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Post by Catilina on Dec 26, 2017 21:53:51 GMT
To be honest, it sounds like you are misrepresenting conversations you've had to suit your arguments. If you want to link to a few threads where we can actually read what other people have to say on the matter, then feel free. I can't remember every single one, but there were a few interesting comments in the old bsn.boards.net/thread/4870/gay-knight-shining-armor?page=18 thread, particularly towards the end. Aside from the Dragon Age talk, people went back and forth over whether Paladin Danse qualified as a KISA. A few posters, caladrius especially, felt that Danse's bigotry and intolerance should have immediately discarded him. There where times people tried to pigeonhole me into hating mandatory gay characters in bsn.boards.net/thread/3634/character-romance-thread-official, even after I repeatedly clarified that I was weary of mandatory characters at all, regardless of orientation . Unfortunately, it won't let me go to the specific pages. My point about KISAs in Tevinter was less about the player's influence, and more them realistically staying a KISA in Tevinter. Let's be honest, if the previous KISAs had tried to maintain their personal moral codes in the Imperium, Alistair would have broken, Cullen would have become psychotic, and Cassandra would have been assassinated. Tevinter's worship of mage divine rights, eugenics, decadence, deadly politics, unspoken tolerance of blood magic and spirit/demon binding, prejudice and slavery being the norm makes it damn near impossible for anyone who wants to live and be a good person. Cullen IS not (at least almost became)? Cullen said: the Templars dominate over the mages with divine right. The Templar Order just as corrupt as Tevinter is, or worse: the Templars believe, that they serve the good. Cullen and many Templars believe in the Chantry propaganda, and that corrupted them. In Southern-Thedas to be lawful AND good (this is a KISA popular definition) is an oxymoron. Just as in Tevinter. Cullen not an icon of the purity, only an archetype. but with many-many flaws. But my definition of the KISA is different: my KISA is someone who doesn't care about the law if the law serves the evil. This KISA really protects the people, not some corrupt order. I suppose Tevinter is a perfect place to rising a KISA, who has a spine and strong enough to break the corrupt law and order and protects the people from the law...
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Post by Faust on Dec 26, 2017 21:53:52 GMT
I would like to see romance/flirt used as a tool, to get what you want = informations, status, revenge etc... It may be a LI (or not, interesting if you don't spoil yourself to know the available romances)initiating to use you, or the opposite.
But with their stupid dialogue wheel it can't work.
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Post by Tittus on Dec 26, 2017 22:50:40 GMT
I would like to see romance/flirt used as a tool, to get what you want = informations, status, revenge etc... It may be a LI (or not, interesting if you don't spoil yourself to know the available romances)initiating to use you, or the opposite. But with their stupid dialogue wheel it can't work. In Josephine's quest, there's one time when you can use the flirt option and bed Belisse.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 0:44:07 GMT
I would like to see romance/flirt used as a tool, to get what you want = informations, status, revenge etc... It may be a LI (or not, interesting if you don't spoil yourself to know the available romances)initiating to use you, or the opposite. But with their stupid dialogue wheel it can't work. It works just fine, they just flag it with (pretend/lie) etc. Swtor used it a few times in different stories (Skavak was particularly satisfying, heh), and, in turn, some Swtor protagonists were duped by characters that flirted with them, in Smuggler and IA stories.
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 27, 2017 1:40:24 GMT
I can't remember every single one, but there were a few interesting comments in the old bsn.boards.net/thread/4870/gay-knight-shining-armor?page=18 thread, particularly towards the end. Aside from the Dragon Age talk, people went back and forth over whether Paladin Danse qualified as a KISA. A few posters, caladrius especially, felt that Danse's bigotry and intolerance should have immediately discarded him. There where times people tried to pigeonhole me into hating mandatory gay characters in bsn.boards.net/thread/3634/character-romance-thread-official, even after I repeatedly clarified that I was weary of mandatory characters at all, regardless of orientation . Unfortunately, it won't let me go to the specific pages. My point about KISAs in Tevinter was less about the player's influence, and more them realistically staying a KISA in Tevinter. Let's be honest, if the previous KISAs had tried to maintain their personal moral codes in the Imperium, Alistair would have broken, Cullen would have become psychotic, and Cassandra would have been assassinated. Tevinter's worship of mage divine rights, eugenics, decadence, deadly politics, unspoken tolerance of blood magic and spirit/demon binding, prejudice and slavery being the norm makes it damn near impossible for anyone who wants to live and be a good person. Cullen IS not (at least almost became)? Cullen said: the Templars dominate over the mages with divine right. The Templar Order just as corrupt as Tevinter is, or worse: the Templars believe, that they serve the good. Cullen and many Templars believe in the Chantry propaganda, and that corrupted them. In Southern-Thedas to be lawful AND good (this is a KISA popular definition) is an oxymoron. Just as in Tevinter. Once again, you either missed or deliberately ignored the point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter what the culture of Southern Thedas or the White Chantry preaches; I was referring to what Tevinter would have done to these characters, and what it does to everyone. A truly good person would be unable to function within the Imperium without compromising their morals, leaving or being crushed. Even those working to change it have to be careful what they oppose openly, lest the bring death on themselves and everyone they hold dear.
Lawful or chaotic, it's still idealized wish fulfillment, not how a real person would think or act. A truly three dimensional character has layers of positives and negatives, and could believably go in many directions. A complex KISA could become more pragmatic and patient towards change, become a more violently revolutionary who doesn't care about civilian casualties, become disillusioned and just leave, or any number of paths. If you ignore all the possible negative consequences of this person's arc, simply because that's what you want them to be, that's just bad writing.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 27, 2017 1:59:00 GMT
In Josephine's quest, there's one time when you can use the flirt option and bed Belisse. Seriously? Does she have any sort of reaction to that?
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Post by Tittus on Dec 27, 2017 2:03:21 GMT
In Josephine's quest, there's one time when you can use the flirt option and bed Belisse. Seriously? Does she have any sort of reaction to that? None, and I was even trying to romance Josie. But that option only appears if you aren't locked with anyone else.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 27, 2017 2:29:51 GMT
Cullen IS not (at least almost became)? Cullen said: the Templars dominate over the mages with divine right. The Templar Order just as corrupt as Tevinter is, or worse: the Templars believe, that they serve the good. Cullen and many Templars believe in the Chantry propaganda, and that corrupted them. In Southern-Thedas to be lawful AND good (this is a KISA popular definition) is an oxymoron. Just as in Tevinter. Once again, you either missed or deliberately ignored the point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter what the culture of Southern Thedas or the White Chantry preaches; I was referring to what Tevinter would have done to these characters, and what it does to everyone. A truly good person would be unable to function within the Imperium without compromising their morals, leaving or being crushed. Even those working to change it have to be careful what they oppose openly, lest the bring death on themselves and everyone they hold dear. Lawful or chaotic, it's still idealized wish fulfillment, not how a real person would think or act. A truly three dimensional character has layers of positives and negatives, and could believably go in many directions. A complex KISA could become more pragmatic and patient towards change, become a more violently revolutionary who doesn't care about civilian casualties, become disillusioned and just leave, or any number of paths. If you ignore all the possible negative consequences of this person's arc, simply because that's what you want them to be, that's just bad writing. 1. My opinion: Tevinter wouldn't a worse place to these characters, in fact, straight the opposite: In Southern-Thedas, the Templar/Seeker can believe their purpose and they can be broken, if they learned, that their whole faith based on a wrong system, a lie, and/or their admired leader is a liar, an "abomination... whatever. In Tevinter, that corrupt system is really corrupt and decadent. Nobody says that the system serves some better good. The system serves the mage lords. Why they would believe the system. A KISA perhaps would protect Tevinter because they believe that the qun is worse. Or because it's a work, and they can help the people secretly. Their faith wouldn't be damaged because they haven't faith in the system. 2. Neutral. Not lawful or chaotic. But yes... idealized... two dimensioned. As Justice, in Awakening... yes? Why you think, I want a flawless LI? I suppose I would totally okay with a violent revolutionary. You probably missed, what I wrote.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 4:43:03 GMT
For me Cullen ceases to be a knight after DA2. I wish they left him a Templar and he played the role of the guy who resisted Lucius and was recruited to lead the liberated Templars after the Templar’s quest. His story would have made so much more sense. Right now he seems a com0letely different character in the action cutscenes where he is heroic and take charge kind, and his romance where he is her fixer-upper and a broken man....
One of the Tevinter Templars who go against the grain and excersise their mandate to fight corruption among the mages, with anti magic abilities taken seriously and portrayed well, that would be a romance I would love.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 27, 2017 6:07:23 GMT
More of the barbarian archetype, please. I need me some Avvar tribesmen... some Chasind wilders... somebody down-to-earth with a totally different religious background from the Chantry (Imperial or Orlesian) and Dalish we've come to know. I'd like someone who introduces you to their way of life instead of automatically conforming to fit yours. Sky Watcher and Sigrid were both great.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 27, 2017 6:21:59 GMT
More of the barbarian archetype, please. I need me some Avvar tribesmen... some Chasind wilders... somebody down-to-earth with a totally different religious background from the Chantry (Imperial or Orlesian) and Dalish we've come to know. I'd like someone who introduces you to their way of life instead of automatically conforming to fit yours. Sky Watcher and Sigrid were both great. They teased us with Chasind characters way too much in DAO. And now the Avvar in DAI Bet we will have a couple random Fog Warrior side characters in DA4 that we'll never hear from again.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 27, 2017 6:27:13 GMT
More of the barbarian archetype, please. I need me some Avvar tribesmen... some Chasind wilders... somebody down-to-earth with a totally different religious background from the Chantry (Imperial or Orlesian) and Dalish we've come to know. I'd like someone who introduces you to their way of life instead of automatically conforming to fit yours. Sky Watcher and Sigrid were both great. They teased us with Chasind characters way too much in DAO. And now the Avvar in DAI Bet we will have a couple random Fog Warrior side characters in DA4 that we'll never hear from again. I hope to god we get a Fog Warrior companion, tbh. Doesn't seem... tooooo terribly unlikely. Sten, Fenris, and Bull all spent time on Seheron and had their squabbles with 'Vint slavers, Tal-Vashoth, the Qunari, and the Fog Warriors. It'd be nice to hear their perspective this time. But lol you're probably right. Minor footnote and then nada. DA letting us down.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 27, 2017 6:29:10 GMT
They teased us with Chasind characters way too much in DAO. And now the Avvar in DAI Bet we will have a couple random Fog Warrior side characters in DA4 that we'll never hear from again. I hope to god we get a Fog Warrior companion, tbh. Doesn't seem... tooooo terribly unlikely. Sten, Fenris, and Bull all spent time on Seheron and had their squabbles with 'Vint slavers, Tal-Vashoth, the Qunari, and the Fog Warriors. It'd be nice to hear their perspective this time. But lol you're probably right. Minor footnote and then nada. DA letting us down. If the Qun-Tevinter War is a big part of the plot like we think it will be, I wouldn't be surprised if there was one as a squadmate since they have fought against both sides on Seheron. Like you said, they would give the perspective of the people stuck in the middle of this conflict.
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Post by Faust on Dec 27, 2017 16:54:22 GMT
In Josephine's quest, there's one time when you can use the flirt option and bed Belisse. It works just fine, they just flag it with (pretend/lie) etc. Swtor used it a few times in different stories (Skavak was particularly satisfying, heh), and, in turn, some Swtor protagonists were duped by characters that flirted with them, in Smuggler and IA stories. I'll watch that on YT. I was thinking, maybe it is to difficult to implement, but you tell me, they did it in an older game, and there even is dumbed down version of the idea in DAI. Now, I want to see it in DA4 with somebody important. I can see this idea being used so well in Tevinter. I want to see the "choose heart option 20 times and get a sex scene" disappear. At the very least, if they don't change this, as a straight woman, I would like to stop being f*cked in some other way by the LI, am I right, Alistair, Zevran, Jacob, Thane, Anders, and the worst ; Blackwall, 100x time worst than Solas and Anders combined. I haven't experienced all of them, but this pattern needs to stop.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 1:54:33 GMT
In Josephine's quest, there's one time when you can use the flirt option and bed Belisse. It works just fine, they just flag it with (pretend/lie) etc. Swtor used it a few times in different stories (Skavak was particularly satisfying, heh), and, in turn, some Swtor protagonists were duped by characters that flirted with them, in Smuggler and IA stories. I'll watch that on YT. I was thinking, maybe it is to difficult to implement, but you tell me, they did it in an older game, and there even is dumbed down version of the idea in DAI. Now, I want to see it in DA4 with somebody important. I can see this idea being used so well in Tevinter. I want to see the "choose heart option 20 times and get a sex scene" disappear. At the very least, if they don't change this, as a straight woman, I would like to stop being f*cked in some other way by the LI, am I right, Alistair, Zevran, Jacob, Thane, Anders, and the worst ; Blackwall, 100x time worst than Solas and Anders combined. I haven't experienced all of them, but this pattern needs to stop. I liked Alistair, Thane & Anders. So I would love romances like theirs again very, very, very much. Zevran was okay, I guess, as a rebound option. Don’t really care for Jacob or Blackwall, so i never really played their romances.
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Post by Fredward on Dec 29, 2017 7:21:21 GMT
I dunno why but the idea of a bookish psychopath (using the term somewhat loosely) has been stuck in my head for a while. Their comportment is eerily still with maybe some birdishness in the way they tilt their head when they're interested in something. They follow the protag because they think they're correct/their course of action is the most well reasoned and because it is morally right, as a distant second concern. They're not psychotic in the sense that they randomly stab people or torture cats or whatever (they don't) but if they've come to the conclusion that someone is a threat or a problem and the most expedient solution is killing them they will, seemingly without any hesitation. Romance wise the obvious continuation of this mindset would be "OMG you're the only person that makes me irrational!" which is a bit pat and sets up a dichotomy between reason and emotion I don't necessarily like. Could be cute in that "I have a murder puppy" kind of way I guess. Muddle the waters a bit by introducing the question of "Are they with me cuz of emotional investment or because they've decided it's the most logical thing to do?" Character crisis point would be where they're exposed to a compelling counter view and if the protag can't make a compelling argument for why they're right they switch to the baddies' side. Romance crisis point would be in the player's side of the court, they do something awful like murdering a family member (their own not the player's) or something and the player can just be like "Nope, line crossed, you are a crazy person."
I also like the idea of someone who is crazy, stupid attractive and who has come to rely on that to some degree to get their way/navigate life and then somewhere along the way, after the romance has been established, they lose their good looks in some accident or attack and they have to figure out who they are beyond that.
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Post by Faust on Dec 29, 2017 17:45:33 GMT
I liked Alistair, Thane & Anders. So I would love romances like theirs again very, very, very much. Zevran was okay, I guess, as a rebound option. Don’t really care for Jacob or Blackwall, so i never really played their romances. Oh no, I'm not saying these are bad romances (Thane ME2 is one of my favorite characters), I was talking about the fact that a great number of straight female romances can end (or simply ends) badly. Bioware doesn't make dating sim, I'll never expect a mind blowing romance from them, it's simply a nice bonus, but I feel like they always use the same tactics. The guy dies, lies, or uses you. Maybe it's what the StraightF demographic asks, I don't know. At least give me the opton to Mochi them
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 18:34:55 GMT
I liked Alistair, Thane & Anders. So I would love romances like theirs again very, very, very much. Zevran was okay, I guess, as a rebound option. Don’t really care for Jacob or Blackwall, so i never really played their romances. Oh no, I'm not saying these are bad romances (Thane ME2 is one of my favorite characters), I was talking about the fact that a great number of straight female romances can end (or simply ends) badly. Bioware doesn't make dating sim, I'll never expect a mind blowing romance from them, it's simply a nice bonus, but I feel like they always use the same tactics. The guy dies, lies, or uses you. Maybe it's what the StraightF demographic asks, I don't know. At least give me the opton to Mochi them Well, without the drama, there is no lovestory. I mean, look at Cullen, he basically repeats the same dialogue over and over after Lyrium subplot is done...
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 29, 2017 18:47:20 GMT
Not to discredit your annoyance but I think only lesbians have been devoid of romances with a bunch of drama, deceit, lies and '' bad '' endings when it comes to Dragon Age. Especially in DA:I where the biggest hurdle really is Sera's close-mindedness and that's pretty much it. And I know some lesbians really would like some drama, hopefully they get it in DA4!
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Post by Catilina on Dec 29, 2017 18:47:21 GMT
I liked Alistair, Thane & Anders. So I would love romances like theirs again very, very, very much. Zevran was okay, I guess, as a rebound option. Don’t really care for Jacob or Blackwall, so i never really played their romances. Oh no, I'm not saying these are bad romances (Thane ME2 is one of my favorite characters), I was talking about the fact that a great number of straight female romances can end (or simply ends) badly. Bioware doesn't make dating sim, I'll never expect a mind blowing romance from them, it's simply a nice bonus, but I feel like they always use the same tactics. The guy dies, lies, or uses you. Maybe it's what the StraightF demographic asks, I don't know. At least give me the opton to Mochi them Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 29, 2017 20:04:03 GMT
Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose. Yeah I don't get some of the criticisms. Most of the issues are completely avoidable if you take certain paths. Regardless, even if Alistair does end the relationship, he doesn't lie or use you. He makes it very clear that he's regretful, but is trying to take his new role as king (which you force him into!) seriously. You meet Zevran under less-than-great circumstances, but if you follow through with the romance he is loyal when the crisis moment happens. I have never understood the complaint about Fenris. It's always been so obvious to me that he is in pain during the scene. I don't know how anyone can look at that scene, hear his words and voice, and think that he just used you for sex. It's like we played two different games. Cullen never lies or uses you. All the rest have various issues, but these four are solid, loyal, true, and love you to death.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 20:44:38 GMT
Oh no, I'm not saying these are bad romances (Thane ME2 is one of my favorite characters), I was talking about the fact that a great number of straight female romances can end (or simply ends) badly. Bioware doesn't make dating sim, I'll never expect a mind blowing romance from them, it's simply a nice bonus, but I feel like they always use the same tactics. The guy dies, lies, or uses you. Maybe it's what the StraightF demographic asks, I don't know. At least give me the opton to Mochi them Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose. I don't think the post said they do not matter, just that there are fairly fewer of them. For me Anders' and Thane's romances are ideal - they have agendas of their own and clearly do not report to the PC, and the love stories make the game intensely personal, but they never betray PC or leave her. I like Alistair less because he leaves the PC. I think some of BioWARE's romances are out of this world awesome love stories.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 29, 2017 20:57:03 GMT
Not to discredit your annoyance but I think only lesbians have been devoid of romances with a bunch of drama, deceit, lies and '' bad '' endings when it comes to Dragon Age. Especially in DA:I where the biggest hurdle really is Sera's close-mindedness and that's pretty much it. And I know some lesbians really would like some drama, hopefully they get it in DA4! I think Isabela's the only romance we've had that's been an emotional rollercoaster, lots of drama and half-truths and a possible "bad" ending... Sera with an elf or Merrill in a rivalmance sort of count, I guess. Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose. Yeah I don't get some of the criticisms. Most of the issues are completely avoidable if you take certain paths. Regardless, even if Alistair does end the relationship, he doesn't lie or use you. He makes it very clear that he's regretful, but is trying to take his new role as king (which you force him into!) seriously. You meet Zevran under less-than-great circumstances, but if you follow through with the romance he is loyal when the crisis moment happens. I have never understood the complaint about Fenris. It's always been so obvious to me that he is in pain during the scene. I don't know how anyone can look at that scene, hear his words and voice, and think that he just used you for sex. It's like we played two different games. Cullen never lies or uses you. All the rest have various issues, but these four are solid, loyal, true, and love you to death. Quoted for truth. Especially with regard to Fenris. I've played his romance several times and I've never, ever thought to be offended that he ran off after their first night together. The man was a slave - also a sex slave - who is clearly overwhelmed and having flashbacks. He's an amnesiac who just got pelted with memories of the life he lost. It has nothing to do with Hawke. He doesn't leave to hurt them. He leaves because he's hurting. The fact that players try to make that moment about them baffles me. And I'll never understand the complaints about Zevran. The only circumstances in which he'll "betray" you are if you sit around insulting him or just... you know... never bother to talk to him and get to know him. If you show him any sort of kindness and acceptance, he stays. He kills his ex-boyfriend for you. If you romance him, he's willing to storm the Black City itself and follows the Warden on their quest to end the Calling. He is the only LI to do so. People get so salty about Alistair, but maybe they should've left him as a Warden instead of giving him a kingdom he never wanted and the burden of responsibility that comes with it.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 29, 2017 21:01:58 GMT
Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose. I don't think the post said they do not matter, just that there are fairly fewer of them. For me Anders' and Thane's romances are ideal - they have agendas of their own and clearly do not report to the PC, and the love stories make the game intensely personal, but they never betray PC or leave her. I like Alistair less because he leaves the PC. I never tried Thane's romance, but you know, my favourite's Anders, and never felt betrayed (and my type, so: perfect romance, for me), nevertheless I know, that's not for everyone, and I know, I'm boring, I asseverate constantly that he's the best and honest. So: of course his romance the best, because plot-relevant, and can be sweet and bitter, tragic and happy, and can be interpreted in many ways just as himself and Justice. I only said there are smooth-sweet, "easier" romances for straight women in every part of the series.
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Post by Faust on Dec 29, 2017 21:55:56 GMT
Alistair and Cullen don't matter? Zevran's romance arc one of the best in the series, he's honest, and if he "betrays" the Warden, the Warden didn't care about him for a minute. Kaidan is great, he's trustful, and a good man. Fenris has some problem but he loves Hawke, it's clear and his romance also great – and just as Zevran: if Fenris turns against Hawke in romance, Hawke never cared about him. There are many (almost)pure sweet romances for straight females, I suppose. Yeah I don't get some of the criticisms. Most of the issues are completely avoidable if you take certain paths. Regardless, even if Alistair does end the relationship, he doesn't lie or use you. He makes it very clear that he's regretful, but is trying to take his new role as king (which you force him into!) seriously. You meet Zevran under less-than-great circumstances, but if you follow through with the romance he is loyal when the crisis moment happens. I have never understood the complaint about Fenris. It's always been so obvious to me that he is in pain during the scene. I don't know how anyone can look at that scene, hear his words and voice, and think that he just used you for sex. It's like we played two different games. Cullen never lies or uses you. All the rest have various issues, but these four are solid, loyal, true, and love you to death. I'm just talking about possibilities of a bad outcome in all straight female romances. Of course, if you do the right choices it can end well. The Die/lie/use, is not in all the romances too, but it's still recurrent. Thane, Alistair, Iron bull (can) die. Anders Solas, Iron bull (depends on your choices), Blackwall lie/use you. And seriously, I find Solas and BW inforgivable. Zevran can betray you (I don't remember ignoring him), Fenris well didn't know about him. Jacob, well nobody cares about him but he finds himself another woman and has a child (?)
Alistair (king route), if you want him and your warden to survive, you have to do the Dark Ritual. Meaning, he sleeps with another woman 1 has a child 2 If you're not a human noble you end up being a mistress 3.
Cullen can be driven mad by lyrium.
Not to discredit your annoyance but I think only lesbians have been devoid of romances with a bunch of drama, deceit, lies and '' bad '' endings when it comes to Dragon Age. Especially in DA:I where the biggest hurdle really is Sera's close-mindedness and that's pretty much it. And I know some lesbians really would like some drama, hopefully they get it in DA4! No problem, I can only talk about what I have experienced after all.
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