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Post by Sifr on Jun 26, 2019 23:42:00 GMT
If they'd taken the two seasons offered by HBO, that would have seriously improved the pacing, build up huge plot moments and gave us the realism of earlier seasons where travelling across Westeros took time.
By S8, going from one side of the country to the other seemed to cover less distance than an average pub crawl.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jun 29, 2019 10:44:55 GMT
I mean as a newcomer to the series she rubbed me as the misguided/egomaniacal populist type from the very start of her (shitty) journey, so seeing that dialogue doesn't exactly surprise me. She reminds me of the far left.
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Post by Sifr on Jun 29, 2019 21:27:18 GMT
She reminds me of the far left. She's reminiscent of the far right as well.
That's the thing about being at the extreme end of an ideology, it makes you an extremist.
And in the end, Dany most definitely had become one.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jun 29, 2019 22:04:43 GMT
At the end, Dany's way of thinking was definitely far left. The people don't get to choose, the person in power knows what's good for them.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 30, 2019 1:36:28 GMT
Whether she's a nazi or commie who knows, but what's more important is that she's dead, and Westeros is safe.
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Post by Lavochkin on Jun 30, 2019 20:10:53 GMT
Dany isn't exactly far left given that she's a monarchist that supports a feudal system, and on the other end, she isn't far right, as she's not about God,Blood and soil, not that she could be, as Valyrians aren't really a thing anymore anyhow.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 1, 2019 2:53:04 GMT
Dany isn't exactly far left given that she's a monarchist that supports a feudal system, and on the other end, she isn't far right, as she's not about God,Blood and soil, not that she could be, as Valyrians aren't really a thing anymore anyhow. Depends on which political spectrum you are talking about of course... That aside I started my rewatch of the entire series. Man this crap is so well written. Also feel like I am chanting out 'dead' like G'kar in that one episode of Babylon 5. My wife and I have dubbed this show 'game of ghosts'. Trying to watch this show with the foreknowledge of where it all leads is kind of eerie. Lots of thoughts, which I am sure I'll be sharing over the coming weeks.
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Post by ravenesse on Jul 2, 2019 9:28:26 GMT
Not a fan of Stannis either, but other than Shireen his character didn't especially bother me. If I get around to the books I'll probably dislike him more. 'Usually' the opposite happens.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Jul 2, 2019 16:06:06 GMT
From what I heard, Stannis in the books is far different than Stannis on GoT
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Post by Iakus on Jul 2, 2019 16:10:14 GMT
From what I heard, Stannis in the books is far different than Stannis on GoT Yeah. Some of the stuff he does in the books I wouldn't be okay with, but he had a core of integrity that was actually kind of admirable. He never sank to the depths of depravity he did by the end of his run in the show.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2019 20:53:35 GMT
From what I heard, Stannis in the books is far different than Stannis on GoT It is not just Stannis but numerous other characters where they changed important aspects to their character, their actions and the way this affects the plot in the books. Ned Stark is one of the few characters that isn't seriously altered but then that is probably because he is killed off early on. I've been re-reading the books and it is just laughable that people try to maintain the TV series only got bad after they no longer had the books to work to. They were changing things from the outset and certainly after they left behind the book the series was named after. So if you liked the series as a whole, do read the books because they have so much more to them and the TV series won't have spoiled the story because there is so much they didn't use. I can pretty much guarantee that George Martin won't resolve the character arcs in the way the TV series did or at least will explain them far better if they do end up the same.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jul 4, 2019 21:31:14 GMT
The spinoffs will tank. I don't know how you recapture the magic of the early seasons when we know how shitty everything ends.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 7, 2019 1:43:26 GMT
It is not just Stannis but numerous other characters where they changed important aspects to their character, their actions and the way this affects the plot in the books. Ned Stark is one of the few characters that isn't seriously altered but then that is probably because he is killed off early on. Ned was slightly more proactive in the books than the show, at least in the wake of Robert's death. In the books, he convened the Small Council to hear Robert's Will and agree to his appointment as Regent, knowing that he needed their support and backing as an legitimate authority before he ordered Cersei and her children be taken into custody. Ned intended on having his daughters safely aboard a ship bound North before he confronted Cersei, not only for their safely but because should anything go awry, he had instructed the Captain to deliver a message to Stannis informing him of Joffrey's illegitimacy. That would serve as his failsafe should Ned fail to be able to take Cersei into custody and remove the Lannisters from power, as then he would only need to play for time until Stannis could come to claim the throne.
Unfortunately, these plans were all scuppered by Sansa blabbing (what a bloody surprise) to Cersei about how her father was forcing them to leave the city via ship. This allowed her to arrest Ned before he could be declared Regent, as well as prevent the ship from leaving with Sansa, Arya and the message meant for Stannis.
Book Ned was a little more savvy than he was in the show, even if he was still honourable to a fault.
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cribbian
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Post by cribbian on Jul 9, 2019 19:01:25 GMT
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Post by operationathena on Jul 10, 2019 23:38:08 GMT
Thrones is such a good show, it's a shame it couldn't land the ending. Easily needed another 2 (full length) seasons to wrap everything up. That being said, it's still a major accomplishment and fantastically written. Some of the best characters ever.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 17, 2019 21:39:44 GMT
I still think they should have dedicated an entire season to the Long Night. Maybe have them forced to abandon Winterfell and retreat to the Neck to regroup, allowing them to bring back Meera and given her story some closure, in addition to introducing Howland Reed so he can further confirm Jon's parentage.
Actually if I was going to change the ending, I'd have had Dany die during an ill-fated Battle of Winterfell. Rather than go full Mad Queen, why not have her sacrifice herself to cover the retreat of the army, realising that her destiny was never to take the Iron Throne, but give Jon and the living the chance they needed to regroup and save Westeros.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Jul 17, 2019 23:46:49 GMT
A better ending.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 1, 2019 3:01:04 GMT
That should have been how the show ended.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 7, 2019 19:07:26 GMT
Also, am I the only one who thought Theon's arc was garbage? It seemed like the entire point of his character was to represent someone who needed to find their place in the world, then after all he goes through and his pardoning by Jon they just off him for...teh redemptionz? Eh, I think his ending kinda worked.
He's always struggled with his identity and feeling inadequate to the rest of the Ironborn. But in the end, he ended up being the last Ironborn left standing in the Godswood. Rather than running away, he chose to run to the Night King in a suicide charge, even knowing he had no hope in succeeding.
Although I would question how good he's supposed to be with that bow? Did the writers pull a Dany and forget that we saw him getting his fingers flayed/mutilated by Ramsay in S3?
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Post by Noxluxe on Aug 7, 2019 20:00:51 GMT
Eh, I think his ending kinda worked. He's always struggled with his identity and feeling inadequate to the rest of the Ironborn. But in the end, he ended up being the last Ironborn left standing in the Godswood. Rather than running away, he chose to run to the Night King in a suicide charge, even knowing he had no hope in succeeding.
Although I would question how good he's supposed to be with that bow? Did the writers pull a Dany and forget that we saw him getting his fingers flayed/mutilated by Ramsay in S3? That's an interesting question. I don't remember seeing enough of his actual injuries to have a real idea how functional his fingers would be, even after several years. On that note, does anyone know how people in Westeros measure time exactly? "Years" are used independently of the setting's wonky changing of the seasons, so what extent of time does the word describe and why would anyone mark it specifically? It always bothered me a little bit. But thinking about it now, considering how enormously dependent on reliable knowledge of the weather conditions agriculture has been for all of human history, I'm a little miffed that the series centers around a bunch of bloodthirsty nobles playing revenge games and not the poor medieval farmers trying to plan around winters that might hold off for a decade or strike at any moment and last hundreds of years. In that light, it's actually a miracle that Westerosi society is as functional as it is. I doubt we'd have fared nearly that well in their shoes.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 8, 2019 22:51:20 GMT
Eh, I think his ending kinda worked. He's always struggled with his identity and feeling inadequate to the rest of the Ironborn. But in the end, he ended up being the last Ironborn left standing in the Godswood. Rather than running away, he chose to run to the Night King in a suicide charge, even knowing he had no hope in succeeding.
Although I would question how good he's supposed to be with that bow? Did the writers pull a Dany and forget that we saw him getting his fingers flayed/mutilated by Ramsay in S3? That's an interesting question. I don't remember seeing enough of his actual injuries to have a real idea how functional his fingers would be, even after several years. On that note, does anyone know how people in Westeros measure time exactly? "Years" are used independently of the setting's wonky changing of the seasons, so what extent of time does the word describe and why would anyone mark it specifically? It always bothered me a little bit. But thinking about it now, considering how enormously dependent on reliable knowledge of the weather conditions agriculture has been for all of human history, I'm a little miffed that the series centers around a bunch of bloodthirsty nobles playing revenge games and not the poor medieval farmers trying to plan around winters that might hold off for a decade or strike at any moment and last hundreds of years. In that light, it's actually a miracle that Westerosi society is as functional as it is. I doubt we'd have fared nearly that well in their shoes. That would have been something I'd have addressed in the show, that food production and storage for Winter has been left in disarray throughout Westeros due to the Civil War destroying farmlands or taking farmers away to fight as soldiers.
Imagine if limited supplies in the North (maybe Ramsay burned them out of spite) forced Jon or Sansa to leave some of their own people out in the cold when winter arrived? Or if they decided to forcibly take supplies from people like Lord Glover and the Umbers, due to their disloyalty against the Starks?
Winters that can last years would be almost apocalyptic.
I remember an episode of the show Sanctuary featuring something to this. In it, a town was caught in a time bubble and due to the time differential, a single night of our time would last several years for them. This caused temperatures to plummet within the bubble (due to the lack of sunlight) and left them unable to grow crops, so even despite their best efforts to stockpile food and wood, many people died during these "Long Nights" due to starvation and hypothermia.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Aug 9, 2019 12:46:52 GMT
That would have been something I'd have addressed in the show, that food production and storage for Winter has been left in disarray throughout Westeros due to the Civil War destroying farmlands or taking farmers away to fight as soldiers. Imagine if limited supplies in the North (maybe Ramsay burned them out of spite) forced Jon or Sansa to leave some of their own people out in the cold when winter arrived? Or if they decided to forcibly take supplies from people like Lord Glover and the Umbers, due to their disloyalty against the Starks? Winters that can last years would be almost apocalyptic. I remember an episode of the show Sanctuary featuring something to this. In it, a town was caught in a time bubble and due to the time differential, a single night of our time would last several years for them. This caused temperatures to plummet within the bubble (due to the lack of sunlight) and left them unable to grow crops, so even despite their best efforts to stockpile food and wood, many people died during these "Long Nights" due to starvation and hypothermia.
Mhm, one of the things that really make the books feel visceral is how everyone is fucking terrified of the winter. Not just because of the cold or the uncertainty or even the tales of the white walkers, but because they all know that once the darkness and chill set in people are going to become desperate and dangerous, and even more likely to want to rob you of everything you have, including your dignity. It'll be brutal, and the only thing you can do is prepare as best you can and hope that the gods have mercy for another year. It really speaks to how much the environment and its changes have meant for homo sapiens through our history. Hell, we lived through a sudden ice age and it turned us from city-builders right back into hunter-gatherers and completely wiped our cultural memory of any time where we weren't shivering and starving, scrambling for cover and calories wherever we could find them. And it's taken us ten thousand years to even start digging up what we were before the trauma of those circumstances. And now we're walking into another chaotic period of erratic weather and temperature changes, with no earthly idea what it's ultimately going to mean for us and no realistic way of avoiding it. In that sense, Martin's portrayal of the creeping cold and the man-like monsters lurking in the darkness waiting, as always, to invade the civilized world once our time is up once again, spurring people to impulsive and monstrous behavior trying to escape the reality of it, is pretty damn striking. Love this little history lesson from Roose Bolton. He has a really cool and cynical interpretation of "the age of heroes" and how the great houses became great. Which is even cooler both because there's probably a lot of truth to it, and because the way he thinks about it still just marks him as an utter psychopath. The Lannisters swindled their enemies. The Storm Kings hammered them. The Starks cut off their heads. In such company as this, were the Boltons really so... indelicate?Mark Strong doesn't get nearly enough opportunities to ham it up like that and voice creepy villains with fucked-up worldviews rather than just straight-laced military bureaucrats.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by SwobyJ on Sept 20, 2019 0:33:11 GMT
I wanted the final seasons to go:
1 - Fire, total dragon invasion focus, toasting up multiple cities and ravaging the countryside 2 - Ice, total ice undead focus, enclosing everyone in tight, anti-social corners lest they be quickly abducted in the open 3 - A dream of spring, as the weather lets up and almost anyone that can organize, does so, first for the final showdown for the future, and then for a barely passing peace, the one shot Westeros has
They can do whatever stories throughout as long as it addresses all long term characters and most shorter term ones.
So of course I was one who was particularly affected by the pacing and design of the last few seasons.
The more I think of ASOIAF and GOT, the more I'm okay with a massive video game (RPG/ish?) simply re-imagining it all and ending up doing a great job at that.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Oct 1, 2019 4:35:12 GMT
I've been rewatching the series on my Blu-Ray disks. Just got done watching the l00t train episode. One of my favorites, watching Dany's forces in battle was glorious. I can't stand those Dothraki savages but they were an effective cavalry unit. Fast and vicious who threw themselves into battle 100%. They even strike fear into seasoned veterans like Jaimie into not wanting to fight them again. One major flaw with this episode is before the battle, Dany is complaining about the Lannisters taking all of the foodstuff that her forces needed, yet she destroys it all in the battle instead of capturing it. If I was Dany, after landing on Dragonstone and resting for a bit, she should have lead a night raid with her three dragons and turned the Red Keep into molten slag with everyone in it. She would have won and we wouldn't have gotten that season BS. But the story would have been cut short.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 9, 2019 17:15:29 GMT
This is fantastic.
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