The BSN writers club

I can certainly see things from your point of view, I never really thought about it in this context before (though I share your love for Oberyn -- whyyy ) and I tend to agree with your reasoning when looking at it from this side of things. I guess on my part I was caught up in the romance of it, I mean GoT is nothing if not absolutely brutal on people, especially where weddings are concerned (and I'm not even talking about the gore-fest ones), so I tend to be sympathetic to matters of the heart overruling what the surrounding social norms and politics expects of its characters, I've always rooted for various characters breaking their chains in that way. Plus I'm drawn to forbidden romance, hahaha, I've got a Romeo and Juliet complex thing going on (or maybe I just read and saw way too much Shakespeare as a child) - not saying I'm at all into some of GoT's more hairy relationships, it goes in a lot of weird and dark directions; from a narrative point of view it's brilliant, that's why I'm a fan of the series ultimately, but that's not to say it's not chock-full of disturbing crap.  And, of course, you know from my fics that I'm all about the angst, hahaha - romance just happens to be my area of choice where I like expressing that to its fullest extent because that's the only state where you really open your heart all the way and become truly vulnerable to someone, backstabbery under those circumstances is very, very potent (not saying that's not true for other situations or relationships, I love exploring all kinds of angst, this just happens to be my favorite). So, people caught up in emotions and passions, young, foolish and idealistic though they may be and thoroughly punished by the world as they might become (I mean in this example, Lyanna dies horribly in child birth, Rhaegar is cut down and his family - as a child of divorce myself I'm going on the assumption that he cares about his children at least, despite appearances and despite following his heart and eloping with Lyanna - is slaughtered, that's nothing if not instant karma right there), this kind of thing entices me to think about what could have been, admiring such a fragile blossom of love in an unlikely place that gets ruthlessly crushed because there's no room for that sort of frilly "happily ever after" thing in GoT; I enjoy unwrapping that sort of longing for one another in narratives immensely, especially if it ends in tragedy. I mean there is satisfaction to be had from some pairings there, especially when the participants become empowered by it - and also a lot of situations where they are not paired, e.g. I love the Stark girls' narratives because of how they break away from that - but it's the tragic romances that tend to move me in a way that inspires me. I suppose also being a fan of history I've read about so many similar examples of troubles of the heart interfering with the demands of the court that I'm drawn to the drama of the situation, hahaha.
In this case as we follow along their story the whole time I was under the assumption that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so I was not at all sympathetic for most of the story, but when Bran's visions revealed that she was not only a willing participant but that she returned the feelings, something about their story just changed in me I guess? I realized the whole dynamic of that situation was just totally different. Also, let us not forget that history is written by the victors, the Targaryens are painted as uniformly terrible and deserving of their fate, but even despite knowing some of the extenuating facts (e.g. the Mad King being totally bonkers is a valid reason to kill him) no one can convince me that what Tywin or even what Robert did during the revolt was OK in any way, sense or form (and we see from their present-day behavior what kind of people they were and are - I'm not impressed by their motivations). Without witnessing the actual events of that period in GoT history, I'm hesitant to judge the losing side because of this, nor am I totally accepting of the surviving family members' opinions because who wouldn't hate/want revenge for the death of their loved one? That doesn't mean that they understood said loved one in life at all, or their motivations. E.g. the Starks and Robert remember Lyanna as a wonderful young woman who was stolen away by an evil Targaryen, but it's my understanding that they had no idea (or weren't willing to see and accept) that she didn't love Robert and that she might have felt that way about someone else (putting aside now who and what Rhaegar was specifically). In death it's easy to remember her as the victim and her agency in life was clearly dismissed to begin with - you get the idea.

Honestly though, I feel like I still don't really know enough about either one of them to really judge their actions or who they were as people and I know next to nothing about Elia apart from her association to Rhaegar and her ultimate fate; from a moral standpoint as I said, I can certainly get behind your perspective because this IS GoT after all, and we know how absolutely unforgiving an environment it is, especially for women and children, and rank only makes things more dangerous, not less. Looking at it that way it is pretty unforgivable that Rhaegar abandons his family. (Though I confess I have a huge weakness for men with long, white hair, hahahahahaha - not gonna deny that plays its part, I even love-hated Viserys even though I think he was a twat who totally deserved to die and his actual death was spectacular and fitting. *shame* )

Also there's the fact that no one is really pure in GoT, I mean, I love Jamie because he's a very interesting character despite doing some really horrible things and having extremely questionable taste in women, I also liked Drogo even though the way the Dothraki treat women is absolutely appalling, I love following the Hound's story because I find him to be both hilarious and the avatar of brutal honesty despite being totally jaded, yet he's also done the unforgivable more than once; ultimately, everyone has a very prominent and well-exercised dark side in GoT, every good character is either slaughtered or is forced to adapt to the harsh environment of the world and become tainted themselves to one degree or another, so from that point of view... in this kind of context, I tend to be more forgiving of past actions in favor of what each of these characters are doing in the present, and I tend to be more forgiving if it's about matters of the heart, because after all they are human and humans are stupid about emotions in my experience. I think GoT does a great job of showing you people's perspectives that includes all the nasty stuff they're OK with because that's the kind of world they live in, and inevitably you find yourself also being OK with it because that particular character is sympathetic to you - the only people who totally alienate the possibility of sympathy are the "chaotic evil" ones like Joffrey or Ramsey, and honestly, we love to hate them, there's nothing quite so satisfying as watching them finally be fed their own medicine after being forced to sit through atrocity after atrocity at their hands. All respect to that storytelling, I love how those characters were designed to evoke that from readers/viewers and I really, really love this about GoT that even the good guys are terrible if you really think about it (at least with some characters you understand that their motivations are pure, e.g. Jon, even though the way they go about it might make you sorry they live in a world where they have to do things that way).

As a final note, I also keep revisiting how I feel about characters based on each new piece of information we get and especially how they act, e.g. I've felt sympathy for Cersei in some of her darkest moments, even though I think she's vile, cruel and predictable, almost everyone has that part of them that I can connect to on some level because pain is pain, love is love, even if it's twisted. I felt sorry for her having to live a life of lies because pretty much from birth her fate was sealed to go on this path, she's also a woman and therefore is dismissed by her father and others in the court constantly, but e.g. in her case she also reinforces the reasons why I hate her over and over again, so I'm never going to like her or forgive her probably. Then again, some of my favorite characters in various stories have been relatively evil characters who end up reconnecting with the shreds of their lost innocence and things like that - there are very few characters I think are utterly irredeemable and those tend to start out with no capacity for compassion - so who knows? I'm sorry for her that she's lived such a miserable, bitter life, but of course now that she's "queen", I don't really see myself being OK with her no matter what, because power corrupts and there wasn't much left of her purity in her soul to start with, this isn't going to help. I don't think all her kids deserved to die, I don't think Jamie deserves to share in her fate (he has his own fate with his own deserved punishments), but in a way they have always been her punishment and their suffering is also on her to some degree.

I'll stop over-explaining now.

I'm actually a huge Arya fan, I mean she was very young to be thrust into such brutal circumstances but she acquitted herself well all in all; whatever stumbles she had are reasonable for someone in her situation and she's surprisingly level-headed about the horrors she faced in some ways. It's obvious that these experiences changed her deeply and perhaps not for the better (though I have a fondness for assassins which might have something to do with it? Hahaha - that whole Faceless Men thing is totally my favorite subplot if I had to pick one), but I rather enjoy the idea of someone starting out from such powerlessness and innocence growing up to become someone who found a way to draw strength from her situation. With all the Starks my main concern was always that each of them seem too fragile and/or good in their own ways to survive, but that's also why I particularly enjoy seeing their struggles feed their strength. I like how Sansa is turning out, too, she used to annoy me (even though I have a weakness for redheads too, hahaha) but lately I've been really enjoying the way she's handling herself and her circumstance (and no matter what I thought about her before, no one should have to undergo what she went through pretty much at any point in the story, I'm amazed she wasn't totally crushed and broken by the experience).
Yeah, the thing about GoT is that none of the houses are particularly good one way or another, it's easier to get behind individual members of the family and even that can go up and down depending on where in the story you are. It's easier to identify the ones who are the worst of the lot - and I agree, the actors are bloody brilliant, but boy are some of their characters hard to like! Ultimately though I agree, it's good they are so evocative, that's a sign of good characters and a good story.

May I just say it's awesome that your avatar is Liszt Ferenc... and that is indeed a perfect example of this story archetype! But you know, as I said, your position is also totally valid where these guys are concerned, nothing is black and white about this kind of situation and just like there is more than one side to it, there are as many perspectives that need to taken into account to get the complete picture. As to how they handled it, I agree it was handled badly - clearly, considering how horribly things went down. I imagine that in the moment they made those decisions they seemed like the sensible approach, I imagine the secrecy was in part to due the sensitive nature of their existing marital ties/the betrothal (though Rhaegar was pretty damn blatant at that tourney), and perhaps they thought this way no one could interfere before it was too late, but clearly they either underestimated those who opposed the idea or they just timed it very poorly. I'm less fuzzy now with the timeline now that I've read up on it again on wikipedia, hahaha, but I still feel like the story itself just doesn't really give enough - but it's ancient history from the in-story perspective, I suppose just like IRL we are only ever afforded having strong theories about the past, there's only so much you can know. Ultimately though, I think there's a lot of blame to go around there and even the "good guys" are shady as f-- (excepting maybe Ned because apparently the lot of male Starks have honorable hero complexes?), especially Tywin, that guy is just... and Robert was an unmitigated disaster honestly, he should never have become king, but then again I can't exactly blame anyone for revolting against the Aerys, especially once his insanity really started to show.

That is actually another thing that perhaps makes me lean more towards liking Rhaegar rather than not by virtue of comparison, because the "victory" of Robert's Rebellion was a hollow one that only intensified the many issues festering between the houses - let's not even mention all the horrors to come starting with Elia, going on to everything the Lannisters, the Boltons and their ilk caused during the present-day events of GoT, Littlefinger's machinations, the rebellion in the north, etc., likely none of that would have happened. But then again, something else might have that was equally terrible; honestly though, from the little I know, Rhaegar sounds like a much less terrible and inept ruler than the majority of the succeeding rulers in GoT, whether on the Iron Throne or in the north, etc. Either way, Robert never commanded neither the loyalty nor respect that a stable Targaryen would have, I'm sure of that, it's strongly implied (partly because Rhaegar's death was the linchpin that turned the tide and won the rebellion, i.e. they weren't fighting for Aerys but their prince). Sure, the whole Lyanna debacle wouldn't have been any less badly handled, but Elia would not have died perhaps (her death was absolutely senseless and it's just one indication of many of how ruthless and heartless Tywin is - and he sided with Robert, although only because Aerys snubbed him with the whole making Jamie a Kingsguard thing). By all the accounts I've read, Rhaegar had the support of the kingdoms not in rebellion, much more than Aerys himself, and he clearly had gained a good grasp of how much trouble his father was at the end there. Had he put down the rebellion, he would likely have deposed Aerys and perhaps created a much more stable kingdom - or maybe it was ordained that chaos ensue at some point no matter who ruled, because no one comes clean out of a situation like this, there's always a losing side and there are always families that remain bitter. Basically, I just think Robert was a terrible king, Cersei a terrible queen, Tywin an awful person yet a disturbingly brilliant and effective tactician, and pretty much almost everyone these people surrounded themselves with were backstabbing, murderous and greedy louts, excepting the Starks who were dragged into the mess and subsequently paid the price for their loyalty to House Baratheon. I guess I'm just as unforgiving of them in this sense and I base some of my opinions about Rhaegar on what I see from Daenerys (even though she was a mere babe when this all went down); again, I don't blame you for disliking Rhaegar, if anything, these events prove just how little tolerance for good GoT has generally speaking, there are no innocents in this story.

I totally agree they could have done better with Rhaegar's actor in terms of looks, but he still has fabulous hair, hahahaha!

Aww, I enjoyed this conversation, too, it's been fun delving back into GoT - I know there is a thread for this, but this is nicer!  I think we are at the very least equally nutty, hahaha, but I absolutely don't think you're nuts, you are awesome and your responses are long and thoughtful (both good things in my book).