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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 19:23:51 GMT
I'm currently in a playthrough where I make all the evil choices and leave the world compleatly fucks up . I'm now starting DAI but not sure which one of the two is worse. I know this is actually a useless thread but it can still be fun
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Post by shechinah on May 20, 2017 19:31:23 GMT
Vivienne is more maintaining a slightly different Status Quo so Hardened Leliana, in my opinion. While a Hardened Leliana tries to implement progressive changes, the way that she goes about is bloody. She also does not seem to implement them in a way that would logically make them lasting. Basically, the difference between integrating something with society and mashing something into society. The former has time to adjust with society and properly albeit slowly merge with it, avoiding the pitfalls and ensuring the changes are lasting. The latter just shoves them without adjusting for pitfalls and problems that could arise as a result. Leliana's changes are the latter, in my opinion. I think they'd be in danger of being removed after her death because the implementation method might make them unpopular amongst the commoners and the nobility.
TL:DR - a Hardened Leliana is more bloody than Vivienne as Divine as it's heavily implied Leliana kills those who oppose and speak out against her. Her actions are likely to cause problems because of how she tries to implement well-being changes.
That's my opinion from the last time the topic came up and from what I can recall of my previous post. It's not worded as well as that one, though.
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Post by Catilina on May 20, 2017 20:24:07 GMT
Hardened Leliana –I think–, less cruel than Vivienne, just not as nice than inspired Leliana. (And I also don't think, that inspired Leliana is a helpless, soft "flower child": she still knows the Game and have her experiences and spies, just probably asks before kills... And both have Cassandra's support.)
Vivienne worse. (And as I see, she believes in power, not in Andraste, if that matters...)
UPDATE: But depending on the perspective and the goal. If the evil Inquisitor believes, that Leliana's divinity causes chaos s/he can support even inspired Leliana. For example: I always say, that I never play as evil character, and because of this, I never will support the Templars in DA2, because I believe, that supporting the Templars is evil choice. But I saw people, who think, that supporting the templars is the good choice.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 20:35:22 GMT
Vivienne.
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Post by arvaarad on May 20, 2017 21:17:49 GMT
To me, someone convinced of their divine mission is way scarier than someone who's just after power. People who are competent, but power-hungry, are constrained by self-preservation. They have a vested interest in seeing the world continue - they can't rule over an ash heap. They also know there are fundamentally more people than any army they might muster. If they want to keep their power, they need to keep them at least slightly happy.
There are no limits on what a zealot (religious, political, or otherwise) might do. We can't even depend on them to desire self-preservation, because their righteous cause supersedes even their own life. Also, their beliefs likely include incorrect assumptions about the world, leading them to make choices that are suboptimal for everyone, including themselves or the people they're trying to help.
Now, don't get me wrong, zealots can also achieve a lot of good. For me, the problem is the range of possible outcomes. Some are very very good, others are very, very bad. Especially if said zealot has a gigantic network of spies and assassins.
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Post by formerfiend on May 20, 2017 23:45:55 GMT
You know, it's ironic because in real life I'm a pretty hardcore progressive so on principle I agree with all the changes that Leliana makes as divine. My issue with Leliana as divine isn't the changes she's trying to make but rather the apparent ease with which she makes them. I don't dislike her on a ideological grounds, but rather on narrative ones, as I believe her stint as divine is the epitome of creator favoritism for a character that just doesn't fit with the tone of the setting.
On the other hand, Vivienne becoming divine at all is a pretty big indicator of creator favoritism, what with her being a mage.
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Post by Quickpaw on May 21, 2017 0:07:22 GMT
Has anyone made Lel Divine after the warden killed her in Origins?
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Post by opuspace on May 21, 2017 1:53:39 GMT
Wow that's a tough one. Both have some bloody casualties...
I'm gonna say it's going to be a slim margin leaning towards Vivienne being worse because even though Leliana is doing the same thing as Vivienne in killing off opposition, she at least is aiming to enforce laws that benefit mages and elves in giving them more freedom and equality whereas Vivienne is forcibly returning things to the status quo for a narrow group of people while doing nothing for anyone outside her interest.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 21, 2017 8:24:48 GMT
I'm currently in a playthrough where I make all the evil choices and leave the world compleatly fucks up . I'm now starting DAI but not sure which one of the two is worse. I know this is actually a useless thread but it can still be fun It's worth speculating on. Especially if someone else wants to do the same kind of thing. As for your actual question, I'm not quite sure. On the one hand I like most of what Leiliana does, and I am really nervous about someone with Vivienne's morals becoming Divine. On the other hand, Leiliana apparently disbands the Circles entirely, rather than trying to make them acceptable to the mages; if I'm nervous about someone with Vivienne's lack of morals taking control of the Chantry, I'm also concerned that as far as we can tell Leiliana gives up any ability to rein in the mages and I'm really only worried about Vivienne taking firm control of the templar order because it's Vivienne doing it. (Since the Chantry's hands-off approach, especially in Kirkwall, was part of the problem as far as the Circles go.) On the other other hand, Trespasser establishes that Vivienne lets the Inquisition's mages form their own Semi-Circle if she becomes Divine, and forms her own Circle around the Chantry's teachings (or the ones she actually likes) if Leiliana does. So that further complicates any attempt at figuring out which is the better choice, especially because we don't know whether or not Vivienne puts any limits on the College as Divine and to what extent her Circles as First Enchanter resemble the old ones in the ways that actually restricted mages. And then there's the fact that Hardened Leiliana does a whole lot of killing, but shechinah already said everything on that that I would have. Though either way I kinda screwed up my World-State dedicated to this kinda thing by putting Cassandra in the top spot.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 13:44:18 GMT
I'm currently in a playthrough where I make all the evil choices and leave the world compleatly fucks up . I'm now starting DAI but not sure which one of the two is worse. I know this is actually a useless thread but it can still be fun It's worth speculating on. Especially if someone else wants to do the same kind of thing. As for your actual question, I'm not quite sure. On the one hand I like most of what Leiliana does, and I am really nervous about someone with Vivienne's morals becoming Divine. On the other hand, Leiliana apparently disbands the Circles entirely, rather than trying to make them acceptable to the mages; if I'm nervous about someone with Vivienne's lack of morals taking control of the Chantry, I'm also concerned that as far as we can tell Leiliana gives up any ability to rein in the mages and I'm really only worried about Vivienne taking firm control of the templar order because it's Vivienne doing it. (Since the Chantry's hands-off approach, especially in Kirkwall, was part of the problem as far as the Circles go.) On the other other hand, Trespasser establishes that Vivienne lets the Inquisition's mages form their own Semi-Circle if she becomes Divine, and forms her own Circle around the Chantry's teachings (or the ones she actually likes) if Leiliana does. So that further complicates any attempt at figuring out which is the better choice, especially because we don't know whether or not Vivienne puts any limits on the College as Divine and to what extent her Circles as First Enchanter resemble the old ones in the ways that actually restricted mages. And then there's the fact that Hardened Leiliana does a whole lot of killing, but shechinah already said everything on that that I would have. Though either way I kinda screwed up my World-State dedicated to this kinda thing by putting Cassandra in the top spot. Actually a Leliana without personal quest done maybe worse than hardened Leliana. HardLeliana keeps order for good or ill but if you don't do her personal quest she doesn't do anything about people who oppose her, which can be really bad. Maybe I should've wrote that instead of hardened Leliana. As for Vivienne, she is the most likely divine to turn southern Thedas into Tevinter which is also pretty bad. Man this is very hard choice
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 14:47:12 GMT
It's worth speculating on. Especially if someone else wants to do the same kind of thing. As for your actual question, I'm not quite sure. On the one hand I like most of what Leiliana does, and I am really nervous about someone with Vivienne's morals becoming Divine. On the other hand, Leiliana apparently disbands the Circles entirely, rather than trying to make them acceptable to the mages; if I'm nervous about someone with Vivienne's lack of morals taking control of the Chantry, I'm also concerned that as far as we can tell Leiliana gives up any ability to rein in the mages and I'm really only worried about Vivienne taking firm control of the templar order because it's Vivienne doing it. (Since the Chantry's hands-off approach, especially in Kirkwall, was part of the problem as far as the Circles go.) On the other other hand, Trespasser establishes that Vivienne lets the Inquisition's mages form their own Semi-Circle if she becomes Divine, and forms her own Circle around the Chantry's teachings (or the ones she actually likes) if Leiliana does. So that further complicates any attempt at figuring out which is the better choice, especially because we don't know whether or not Vivienne puts any limits on the College as Divine and to what extent her Circles as First Enchanter resemble the old ones in the ways that actually restricted mages. And then there's the fact that Hardened Leiliana does a whole lot of killing, but shechinah already said everything on that that I would have. Though either way I kinda screwed up my World-State dedicated to this kinda thing by putting Cassandra in the top spot. Actually a Leliana without personal quest done maybe worse than hardened Leliana. HardLeliana keeps order for good or ill but if you don't do her personal quest she doesn't do anything about people who oppose her, which can be really bad. Maybe I should've wrote that instead of hardened Leliana. As for Vivienne, she is the most likely divine to turn southern Thedas into Tevinter which is also pretty bad. Man this is very hard choice It's not that hard. Go with the magister-Divine for blood stream, or "abandoned" Leliana for chaos.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 14:57:30 GMT
I think your IQ's view on faith, the circle and mages would have a big impact on which would be considered 'the worst'. My nicest, most polite and sensible IQ will have Viv as he sees her as sensible and religious, so it's all about perspective.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 15:06:29 GMT
Actually a Leliana without personal quest done maybe worse than hardened Leliana. HardLeliana keeps order for good or ill but if you don't do her personal quest she doesn't do anything about people who oppose her, which can be really bad. Maybe I should've wrote that instead of hardened Leliana. As for Vivienne, she is the most likely divine to turn southern Thedas into Tevinter which is also pretty bad. Man this is very hard choice It's not that hard. Go with the magister-Divine for blood stream, or "abandoned" Leliana for chaos. That's the hard part I can't decide which kind of MAYHEM I want
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Post by Catilina on May 21, 2017 15:13:20 GMT
I think your IQ's view on faith, the circle and mages would have a big impact on which would be considered 'the worst'. My nicest, most polite and sensible IQ will have Viv as he sees her as sensible and religious, so it's all about perspective. Yes, this is all about the faith. For example I think, Vivienne very bad from the mage viewpoint, because she considers the mages so dangerous, than they need constant supervision, despite, that she is a mage. I can't imagine worse propaganda, than if a mage can't believe, that the mages are people, who can take the responsibility for themselves, and declares that from the higher position. If I consider Vivienne benevolent, she still the worst choice. But this is just me, who think, that the mages people, who can take the responsibility, doesn't need to treat them as dangerous children. But a mage, who consider him/herself a dangerous child could consider Vivienne the best choice. A Templar-hearted Inquisitor, I think, rather would choose Cassandra, because I can't imagine that can trust in a mage (a potential Abomination or Magister...!) on the Sunburst Throne.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 17:22:53 GMT
Has anyone made Lel Divine after the warden killed her in Origins? I did. I also kept the warden alive in my bad world state.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 21, 2017 18:57:17 GMT
To get the worst outcome in either case you should not be on good terms with them. With Leliana this means not doing her personal quest. With Vivienne it either means not doing her quest or messing it up and disagreeing with her on everything. I don't know how either of these impacts on the likelihood of them getting elected but there are options for Vivienne being Divine with negative approval, so it can happen. If it does, then having her as Divine means the Chantry starts to break apart. Mind you, I actually think this is a good thing because I've never been in favour of it and I think Josephine exaggerated the unifying benefits of having the Chantry since it has not stopped countless wars between nations in the past.
On the whole the negative elements of the epilogue in DAI seem to be ignored in Trespasser and a much more positive spin is put on every Divine outcome. So I don't know if the negative outcomes at the end of the main game are meant to come some years down the line after Trespasser when things have settled down a bit. Still, I would opt for Vivienne as the worst outcome regardless, since Cassandra refuses to work with her, so potential conflict with the new Seekers, and any of the positives at the end of the main game were dependent on her relationship with the Inquisition, so if you disband it, that is pretty much the same as having negative approval as the Inquisition is not around to back her up. There is pretty much a recipe for chaos there.
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Post by Abraxas on May 21, 2017 19:44:19 GMT
I really wanted my Male Qunari Divine :'v I think Vivienne is the worst. Leli-hard in the end do good things, only with Real Life methods. Vivienne, on the other hand, becomes Imperial Divine 2.0, and that is a low blow for Andrastianism. All those Anti-Tevinter propaganda, but now they have a mage as Divine. Talking about hypocrisy.
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Post by Pokemario on May 22, 2017 12:47:56 GMT
Pick Vivienne and make sure she's not friends with the Inquisitor. Having Leliana become Divine without completing her quest also works, but I think Low Approval Divine Vivienne is far,far worse.
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Post by Iakus on May 22, 2017 15:44:23 GMT
hardened leliana. Especially one who was struck down by the Warden. The implications of that combo are pretty bad for Thedas: Basically, you have a corrupted Fade spirit running the Chantry
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on May 25, 2017 4:58:02 GMT
I think your IQ's view on faith, the circle and mages would have a big impact on which would be considered 'the worst'. My nicest, most polite and sensible IQ will have Viv as he sees her as sensible and religious, so it's all about perspective. I have to agree wholeheartedly with this point. My Inquisitor Cadash was an Andrastian who wanted to put things back to order, and become accepted and acknowledged for his beliefs. He was friendly with Vivienne, and she offered him counsel. They both accepted eachother, and, had he not disbanded the Inquisition in the end, he would have served Divine Vivienne throughout her tenure as her most trusted knight (he also became a Templar). Since my Inquisitor wasn't in a position of authority while at Haven, he didn't interrupt Leliana while she was discussing that traitor agent; it wasn't his business. Unfortunately, that means that even though he encouraged Leliana to hold on to her faith and compassion, Leliana was hard-coded to become hardened due to that very first dialogue. My witty and faithful Inquisitor was scared of hardened Leliana and refused to back her bid. Although I'm sure the romanced warden was able to bring Leliana back to her unhardened condition.
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