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Post by Croatsky on Jul 6, 2017 9:04:26 GMT
They downsized the studio to work on other projects, right? It makes sense that all they'll release are patches and small DLC. Downsizing studio is a normal practice, as there's no need for fully staffed studio for patching, DLC development and MP support. And interestingly enough, Lead Level Designers for Singleplayer content from BW Montreal are still working and will be two of four devs attending Montreal Comic Con panel. Level Designers don't work on patches, unless they are overhauling level design which no patch had done so far. And they also didn't work on Multiplayer level design either. So, I do think they are developing Singleplayer content, otherwise EA is just throwing money away by keeping full paid level designers doing nothing for past 4 months. Also to add even more interesting, BW Edmonton Level Designer for Singleplay had only now been moved from ME:A team to Anthem team. Why was he still there for so long, if there's no SP Story DLC being developed? |
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Post by Croatsky on Jul 6, 2017 9:05:17 GMT
Recent patch took 2/3 months, so add on 2/3 months after July/August. That's my estimation. That's way too big of a delay. Patches don't need same amount of work as DLC development. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 10:16:36 GMT
They downsized the studio to work on other projects, right? It makes sense that all they'll release are patches and small DLC. Downsizing studio is a normal practice, as there's no need for fully staffed studio for patching, DLC development and MP support. And interestingly enough, Lead Level Designers for Singleplayer content from BW Montreal are still working and will be two of four devs attending Montreal Comic Con panel. Level Designers don't work on patches, unless they are overhauling level design which no patch had done so far. And they also didn't work on Multiplayer level design either. So, I do think they are developing Singleplayer content, otherwise EA is just throwing money away by keeping full paid level designers doing nothing for past 4 months. Also to add even more interesting, BW Edmonton Level Designer for Singleplay had only now been moved from ME:A team to Anthem team. Why was he still there for so long, if there's no SP Story DLC being developed? I thought that studios generally leave a good bit of folks to develop DLC if the DLC is major. I know not everyone stays, but the news about them downsizing gave me the impression that they only had a skeleton crew left for patching the game and micro DLC. |
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 6, 2017 11:18:43 GMT
I thought that studios generally leave a good bit of folks to develop DLC if the DLC is major. I know not everyone stays, but the news about them downsizing gave me the impression that they only had a skeleton crew left for patching the game and micro DLC. This is where the facts (at least as we know them) deviate from the journalism. The facts are that devs from montreal were diverted to work on BF2 (Motive or whatever it's called), so in theory there are less people to work on DLC. The whole thing about studios being 'downsized' is the spin that has been applied to it by the journos. To the best of our knowledge, no-one has been fired/let go (indeed, this was the reasoning behind the Kotaku article's revision). Precisely how many are left is up in the air, and whether that number would equate to enough to make DLC is equally nebulous, hence why the Kotaku article might end up being correct. The TL;DR version is that we don't know. There isn't a hard and fast number of devs you need to make a given DLC. |
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 6, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
Yep, Extended Cut caused near 2 months delay. I wonder how long the patching process is going to delay the DLC. If there are DLC plans in the pipe, I would expect about a two month delay. My theory being that they have to go through the same animation fixes as they did with the main game, while having a much smaller team. If the smaller size of the DLC and smaller size of the team are a wash, it would add about two months to DLC development, give or take. |
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Post by Croatsky on Jul 6, 2017 12:08:36 GMT
I wonder how long the patching process is going to delay the DLC. If there are DLC plans in the pipe, I would expect about a two month delay. My theory being that they have to go through the same animation fixes as they did with the main game, while having a much smaller team. If the smaller size of the DLC and smaller size of the team are a wash, it would add about two months to DLC development, give or take. Unless DLC will be really big or there will be even more big patches to be released before first DLC, I don't think SP Story DLC will be delayed for that long. DA:I had big patches too, also more then usual then any other BioWare title before, before releasing Jaws of Hakkon DLC. Which was released on PC and XBOX One at average time frame. Although PS3, PS4 and X360 versions of that DLC were delayed for an additional month. |
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 6, 2017 12:12:17 GMT
If there are DLC plans in the pipe, I would expect about a two month delay. My theory being that they have to go through the same animation fixes as they did with the main game, while having a much smaller team. If the smaller size of the DLC and smaller size of the team are a wash, it would add about two months to DLC development, give or take. Unless DLC will be really big or there will be even more big patches to be released before first DLC, I don't think SP Story DLC will be delayed for that long. DA:I had big patches too, also more then usual then any other BioWare title before, before releasing Jaws of Hakkon DLC. Which was released on PC and XBOX One at average time frame. Although PS3, PS4 and X360 versions of that DLC were delayed for an additional month. DA:I didn't have the fundamental animation issue that ME:A does. Any DLC has to go through the manual animation fixes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 14:50:36 GMT
I'm just gonna leave these two charts here:   As much as I want DLC for ME:A, I can't remain optimistic. The only evidence we have points to no SP DLC coming.  To quote the great Garrus Vakarian: "Expect the worst hope to be surprised." |
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Post by kino on Jul 6, 2017 14:51:33 GMT
Recent patch took 2/3 months, so add on 2/3 months after July/August. That's my estimation. That's way too big of a delay. Patches don't need same amount of work as DLC development. Patch 1.08 wasn't just a patch though, in the usual sense of the word. New dialog, cut scenes, animations, weapons, as well as the usual break fixes and balance changes. It was pretty damn big and, I suspect, somewhat resource intensive. It probably will have some impact on the release schedule, it's just difficult to speculate what that impact will be. |
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Post by Croatsky on Jul 6, 2017 15:20:59 GMT
That's way too big of a delay. Patches don't need same amount of work as DLC development. Patch 1.08 wasn't just a patch though, in the usual sense of the word. New dialog, cut scenes, animations, weapons, as well as the usual break fixes and balance changes. It was pretty damn big and, I suspect, somewhat resource intensive. It probably will have some impact on the release schedule, it's just difficult to speculate what that impact will be. Sure, it was a big patch. But to cause couple of months delay big? A month delay maybe, two is too much unless follow up patches will continue to be as big. Although I guess we will learn in a few hours how big will be 1.09 patch. |
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Post by kino on Jul 6, 2017 15:24:07 GMT
Patch 1.08 wasn't just a patch though, in the usual sense of the word. New dialog, cut scenes, animations, weapons, as well as the usual break fixes and balance changes. It was pretty damn big and, I suspect, somewhat resource intensive. It probably will have some impact on the release schedule, it's just difficult to speculate what that impact will be. Sure, it was a big patch. But to cause couple of months delay big? A month delay maybe, two is too much unless follow up patches will continue to be as big. Although I guess we will learn in a few hours how big will be 1.09 patch. Well, according to Origin patch 1.09 is 1.77gb. It's not exactly small. Makes me glad the days of 56k modems is gone. |
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Post by Croatsky on Jul 6, 2017 15:26:23 GMT
Sure, it was a big patch. But to cause couple of months delay big? A month delay maybe, two is too much unless follow up patches will continue to be as big. Although I guess we will learn in a few hours how big will be 1.09 patch. Well, according to Origin patch 1.09 is 1.77gb. It's not exactly small. Makes me glad the days of 56k modems is gone. Oh shit, patch is already out?! Thanks, I though it would be up for download later. |
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Post by kino on Jul 6, 2017 15:31:17 GMT
Well, according to Origin patch 1.09 is 1.77gb. It's not exactly small. Makes me glad the days of 56k modems is gone. Oh shit, patch is already out?! Thanks, I though it would be up for download later. I heard that, but that's typical BioWare as we've been saying all along. Announce the thing the day before then, boom, drop it the day after. Honestly, people who are freaking out at the lack of DLC announcements are forgetting that they're dealing with BioWare. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 3:44:11 GMT
Not trying to derail the thread,but... If Leviathan had been released as a chapter in the main game as regular content there probably would of not needed the Extended cut nor suffer the back lash of the ending since Leviathan pretty much explains it all. Bioware did themselves no favors and doubled down on stupidity by releasing a dlc that helped fortify and explain their ending belief after the fact while having a reputation for being a great story teller. Is it possible that Leviathan was cut content? I'm pretty sure Javik was, but not sure about Leviathan. If the Quarian Ark is cut content, then they probably have most of the assets and voicework ready. From what I remembered, a streamcast with Muzyka and Zeschuck originally had Leviathan as part of the main package somewhere along the lines of "we're visiting the Reaper homeworld." |
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 8, 2017 6:15:32 GMT
Is it possible that Leviathan was cut content? I'm pretty sure Javik was, but not sure about Leviathan. If the Quarian Ark is cut content, then they probably have most of the assets and voicework ready. From what I remembered, a streamcast with Muzyka and Zeschuck originally had Leviathan as part of the main package somewhere along the lines of "we're visiting the Reaper homeworld." And that's where it began that you're buying the ending. I remember that. Second grievous wound on the same title with me. Preordered it and GameStop tells me that there is Day 1 DLC. DLC that involves Javik. Javik, a real, live Prothean. I will never ever stop kicking that dead horse. And then Leviathan made SOME sense of the ending. The Extended Cut helped the RGB, betray your pick-a-path adventure that made it implausible for me to accept without modding. And there was no modding. That was a title that EA freaking choked to death and thus began the old talent exodus... and here we are now. I'm looking forward to DA4. Anthem, I've got a lot of skepticism about how EA is going to do this, but BioWare will deliver. On time? Remains to be seen. |
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 8, 2017 10:51:50 GMT
Is it possible that Leviathan was cut content? I'm pretty sure Javik was, but not sure about Leviathan. If the Quarian Ark is cut content, then they probably have most of the assets and voicework ready. The way they teased it at the end (quarian ark) seems very strategic so it is possible that it was at least partially done rather than cut. They might have cut aspects of it if it was mean to be finished and didn't make it then they decided to tease it at the end instead. That could be very likely. It always seemed rather odd to me that the quarians and other races were not included then became DLC. When you think about it, how do they not include this race that was part of everything from ME1 on - as a crew member and having aspects of the story revolve to some degree around them history wise. That they were not included initially seems completely bizarre. Your statements are exactly the reason I believe that the Quarian DLC was cut content. Look at how they "tease" it. The person that finds the "distress" signal basically just says we can't trace it and it's left alone. It feels like a setup. Like it was there and ready, but cut out and a single line of dialogue was used to handwave it into obscurity. With the absolutely MASSIVE following of quarians, of which I am not a part, it's ingenious that they cut the content for a DLC. As I've heard it said, "Gotta have those Quarian hips, eh?" I'd be willing to bet that it's a sizeable DLC that will be similar in length to the other Ark missions and I really doubt the patches that have been released will have any impact on the DLC release. BECAUSE of my belief that it is cut content and already developed. Now, if the DLC is delayed for a significant amount of time (IE 1 or 2 months) than I can acquiesce that it wasn't cut. But if it comes out synchronized with the novel, I'll bet it was just cut from the game and patched in the same manner the game was. Edit to add: It would gloriously prove my theory if they have somehow neglected to patch the DLC with the fixed animations. So much so, that not only will I buy it as soon as it drops, but I will revel in said glory. |
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Post by Uchimura on Jul 8, 2017 11:20:03 GMT
I haven't been relevant to this topic after it took off, but anyway..
Some dataminers took to the new update, it doesn't look like there's any hints of Quarians for MP. They have 5 more classes in the wings, but most are humans. The two Batarians were indeed just explained away as part of the Salarian Ark.
Hopefully there is some news today. I still want to see Quarians (and Drell) in MP.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 8, 2017 13:44:31 GMT
From what I remembered, a streamcast with Muzyka and Zeschuck originally had Leviathan as part of the main package somewhere along the lines of "we're visiting the Reaper homeworld." And that's where it began that you're buying the ending. I remember that. Second grievous wound on the same title with me. Preordered it and GameStop tells me that there is Day 1 DLC. DLC that involves Javik. Javik, a real, live Prothean. I will never ever stop kicking that dead horse. And then Leviathan made SOME sense of the ending. The Extended Cut helped the RGB, betray your pick-a-path adventure that made it implausible for me to accept without modding. And there was no modding. That was a title that EA freaking choked to death and thus began the old talent exodus... and here we are now. I'm looking forward to DA4. Anthem, I've got a lot of skepticism about how EA is going to do this, but BioWare will deliver. On time? Remains to be seen. There's a big difference between this and it being 'cut content' though. You might want to give this a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/72269327402/game-developer-myths-the-complete-gameYou can call it 'cut content' (or whatever you like, really) but it would be inaccurate to do so. You may consider From Ashes and Leviathan to be interesting and vital to the overall storyline but then it becomes a question of implying whether there should be some kind of 'cap' in place on how important a DLC can be. Regardless, as the article points out, it isn't vital to to completion of the story. |
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 8, 2017 14:26:09 GMT
And that's where it began that you're buying the ending. I remember that. Second grievous wound on the same title with me. Preordered it and GameStop tells me that there is Day 1 DLC. DLC that involves Javik. Javik, a real, live Prothean. I will never ever stop kicking that dead horse. And then Leviathan made SOME sense of the ending. The Extended Cut helped the RGB, betray your pick-a-path adventure that made it implausible for me to accept without modding. And there was no modding. That was a title that EA freaking choked to death and thus began the old talent exodus... and here we are now. I'm looking forward to DA4. Anthem, I've got a lot of skepticism about how EA is going to do this, but BioWare will deliver. On time? Remains to be seen. There's a big difference between this and it being 'cut content' though. You might want to give this a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/72269327402/game-developer-myths-the-complete-gameYou can call it 'cut content' (or whatever you like, really) but it would be inaccurate to do so. You may consider From Ashes and Leviathan to be interesting and vital to the overall storyline but then it becomes a question of implying whether there should be some kind of 'cap' in place on how important a DLC can be. Regardless, as the article points out, it isn't vital to to completion of the story. The issue with this view, and the view the article author perpetuates, is that the devs determine the value. They do not. When something is obviously cut from the game and it's absence lowers the quality of said game, it means cut content. Whereas, if it simply adds to, it is properly DLC. It's the overall concept that many people try to perpetuate. I do not want to pay for someone to line their pockets with gold. The idea that game developers don't make very much money is freaking ludicrous. I don't mind paying for additional content; additional story. BUT, for example, the Quarians having an ark is NOT additional. When ME:A 2 comes out and the Quarians are in it, if you didn't buy the DLC you won't know how or why they are. THAT's an example of cut content. The Arrival DLC is a good example of content that was worthy of the title DLC. Without it, you could still rationally understand why Shepard started ME 3 in Alliance Custody. The Arrival DLC simply added to the experience; it's absence did not take away from. I'm sorry, but game developers make more money than I ever will and will garner no sympathy from me in terms of what they get paid for what they do. If their salary becomes comparable to mine, then maybe I'll feel sorry for them, but until that day...nope. |
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Post by kumazan on Jul 8, 2017 14:38:39 GMT
There's a big difference between this and it being 'cut content' though. You might want to give this a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/72269327402/game-developer-myths-the-complete-gameYou can call it 'cut content' (or whatever you like, really) but it would be inaccurate to do so. You may consider From Ashes and Leviathan to be interesting and vital to the overall storyline but then it becomes a question of implying whether there should be some kind of 'cap' in place on how important a DLC can be. Regardless, as the article points out, it isn't vital to to completion of the story. The issue with this view, and the view the article author perpetuates, is that the devs determine the value. They do not. When something is obviously cut from the game and it's absence lowers the quality of said game, it means cut content. Whereas, if it simply adds to, it is properly DLC. It's the overall concept that many people try to perpetuate. I do not want to pay for someone to line their pockets with gold. The idea that game developers don't make very much money is freaking ludicrous. I don't mind paying for additional content; additional story. BUT, for example, the Quarians having an ark is NOT additional. When ME:A 2 comes out and the Quarians are in it, if you didn't buy the DLC you won't know how or why they are. THAT's an example of cut content. The Arrival DLC is a good example of content that was worthy of the title DLC. Without it, you could still rationally understand why Shepard started ME 3 in Alliance Custody. The Arrival DLC simply added to the experience; it's absence did not take away from. I'm sorry, but game developers make more money than I ever will and will garner no sympathy from me in terms of what they get paid for what they do. If their salary becomes comparable to mine, then maybe I'll feel sorry for them, but until that day...nope. Why is it OK for a story to continue in additional games (like ME1's in ME3 after ME2's detour), but not in DLC? Edit: And yes, I know about Trespasser and PS3/X360. The problem there isn't the DLC, but the lack of support for some platforms after the game's release. |
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jaegerbane
N3
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 8, 2017 14:41:05 GMT
The issue with this view, and the view the article author perpetuates, is that the devs determine the value. They do not. When something is obviously cut from the game and it's absence lowers the quality of said game, it means cut content. Whereas, if it simply adds to, it is properly DLC. As I said, you can call it whatever you like, but this doesn't mean it becomes cut content simply because you declare it to be so. For instance, your definition here is meaningless as its predicated on the basis that your personal opinion of what value it has to the story forms the definition and dividing line. It's literally no different to deciding that the colour purple is in fact, green, and that everyone who refers to purple is very wrong. As for whether the devs should determine value... tbh they're the creators of the content. Logically, they are going to determine it's value in the same way they determine the rest of its characteristics. The director and editor determine what footage makes it into the film. The author decides which material makes it into the book. The engineer decides the upper level of performance of the machine. What you're effectively arguing is that all DLC should be unimportant. This is an interesting opinion but that is all it is. It has no solid, objective basis and therefore you cannot expect anyone - including the developers, and the publishers - to agree with it by default. |
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outlaw1109
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Post by outlaw1109 on Jul 8, 2017 15:02:08 GMT
The issue with this view, and the view the article author perpetuates, is that the devs determine the value. They do not. When something is obviously cut from the game and it's absence lowers the quality of said game, it means cut content. Whereas, if it simply adds to, it is properly DLC. As I said, you can call it whatever you like, but this doesn't mean it becomes cut content simply because you declare it to be so. For instance, your definition here is meaningless as its predicated on the basis that your personal opinion of what value it has to the story forms the definition and dividing line. It's literally no different to deciding that the colour purple is in fact, green, and that everyone who refers to purple is very wrong. As for whether the devs should determine value... tbh they're the creators of the content. Logically, they are going to determine it's value in the same way they determine the rest of its characteristics. The director and editor determine what footage makes it into the film. The author decides which material makes it into the book. The engineer decides the upper level of performance of the machine. What you're effectively arguing is that all DLC should be unimportant. This is an interesting opinion but that is all it is. It has no solid, objective basis and therefore you cannot expect anyone - including the developers, and the publishers - to agree with it by default. So, I can understand your point here, now, and that perhaps my ability to make objective statements is compromised by my investment in the franchise, I will say that I'm *trying* to look at the STORY, or plot, from an objective perspective. As in, ME 3 was technically complete without the Arrival DLC from ME 2. What's difficult about that statement is that my assertion is actually subjective. I suppose an objective view of cut content would be if the content was developed as a part of the main game and then later cut out as DLC. Simply put: because, while each entry is obviously not the WHOLE story, they are complete in their own way. It's about the plot being complete; the narrative being complete. The game should tell a story. A beginning middle and end, while a different story continues. Using the MEOT as an example: ME1 tells the story of how Shepard brought down Saren and BEGINS the Reaper plot. ME 2 tells the story of how Shepard brought down the Collectors and *kind of* goes over Reaper motives. ME 3 ties all of the lose ends and completes the Reaper plot. Personally, I think the reason a lot of people are dissatisfied with the ME 2 entry is because it doesn't really add to the overall "Reaper" story. it's more of a "pit stop" along the way. |
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
N5
Uncle Cyan
Dang it.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 8, 2017 15:24:15 GMT
And that's where it began that you're buying the ending. I remember that. Second grievous wound on the same title with me. Preordered it and GameStop tells me that there is Day 1 DLC. DLC that involves Javik. Javik, a real, live Prothean. I will never ever stop kicking that dead horse. And then Leviathan made SOME sense of the ending. The Extended Cut helped the RGB, betray your pick-a-path adventure that made it implausible for me to accept without modding. And there was no modding. That was a title that EA freaking choked to death and thus began the old talent exodus... and here we are now. I'm looking forward to DA4. Anthem, I've got a lot of skepticism about how EA is going to do this, but BioWare will deliver. On time? Remains to be seen. There's a big difference between this and it being 'cut content' though. You might want to give this a read: askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/72269327402/game-developer-myths-the-complete-gameYou can call it 'cut content' (or whatever you like, really) but it would be inaccurate to do so. You may consider From Ashes and Leviathan to be interesting and vital to the overall storyline but then it becomes a question of implying whether there should be some kind of 'cap' in place on how important a DLC can be. Regardless, as the article points out, it isn't vital to to completion of the story. Okay! Thank you. I'm reading it. I see what you're saying. However, on the surface to an outsider like me, it still looks bad. I do get what the author is saying. This is good stuff. |
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jaegerbane
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: JaegerBane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 8, 2017 17:14:31 GMT
So, I can understand your point here, now, and that perhaps my ability to make objective statements is compromised by my investment in the franchise, I will say that I'm *trying* to look at the STORY, or plot, from an objective perspective. As in, ME 3 was technically complete without the Arrival DLC from ME 2. What's difficult about that statement is that my assertion is actually subjective. I suppose an objective view of cut content would be if the content was developed as a part of the main game and then later cut out as DLC. ^^ that, specifically. To the best of my knowledge this has never actually happened in this way - as a software dev myself, the thought of having to hack out content during a crunch and to do so in such a way that it doesn't break the overall game sounds like something some clueless wheeler-dealer startup CEO would demand. I've heard of content that was preplanned as being optional, and the basic hooks left in such that the devs can work out whether to create a minor quest for the game release if they have time or use the same hooks for a substantial DLC further down the road. I've also heard of things that were broken on commit time and were disabled, with the 'DLC' being the later fixes required to enable that content... but I've never seen these kinds charged for (Shale in DAO being a good example). FWIW, I agree those DLCs mentioned are vital for the story - I just don't mind paying for extensions to the overall story. Gaming is already a relatively cheap medium in terms of £/$ per hour spent and the previous Bioware DLCs have been fantastic, so extra charges for extended gameplay is fine by me. Then again the only real difference between Arrival and LotSB for me is simply the overall quality level is superior in the latter. They're equal in terms of importance to the story IMHO, but that's kind of the point. My opinion doesn't define them. |
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