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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 3:29:33 GMT
I suspected that all along. He was willing to kill his brother rather than try to find a way to come to terms. At the least, they could have joined forces to take down the other kings. Instead, he turns to dark magic. Yes, on know that magic came in handy later but that time it wasn't used to create a shadow demon. Stannis' flaws are that he's more concerned with his right to be king, his ego and his fall into fanaticism. He's listening to someone who's more interested in furthering her religion and knows how to play him and stroke his ego. She's more interested in his potential power position than she is in him. He's basically her devoted tool. In the books, he wasn't concerned about being king as much he was concerned about deplacing abominations of incest from the Iron Throne (and that he was his brother's true heir too). He had all of this great dialogues in the books about being concerned about justice, but sadly the books aren't the tv show unfortunately, seeing as though they cut him out of his own plot line with the Boltons. He also was an atheist too, if it helps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 3:44:31 GMT
Stannis' flaws are that he's more concerned with his right to be king, his ego and his fall into fanaticism. He's listening to someone who's more interested in furthering her religion and knows how to play him and stroke his ego. She's more interested in his potential power position than she is in him. He's basically her devoted tool. In the books, he wasn't concerned about being king as much he was concerned about deplacing abominations of incest from the Iron Throne (and that he was his brother's true heir too). He had all of this great dialogues in the books about being concerned about justice, but sadly the books aren't the tv show unfortunately, seeing as though they cut him out of his own plot line with the Boltons. He also was an atheist too, if it helps. I agree he was the rightful heir after Robert died, Robert left the throne to him and he would've been better suited for it than Renly... (I question whether Renly would've been hard enough to make the tough decisions required by leadership, it's more likely he would've been too easily pushed around) ...Stannis also would've been a better king than Joffrey, a lot wiser, at least at first, but eventually he would've turned into a pawn of the Red Woman, he was already becoming too deeply under her control.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 3:45:22 GMT
Working my way through Season 6. Finding out where "Hodor" came from is mind-blowing. Brandon isn't just seeing the past but affecting it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 4:00:13 GMT
Working my way through Season 6. Finding out where "Hodor" came from is mind-blowing. Brandon isn't just seeing the past but affecting it. ... *gulp* Summer... ... Hodor ... ... Jojen ... man that was a brutal season...
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 4:01:35 GMT
In the books, he wasn't concerned about being king as much he was concerned about deplacing abominations of incest from the Iron Throne (and that he was his brother's true heir too). He had all of this great dialogues in the books about being concerned about justice, but sadly the books aren't the tv show unfortunately, seeing as though they cut him out of his own plot line with the Boltons. He also was an atheist too, if it helps. I agree he was the rightful heir after Robert died, Robert left the throne to him and he would've been better suited for it than Renly... (I question whether Renly would've been hard enough to make the tough decisions required by leadership, it's more likely he would've been too easily pushed around) ...Stannis also would've been a better king than Joffrey, a lot wiser, at least at first, but eventually he would've turned into a pawn of the Red Woman, he was already becoming too deeply under her control. No.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 4:21:52 GMT
I agree he was the rightful heir after Robert died, Robert left the throne to him and he would've been better suited for it than Renly... (I question whether Renly would've been hard enough to make the tough decisions required by leadership, it's more likely he would've been too easily pushed around) ...Stannis also would've been a better king than Joffrey, a lot wiser, at least at first, but eventually he would've turned into a pawn of the Red Woman, he was already becoming too deeply under her control.No. She offered him power and he took it at the cost of his brother's life, that was the first step, then human sacrifices to placate her god... yeah...he was starting down a road that would've made him a ghoulish dictator addicted to power.
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 4:51:03 GMT
She offered him power and he took it at the cost of his brother's life, that was the first step, then human sacrifices to placate her god... yeah...he was starting down a road that would've made him a ghoulish dictator addicted to power. Yeah, but still no. The reason he killed Renly was because Renly was a pretentious pretender whom didn't understand how the lines of succession worked - and if he didn't kill Renly, Renly would've killed him just as easily. It was a win/win for all sides that Renly died when he did.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 5:08:34 GMT
She offered him power and he took it at the cost of his brother's life, that was the first step, then human sacrifices to placate her god... yeah...he was starting down a road that would've made him a ghoulish dictator addicted to power.Yeah, but still no. The reason he killed Renly was because Renly was a pretentious pretender whom didn't understand how the lines of succession worked - and if he didn't kill Renly, Renly would've killed him just as easily. It was a win/win for all sides that Renly died when he did. Still can't justify a man who sacrifices his daughter by fire - a particularly brutal and painful way of existing - from ever taking the throne. He'd be worse than the High Sparrow.
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 5:14:07 GMT
Yeah, but still no. The reason he killed Renly was because Renly was a pretentious pretender whom didn't understand how the lines of succession worked - and if he didn't kill Renly, Renly would've killed him just as easily. It was a win/win for all sides that Renly died when he did. Still can't justify a man who sacrifices his daughter by fire - a particularly brutal and painful way of existing - from ever taking the throne. He'd be worse than the High Sparrow. That's the show runners destroying Stannis's character, like they did with Ser Barristan and the Blackfish, both of whom are still alive in the books and still have roles to play in up coming books.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 5:18:50 GMT
Still can't justify a man who sacrifices his daughter by fire - a particularly brutal and painful way of existing - from ever taking the throne. He'd be worse than the High Sparrow. That's the show runners destroying Stannis's character, like they did with Ser Barristan and the Blackfish, both of whom are still alive in the books and still have roles to play in up coming books. Am I wrong that Catelyn came back in the books? I could swear she did.
Also, 5 posts? Did you delete your account and just now come back?
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 5:19:46 GMT
That's the show runners destroying Stannis's character, like they did with Ser Barristan and the Blackfish, both of whom are still alive in the books and still have roles to play in up coming books. Am I wrong that Catelyn came back in the books? I could swear she did. No, she did. She's Lady Stoneheart, the killer of Lannisters and Freys alike.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 5:23:18 GMT
Am I wrong that Catelyn came back in the books? I could swear she did. No, she did. She's Lady Stoneheart, the killer of Lannisters and Freys alike. A bit disappointed that she's still dead in the show. I haven't read the whole series. There was one novel that was so long and boring that I couldn't continue on. Forget which one but others told me they understood.
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 5:24:51 GMT
No, she did. She's Lady Stoneheart, the killer of Lannisters and Freys alike. A bit disappointed that she's still dead in the show. I haven't read the whole series. There was one novel that was so long and boring that I couldn't continue on. Forget which one but others told me they understood.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2019 5:46:06 GMT
I agree he was the rightful heir after Robert died, Robert left the throne to him and he would've been better suited for it than Renly... (I question whether Renly would've been hard enough to make the tough decisions required by leadership, it's more likely he would've been too easily pushed around) ...Stannis also would've been a better king than Joffrey, a lot wiser, at least at first, but eventually he would've turned into a pawn of the Red Woman, he was already becoming too deeply under her control. The real tragedy of the War of the Five Kings is that they could have easily ended the war far sooner, if only Renly and Robb had declared for Stannis, as their combined forces would have been enough to take down the Lannisters.
The problem was that Renly was arrogant enough to think he could win the throne through sheer popularity, while Robb got talked into being "King of the North" by the Northern Lords, despite seeming to have originally planned to side with Stannis (as Ned had).
Renly working for Stannis as either Hand or as a member of the Small Council could have easily curbed Stannis' worst tendencies as a ruler. I have no doubt that people would have preferred Renly and secretly wished he was King instead, which would likely not help Stannis' jealousy, but at least that arrangement would have left more people alive.
Stannis would have been a terrible King, but his only redeeming feature is that he would have secured the realm at least.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 7:28:46 GMT
She offered him power and he took it at the cost of his brother's life, that was the first step, then human sacrifices to placate her god... yeah...he was starting down a road that would've made him a ghoulish dictator addicted to power.Yeah, but still no. The reason he killed Renly was because Renly was a pretentious pretender whom didn't understand how the lines of succession worked - and if he didn't kill Renly, Renly would've killed him just as easily. It was a win/win for all sides that Renly died when he did. Ok, if he wanted Renly out of the way, why not just hire assassins? Using the magic the Red Woman had to offer and allowing her to sacrifice non-believers to her gods, that right there tells me he's willing to sacrifice anything, anyone for the throne. And it also brings to question what would he be willing to do to keep the throne he feels rightly belongs to him? Eventually, he'd go back to her magic, if he felt his position was threatened and then he'd do it again and again, it would get easier each time he did. Stannis' own need to keep things in proper order would have probably led him into a dependence on the Red Woman, had he gotten the throne.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2019 7:38:40 GMT
Ok, if he wanted Renly out of the way, why not just hire assassins? Hiring assassins would have been costly, carried with it the risk of failure, as well as left a paper trail that Stannis' enemies might discover and exploit. Using Mel's shadow magic cost him nothing (aside from his own lifeforce) to try, she guaranteed him that her magic would not fail to kill Renly and afterwards, it would have been hard to pin the murder on Stannis because there was neither an assassin or any physical evidence left behind to point to him.
(Also Mel's way gave him have an excuse to sleep with her, so that may have swayed his mind somewhat)
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 7:38:50 GMT
Yeah, so, finished Season 6. Upset over one thing that happened but man do I ever love Sansa. She's come so far since the spoiled brat she used to be.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 7:40:29 GMT
I agree he was the rightful heir after Robert died, Robert left the throne to him and he would've been better suited for it than Renly... (I question whether Renly would've been hard enough to make the tough decisions required by leadership, it's more likely he would've been too easily pushed around) ...Stannis also would've been a better king than Joffrey, a lot wiser, at least at first, but eventually he would've turned into a pawn of the Red Woman, he was already becoming too deeply under her control. The real tragedy of the War of the Five Kings is that they could have easily ended the war far sooner, if only Renly and Robb had declared for Stannis, as their combined forces would have been enough to take down the Lannisters.
The problem was that Renly was arrogant enough to think he could win the throne through sheer popularity, while Robb got talked into being "King of the North" by the Northern Lords, despite seeming to have originally planned to side with Stannis (as Ned had).
Renly working for Stannis as either Hand or as a member of the Small Council could have easily curbed Stannis' worst tendencies as a ruler. I have no doubt that people would have preferred Renly and secretly wished he was King instead, which would likely not help Stannis' jealousy, but at least that arrangement would have left more people alive.
Stannis would have been a terrible King, but his only redeeming feature is that he would have secured the realm at least.
You're right there. That Renly and Rob chose to break with Stannis is their biggest mistake. Catlyn should've kept Rob in line to Ned's wishes. I highly doubt Ned would've wanted any of his sons to hold the crown in the South. He was dedicated to keeping the Starks in Winterfell. Catlyn helped screw that up. And Renly got too drunk on his own popularity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 7:45:08 GMT
Ok, if he wanted Renly out of the way, why not just hire assassins? Hiring assassins would have been costly, carried with it the risk of failure, as well as left a paper trail that Stannis' enemies might discover and exploit. Using Mel's shadow magic cost him nothing (aside from his own lifeforce) to try, she guaranteed him that her magic would not fail to kill Renly and afterwards, it would have been hard to pin the murder on Stannis because there was neither an assassin or any physical evidence left behind to point to him.
(Also Mel's way gave him have an excuse to sleep with her, so that may have swayed his mind somewhat) So it was just easier to do it that way. And had he managed to claim the throne, he would've gone back to her whenever he had a problem. If each time he went to her, he lost a piece of himself to the magic, he would've eventually been seduced by it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 7:53:40 GMT
Yeah, so, finished Season 6. Upset over one thing that happened but man do I ever love Sansa. She's come so far since the spoiled brat she used to be. Sophie Turner gives the Sansa character a fiery spark, she improved the character in the show, I must admit. That slight lunge at Joffery in season one, when he took her to see Ned's head on the pike, it was great. And the way she spits out her lines at times, she gives the character a nice defiant edge when Sansa has to remain compliant to what's going on.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2019 8:02:20 GMT
You're right there. That Renly and Rob chose to break with Stannis is their biggest mistake. Catlyn should've kept Rob in line to Ned's wishes. I highly doubt Ned would've wanted any of his sons to hold the crown in the South. He was dedicated to keeping the Starks in Winterfell. Catlyn helped screw that up. And Renly got too drunk on his own popularity. Well, Robb (at least in the show, I'm not sure about the books as I've not gotten that far yet) didn't want the Iron Throne, he only wanted the North to return to being independent as it had been before the Targaryens. We don't know how Robb felt about Stannis, but it was clear that Stannis viewed Robb as a traitor and enemy for trying to steal one of "his" Kingdoms away from him.
If Robb had declared for Stannis, joined forces and stuck to being only Warden of the North, it probably would have turned out far better for everyone involved. With the Northmen on his side, Stannis might not have even needed to murder Renly to acquire his army, as he'd already have had enough men to take on King's Landing.
(Of course, he would have lost his army the same way at Blackwater, but that's neither here nor there)
Then again, if Renly and Robb had chosen to join forces with Stannis, then even despite their losses on the Blackwater, they'd have had enough men left that Tywin wouldn't have been able to rout them, as he wouldn't have the Tyrell army with him (because they'd be fighting for Renly alongside Stannis).
It does make me wonder how the Ironborn rebellion and Red Wedding might have played out if Robb was aligned with Stannis, as well as how this alliance would have fared once Renly and Robb became aware of Melisandre's undue influence on Stannis? Cause I don't think Robb, who's grandfather was burned alive by the Mad King, would react well to Stannis burning people on pyres.
It'd be great if GRRM ever chose to write a "What If?" breakdown synopsis of what could have happened during the War of Five Kings. Could easily posit it as a Maester's thought experiment on what this alternate history might have looked like?
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 8:15:15 GMT
Yeah, but still no. The reason he killed Renly was because Renly was a pretentious pretender whom didn't understand how the lines of succession worked - and if he didn't kill Renly, Renly would've killed him just as easily. It was a win/win for all sides that Renly died when he did. Ok, if he wanted Renly out of the way, why not just hire assassins? Using the magic the Red Woman had to offer and allowing her to sacrifice non-believers to her gods, that right there tells me he's willing to sacrifice anything, anyone for the throne. And it also brings to question what would he be willing to do to keep the throne he feels rightly belongs to him? Eventually, he'd go back to her magic, if he felt his position was threatened and then he'd do it again and again, it would get easier each time he did. Stannis' own need to keep things in proper order would have probably led him into a dependence on the Red Woman, had he gotten the throne. Because Braavosi assassins are really fucking expensive and he only had a day before Renly attacked his encampment and murdered him? Why are you making Renly seem like the good guy here when he's not better than Stannis. He would've done the exact same thing as Stannis - he would've kinslayed him and called it just even. Not everything about Stannis is depraved from Melisendre as you seem to think (and wrongly so).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 8:16:56 GMT
You're right there. That Renly and Rob chose to break with Stannis is their biggest mistake. Catlyn should've kept Rob in line to Ned's wishes. I highly doubt Ned would've wanted any of his sons to hold the crown in the South. He was dedicated to keeping the Starks in Winterfell. Catlyn helped screw that up. And Renly got too drunk on his own popularity. Well, Robb (at least in the show, I'm not sure about the books as I've not gotten that far yet) didn't want the Iron Throne, he only wanted the North to return to being independent as it had been before the Targaryens. We don't know how Robb felt about Stannis, but it was clear that Stannis viewed Robb as a traitor and enemy for trying to steal one of "his" Kingdoms away from him.
If Robb had declared for Stannis, joined forces and stuck to being only Warden of the North, it probably would have turned out far better for everyone involved. With the Northmen on his side, Stannis might not have even needed to murder Renly to acquire his army, as he'd already have had enough men to take on King's Landing.
(Of course, he would have lost his army the same way at Blackwater, but that's neither here nor there)
Then again, if Renly and Robb had chosen to join forces with Stannis, then even despite their losses on the Blackwater, they'd have had enough men left that Tywin wouldn't have been able to rout them, as he wouldn't have the Tyrell army with him (because they'd be fighting for Renly alongside Stannis).
It does make me wonder how the Ironborn rebellion and Red Wedding might have played out if Robb was aligned with Stannis, as well as how this alliance would have fared once Renly and Robb became aware of Melisandre's undue influence on Stannis? Cause I don't think Robb, who's grandfather was burned alive by the Mad King, would react well to Stannis burning people on pyres.
It'd be great if GRRM ever chose to write a "What If?" breakdown synopsis of what could have happened during the War of Five Kings. Could easily posit it as a Maester's thought experiment on what this alternate history might have looked like?
Had Robb and Renly stuck with Stannis, the Red woman would've been gone, Stannis wouldn't have needed her around. The minute he turned to her and allowed her to use him to cast that first spell, that would've been his undoing. That was also Renly's own fault, he should've stuck with his brother. That he didn't and he decided to follow his own ambitions instead, is an indication he wouldn't have been suited for the throne. He should've put the welfare of the people first, realized that the first priority should be to uproot the Lannisters from the throne, but instead he decided to turn things into a popularity contest with his brother.
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GoldenGail3
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 8:19:16 GMT
Had Robb and Renly stuck with Stannis, the Red woman would've been gone, Stannis wouldn't have needed her around. That is indeed true, I'll give you that one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 8:51:14 GMT
Ok, if he wanted Renly out of the way, why not just hire assassins? Using the magic the Red Woman had to offer and allowing her to sacrifice non-believers to her gods, that right there tells me he's willing to sacrifice anything, anyone for the throne. And it also brings to question what would he be willing to do to keep the throne he feels rightly belongs to him? Eventually, he'd go back to her magic, if he felt his position was threatened and then he'd do it again and again, it would get easier each time he did. Stannis' own need to keep things in proper order would have probably led him into a dependence on the Red Woman, had he gotten the throne. Because Braavosi assassins are really fucking expensive and he only had a day before Renly attacked his encampment and murdered him? Why are you making Renly seem like the good guy here when he's not better than Stannis. He would've done the exact same thing as Stannis - he would've kinslayed him and called it just even. Not everything about Stannis is depraved from Melisendre as you seem to think (and wrongly so). I don't think Renly was the good guy, I actually think he brought trouble onto himself, he never should have tried to defy Stannis if he was thinking about what was best for the kingdom. Rob never should've tried becoming king of the North before the Lannisters were out of King's Landing, he should've followed the example of his father and sided with Stannis, to get rid of the Lannister forces and then I'll bet he would've been able to receive more control of the North after Stannis was seated on the throne. And Stannis should've found a better way to deal with Renly, even if it meant he had to concede the throne briefly. The big concern was to get the Lannisters out and have Robert's chosen heir on the throne. Something Stannis and Renly could've worked out later.
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