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Post by lennybusker on Jul 10, 2017 23:42:03 GMT
So there's a lot of confusion going around about this, I finally sat down with the help of /u/Hello_Isaac to just get the info straight from the game files. So far I've been able to corroborate all of this with the weapon variants I do have. Any speculation or anecdotal stories otherwise need to be tested and documented using proper test conditions. "Well it doesn't feel like blah blah blah" is nonsense and will be rightfully ignored.First, a primer on priming: www.reddit.com/r/MECoOp/comments/6dhrvx/correlation_between_rof_and_ammo_priming_rate/To simplify that info, weapons that fired bullets used the formula "RoF/25, min 2 max 10" to determine how many shots it took to prime using ammo (variation comes into play when shooting armored targets). Weapons that fired pellets used "RoF/5, min 10 max 50". There were some oddities in this, with the Venom using bullets instead of pellets and the Dhan using pellets instead of bullets. But otherwise everything worked as expected, up to patch 1.09. Patch 1.09 introduced 3 variants per weapon: Concussive, Bulwark, and Siphon. The long and short of it is that all 3 variants of every* pistol, shotgun, and sniper rifle use the pellet formula.*The Dhan flip flops the wrong fucking way, and they still haven't fixed the base weapon. So if you get a Dhan variant, rejoice, you finally have a Dhan that primes the way it ought to. Chart showing this change visually: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XXWgkTUsyJ_QwfxD1hv3zL-x9l4TYlABFDzVOhP2wU8/edit?usp=sharingThe Weapon Stats page is included on Sheet 2. It's from 1.08 data so some of the damage numbers are wrong, but I don't believe any of the ROFs changed (we hope). So, yes, the variants prime. You might not see it because the enemies, especially on Gold and below, might die before you prime them. This does not mean the weapon doesn't prime. tl;dr: Concussive, Bulwark, and Siphon variants of Pistols, and Sniper Rifles require ~5 times as many shots as the base weapon to prime with ammo consumables. Shotguns are unchanged (except for the Crusader, Reegar, Venom and Dhan). Assault Rifles are unchanged.
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Post by poultrymancer on Jul 11, 2017 0:19:40 GMT
As ever, much appreciated!
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 11, 2017 0:20:11 GMT
Great work! So we need to ask them to fix none shotguns except the Dhan.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 0:30:42 GMT
Great work! So we need to ask them to fix none shotguns except the Dhan. The question becomes, is this intentional? Is it something they'll fix? Or will they be stubborn and tell us to shut up and color? At first when all we had was various reports of this and that "not working", I though it was surely just a mistake. But seeing it laid out makes me feel like it's intentional. Not sure whey they wouldn't change Assault Rifles at all, but for instance the Kishock was added this patch, and while the variants all use pellet formula the base weapon uses the bullet formula. That feels like intent to me. The Dhan is the only thing I feel like is "wrong" there. I mean, I wouldn't have made any of these decisions, but it feels more to me like they were in fact decisions.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Jul 11, 2017 2:14:54 GMT
There is an issue I don't see in the post, variant weapons do prime, they do NOT prime at the suggested rate. This can be checked by simply shooting as much as it takes with a high RoF weapon like (hurricane) to prime an non armored enemy with disruptor ammo, since it always primes. Then checking the same function with a hurricane say (siphon), since it has the most issues. Enemies do NOT detonate using the siphon even using the same amount of ammo.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 2:19:25 GMT
There is an issue I don't see in the post, variant weapons do prime, they do NOT prime at the suggested rate. This can be checked by simply shooting as much as it takes with a high RoF weapon like (hurricane) to prime an non armored enemy with disruptor ammo, since it always primes. Then checking the same function with a hurricane say (siphon), since it has the most issues. Enemies do NOT detonate using the siphon even using the same amount of ammo. READ COMPREHEND POST
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Jul 11, 2017 2:22:29 GMT
There is an issue I don't see in the post, variant weapons do prime, they do NOT prime at the suggested rate. This can be checked by simply shooting as much as it takes with a high RoF weapon like (hurricane) to prime an non armored enemy with disruptor ammo, since it always primes. Then checking the same function with a hurricane say (siphon), since it has the most issues. Enemies do NOT detonate using the siphon even using the same amount of ammo. READ COMPREHEND POST Base minimum bullets to prime is 2 for 50 or less RoF. <---- yes Base minimum pellets to prime is 10 for 50 or less RoF. <---- no Base maximum bullets to prime is 10 for 250 or more RoF. <---- yes Base maximum pellets to prime is 50 for 250 or more RoF. <---- no Siphon using the pellet formula as suggested does not prime in a MAX of 50 pellets. I reread my post and seen where you misunderstood me.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 2:26:34 GMT
Base minimum bullets to prime is 2 for 50 or less RoF. <---- yes Base minimum pellets to prime is 10 for 50 or less RoF. <---- no Base maximum bullets to prime is 10 for 250 or more RoF. <---- yes Base maximum pellets to prime is 50 for 250 or more RoF. <---- no Siphon using the pellet formula as suggested does not prime in a MAX of 50 pellets. I reread my post and seen where you misunderstood me. Feel free to upload proof. I can tell you right now what's happening, they're dying before you prime them.
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 11, 2017 2:34:09 GMT
I wouldn't have made any of these decisions MEA in a nutshell right there.
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 11, 2017 4:23:48 GMT
But having two different conventions in priming on the variants of same weapons defies logic, no? They could've just made the SBC weapons not priming at all. Why go through the trouble changing the properties that render the proper functions to practically non-functional?
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 4:36:58 GMT
But having two different conventions in priming on the variants of same weapons defies logic, no? They could've just made the SBC weapons not priming at all. Why go through the trouble changing the properties that render the proper functions to practically non-functional? Gives you a reason to continue to use the base weapon, I guess. Otherwise it would be completely ignored once you unlock a variant weapon.
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 11, 2017 4:54:41 GMT
So the SBC guns aren't plus guns but specialty guns. And that would've been fine have they just taken out the priming all together. Tell the players: you want to prime then use the normal version, you want to regain health then use the siphon, and so on. It creates confusion if some guns do prime but not reliably and some guns don't before killing the enemy but ithey claim to prime. It makes choosing weapons a hit or miss because they might not do what you think they should do. Maybe they had to keep priming in the guns' properties and found a "clever" way to hide it.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 4:57:21 GMT
So the SBC guns aren't plus guns but specialty guns. And that would've been fine have they just taken out the priming all together. Tell the players: you want to prime then use the normal version, you want to regain health then use the siphon, and so on. It creates confusion if some guns do prime but not reliably and some guns don't before killing the enemy but ithey claim to prime. It makes choosing weapons a hit or miss because they might not do what you think they should do. Maybe they had to keep priming in the guns' properties and found a "clever" way to hide it. They do prime "reliably", every time you hit with enough shots to prime before you kill them. I'm not saying it's a good decision, I'm just saying that my two cents is that they made this decision consciously and it's not just a typo in the game data.
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 11, 2017 5:05:39 GMT
Oh no, I get that. Your deduction sounds very reasonable given the data you uncovered. Now more than ever, I wish the SBC would come in as mods, not just because of the diluted pool, but also mods generally don't change guns' basic properties.
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Post by misguidedworm7 on Jul 11, 2017 6:56:36 GMT
So this is their big assault rifle "buff"
Variant assault rifles are now worth using over pistols because their retain ammunition priming properties, while on pistols you have to give up one or the other.
It's a weird way to go about it, but I guess it kinda sorta works.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 11, 2017 12:26:26 GMT
Except that you can't expect the playerbase of a game to accept something as a buff if you never tell them what was buffed and how.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 11, 2017 14:16:50 GMT
Except that you can't expect the playerbase of a game to accept something as a buff if you never tell them what was buffed and how. Well they don't feel like we should know when powers are nerfed either. They don't think we should really know anything. How much of the Masterbook is available in game? Fucking damn near nothing.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 11, 2017 14:28:36 GMT
lennybusker Yeah and it was the same in DAI and the same in ME3. One of my greatest regrets from the loss of the truly Official Bioware forum is that I lost a bookmarked thread where, during the DAI days, one of the developers outright admitted they do not know how powers work. He didn't come out and say that they rely on people like you to test everything but that was also an implication of the thread.
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