unknown shores. But the moment it becomes possible to travel to them, it becomes a flaw in the greater framework of the story. Not jsut because logically, the Reapers should have an interest in life there as well, but as soon as a cycle develops this level of technology, harvesting become pointless. Yeah, but that thinking out of the box was a part of the conclusion it came to, which took even Leviathan by surprise. It's why the poor dominating bastards became the first Reaper. I think, in regards to the Angara, it may not be applicable. They were a created species so they may not have been around long enough for the Reapers to have noticed and the Jaardan may have been advanced enough that the Reapers couldn't see them. Or the distances involved could very well have been a factor since the Reapers would have no reason outside of their original programming to even look outside the Milky Way. After all, when the Reapers went to dark space outside the Milky Way they were functionally going into stand-by mode, just waiting for the signal that it was time to reset the balance. Nah, I think it's more just lack of realizing that with the given data, that the Catalyst would use any solution they found on them. The best way to prevent organic and synthetic conflict is to keep the organics from making synthetics and the only sure fire way to do that is to eliminate them before they are capable of doing so. If the Leviathans were able to create the Catalyst, then they are able to make synthetics. It was only logical that the Catalyst applied the solution to the Leviathans given the data the Catalyst had.
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Post by kino on May 20, 2017 1:38:41 GMT
Yeah, but that thinking out of the box was a part of the conclusion it came to, which took even Leviathan by surprise. It's why the poor dominating bastards became the first Reaper. I think, in regards to the Angara, it may not be applicable. They were a created species so they may not have been around long enough for the Reapers to have noticed and the Jaardan may have been advanced enough that the Reapers couldn't see them. Or the distances involved could very well have been a factor since the Reapers would have no reason outside of their original programming to even look outside the Milky Way. After all, when the Reapers went to dark space outside the Milky Way they were functionally going into stand-by mode, just waiting for the signal that it was time to reset the balance. Nah, I think it's more just lack of realizing that with the given data, that the Catalyst would use any solution they found on them. The best way to prevent organic and synthetic conflict is to keep the organics from making synthetics and the only sure fire way to do that is to eliminate them before they are capable of doing so. If the Leviathans were able to create the Catalyst, then they are able to make synthetics. It was only logical that the Catalyst applied the solution to the Leviathans given the data the Catalyst had. Interesting. I thought Leviathan created the Catalyst because it had been losing thralls to that type of conflict already? I think I remember something about that being stated by Leviathan. Dammit, people, please don't make me go find a ME3 save and play through that DLC again...
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Post by Seera1024 on May 20, 2017 3:41:12 GMT
Nah, I think it's more just lack of realizing that with the given data, that the Catalyst would use any solution they found on them. The best way to prevent organic and synthetic conflict is to keep the organics from making synthetics and the only sure fire way to do that is to eliminate them before they are capable of doing so. If the Leviathans were able to create the Catalyst, then they are able to make synthetics. It was only logical that the Catalyst applied the solution to the Leviathans given the data the Catalyst had. Interesting. I thought Leviathan created the Catalyst because it had been losing thralls to that type of conflict already? I think I remember something about that being stated by Leviathan. Dammit, people, please don't make me go find a ME3 save and play through that DLC again... Well, they hadn't quite gotten the timing right on it. Javik did mention Synthetic vs Organic wars and of course there's the Geth vs Quarians. And of course, even if they had, the Leviathans would obviously not be able to fall under that because the Catalyst is synthetic in the first place.
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Post by kino on May 20, 2017 7:08:29 GMT
Interesting. I thought Leviathan created the Catalyst because it had been losing thralls to that type of conflict already? I think I remember something about that being stated by Leviathan. Dammit, people, please don't make me go find a ME3 save and play through that DLC again... Well, they hadn't quite gotten the timing right on it. Javik did mention Synthetic vs Organic wars and of course there's the Geth vs Quarians. And of course, even if they had, the Leviathans would obviously not be able to fall under that because the Catalyst is synthetic in the first place. The timing of the Zha and the Zah'til was prior to the 50k year cycle, as well as the Quarian/Geth conflict. However, those two events show that the timing of the Reaper invasion was, actually, pretty well timed since they both occurred near the end of the cycle. The Leviathans, while not synthetic, were the apex species of their cycle. If their were synthetics among their thralls they would have been swept up in the reaping, whether they themselves had synthetics or not...much like the Batarians, Asari and the other species at the end the OT cycle. Actually, much like the Protheans at the end of their cycle, considering how much they despised artificial intelligence.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 20, 2017 8:46:32 GMT
The main reason I think the Reapers don't go to other galaxies has nothing to do with any theoretical mandate to restrict their activities to the Milky Way. Instead, I think Vigil's reasoning makes the most sense. The Reapers retreat to dark space and go dormant. Once they start the harvest they're pretty much non-stop for however long it takes to succeed. Centuries, in the case of the the Prothean Cycle. I don't believe they have unlimited power. Hence, they sit tight at full power, waiting for the proper time.
The other side is that the MW itself could be considered the "testing grounds" for their solution to the organic vs. synthetic problem. Once they solve the problem they then move outward and apply it everywhere. It's only in the current cycle that they found the solution (Synthesis) so it's only if that solution is applied that the Reapers would then choose to go outward and force it on the rest of the universe.
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Post by Reorte on May 20, 2017 9:42:06 GMT
The only sensible explanation I can think of is that they realised trying to reap the entire universe was impossible so decided to stick with the Milky Way and hope for the best. Andromeda makes intergalatic travel look too trivial for that to be viable though, or at least makes the argument that they should've dealt with the entire Local Cluster (galaxy cluster, not ME's star clusters). To be fair there isn't any evidence that they haven't, so it could be why what we've found in Andromeda isn't massively far advanced.
Anyway the whole Reapers thing is best forgotten, a classic example of a mystery not surviving its reveal.
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