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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 13, 2017 18:51:59 GMT
So far as underwater plots go Maryden's song about Arlathan said it sank to the ocean floor, which is so different from anything we've previously been told that I wonder if that is something that will come into the future story since I'm sure it is connected with either Solas, the Blight or both. Plus Mythal was originally born of the sea so has a very strong connection with it.
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Post by ninjanightngale on Jun 13, 2017 22:41:42 GMT
I want to help May and Dorian fight the corruption in Tevinter, and I hope there is a significant storyline regarding this subject hopefully involving the Black Divine. Also, add me to the list of people who would like to help start a slave rebellion while in Tevinter, this would weaken Tevinter as a whole and make them even more vulnerable to qunari attacks possibly requiring Tevinter to ally with Orlais, Ferelden, etc., when the Qunari inevitably attack. As far as Solas' storyline, I'm hoping somehow at least some of the Evanuris find their way to Thedas because they sound like they would be the absolute best antagonists, both terrifying and intriguing. I would also like to see some griffons. I don't need to ride one because only Wardens should ride a griffon, but I would love to see one up close. Fenris. Slave rebellion. YES.
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Jun 15, 2017 0:54:17 GMT
tacsearNot confirmed. This is the speculation thread not the confirmed thread. The Titans were at war with the Evanuris. Just because we think the Evanuris were bad does not mean that those who opposed them were good. I can't begin to imagine the Titans wouldn't wake up with Vengeance on their minds- or retaking Thedas because I kinda feel like they used to own the place before the elves came along. I didn't get any information about this conflict from Shaper Valta. Was there some dialogue in Trespasser I missed, or is this something you need to have Solas in your Descent party for?
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Post by Rascoth on Jun 15, 2017 9:33:20 GMT
tacsearNot confirmed. This is the speculation thread not the confirmed thread. The Titans were at war with the Evanuris. Just because we think the Evanuris were bad does not mean that those who opposed them were good. I can't begin to imagine the Titans wouldn't wake up with Vengeance on their minds- or retaking Thedas because I kinda feel like they used to own the place before the elves came along. I didn't get any information about this conflict from Shaper Valta. Was there some dialogue in Trespasser I missed, or is this something you need to have Solas in your Descent party for? Murals in Trespasser.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 14:20:12 GMT
tacsearNot confirmed. This is the speculation thread not the confirmed thread. The Titans were at war with the Evanuris. Just because we think the Evanuris were bad does not mean that those who opposed them were good. I can't begin to imagine the Titans wouldn't wake up with Vengeance on their minds- or retaking Thedas because I kinda feel like they used to own the place before the elves came along. I didn't get any information about this conflict from Shaper Valta. Was there some dialogue in Trespasser I missed, or is this something you need to have Solas in your Descent party for? Some relevant codices: In the Temple of Mythal: Old Elven Writing "In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." Song to Elgar'nan Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder, Give us glory. Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities. Strike the usurpers with your lightning. Burn the ground under your gaze. Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work. Elgar'nan, help us tame the land. ──Song to Elgar'nan, found in the Temple of Mythal, author unknown In Trespasser: Vir Dirthara: Signs of Victory The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth. "Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!" Torn Notebook in the Deep Roads, Section 2 "These statues are older than anything I saw in my days with the clan. The area's dwarven, though. What were the ancient elves doing down here? Mining? Where were the dwarves? Easier to have them mine it. Not a trading post. You don't go into a friend's home, knock over their gods, and put up your own." War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. A metaphor for the elves of Arlathan driving the dwarves underground? The Qunari like metaphors. I should share that. Long story short, an Evanuris whose name literally translates as "Spirit of Vengeance" (Elgar'nan) led the elves against the Titans, and presumably won. Mythal also killed a Titan: Veilfire Runes in the Deep RoadsIn the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting: "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!" For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." The effects of this slaying may have ultimately been the source of the Blight.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 16, 2017 7:25:30 GMT
I didn't get any information about this conflict from Shaper Valta. Was there some dialogue in Trespasser I missed, or is this something you need to have Solas in your Descent party for? Some relevant codices: In the Temple of Mythal: Old Elven Writing "In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." Song to Elgar'nan Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder, Give us glory. Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities. Strike the usurpers with your lightning. Burn the ground under your gaze. Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work. Elgar'nan, help us tame the land. ──Song to Elgar'nan, found in the Temple of Mythal, author unknown In Trespasser: Vir Dirthara: Signs of Victory The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth. "Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!" Torn Notebook in the Deep Roads, Section 2 "These statues are older than anything I saw in my days with the clan. The area's dwarven, though. What were the ancient elves doing down here? Mining? Where were the dwarves? Easier to have them mine it. Not a trading post. You don't go into a friend's home, knock over their gods, and put up your own." War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. A metaphor for the elves of Arlathan driving the dwarves underground? The Qunari like metaphors. I should share that. Long story short, an Evanuris whose name literally translates as "Spirit of Vengeance" (Elgar'nan) led the elves against the Titans, and presumably won. Mythal also killed a Titan: Veilfire Runes in the Deep RoadsIn the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting: "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!" For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." The effects of this slaying may have ultimately been the source of the Blight. Oooh interesting. I still think the blight comes from the void and was initially brought over by andruil though. Perhaps the evanuris blighted a titan and attempted to weaponize it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 15:55:57 GMT
Some relevant codices: In the Temple of Mythal: Old Elven Writing "In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." Song to Elgar'nan Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder, Give us glory. Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities. Strike the usurpers with your lightning. Burn the ground under your gaze. Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work. Elgar'nan, help us tame the land. ──Song to Elgar'nan, found in the Temple of Mythal, author unknown In Trespasser: Vir Dirthara: Signs of Victory The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth. "Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!" Torn Notebook in the Deep Roads, Section 2 "These statues are older than anything I saw in my days with the clan. The area's dwarven, though. What were the ancient elves doing down here? Mining? Where were the dwarves? Easier to have them mine it. Not a trading post. You don't go into a friend's home, knock over their gods, and put up your own." War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. A metaphor for the elves of Arlathan driving the dwarves underground? The Qunari like metaphors. I should share that. Long story short, an Evanuris whose name literally translates as "Spirit of Vengeance" (Elgar'nan) led the elves against the Titans, and presumably won. Mythal also killed a Titan: Veilfire Runes in the Deep RoadsIn the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting: "Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!" For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." The effects of this slaying may have ultimately been the source of the Blight. Oooh interesting. I still think the blight comes from the void and was initially brought over by andruil though. Perhaps the evanuris blighted a titan and attempted to weaponize it? But where is the Void? There is an awful lot of open space inside a Titan, just sayin'. Andruil crafted weapons from the Void, which drove her mad and poisoned her lands, yes. Which sounds suspiciously like red lyrium's effects on both the Templars and the Emprise du Lion. It has been theorized that she made weapons with red lyrium, which would likely have come from a Blighted Titan, so yes, I think they did try to weaponize it further, and that was why Solas (likely with Mythal's help, until she was killed) had to stop them.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 16, 2017 15:58:57 GMT
Oooh interesting. I still think the blight comes from the void and was initially brought over by andruil though. Perhaps the evanuris blighted a titan and attempted to weaponize it? But where is the Void? There is an awful lot of open space inside a Titan, just sayin'. Andruil crafted weapons from the Void, which drove her mad and poisoned her lands, yes. Which sounds suspiciously like red lyrium's effects on both the Templars and the Emprise du Lion. It has been theorized that she made weapons with red lyrium, which would likely have come from a Blighted Titan, so yes, I think they did try to weaponize it further, and that was why Solas (likely with Mythal's help, until she was killed) had to stop them. I think the void is another plane just like the crossroads and (although artificially constructed) the fade. I don't think that the blight comes from within titans naturally or else we would only have red lyrium.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 17:21:09 GMT
But where is the Void? There is an awful lot of open space inside a Titan, just sayin'. Andruil crafted weapons from the Void, which drove her mad and poisoned her lands, yes. Which sounds suspiciously like red lyrium's effects on both the Templars and the Emprise du Lion. It has been theorized that she made weapons with red lyrium, which would likely have come from a Blighted Titan, so yes, I think they did try to weaponize it further, and that was why Solas (likely with Mythal's help, until she was killed) had to stop them. I think the void is another plane just like the crossroads and (although artificially constructed) the fade. I don't think that the blight comes from within titans naturally or else we would only have red lyrium. It might come from them naturally, if lyrium can be corrupted by magic, like Solas claims at the beginning of Inquisition. Sundering a Titan with massive amounts of magic could have been disastrous if that was the case. The Void may well be another plane, but it also wouldn't be the first time the game had multiple names for the same thing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 16, 2017 18:47:00 GMT
Just throw in another little titbit to the mix. In the Descent the area inside the Titan is known as the Wellspring. The Maker is also know as the Wellspring of All in the Canticle of Andraste which recounts her first encounter with the Maker. There is also a codex in the Descent about a dwarf tunnelling down until he broke through to the sky. The inside of a living Titan is very bright and verdant for somewhere so deep underground.
In the Canticle of Trials she says that if she has faith in the Maker, "Though all about me is shadow, yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." Then in Threnodies she says that where the Maker has turned away his face there is a Void and that sinners who pass out of this world wander in the Void. Two things here. Firstly, the "Beyond" is what the elves call the Fade, so either Andraste was familiar with the term or this part of the Chant was written by elves. Whilst it would seem that both the Void and the Beyond refer to somewhere in the Fade, we also know that Andruil was said to have hunted in the Void, so it is possible that someone could pass through the Fade in order to get to this other place.
If the Golden City was in fact based on the sleeping form of a living Titan, then the Black City could be the body of a dead one and there was a gateway between the two (all originally created by the Evanuris as a bridge between the material world and the Fade). Solas formed the Veil in order to entrap the gods and prevent anyone else from accessing their prison. Solas says that blood magic blocks his connection to the Fade which is why he doesn't use it but in the past we have always understood that blood magic is meant to thin the Veil so surely it should have made his contact easier. If Solas was speaking the truth (possibly not) then perhaps blood magic doesn't thin the barrier to the Fade but the Void and this is where blood magic gets its power from. When the Magisters opened a portal intending to access the Golden City, the huge blood sacrifice instead opened up the gateway to the Void, also known as the Black City. It was also this place that Tamlen could see in the eluvian in the Dalish origin in DAO as at that time the eluvian was corrupt and opened into that place, which is why darkspawn could leave by it.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 16, 2017 19:10:46 GMT
Just throw in another little titbit to the mix. In the Descent the area inside the Titan is known as the Wellspring. The Maker is also know as the Wellspring of All in the Canticle of Andraste which recounts her first encounter with the Maker. There is also a codex in the Descent about a dwarf tunnelling down until he broke through to the sky. The inside of a living Titan is very bright and verdant for somewhere so deep underground. In the Canticle of Trials she says that if she has faith in the Maker, "Though all about me is shadow, yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." Then in Threnodies she says that where the Maker has turned away his face there is a Void and that sinners who pass out of this world wander in the Void. Two things here. Firstly, the "Beyond" is what the elves call the Fade, so either Andraste was familiar with the term or this part of the Chant was written by elves. Whilst it would seem that both the Void and the Beyond refer to somewhere in the Fade, we also know that Andruil was said to have hunted in the Void, so it is possible that someone could pass through the Fade in order to get to this other place. If the Golden City was in fact based on the sleeping form of a living Titan, then the Black City could be the body of a dead one and there was a gateway between the two (all originally created by the Evanuris as a bridge between the material world and the Fade). Solas formed the Veil in order to entrap the gods and prevent anyone else from accessing their prison. Solas says that blood magic blocks his connection to the Fade which is why he doesn't use it but in the past we have always understood that blood magic is meant to thin the Veil so surely it should have made his contact easier. If Solas was speaking the truth (possibly not) then perhaps blood magic doesn't thin the barrier to the Fade but the Void and this is where blood magic gets its power from. When the Magisters opened a portal intending to access the Golden City, the huge blood sacrifice instead opened up the gateway to the Void, also known as the Black City. It was also this place that Tamlen could see in the eluvian in the Dalish origin in DAO as at that time the eluvian was corrupt and opened into that place, which is why darkspawn could leave by it. This is some fun theory crafting. I believe that Arlathan is the black city, and Arlathan being built out of the body of a dead titan sounds just like the sort of thing the evanuris would do. What better way to defile the body of a titan? My only problem with your statements so far is that the fade didn't exist during the time of the evanuris. So I like the theory that the void is on its own plane. Andruil brought the blight from the void. Andruil and others went to work weaponizing the blight by infecting at least 1 titan with it so they could start farming red lyrium. They created red lyrium weapons, the idol in da2, red lyrium vallaslin (I think true elven vallaslin is made with lyrium. Like what Fenris has and there are those elf murals in DAI with zombie elves with red markings), and waged war with those weapons. Arlathan became blighted through the conflict.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 16, 2017 19:26:06 GMT
Just going to repost a theory I had from a few months back...
When Corypheus first awakens, he says "The City.. It was supposed to be Golden!"
I've always wondered if the "Golden" City was merely an illusion, a shiny lure the Old Gods used to trick to the Magisters into entering/breaching the Black City to... corrupt them? After which the Golden illusion was dropped.
Definitely a larger plan at work.
On a similar tangent, perhaps the Golden City was originally a (captured?) Titan, a city carved into it and doubling a living power source. The Blight was created there, corrupted the Titan and they had to imprison it. A blighted Titan empowering the Magisters kinda makes sense since we know one could empower dwarves in Descent. The Titan's music/Blight's music. Whispers to a Magister...
Continuing on that previous line of thought (Black City - Blighted Titan), I just wanted to ramble out a theory on how the Old Gods might fit into this.
- It's been hinted that the Old Gods were spirits originally, and we know there were even spirit teachers among the Ancient Elves. - The Old Gods were said to teach magic to humans... as well as Blood Magic. - We know from Mythal that an Evanuris could be slain and later possess/merge with any willing host. - The Archdemons and Corypheus could also do something very similar... but only with creatures tied to the Blight. - And it's important to note that spirits who are slain typically lose their identity/memories/power, even if they are reborn later. Thanks for that Solas & JoH.
Could the Old Gods have originally been spirits/demons who became envious of the Evanuris' immortality/power (perhaps were slaves?)... and wanted to become Gods themselves?
What if the spirit/demon predecessors of the Old Gods tied themselves to the Titan's power? What if they created the Blight (through blood magic & the Titan's power) and "infected" the Titan with the goal of using its power to corrupt, control and achieve a level of immortality they envied in the Evanuris? To become "Gods" themselves with ever-growing legions of followers?
Now, back on Thedas the imprisoned Old Gods had the power similar to the Titan's Song, but were not tied to the Blight. Which makes me think things didn't quite go as planned. Maybe the Evanuris noticed the Blight taking hold of what would become the Black City and swiftly moved to imprison it. The Old Gods are now forced to flee, possessed or took on the form of dragons, and hid, hibernated, or were imprisoned as punishment.
But while they had power from the Titan, they weren't tied to the Blight and therefore still vulnerable to being killed (and losing their identity). So they dangle the carrot of the "Golden City of the Gods" to the Tevinter Magisters. They breach the prison, become corrupted by the now fully Blighted Titan, and bring the first Darkspawn to Thedas. And that might explain why they tempted the Magisters to enter the Black City in the first place, their hatred of the Elves, and why the Darkspawn are drawn to the call of the Old Gods. The Old Gods want to be corrupted and tied to the Blight (and the power/control/immortality it offers), but perhaps it came at a cost they didn't expect.
The big wrinkle in their plan though were the mortal races learning to use the Blight to their advantage: Grey Wardens & the original DS Magisters (who were corrupted/empowered by the source of the Blight).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 16, 2017 21:38:42 GMT
Small correction to the assertion about the Fade not existing at the time of the Evanuris. It was the Veil that did not exist. The Fade has always existed and the only thing in question is whether it preceded the formation of Thedas, as the Chant suggests, or whether they have always existed in tandem. Solas made it quite clear that before he created the Veil it was possible for spirits to pass easily from the Fade to the material world. However, it seems that it may not have been so easy to pass back in the opposite direction and retain your bodily form. Hence the Forbidden Ones abandoning their forms in order to flee back into the Fade in order to avoid the wrath of the earth (presumably at the time of the battle with the Titans). It might also explain why the ancient ones entered uthenera in order to explore the Fade rather than simply walking into it.
It seems clear that the Evanuris developed the Crossroads and associated structures as a sort of bridge between the material world and the Fade, allowing them to draw from the Fade more easily in order to create their marvellous constructions. I think this is why many of the memories in the library seem to speak of a city and walkways that seem suspended in the air and why Morrigan states that the Crossroads is not actually in the Fade but very close to it and from where it would be easier to access it.
I agree with you Hrungr that I think the Magisters were lured into entering the Black City, quite possibly by an illusion, but certainly with the intention of releasing the Blight. It isn't entirely clear but there were hints in the memories in the Nightmare's lair that the Old Gods had already stopped communicating before the Magisters undertook their mission, in which case it was not hubris but an attempt to discover why the gods were no longer speaking that caused Corypheus and his fellows to do what they did. Both ancient human and Dalish lore seem to agree that the Golden City was home to their gods and Andraste also taught it was the home of the ultimate god, yet Corypheus and co found it black and empty. So either there were two different locations but only one appeared at any one time in the Fade and they simply opened the gate to the Black one, making that the one that was visible in the Fade, or it had been corrupted at the time of the Evanuris but the illusion of a Golden City remained until the Magisters revealed it as a false vision.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 21:39:32 GMT
Just throw in another little titbit to the mix. In the Descent the area inside the Titan is known as the Wellspring. The Maker is also know as the Wellspring of All in the Canticle of Andraste which recounts her first encounter with the Maker. There is also a codex in the Descent about a dwarf tunnelling down until he broke through to the sky. The inside of a living Titan is very bright and verdant for somewhere so deep underground. In the Canticle of Trials she says that if she has faith in the Maker, "Though all about me is shadow, yet shall the Maker be my guide. I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond." Then in Threnodies she says that where the Maker has turned away his face there is a Void and that sinners who pass out of this world wander in the Void. Two things here. Firstly, the "Beyond" is what the elves call the Fade, so either Andraste was familiar with the term or this part of the Chant was written by elves. Whilst it would seem that both the Void and the Beyond refer to somewhere in the Fade, we also know that Andruil was said to have hunted in the Void, so it is possible that someone could pass through the Fade in order to get to this other place. If the Golden City was in fact based on the sleeping form of a living Titan, then the Black City could be the body of a dead one and there was a gateway between the two (all originally created by the Evanuris as a bridge between the material world and the Fade). Solas formed the Veil in order to entrap the gods and prevent anyone else from accessing their prison. Solas says that blood magic blocks his connection to the Fade which is why he doesn't use it but in the past we have always understood that blood magic is meant to thin the Veil so surely it should have made his contact easier. If Solas was speaking the truth (possibly not) then perhaps blood magic doesn't thin the barrier to the Fade but the Void and this is where blood magic gets its power from. When the Magisters opened a portal intending to access the Golden City, the huge blood sacrifice instead opened up the gateway to the Void, also known as the Black City. It was also this place that Tamlen could see in the eluvian in the Dalish origin in DAO as at that time the eluvian was corrupt and opened into that place, which is why darkspawn could leave by it. My only problem with your statements so far is that the fade didn't exist during the time of the evanuris. Do you mean that the Veil did not exist? The Fade did exist, it simply was not separated from the world by the Veil. It was more like an ocean that anyone could put their foot in, or like Solas said, a fast flowing river.
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Post by lucidae on Jun 16, 2017 21:53:34 GMT
My only problem with your statements so far is that the fade didn't exist during the time of the evanuris. Do you mean that the Veil did not exist, because the Fade did exist, it simply was not separated from the world by the Veil. It was more like an ocean that anyone could put their foot in, or like Solas said, a fast flowing river. My understanding was that the fade was a part of Thedas prior to the veil. They were one on the same. So I guess in my head the fade technically couldn't have existed because the fade is a separate entity and only existed as such after solas' actions. Someone wouldn't travel through the Fade to get to the beyond or the void because you didn't go to the Fade then. You lived in a world where what became the fade was a part of your natural existence. There is also the part in trespasser where you can ask solas that he created the fade and he says yes. <- Think I may be wrong here. Haven't found this on youtube with the 5 minutes I tried looking for it lol. Thought I could remember my character saying something like "Wait, you created the fade?" But it's been so long my memory is hazy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 22:18:51 GMT
Do you mean that the Veil did not exist, because the Fade did exist, it simply was not separated from the world by the Veil. It was more like an ocean that anyone could put their foot in, or like Solas said, a fast flowing river. My understanding was that the fade was a part of Thedas prior to the veil. They were one on the same. So I guess in my head the fade technically couldn't have existed because the fade is a separate entity and only existed as such after solas' actions. Someone wouldn't travel through the Fade to get to the beyond or the void because you didn't go to the Fade then. You lived in a world where what became the fade was a part of your natural existence. There is also the part in trespasser where you can ask solas that he created the fade and he says yes. Solas said he created the Veil, not the Fade. Like both water and air, you need to either know how to swim or to fly to enter them more than superficially, but they're still a part of our world, like the Fade was in Thedas, back before the Veil. Here's the full transcribed dialogue chart, if you want to confirm for yourself what Solas says: i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1Here's a codex that specifically names the Fade as a separate entity in Pre-Veil Elvhenan: Vir Dirthara: The Deepest FadeThe pages of this book—memory?—are instructions on how to reach the deepest parts of the Fade, realms so far removed they're unmarked by Dreamers: "Epiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." This codex also states that there is more than one realm to the Fade, so there's food for thought. :heh:
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Post by lucidae on Jun 16, 2017 22:36:23 GMT
Solas said he created the Veil, not the Fade. Like both water and air, you need to either know how to swim or to fly to enter them more than superficially, but they're still a part of our world, like the Fade was in Thedas, back before the Veil. Here's the full transcribed dialogue chart, if you want to confirm for yourself what Solas says: i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1Here's a codex that specifically names the Fade as a separate entity in Pre-Veil Elvhenan: Vir Dirthara: The Deepest FadeThe pages of this book—memory?—are instructions on how to reach the deepest parts of the Fade, realms so far removed they're unmarked by Dreamers: "Epiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." This codex also states that there is more than one realm to the Fade, so there's food for thought. :heh: Thanks for sharing! I did not know about pre-veil mentions of the fade. So I saw it as: the world didn't call it the fade until the veil was brought up, because prior to the veil it was just part of the world.
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Post by Sairys on Jun 18, 2017 7:26:56 GMT
However it goes, I hope that the Solasmancers get closure and yet those who want to kill the sonofabitch for dooming the world can get their own kind of closure too.
I wonder if they are entertaining the idea that this is the last of the DA series so they'll go out with a bang by dropping the veil and destroying us all regardless of which choice we make ala Mass Effect 3. I would truly hate Bioware for that.
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Post by snook on Jun 18, 2017 7:42:57 GMT
Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, but I kind of hope the 'redeem Solas' option is a lost cause. And I hope my Lavellan, who will definitely be trying, ends up wielding the murder knife herself. For maximum drama and such.
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Post by Sairys on Jun 18, 2017 8:01:02 GMT
I feel like it kind of fits him. Solas has more than a little bit of an ego to him. He knows what's best and what's right and if you disagree with him, he won't necessarily argue until the end or anything, but he'll roll his eyes at you for being a silly mortal who doesn't understand the world like he does. Even the way he takes responsibility is rather self-centered. As far as he's concerned, it was his action, and only his, that "doomed" the world. Everything is the fault of the Veil. So him seeing the other Evanuris as "evil", simply because he disagreed with them, is rather apropos to him, I think. What an incredible god of deception, to have convinced himself of something that isn't true, as well! Oh, Solas definitely has a huge ego and is incredibly stubborn, way more than he'd like to admit. Those are some of his major character flaws which make him Solas. And perhaps he did view them in a worse light simply because they were his enemies, but that doesn't necessarily make them good people. All the codex entries imply that the Evanuris were incredibly conceited and obsessed with power. Solas says that Mythal was the best of them, but I think that his perception of her might be a little skewed, and it would be interesting if she somehow turned out to be the real threat. Which I think she will. Another thing is that Solas isn't actually the god of deception, he's the god of rebellion. I think he started to be regarded as the god of deception after he went into uthenera because of a mistranslation, I think. So, I agree that he isn't a 100 % reliable source on what the Evanuris were like, but there's other evidence. I think the Evanuris might have been essentially good at the beginning, when they were just war generals, but became slowly corrupted with power and started oppressing their people with it.I think that the setup for the next game is pretty good, and I can't wait to see where they go with it. And then humans did exactly the same thing. Mages in Tevinter, a handful got really corrupted with power, got into the Black City (which might be Arlathan) and really messed shit up for everyone. It just kills me that history keeps repeating itself. So now we have an elven god who says he's not a god (cuz he doesn't want to be associated with his peers that murdered Mythal) yet rather than working within the parameters of the consequences of his previous actions he feels he has the god-like authority to raze the world by dropping the veil and sacrificing everyone that isn't one of his "people."
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Post by Sairys on Jun 18, 2017 8:03:50 GMT
I'm getting a vibe that 'Dylan' and DA4 will release more closely to each other than other instalments of late. Anyone else getting that feeling that both of those games are nicely along? I think DA4 definitely had a head-start in development since it's a continuation of DA3. They've stated that DAI had so much they had to cut it short and save the rest for the next game, so a lot of it was already written. They also have a head-start in having the hurdles covered in working out the problems of Frostbite engine with an RPG game.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 18, 2017 8:27:01 GMT
However it goes, I hope that the Solasmancers get closure and yet those who want to kill the sonofabitch for dooming the world can get their own kind of closure too. I wonder if they are entertaining the idea that this is the last of the DA series so they'll go out with a bang by dropping the veil and destroying us all regardless of which choice we make ala Mass Effect 3. I would truly hate Bioware for that. They originally had a (vague) five game plan, and DAI was only the first half of the originally-planned third installment. (Which is not to say that plans can't change - they already have, obviously, with DAI and DA4 being two games instead of one. Just that the series was not meant to be a set length, and was certainly not meant to end with the game that is now going to be DA4.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2017 15:10:27 GMT
I don't think that Fen'Harel being seen as the god of deception is down to mistranslation at all. He admits that his enemies gave him the name. In that message from the Evanuris they warn against trusting him, that he will "appear in humble guises" and that he will "offer advice that seems fair but turns slowly to poison". That is a poetic way of saying that he is a liar and not to be trusted. So Dread Wolf means exactly that. It is clear that the modern Dalish descend from elves in the opposing camp to Fen'Harel or simply those who were pissed off with him after he raised the Veil (as we hear in the memories in the Library).
So in fact it was the scholars of the university of Orlais who got it wrong because Fen'Harel was only seen as a term of rebellion to his own followers when he appropriated the insult given to him by the Evanuris and gave it a positive spin to encourage them in their struggle against their enemies.
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Post by tacsear on Jun 19, 2017 17:29:35 GMT
I've posted this in some other thread as well but I would like to speculate on it:
Now at first this seems like a hint for the events of DAI, but after Trespasser it is more clear that Sandal is talking about Fen'Harel and his plans on removing the Veil. I think that Solas will succeed in his plans but without the mass destruction part and Thedas will be like in the Days of Arlathan.I'm not sure I like the idea but there it is. It feels like the synthesis ending for ME3 but better built. They have been hinting this big change since the beggining of DAO where Flemeth talks to the Warden, so unlike ME3 this can be a believable ending for the series but if this happens all of our choices will be meaningless probably.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 19, 2017 17:46:23 GMT
I don't think that Fen'Harel being seen as the god of deception is down to mistranslation at all. He admits that his enemies gave him the name. In that message from the Evanuris they warn against trusting him, that he will "appear in humble guises" and that he will "offer advice that seems fair but turns slowly to poison". That is a poetic way of saying that he is a liar and not to be trusted. So Dread Wolf means exactly that. It is clear that the modern Dalish descend from elves in the opposing camp to Fen'Harel or simply those who were pissed off with him after he raised the Veil (as we hear in the memories in the Library). Hang on... the codex you mention carries all the marks of being a piece of propaganda meant to discourage from listening to Fen'Harel, who more than likely (through argumentation) has managed to seed doubt in Evanuris' followers. In fact, the codex doesn't focus on deception of the wolf much, but the consequences of turning against the gods - in other words, it literally ends with a veiled threat/blackmail meant to remind people who to stay loyal to. So Evanuris warning against the deception of Fen'Harel is in itself a deception. ... So why would that make Fen'Harel the 'god of deception'? We don't know the full extent of Solas's history and his relationships with each individual Evanuris, but the clues that we have point to Solas being linked to imagery of the wolf long before his rebellion (the statues accompanying statues of Mythal in Deep Roads sections of Trespasser that were noted to be extremely ancient, as well as multiple times in vanilla game where we see statues of wolves accompanying Mythal's dragon). So Fen'Harel might have been seen as an insult, but for entirely different reasons than just calling him a deceiver or liar. It might have been an insult in the vein of "oh look, Mythal's lap dog tries to bite the hand hat fed him" or "oooh, look at the scaaaaary big bad wolf, ahaha" or whatever else he was seen as by other Evanuris when he chose to rebel. I mean, heck - as in many authoritarian structures, the Evanuris seem to prize loyalty/worship of their followers above everything else. So rebellion would be as big of a no-no in their society as, say, deception. IMO it was likely something that eventually had to be either considered something neutral-ish, or something that could change meaning depending on context (like we see many times with elvhen language).
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