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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 15:40:29 GMT
Well, Robb (at least in the show, I'm not sure about the books as I've not gotten that far yet) didn't want the Iron Throne, he only wanted the North to return to being independent as it had been before the Targaryens. We don't know how Robb felt about Stannis, but it was clear that Stannis viewed Robb as a traitor and enemy for trying to steal one of "his" Kingdoms away from him. Robb was stupid. He threw away a much-needed alliance for love. I think it's pretty clear that betraying your allies is going to turn them against you. Even Catelyn knew as much and tried to council him to have the alliance wedding. And he paid for it.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 17, 2019 15:55:16 GMT
As I might have mentioned, I'm only just catching up on GoT. Just watched S5E9. Man, I hope Stannis Baratheon burns. I never got all the hype for Stannis.
He may be a great military commander, but it's pretty obvious he makes for a terrible leader.
Me neither. He is a heavy-handed overly rigid robot with little political finesse, extremely limited resourcefulness who cannot be reasoned with in any way. Also his charisma and passion score is -1. Even if he had somehow made it onto the iron throne political schemes and backstabbing would have killed him in a year or less. But thats the Stannis of the show of course, I heard the Stannis in the book is far superior to the TV version.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 17, 2019 17:31:56 GMT
I never got all the hype for Stannis.
He may be a great military commander, but it's pretty obvious he makes for a terrible leader.
Me neither. He is a heavy-handed overly rigid robot with little political finesse, extremely limited resourcefulness who cannot be reasoned with in any way. Also his charisma and passion score is -1. Even if he had somehow made it onto the iron throne political schemes and backstabbing would have killed him in a year or less. But thats the Stannis of the show of course, I heard the Stannis in the book is far superior to the TV version. He’s a bit more principled than his show version in the books (he would never have considered burning his daughter for example and in fact leaves her at Castle Black when he marches toward Winterfell)
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 20:48:54 GMT
As I've been watching, I know the Night's Watch believed it's cause was to defend against the Wildlings. How did they lose sight of their real goal, which was to watch against the White Walkers? So misguided and I wonder how many conflicts could have been avoided had they remembered the purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 21:50:17 GMT
As I've been watching, I know the Night's Watch believed it's cause was to defend against the Wildlings. How did they lose sight of their real goal, which was to watch against the White Walkers? So misguided and I wonder how many conflicts could have been avoided had they remembered the purpose. It had been so long since the last Long Winter that the White Walkers became a legend and were believed to be a myth or had been disposed of long ago. The Wildings were a fairly recent development and a common threat always making their presence know. Since the Wildings were always around, and a constant nuisance, the Knight's Watch began seeing them as the real threat and didn't even consider the possibility of the White Walkers returning.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 17, 2019 23:17:27 GMT
As I've been watching, I know the Night's Watch believed it's cause was to defend against the Wildlings. How did they lose sight of their real goal, which was to watch against the White Walkers? So misguided and I wonder how many conflicts could have been avoided had they remembered the purpose. It had been so long since the last Long Winter that the White Walkers became a legend and were believed to be a myth or had been disposed of long ago. The Wildings were a fairly recent development and a common threat always making their presence know. Since the Wildings were always around, and a constant nuisance, the Knight's Watch began seeing them as the real threat and didn't even consider the possibility of the White Walkers returning. Yeah, but they murdered Jon over his alliance with the Wildlings. By that point, the threat of the White Walkers was known. The only one I felt bad for was Olly and I understood why he felt betrayed. I mean, if a Wildling said he was going to eat my parents I would feel a special kind of rage against them. The ones who conspired against Jon were cowards.
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Post by GoldenGail3 on Jan 17, 2019 23:33:52 GMT
I never got all the hype for Stannis.
He may be a great military commander, but it's pretty obvious he makes for a terrible leader.
Me neither. He is a heavy-handed overly rigid robot with little political finesse, extremely limited resourcefulness who cannot be reasoned with in any way. Also his charisma and passion score is -1. Even if he had somehow made it onto the iron throne political schemes and backstabbing would have killed him in a year or less. But thats the Stannis of the show of course, I heard the Stannis in the book is far superior to the TV version. The book Stannis is what the word awesome means.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 23:39:00 GMT
It had been so long since the last Long Winter that the White Walkers became a legend and were believed to be a myth or had been disposed of long ago. The Wildings were a fairly recent development and a common threat always making their presence know. Since the Wildings were always around, and a constant nuisance, the Knight's Watch began seeing them as the real threat and didn't even consider the possibility of the White Walkers returning. Yeah, but they murdered Jon over his alliance with the Wildlings. By that point, the threat of the White Walkers was known. The only one I felt bad for was Olly and I understood why he felt betrayed. I mean, if a Wildling said he was going to eat my parents I would feel a special kind of rage against them. The ones who conspired against Jon were cowards. Yeah, I know what you mean, the kid had a valid reason for hating the Wildings and turning on Jon. The others were following the example of a guy who just wanted power and who resented Jon for having it. Jon's reasoning was sound, he saw what the Knight's Watch was up against, those that turned on him weren't aware of the magnitude of the danger approaching, they just saw their leader welcome their enemies into the castle. Had they seen what was coming, many of them would've been more inclined NOT to turn on Jon. Seriously, leaving the Wildings North of the wall to get slaughtered would've only given the Night King more soldiers to throw at The Wall.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2019 5:54:34 GMT
Robb was stupid. He threw away a much-needed alliance for love. I think it's pretty clear that betraying your allies is going to turn them against you. Even Catelyn knew as much and tried to council him to have the alliance wedding. And he paid for it. From what I understand, in the books, Jeyne Westerling (Robb's book wife) took advantage of Robb's grief over the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon in order to seduce him, so his subsequent decision to marry her was borne less out of love than trying to restore her honour (a very Ned move). Jeyne's family were loyal bannermen to the Lannisters and she definitely may have been trying to manipulate him at first, but later appears to have genuinely fallen in love with him. Perhaps more sensibly than Talisa in the show, Jeyne did not attend the Red Wedding to avoid further insulting the Freys, so she ended up surviving the massacre. As I've been watching, I know the Night's Watch believed it's cause was to defend against the Wildlings. How did they lose sight of their real goal, which was to watch against the White Walkers? So misguided and I wonder how many conflicts could have been avoided had they remembered the purpose. It had been so long since the last Long Winter that the White Walkers became a legend and were believed to be a myth or had been disposed of long ago. Yeah, Bioware pretty much took inspiration from this in Dragon Age when it came to people in Thedas convincing themselves that the Darkspawn were eradicated during the Fourth Blight. Much like the White Walkers, the last sightings were so long ago that they'd faded from memory and into myth... and it was far more comforting for people to believe that the nightmare was gone forever, than face the truth that it was merely biding it's time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 7:19:43 GMT
It had been so long since the last Long Winter that the White Walkers became a legend and were believed to be a myth or had been disposed of long ago. Yeah, Bioware pretty much took inspiration from this in Dragon Age when it came to people in Thedas convincing themselves that the Darkspawn were eradicated during the Fourth Blight. Much like the White Walkers, the last sightings were so long ago that they'd faded from memory and into myth... and it was far more comforting for people to believe that the nightmare was gone forever, than face the truth that it was merely biding it's time. Yup, that seems to be a theme in many stories. If you're a fan of the Dragonriders of Pern series, the first book has F'lar (a dragonrider) trying to prepare his Weyr for a coming threadfall, but only he and a handful of others, believe that there is danger because thread hasn't fallen on PERN for 400 years. The first story was written back in the 1960's, so that type of scenario has been around for quite awhile, and I doubt Anne McCaffery was the first to write about this kind of thing happening either.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 8:54:27 GMT
Yeah, Bioware pretty much took inspiration from this in Dragon Age when it came to people in Thedas convincing themselves that the Darkspawn were eradicated during the Fourth Blight. Much like the White Walkers, the last sightings were so long ago that they'd faded from memory and into myth... and it was far more comforting for people to believe that the nightmare was gone forever, than face the truth that it was merely biding it's time. I suppose 8000 years does make it hard to remember. We can barely get an accurate description of things that went on a few hundred years ago. I wonder, though, how the Wildlings ended up on the North side of the Wall.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 9:01:54 GMT
Forgot. Couldn't hold out and stayed up way to late to finish S7. I see Jon and Daenerys are keeping with the Targaryen and Lanister tradition. It's gonna suck for them next season.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2019 9:19:49 GMT
I suppose 8000 years does make it hard to remember. We can barely get an accurate description of things that went on a few hundred years ago. My personal theory (which may be invalidated by the new spin-off show about the Long Night) is that the stories of the Long Night, Last Hero and the Prince Who Was Promised aren't meant to refer to figures and events from Westeros' past, but things that have yet to happen in the future.
We know that past and future tend to blend together when it comes to Greenseer visions, so perhaps when the tales were passed down over the centuries, they were mistaken as things that have already occurred, rather than prophecies and warnings about things that will occur.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 9:55:37 GMT
Yeah, Bioware pretty much took inspiration from this in Dragon Age when it came to people in Thedas convincing themselves that the Darkspawn were eradicated during the Fourth Blight. Much like the White Walkers, the last sightings were so long ago that they'd faded from memory and into myth... and it was far more comforting for people to believe that the nightmare was gone forever, than face the truth that it was merely biding it's time. I suppose 8000 years does make it hard to remember. We can barely get an accurate description of things that went on a few hundred years ago. I wonder, though, how the Wildlings ended up on the North side of the Wall. They're descendants of the people who were living North of The Wall before the wall was built and they got stuck there.
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Post by anarchy65 on Jan 18, 2019 13:43:09 GMT
About Robb, for those who paid attention, in the books, his betrayal was already being planned even before they knew about his wedding, so it had much less to do with the fact he had married someone else and more with the fact that he was losing the war.
I really think people are quite unfair with Robb or Ned. They are much smarter than people like Daenerys (most overrated character ever) or Sansa (who people think she became smarter after Littlefinger - NOT). With 14 years old, Robb showed he could command men, he forced Greatjon Umber into submission, he captured Jaime Lannister by having only 1/3 of his forces, and he made Tywin Lannister look like a fool. Which character did all that when he was only 14?
Ned is also a very skilled diplomat and general. He won every battle he participated and was a great and devoted father, who raised very well his children.
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Post by wickedcool on Jan 18, 2019 16:18:50 GMT
Disagree
Ned was a fool. He had no idea how to play the game. His children survived in spite of him. Didn’t listen to his wife. Placed way 2 much trust in Theon
Robb-basically got himself killed by breaking a promise. Lost Jaime due to poor decisions. Lost many allies
Both were good in combat. Robb’s victory was mainly due to a good strategy in a woods
His 2 daughters learned to play the game and survived His adopted son died once not playing the game correctly. Overrated as a strategist and in single combat. Would have died in the knife battle (when his brother was captured)
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 19:37:17 GMT
I suppose 8000 years does make it hard to remember. We can barely get an accurate description of things that went on a few hundred years ago. I wonder, though, how the Wildlings ended up on the North side of the Wall. They're descendants of the people who were living North of The Wall before the wall was built and they got stuck there. I guess that makes some sort of sense. All of the Northerners are descended from the First Men (which might explain the dire wolves, the visions and the general specialness of the Starks). A lot seems hinged on them, as well as the Tergaryens, though I'm curious how they specifically play into this from a historical standpoint. Also descended from First Men or something else. As for the spin-off, I'm not sure how interested. GoT is a story and S8 is bringing that story to a close. In my experience, adding for the sake of cashing in on something popular (looking at you Disney/SW) doesn't lend itself to great stories.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 19:45:17 GMT
About Robb, for those who paid attention, in the books, his betrayal was already being planned even before they knew about his wedding, so it had much less to do with the fact he had married someone else and more with the fact that he was losing the war. I really think people are quite unfair with Robb or Ned. They are much smarter than people like Daenerys (most overrated character ever) or Sansa (who people think she became smarter after Littlefinger - NOT). With 14 years old, Robb showed he could command men, he forced Greatjon Umber into submission, he captured Jaime Lannister by having only 1/3 of his forces, and he made Tywin Lannister look like a fool. Which character did all that when he was only 14? Ned is also a very skilled diplomat and general. He won every battle he participated and was a great and devoted father, who raised very well his children. Oh, I didn't dislike either and I felt that Ned was one of the most honorable people out there, even when it cost him dearly. It was a trait passed on to Jon, even knowing what we know about him. Arya and Brandon next, given their drive to do whatever was necessary to accomplish their goals. Robb lacked some honor with his marriage. Whether or not the plot was already in motion or not, he still acted dishonorably by going against his word. Sansa next, betraying her family, even if for what she believed was a good cause (glad she and Arya sorted it out). Don't get me wrong. I know Sansa was afraid for her family, and thought she could help them, but given the monster Joffrey had already proven to be it was a stupid move. Imagine if Robb had surrendered? His death would have just happened sooner. As for poor Rickon I guess we'll never know.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 18, 2019 20:03:29 GMT
Ned knew the risks he was taking but had to maintain his honor. He wasn't about playing games. He was never going to be that person. He even took Jon in as his own, knowing the friction it would create with Catelyn, because he knew it was the only way to protect him.
As for Theon, I disagree. He acted entirely out of fear. Robb called him brother but he always felt like an outsider, both at Winterfell and the Iron Islands. He desperately wanted to find his place and made extremely stupid decisions, choices for which he gravely suffered. Tbh, I'm not sure I'd have it in me to continue on after what was done to him. Theon finally overcame the fear, which was partly because of his guilt, by risking everything for Sansa. Even Jon said helping Sansa was the only reason he didn't kill him.
Arya didn't know how to play The Game but she knew how to play people. Even trying to become a Faceless Man was for a purpose. She outplayed them and took everything she learned to achieve her goals. Frey's fate was one of the most satisfyingly parts of her story arc. She obliterated an entire family line, as did Sansa, as did Cersei (two lines for her, I think). I love Arya being Sansa's executioner. Assassin seems to be the role for which she was born, not politics.
Anyway, my point is that they were all flawed and all did the best the cm could. Sansa wanted to play The Game but she was really bad at it. None of the rest did so and none of them wanted to. Northerners seem to approach politics as a necessary evil, NOT as a game. This explains the Stark Family perfectly. Actually, also describes Daenerys, though not the rest of her family. All of them would rather ride into battle than sit in a throne room.
I would take the honorable person I could trust over the lying, deceitful people who are trying to stay me in the back. Once you start down the road to secrets and lies you end up the kind of person you can't trust. Is that the kind of people we want running the world?
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Post by anarchy65 on Jan 18, 2019 20:18:47 GMT
Disagree Ned was a fool. He had no idea how to play the game. His children survived in spite of him. Didn’t listen to his wife. Placed way 2 much trust in Theon Robb-basically got himself killed by breaking a promise. Lost Jaime due to poor decisions. Lost many allies Both were good in combat. Robb’s victory was mainly due to a good strategy in a woods His 2 daughters learned to play the game and survived His adopted son died once not playing the game correctly. Overrated as a strategist and in single combat. Would have died in the knife battle (when his brother was captured) It's not a matter if Ned knew or not how to play the game: He DIDN'T WANT to play the game, that is the point. And he actually listened to his wife when she said he could trust Littlefinger. His wife was a stupid idiot that not only gave him bad advice but also started the war by capturing Tyrion As I said, the betrayal against Robb was already happening before he broke his promise. Which, obviously, doesn't make his decision smart or right, but the betrayal was going to happen anyway. He lost Jaime, again, because the stupidity of his mother. Catelyn is really one of the most stupid characters here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 22:32:45 GMT
About Robb, for those who paid attention, in the books, his betrayal was already being planned even before they knew about his wedding, so it had much less to do with the fact he had married someone else and more with the fact that he was losing the war. I really think people are quite unfair with Robb or Ned. They are much smarter than people like Daenerys (most overrated character ever) or Sansa (who people think she became smarter after Littlefinger - NOT). With 14 years old, Robb showed he could command men, he forced Greatjon Umber into submission, he captured Jaime Lannister by having only 1/3 of his forces, and he made Tywin Lannister look like a fool. Which character did all that when he was only 14? Ned is also a very skilled diplomat and general. He won every battle he participated and was a great and devoted father, who raised very well his children. I liked Ned, he was a very honorable character. I felt bad for him, being dragged into that situation, his loyalty and sense of duty was his downfall, sadly, but his loyalty and sense of duty was why Robert chose him to be Hand. His biggest mistake was not getting out of King's Landing after Robert died, he stuck around to carry out Roberts wishes. But I guess if he had left, the Lannisters would've started rumors that Ned had something to do with Robert's death and say he ran before he could be tried for treason. Basically, Ned was doomed the minute Robert showed up in Winterfell to bring him to King's Landing because plans were already being made to kill Robert.
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Post by anarchy65 on Jan 18, 2019 23:11:38 GMT
And I am glad Robb didn't support Stannis. Stannis would have been one of the worst kings Westeros has ever seen.
Stannis has 0 diplomacy, he is manipulated and controlled by Melisandre, he disrespects the religion of the country he wants to rule and puts a new religion in place, he doesn't know how to negotiate (nor cares about it), he has a disgusting sense of justice, he has no charisma, nobody likes him, he's a total tyrant prick.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 23:29:51 GMT
And I am glad Robb didn't support Stannis. Stannis would have been one of the worst kings Westeros has ever seen. Stannis has 0 diplomacy, he is manipulated and controlled by Melisandre, he disrespects the religion of the country he wants to rule and puts a new religion in place, he doesn't know how to negotiate (nor cares about it), he has a disgusting sense of justice, he has no charisma, nobody likes him, he's a total tyrant prick. You can't say nobody liked him, he had his loyal troops and followers, but he was too rigid. Mind you, that was something that could've been worked out with the right placement of people working under him. I do question his choices though, taking up with Mel was his biggest mistake.
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Post by anarchy65 on Jan 18, 2019 23:39:41 GMT
And I am glad Robb didn't support Stannis. Stannis would have been one of the worst kings Westeros has ever seen. Stannis has 0 diplomacy, he is manipulated and controlled by Melisandre, he disrespects the religion of the country he wants to rule and puts a new religion in place, he doesn't know how to negotiate (nor cares about it), he has a disgusting sense of justice, he has no charisma, nobody likes him, he's a total tyrant prick. You can't say nobody liked him, he had his loyal troops and followers, but he was too rigid. Mind you, that was something that could've been worked out with the right placement of people working under him. I do question his choices though, taking up with Mel was his biggest mistake. He had very few loyal troops and followers. Many were actually bootlickers. Most of House Baratheon's vassals actually prefered to side with his brother. I think the only one that followed Stannis for loyalty was Davos, and many times he disobeyed Stannis' commands because he knew they were wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 23:52:30 GMT
You can't say nobody liked him, he had his loyal troops and followers, but he was too rigid. Mind you, that was something that could've been worked out with the right placement of people working under him. I do question his choices though, taking up with Mel was his biggest mistake. He had very few loyal troops and followers. Many were actually bootlickers. Most of House Baratheon's vassals actually prefered to side with his brother. I think the only one that followed Stannis for loyalty was Davos, and many times he disobeyed Stannis' commands because he knew they were wrong. Ok...here's the thing. If Renly, Robb and Stannis had taken their eyes off the Iron Throne and worked together, they would've been able to defeat the Lannisters...getting the Lannisters out should've been their top priority, instead of worrying about who was going to be King next, because there was a good chance not all the men would've made it out of such a battle anyways and the rival or rivals they were worried about BEFORE the battle, could be out of their hair after it. All 3 men were to stuck on their own glory, that they ignored who the real enemy was. None of them were worthy of the title because none of them had the foresight to look beyond their own ambitions and do what needed to be done.
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