zan
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Post by zan on Jul 7, 2017 12:26:43 GMT
Alright, so we have a new hack objective introduced in the last patch. The objective has caused quite a ... difference in opinions between forum members, ranging from 'what are you thinking, give me old hack back' to 'it's good, live with it'. This thread is designed to provide a poll to see where the people's opinions stand as well as to propose other possible ways to change the objective to make it more difficult than the old one.
Original Problem: Pre-1.09 hack objective was basically a free win as long as enough players had oxygen flow to their brain and could make it into the circle Current Solution: Make Hack objective behave similar to Upload, where enemies can contest the progress (and revert it, if there are no players) if present in the hacking circle
Problem with current solution (IMO): Really the issue mainly arises in Platinum and largely due to addition of boss mobs and very quick respawns. It is extremely difficult to deal with endless stream of mooks while also taking cover from boss mob fire. Added on top of that, new enemies (boss zerkers, hydras, etc) have very high hp pool and high mobility, rushing into circle to contest it. Additional problem arises when stealth approach is taken (part of the group lures enemies away from hack circle while infiltrator(s) hack it) when one non-stealth class can ruin the objective by sitting in cover and eating consumables to stay alive, drawing enemies into hack circle, but not actually being able to kill them. This is open to both griefing as well as getting people kicked.
I understand that objective is supposed to be difficult, but in the current state I believe that it's too open to griefing and too difficult to PuG compared to all other objective types. I have listed some possibilities.
The variation of the two first choices simply means adjusting things like hacking speeds, circle size, or anything that does not change the underlying mechanic. Third choice will exclude certain enemies (most likely redbars, and/or others) from contesting the hack circle, allowing the team to concentrate on keeping 'meatier' enemies out of it, while risking being overrun. Fourth choice would use some sort of adjustment to hack speed based on the number of enemies vs players in the circle. This can range from simple 'if there are 4 players and 3 enemies in the circle, then the speed of hacking is that of a single person in the circle' to some more elaborate version.
I am allowing to pick more than one answer because some people will be ok with more than one of these. So, vote away!
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Post by ProbeAway on Jul 7, 2017 12:32:46 GMT
I think this was the classic case of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Apparently this change was based on 'popular feedback'.
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Uchimura
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Post by Uchimura on Jul 7, 2017 12:41:46 GMT
Should be 'Reduced but not stopped' and 'Does not decay'
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vomder
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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XBL Gamertag: killer of stars
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Post by vomder on Jul 7, 2017 15:00:27 GMT
Yea, there is no damn way they play tested this change. It's stupid and unneeded. They should have changed the upload objective like everyone wanted.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 7, 2017 15:04:37 GMT
At this point, I'm finding Silver PuGs are consistently struggling to complete hacks.
There seem to be a number of locations and situations where the enemy continuously spawns directly into the hack in a stream. When it's happening there is no TTK fast enough to resolve the problem because the spawn is too close to the hack for killing them to make any difference.
This change to hacks only works if they change the way spawns work to re-balance it. I'm pretty sure there's no scenario in which the latter can happen, so I don't see much option but to revert them back to the way they were before.
Frankly, I'm not too keen on even going into Gold knowing that a Wave 6 hack will pretty much write off the mission unless I have a couple of really strong players lucked into the PuG.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 7, 2017 15:04:59 GMT
People wanted it harder, now we got harder. No concessions. Now ppl need to git gud already and not lazy credit gobblers.
The only thing I'd be willing to debate is comparing number of players vs enemy units in circle.
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jadedragonmtr
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 7, 2017 15:07:36 GMT
Or perhaps have the new format only on plat and leave the rest of difficulty levels the same as before?
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 7, 2017 15:08:37 GMT
People wanted it harder, now we got harder. Funny, I don't remember asking for that. But you seem very certain, so I must have? O.o Again you seem very certain so I assume there shall be no concession. The only thing I'd be willing to debate is comparing number of players vs enemy units in circle. That would be a concession.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 7, 2017 15:14:18 GMT
The questions that should be asked are, what is the goal of each objective? And then, how do you design the objective to support that goal?
For example, they implied on the Twitch stream that the goal of Devices is to create a frenzied feel like in a movie where you have to defuse a bomb. Or, apparently 4 bombs in a row, which I have never seen in any movie, but whatever. I would argue that they have over-tuned this with the "45 second" clocks (it's actually more like 38 seconds) but at least we can see a direct relationship between objective goal (create frenzied bomb-defusing feel) and objective design (short clock for each device).
What is the design goal of the Hack objective? Is it to make players Hold The Line (i.e. stay in a certain area) for some time? To teach / force the players to play defense instead of offense? This can be a difficult goal in and of itself depending upon difficulty level, location, and so forth.
Or is the Hack design goal to teach / force players how to kite enemies *away* from a certain area? This is a different goal and thus would require a different design.
I don't think Bioware knows that their design goal is for Hacks, and therefor they cannot / have not designed the objective to support that goal. They are just responding to vague feedback ("it's too easy").
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 7, 2017 15:14:26 GMT
People wanted it harder, now we got harder. Funny, I don't remember asking for that. But you seem very certain, so I must have? O.o Again you seem very certain so I assume there shall be no concession. The only thing I'd be willing to debate is comparing number of players vs enemy units in circle. That would be a concession. Go away with that philatelist attitude. MP needs more challenge with the super easy mode the veteran kits alone bring about. Work for your credits, you lazy sob.
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Post by CHRrOME on Jul 7, 2017 15:15:44 GMT
Go back the way it was. There was no need to make hack harder, those who complained about it deserve to be airlocked.
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akots
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Post by akots on Jul 7, 2017 17:58:30 GMT
They should either revert it back to how it were of buff cobras so the circle can be cleared up with 2-3 rockets.
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kikkai
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Post by kikkai on Jul 7, 2017 18:07:38 GMT
I was on mic with semi-new folks (around 500-1000 Apex in comparison to my ~9000) and the new Hack was exhilarating, but not irritating. It just required teamwork and tech cheese (my specialty 😎).
I think that if folks actually work together it's pretty fun. Unfortunately this game still doesn't have a strong sense of teamspeak, so not that great. :/
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Post by unclemonster on Jul 7, 2017 18:08:29 GMT
They should either revert it back to how it were of buff cobras so the circle can be cleared up with 2-3 rockets. Yes, agreed! It would be fine as is, IF cobras did any damage to those giant Vaginas (AKA Progenitor) that spawn those Cycloptic children 5 cobras won't even kill one...
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Post by unclemonster on Jul 7, 2017 18:09:28 GMT
I was on mic with semi-new folks (around 500-1000 Apex in comparison to my ~9000) and the new Hack was exhilarating, but not irritating. It just required teamwork and tech cheese (my specialty 😎). I think that if folks actually work together it's pretty fun. Unfortunately this game still doesn't have a strong sense of teamspeak, so not that great. :/ you obviously are not talking about Platinum... whole different ballgame with hacks...
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Post by rtrnofdmax on Jul 7, 2017 18:12:37 GMT
Go away with that philatelist attitude. Hey, no need to bring stamps into this!
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acicm2
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Post by acicm2 on Jul 7, 2017 18:14:01 GMT
havent played in a while, anyone have footage of the new hack?
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 7, 2017 18:31:40 GMT
havent played in a while, anyone have footage of the new hack? There's...nothing really to see, it's just one big Upload objective now.
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Post by angrybobh on Jul 7, 2017 18:33:07 GMT
The questions that should be asked are, what is the goal of each objective? And then, how do you design the objective to support that goal? For example, they implied on the Twitch stream that the goal of Devices is to create a frenzied feel like in a movie where you have to defuse a bomb. Or, apparently 4 bombs in a row, which I have never seen in any movie, but whatever. I would argue that they have over-tuned this with the "45 second" clocks (it's actually more like 38 seconds) but at least we can see a direct relationship between objective goal (create frenzied bomb-defusing feel) and objective design (short clock for each device). What is the design goal of the Hack objective? Is it to make players Hold The Line (i.e. stay in a certain area) for some time? To teach / force the players to play defense instead of offense? This can be a difficult goal in and of itself depending upon difficulty level, location, and so forth. Or is the Hack design goal to teach / force players how to kite enemies *away* from a certain area? This is a different goal and thus would require a different design. I don't think Bioware knows that their design goal is for Hacks, and therefor they cannot / have not designed the objective to support that goal. They are just responding to vague feedback ("it's too easy"). I always thought the hack was intended for defensive positioning. The new way is more defensive positioning with punishment for letting the enemies get into your defensive perimeter. Which sounds ok in theory but in practice it needs some adjustments. The upload I took as promoting some people kiting baddies away from the uploader(s) On a side note, Why don't we have the escort objective? I always liked that one in ME3 and moving as a unit from one end of the map to the other is fun. I would like to see number of players considered and only certain types of enemies can halt a hack. It only makes sense because how does a dog stop a hack? Against remnant I think hacks should be easily stopped because they are artificial after all. The new way isn't so bad but would be better with better cobras. Cobras allow a lesser team or a team with lesser kits (and/or lesser guns) do some of the harder objectives but at a cost. Cobras have needed a buff since the game came out.
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Post by DoctorFox on Jul 7, 2017 18:38:36 GMT
Best way to solve the imbalance problem would be to make Cobra Missiles the way they were in ME3 MP. Right now it takes 4 or 5 to kill one boss unit. But let's be real here, the hack circle constantly throws bosses at you 1 second after you kill one. If cobras were able to one-shot waves again they would actually be worth using.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 7, 2017 18:39:53 GMT
The problem is that this is the problem even Andromeda points cannot solve.
People who got bsed by this change won`t go buy AP points. They will just quit.
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Transcended One
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 7, 2017 18:41:25 GMT
havent played in a while, anyone have footage of the new hack? Good to see you're still with us, sir! We're in dire need of your godlike meme-posting skills 😎
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OneWomanArmy
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Jul 7, 2017 18:51:33 GMT
havent played in a while, anyone have footage of the new hack? I missed seeing you here!
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Post by Pearl on Jul 7, 2017 20:34:19 GMT
havent played in a while, anyone have footage of the new hack? There really isn't a whole lot to see, the only change they made was that having any enemy enter the hack circle will stop the hack until the zone is cleared, like how Upload works.
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Post by xujparisipc on Jul 7, 2017 21:05:26 GMT
Number of player will make solo terrible. So no solution here. Old one is too easy. Really, it is, you greedy cunts.
Simple solution - faster uploading time.
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