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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 18:36:53 GMT
I've always thought of ME3 as a linear game and have referenced it as my preference in story driven game telling, along with DE:HR, as opposed to something open like Skyrim. However I was just listening to the Podquisition (no.106 01:17) and Gav said that ME3 was famous for 'fucking up it's non-linear story and wasn't able to tie up it's loose threads very well'.
I know we all disagree on whether 3 was any good or not but looking at it objectively, do you think it's a linear game? In my mind it is as it has far more structure than the previous two. ME1 has barely any with most of the game wide open, ME2 is more linear I guess, but with ME3 you start with the genophage, then the citadel, move on to the Quarians and end with the Reapers. You can't move ahead and do things out of order, even tho there's some give with the side missions.
Thoughts?
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Post by stephenw32768 on Jun 18, 2017 18:40:25 GMT
The main story is linear; one must complete the Priority missions in order. The sidequests are non-linear; giving the player the choice about when to do the N7 missions, DLC etc. helps to disguise the linearity somewhat.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Jun 18, 2017 20:23:37 GMT
The main story is linear; one must complete the Priority missions in order. The sidequests are non-linear; giving the player the choice about when to do the N7 missions, DLC etc. helps to disguise the linearity somewhat. I pretty much agree with stephenw32768's assessment. The games themselves got more 'linear' throughout the games. Mass Effect 1 was the most non-linear of the series. It is also feels the most unfocused as a result. You had the main story missions that progressed the plot (Eden Prime > Citadel > Therum > Noveria > Feros > Virmire > Ilos > Citadel). You had the option of performing Therum, Noveria, and Feros (and later Virmire) in any order you chose, but except for some different Liara dialogue, it did not matter what order you chose. The DLC missions and secondary missions/planets were also so far removed from the story that it actually took away from the main story. So the game/story was not linear, but if you wanted to complete everything then the main story took a back seat for large portions of the game. Mass Effect 2 was a little more linear, with some plot-required missions forced on you at certain points (Horizon and Collector Ship. Derelict Reaper was required to progress but you could take your time to get to it). Like Mass Effect 1, each mission progressed the same regardless of order, but you had more recruitment and loyalty missions that you could take on in almost any order. But because of how the Suicide Mission plays out, completing or ignoring some recruitment and loyalty missions could some end game variables and potentially imports into ME3. Recruiting squadmates for the suicide mission and getting them loyal was part of the plot, so a lot of the 'optional' missions felt relevant to the main plot, so even performing them in a non-linear fashion still felt natural to the game. N7 missions were brief so they did not distract from the main plot and so did not make it feel like you were ignoring anything urgent, unlike ME1 and ME3. Mass Effect 3 was certainly the most linear, with predetermined story arcs: Tuchanka/genophage > Geth/Quarian War > Pursuit and destruction of Cerberus (I feel like I am stretching on this last one a bit). But each arc did have some non-linearity to them depending on mission order, plus events from ME1 and ME2 could also alter the story in those arcs. One of ME3's big problems though -- in my opinion -- was that all these arcs were seen as urgent ("cure the genophage so the Krogan will help the Turians!" and "stop the war before the Quarians are wiped out!" and "get all the help you can before the galaxy is destroyed!"), but you could play all the DLC and secondary missions and no one seems to care. Sure, keep making trips back to the Citadel, the Turians or Quarians will not get slaughtered in the meantime. So yeah. I may have went on a big, stupid, needless rant there. Sorry. So yeah. I agree with stephenw32768. I probably should not have written all that.
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Post by stephenw32768 on Jun 18, 2017 21:32:19 GMT
One of ME3's big problems though -- in my opinion -- was that all these arcs were seen as urgent ("cure the genophage so the Krogan will help the Turians!" and "stop the war before the Quarians are wiped out!" and "get all the help you can before the galaxy is destroyed!"), but you could play all the DLC and secondary missions and no one seems to care. Sure, keep making trips back to the Citadel, the Turians or Quarians will not get slaughtered in the meantime. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeYourTimeAs with pretty much everything about Mass Effect, it's different strokes for different folks — I personally prefer ME3's approach over ME2's railroading me into doing Horizon and the Collector ship at predetermined points. Perhaps it's because I came to Mass Effect from a JRPG background, where it's fairly normal/common for the main story to patiently wait for the player to grind levels or do sidequests.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 22:05:34 GMT
I agree with Red Caesar and stephenw32768. I'm not sure what loose ends in the main story are being referred to in the podcast... I'm not aware of any that were left hanging. Even the side missions that expire are generally tied off in some fashion before the end game... e.g The Turian bomb on Tuchanka is noted as having gone off if the quest is left undone. Heck, the game is preoccupied with revisiting characters and events from ME1 and ME2... so it even ties off a lot of loose ends regarding those minor characters... e.g. General Oraka, Charr and Ereba, Michael and Rebekkah, Conrad Verner and Jenna, and even Refund Guy.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 19, 2017 3:23:24 GMT
The main story is linear; one must complete the Priority missions in order. The sidequests are non-linear; giving the player the choice about when to do the N7 missions, DLC etc. helps to disguise the linearity somewhat. Not entirely true. Many side missions will time out if not completed before Priority missions. Some side missions don't time out until much later while others can't be completed until certain events happen. So while the order in which you do side missions is optional they still have to be completed prior to certain events (aside from the obvious, which is Cronus). I'd say this is a largely linear game with some elements that are non-linear.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 19, 2017 5:38:09 GMT
Not entirely true. Many side missions will time out if not completed before Priority missions. Some side missions don't time out until much later while others can't be completed until certain events happen. So while the order in which you do side missions is optional they still have to be completed prior to certain events (aside from the obvious, which is Cronus). I'd say this is a largely linear game with some elements that are non-linear. Grissom Academy and rescuing the turians on Tuchanka are the only ones that are times. I could add the turian bomb, but that depends on when the turians are rescued. If the turians are rescued, the player can complete two missions before having to do the turian bomb mission otherwise the bomb goes boom. Grissom has to be completed before Citadel coup. Rescuing the turians has to be completed before Thessia otherwise that mission is removed from the galaxy map
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 8:23:14 GMT
I agree with Red Caesar and stephenw32768. I'm not sure what loose ends in the main story are being referred to in the podcast... I'm not aware of any that were left hanging. Even the side missions that expire are generally tied off in some fashion before the end game... e.g The Turian bomb on Tuchanka is noted as having gone off if the quest is left undone. Heck, the game is preoccupied with revisiting characters and events from ME1 and ME2... so it even ties off a lot of loose ends regarding those minor characters... e.g. General Oraka, Charr and Ereba, Michael and Rebekkah, Conrad Verner and Jenna, and even Refund Guy. That confused me too...I wonder if he just rushed thru the game.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 19, 2017 17:20:46 GMT
Given 'linear' is something of a binary characteristic - a game is linear or it is not - then no, ME3 isn't. It's not open world of course, but that doesn't make it linear either. Most Bioware games aren't actually linear.
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Post by brfritos on Jun 20, 2017 7:30:13 GMT
Not entirely true. Many side missions will time out if not completed before Priority missions. Some side missions don't time out until much later while others can't be completed until certain events happen. So while the order in which you do side missions is optional they still have to be completed prior to certain events (aside from the obvious, which is Cronus). I'd say this is a largely linear game with some elements that are non-linear. Grissom Academy and rescuing the turians on Tuchanka are the only ones that are times. I could add the turian bomb, but that depends on when the turians are rescued. If the turians are rescued, the player can complete two missions before having to do the turian bomb mission otherwise the bomb goes boom. Grissom has to be completed before Citadel coup. Rescuing the turians has to be completed before Thessia otherwise that mission is removed from the galaxy map
On a off-topic note, regardless the linearity or not of ME3, I think the vanilla game really screw the puch when you left some missions unatended. The only one that have detrimental effects is the bomb on Tuchanka, the rest only count as flavor.
I can understand why Bioware did it that way, since people can skip those missions, lower their EMS and get the real destroy ending, where basically the galaxy is reduced to the dark ages (no mass relays, most worlds destroyed, almost no survivors, etc). But this only reinforce the railroading of the game.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 9:57:10 GMT
On a off-topic note, regardless the linearity or not of ME3, I think the vanilla game really screw the puch when you left some missions unatended. The only one that have detrimental effects is the bomb on Tuchanka, the rest only count as flavor. I can understand why Bioware did it that way, since people can skip those missions, lower their EMS and get the real destroy ending, where basically the galaxy is reduced to the dark ages (no mass relays, most worlds destroyed, almost no survivors, etc). But this only reinforce the railroading of the game.
I don't see it as an issue tbh. It's only 2 missions and it gives the game some drama and a sense of urgency. The one time I ignored Grissom Academy my renegade Shep then found a blood splattered bed in the Cerberus headquarters, and a datapad where he hears Jack being tortured. He'd been in a relationship with her and hadn't realised she was at the academy, it was an awful moment for him and quite chilling. Then he ignored the bomb and his work to save Eve and the Krogan was wiped out in one hit. His lazy half-assed approach really came back to bite him in the butt and it was awfully wonderful to witness. So I like them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 9:58:22 GMT
Given 'linear' is something of a binary characteristic - a game is linear or it is not - then no, ME3 isn't. It's not open world of course, but that doesn't make it linear either. Most Bioware games aren't actually linear. Yeah, I guess it's in between. Someone will have to invent a silly name for it like open linear or something.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 20, 2017 15:19:10 GMT
I can understand why Bioware did it that way, since people can skip those missions, lower their EMS and get the real destroy ending, where basically the galaxy is reduced to the dark ages (no mass relays, most worlds destroyed, almost no survivors, etc). But this only reinforce the railroading of the game.
If the player chooses to not save the turians, the bomb never goes boom. No loss of assets. The only loss by not completing them is some war assets from the turians
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Post by brfritos on Jun 21, 2017 11:56:55 GMT
On a off-topic note, regardless the linearity or not of ME3, I think the vanilla game really screw the puch when you left some missions unatended. The only one that have detrimental effects is the bomb on Tuchanka, the rest only count as flavor. I can understand why Bioware did it that way, since people can skip those missions, lower their EMS and get the real destroy ending, where basically the galaxy is reduced to the dark ages (no mass relays, most worlds destroyed, almost no survivors, etc). But this only reinforce the railroading of the game.
I don't see it as an issue tbh. It's only 2 missions and it gives the game some drama and a sense of urgency. The one time I ignored Grissom Academy my renegade Shep then found a blood splattered bed in the Cerberus headquarters, and a datapad where he hears Jack being tortured. He'd been in a relationship with her and hadn't realised she was at the academy, it was an awful moment for him and quite chilling. Then he ignored the bomb and his work to save Eve and the Krogan was wiped out in one hit. His lazy half-assed approach really came back to bite him in the butt and it was awfully wonderful to witness. So I like them. Maybe that's just me, but I didn't felt a sense of "urgency" when I played ME3 for the first time. Based on the first two games and how usually RPG works I was positive that if I received a mission between the main ones, the side missions could've been completed at any time. The bomb exploding is actually a nice touch that goes against this mechanic, since in the vanilla game you have two "spare missions" to complete after you solve the Genophage arc before the bomb goes off.
But maybe if there were more things like this, the sense of urgency could be better reinforced. For example, if you didn't solved the Rachni mission, as you progress sometimes you receive a message that "something" is attacking your ground forces and you loose some assets. Nothing extremelly major that screw the player, just something that reinforce the urgency of the war and the need to pick up your battles. I think this would add to the game, like for example Balak did. In my paragade playthrough, which was my first time playing also, I killed him at the refugee camp. And then the decision bite me in the back. And wow! The Grissom/Jack situation must have been hard. I'm speechless. I bet you've been asking yourself for a good portion of the game "where the hell is Jack"?
One thing I like a lot in ME3 it's the dark tone of the narrative and sometimes unforgiven situtions we dig ourselves into.
I can understand why Bioware did it that way, since people can skip those missions, lower their EMS and get the real destroy ending, where basically the galaxy is reduced to the dark ages (no mass relays, most worlds destroyed, almost no survivors, etc). But this only reinforce the railroading of the game.
If the player chooses to not save the turians, the bomb never goes boom. No loss of assets. The only loss by not completing them is some war assets from the turians
Sure, that's true, the bomb only goes off if you first do the Turian rescue mission, otherwise the mission stays active in your journal and galaxy map but nothing happens.
On the other hand It shouldn't and the player would've been asking themselves "WTF is going on"!
And then the opportunity to put a ear-blister rant from Hackett is losted.
This type of thing also happened with Wrex before the first patch if I recall correctly, isn't? You could betray him and never been confronted by him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 12:39:34 GMT
Given 'linear' is something of a binary characteristic - a game is linear or it is not - then no, ME3 isn't. It's not open world of course, but that doesn't make it linear either. Most Bioware games aren't actually linear. Yeah, I guess it's in between. Someone will have to invent a silly name for it like open linear or something. On a thread a month or so ago, somewhat game (s/b someone came) up with the term "modular" - works for me. (ETA: Must have still be half asleep when I typed this earlier.)
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Post by themikefest on Jun 21, 2017 13:43:01 GMT
Sure, that's true, the bomb only goes off if you first do the Turian rescue mission, otherwise the mission stays active in your journal and galaxy map but nothing happens. The mission only stays active until Thessia is completed. Then that mission is removed from the galaxy map
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 15:36:44 GMT
Yeah, I guess it's in between. Someone will have to invent a silly name for it like open linear or something. On a thread a month or so ago, somewhat game up with the term "modular" - works for me. Good word that.
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Post by LogicGunn on Jun 21, 2017 21:42:35 GMT
It's not a linear game, but it's not open world either. Linear games have a strictly defined path and sequence of events. ME3 is more explorable than that. A great example of a linear game is the first 2/3 of Final Fantasy XIII.
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