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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 13:54:09 GMT
Well, I know that asari were originally created as blue toys for fanboys and their fantasies. So I am not surprised at all. In fact, I doubt anything regarding ME ´ fandom ´ is able to surprise me anymore. At least in a good way. This comment isn't even close to fair. Asari were my least favorite alien race of the ME trilogy and I didn't care about Liara like most other people did and yet even I'M really bothered by the the Asari clones in Andromeda. This game actually made me miss Liara and the other Asari from the original trilogy, I didn't even think that was possible. Well, I am very sorry if my comment bothers you so much. I am truly ashamed by my lack of fairness. Seriously though, no one is stopping you from having your personal opinion. Have a good day.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 20, 2017 14:20:18 GMT
Um....No. They were placeholders that should have been replaced but weren't either because of time constraints or cash. Either way, this was an appalling error on BW's part and personally is the most jarring aspect of the game visually as it's not a bug, it's a decision. If all human males or females looked alike nobody would be giving it a pass. Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the usual suspects would be queuing up to justify it. I guess it's a question of perspective more than anything. I can't speak for everyone else but the face thing for me is a minor irritant - I wish there was more, but it doesn't actually register for me in terms of my enjoyment of the game. Regarding why people 'defend' it - I guess the problem with making it out to be a huge 'appalling' issue is that it's not new. The entire trilogy had this issue (e.g. aside from Garrus and Saren, every male turian was in the same boat). For the argument to work, you'd have to have dropped ME1 midway through your first run if the outrage was realistically enough to make a deal out of it now. You may have actually done just this so I'm not going to say you're wrong on it, merely that argument makes no sense if you were happy to run through the OT with the same issue. The stuff about what would have happened if they'd done this with humans is not really relevant, as they didn't do it with humans.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 15:02:20 GMT
Um....No. They were placeholders that should have been replaced but weren't either because of time constraints or cash. Either way, this was an appalling error on BW's part and personally is the most jarring aspect of the game visually as it's not a bug, it's a decision. If all human males or females looked alike nobody would be giving it a pass. Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the usual suspects would be queuing up to justify it. I guess it's a question of perspective more than anything. I can't speak for everyone else but the face thing for me is a minor irritant - I wish there was more, but it doesn't actually register for me in terms of my enjoyment of the game. Regarding why people 'defend' it - I guess the problem with making it out to be a huge 'appalling' issue is that it's not new. The entire trilogy had this issue (e.g. aside from Garrus and Saren, every male turian was in the same boat). For the argument to work, you'd have to have dropped ME1 midway through your first run if the outrage was realistically enough to make a deal out of it now. You may have actually done just this so I'm not going to say you're wrong on it, merely that argument makes no sense if you were happy to run through the OT with the same issue. The stuff about what would have happened if they'd done this with humans is not really relevant, as they didn't do it with humans. I think part of it is that Bioware did use some different face models for the asari in the original trilogy and that their face do look more "human" than the other species. I do find it intriguing though that there are no complaints really being made about the angara having all the same basic facial structure save a couple of unique ones... much the same as they did with the turians in the original trilogy... so, I think it is the change that people are finding most bothersome. To me, it seems more odd that they would just "forget" to remove a placeholder than it would have been for them to make some sort of conscious (albeit poor) decision to present the asari all with the same facial structure this time around. With more obviously different face paintings appearing though, I am truly not bothered by it. On board the asari ark, for example, I was quite able to tell the asari npcs apart from each other. By that point in the game, I honestly wasn't finding it jarring in the least.
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Post by Sondergaard on Jul 20, 2017 16:25:47 GMT
Um....No. They were placeholders that should have been replaced but weren't either because of time constraints or cash. Either way, this was an appalling error on BW's part and personally is the most jarring aspect of the game visually as it's not a bug, it's a decision. If all human males or females looked alike nobody would be giving it a pass. Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the usual suspects would be queuing up to justify it. I guess it's a question of perspective more than anything. I can't speak for everyone else but the face thing for me is a minor irritant - I wish there was more, but it doesn't actually register for me in terms of my enjoyment of the game. Regarding why people 'defend' it - I guess the problem with making it out to be a huge 'appalling' issue is that it's not new. The entire trilogy had this issue (e.g. aside from Garrus and Saren, every male turian was in the same boat). For the argument to work, you'd have to have dropped ME1 midway through your first run if the outrage was realistically enough to make a deal out of it now. You may have actually done just this so I'm not going to say you're wrong on it, merely that argument makes no sense if you were happy to run through the OT with the same issue. The stuff about what would have happened if they'd done this with humans is not really relevant, as they didn't do it with humans. Asari have human faces. Of course it's relevant. Turians don't so it's far less noticeable.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 20, 2017 16:31:12 GMT
The only reason we have clone Asari is that they ran out of time to get the game out of the door. Personally I hate the fact they are clones, it really bugs me. People who enjoy Dragon Age 2 have come to terms with each cave being 'The Cave'. The same reconciliation will happen for MEA, in my view.
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Post by jclosed on Jul 20, 2017 16:53:06 GMT
Well - It could also be a limitation of the frostbite engine. It could be that the number of faces you can place on moving characters is limited in the unexpanded base engine. In that case they have to work with those limitations and they have to choose where they place the most face-variation. As humans are almost seen everywhere, it is obvious they have to use the most available variation for human faces.
There is probably a way around that limitation, but it could involve some clever and lengthily coding that would take too much time to get things ready for launch day. For instance - only "place" faces on characters that are in the "line of sight", and use a fast database procedure to "add/remove" faces from a shared pool if the "line of vision" changes. And on top of that - Place "generic" faces on characters that are too fare away to notice the similarity.
This are just speculations of course. But seeing all those "messages" that the developers where under heavy time pressure, I guess "cutting corners" is needed to get the game at least somewhat "ready for launch".
Personally I noticed it, but it's not a very big deal for me. I can understand that some people are more sensitive to this, but for me? Nah - It's not something that spoils the game for me, so....
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Post by smilesja on Jul 20, 2017 16:53:46 GMT
Well, I know that asari were originally created as blue toys for fanboys and their fantasies. So I am not surprised at all. In fact, I doubt anything regarding ME ´ fandom ´ is able to surprise me anymore. At least in a good way. So, you two are actually thinking it's okay for every NPC of an entire race in the game to look the same? Defending an actual decision? Now that's what I call low standards, but then again, no surprise when coming from the same people who think there's nothing wrong with this game.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 20, 2017 17:06:59 GMT
So, you two are actually thinking it's okay for every NPC of an entire race in the game to look the same? Defending an actual decision? Now that's what I call low standards, but then again, no surprise when coming from the same people who think there's nothing wrong with this game. I'm inclined to think that the decision to make them all look alike has a story purpose... that of re-introducing the notion from ME2 that the asari are indeed able to alter their appearance to suit what the viewer wants to see as ideal. Since an individual's perception was what an ideal face doesn't change, if the asari are sending out signals that alter their appearance to please the person seeing them, they would all appear essentially the same. They would all appear differently to different individuals but we only ever see them through Ryder's eyes. PeeBee appears different because she wants to be perceived as someone different from the average asari, so she's sending out a different signal. The bottom line is that we don't really know what asari actually look like... which is something that may be revealed in a later game. Also, in reality, they don't all look exactly alike... they sport different facial paint patterns and as I worked my way through the game, I really stopped noticing the repeated facial structure and started seeing them more individuals based on their facial markings. That said, I even think they have been tweeking the shaders on some of them to make those differences seem more obvious and give some appearance of a little variation in the facial structures as well. Was that a good decision on the part of Bioware? Obviously not... the fans have reacted badly to it and, more importantly, if I am right about it, it should have been explained somewhere in the game... effectively - a repeat of bachelor party scene in the ilium bar somewhere in the game. So, you can certainly let it prevent you from trying out the game a second time... that is your prerogative for sure. Personally, I'm quite happy overlooking it. Other than the major asari characters (like Liara, Samara, and Aria) they have all looked the same in the original trilogy.
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Post by Sondergaard on Jul 20, 2017 17:18:08 GMT
I'm inclined to think that the decision to make them all look alike has a story purpose... that of re-introducing the notion from ME2 that the asari are indeed able to alter their appearance to suit what the viewer wants to see as ideal. Since an individual's perception was what an ideal face doesn't change, if the asari are sending out signals that alter their appearance to please the person seeing them, they would all appear essentially the same. They would all appear differently to different individuals but we only ever see them through Ryder's eyes. PeeBee appears different because she wants to be perceived as someone different from the average asari, so she's sending out a different signal. The bottom line is that we don't really know what asari actually look like... which is something that may be revealed in a later game. Also, in reality, they don't all look exactly alike... they sport different facial paint patterns and as I worked my way through the game, I really stopped noticing the repeated facial structure and started seeing them more individuals based on their facial markings. That said, I even think they have been tweeking the shaders on some of them to make those differences seem more obvious and give some appearance of a little variation in the facial structures as well. Was that a good decision on the part of Bioware? Obviously not... the fans have reacted badly to it and, more importantly, if I am right about it, it should have been explained somewhere in the game... effectively - a repeat of bachelor party scene in the ilium bar somewhere in the game. So, you can certainly let it prevent you from trying out the game a second time... that is your prerogative for sure. Personally, I'm quite happy overlooking it. Other than the major asari characters (like Liara, Samara, and Aria) they have all looked the same in the original trilogy. Seriously? We're doing this again? Fair enough. All non-major character asari did not look the same in the OT. I fail to see how anyone who played the games could come to this conclusion. They weren't unique, with 4/5 face variations per game, but combine that with differences in markings and skin tone and you had massive variety. And this is for background asari. All speaking roles were unique. And spare me the 'rose tinted glasses' argument. I was playing ME3 yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 17:28:27 GMT
I'm inclined to think that the decision to make them all look alike has a story purpose... that of re-introducing the notion from ME2 that the asari are indeed able to alter their appearance to suit what the viewer wants to see as ideal. Since an individual's perception was what an ideal face doesn't change, if the asari are sending out signals that alter their appearance to please the person seeing them, they would all appear essentially the same. They would all appear differently to different individuals but we only ever see them through Ryder's eyes. PeeBee appears different because she wants to be perceived as someone different from the average asari, so she's sending out a different signal. The bottom line is that we don't really know what asari actually look like... which is something that may be revealed in a later game. Also, in reality, they don't all look exactly alike... they sport different facial paint patterns and as I worked my way through the game, I really stopped noticing the repeated facial structure and started seeing them more individuals based on their facial markings. That said, I even think they have been tweeking the shaders on some of them to make those differences seem more obvious and give some appearance of a little variation in the facial structures as well. Was that a good decision on the part of Bioware? Obviously not... the fans have reacted badly to it and, more importantly, if I am right about it, it should have been explained somewhere in the game... effectively - a repeat of bachelor party scene in the ilium bar somewhere in the game. So, you can certainly let it prevent you from trying out the game a second time... that is your prerogative for sure. Personally, I'm quite happy overlooking it. Other than the major asari characters (like Liara, Samara, and Aria) they have all looked the same in the original trilogy. I don't recall them being all the same. I thought there were 3 or so different face models; but I could be wrong. If they were all the same, I think there's even less reason for people to be still so upset about it this time around and even more reason to believe it was a conscious decision by Bioware rather than the result of forgetting to replace a placeholder or due to being inordinately rushed at the end. Regardless, as I said before, I did notice it at first, but as I worked my way further and further into the game, the asari started looking quite individual to me because of the variations in facial markings. I had no difficulties telling different ones apart. It was the same with the various turians, salarians, krogan, and angara I met throughout the game. I certainly don't think it's enough of a problem for me to try to tell someone else that they shouldn't try the game for a first or second time... which is the overarching point of the thread.
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Monica21
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 20, 2017 17:35:56 GMT
The impression I got was that he was suggesting the gaming websites with the earliest reviews didn't actually review the game in its entirety, due to the pressure of getting the review out. I actually think he made a fair point - I personally felt that the game found it's feet around the mid-point and it took off from there, which I don't recall ever being mentioned to any great degree in any of the reviews (kadara's arc, the memories etc) and EA's choice to drip-feed the first 10 hours in a game where the weakest part is the roughly 5 hours was a turkey decision. I do agree that MEA really started to take off midway through, but I also really liked everything through turning on the vault on Eos. I think that without the animation issues, the game would have been rated much higher, since that's probably the only thing the reviewers would have played anyway. Um....No. They were placeholders that should have been replaced but weren't either because of time constraints or cash. Either way, this was an appalling error on BW's part and personally is the most jarring aspect of the game visually as it's not a bug, it's a decision. If all human males or females looked alike nobody would be giving it a pass. Actually, that's not true. I'm sure the usual suspects would be queuing up to justify it. Aside from face paint, all the turians and salarians look alike too, so I'm not sure why the focus is on the asari.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2017 17:37:03 GMT
The only reason we have clone Asari is that they ran out of time to get the game out of the door. Personally I hate the fact they are clones, it really bugs me. People who enjoy Dragon Age 2 have come to terms with each cave being 'The Cave'. The same reconciliation will happen for MEA, in my view. Being reconciled to that =/=liking it. It's just being willing to tolerate it. And "I can tolerate it" isn't exactly a mark of pride for a game.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2017 17:43:29 GMT
Aside from face paint, all the turians and salarians look alike too, so I'm not sure why the focus is on the asari. You humans are all racist! But really, the reason for the focus on the asari is that they are the most "human-looking" of the alien races. Aside from their blue or purple skin and their "semi-flexible, cartilage-based scalp-crests" they are, in fact, human in appearance (blue space babes, after all). And as such we are more likely to note specific physical differences than we are aliens that look like birds with exoskeletons, giant toads, or cat-squids.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 20, 2017 18:14:42 GMT
People who enjoy Dragon Age 2 have come to terms with each cave being 'The Cave'. The same reconciliation will happen for MEA, in my view. Being reconciled to that =/=liking it. It's just being willing to tolerate it. And "I can tolerate it" isn't exactly a mark of pride for a game. Fair point. I tolerate 'the Cave' because I enjoy other aspects of Dragon Age 2.
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Post by Eleonora on Jul 20, 2017 18:25:06 GMT
Well - It could also be a limitation of the frostbite engine. It could be that the number of faces you can place on moving characters is limited in the unexpanded base engine. In that case they have to work with those limitations and they have to choose where they place the most face-variation. As humans are almost seen everywhere, it is obvious they have to use the most available variation for human faces. There is probably a way around that limitation, but it could involve some clever and lengthily coding that would take too much time to get things ready for launch day. For instance - only "place" faces on characters that are in the "line of sight", and use a fast database procedure to "add/remove" faces from a shared pool if the "line of vision" changes. And on top of that - Place "generic" faces on characters that are too fare away to notice the similarity. This are just speculations of course. But seeing all those "messages" that the developers where under heavy time pressure, I guess "cutting corners" is needed to get the game at least somewhat "ready for launch".
Personally I noticed it, but it's not a very big deal for me. I can understand that some people are more sensitive to this, but for me? Nah - It's not something that spoils the game for me, so.... They probably ran out of time to further develop morphing asari faces, but it's not about engine or mechanics limitations. I was delving into modding Andromeda and looking around the modding scene, and someone managed to use an asari face for the main character - and made it morphable as well by using the human head mesh as a template and sticking the asari characteristics onto that. This means that the option to edit asari faces was almost in the game. It's not there completely, but it's not far out of the realm of possibilities either. So yeah, if a modder, an unofficial content creator (not having the inside knowledge developers have) can almost do it, developers certainly can. It's just a matter of not being able/willing to put time into further developing the feature. Personally I think it's a shame they didn't give the asari unique faces, but it doesn't ruin the game for me either. It's just a mild annoyance, like the DA2 cave(s) SofaJockey mentioned.
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Post by jclosed on Jul 20, 2017 19:05:31 GMT
Well - It could also be a limitation of the frostbite engine. It could be that the number of faces you can place on moving characters is limited in the unexpanded base engine. In that case they have to work with those limitations and they have to choose where they place the most face-variation. As humans are almost seen everywhere, it is obvious they have to use the most available variation for human faces. There is probably a way around that limitation, but it could involve some clever and lengthily coding that would take too much time to get things ready for launch day. For instance - only "place" faces on characters that are in the "line of sight", and use a fast database procedure to "add/remove" faces from a shared pool if the "line of vision" changes. And on top of that - Place "generic" faces on characters that are too fare away to notice the similarity. This are just speculations of course. But seeing all those "messages" that the developers where under heavy time pressure, I guess "cutting corners" is needed to get the game at least somewhat "ready for launch".
Personally I noticed it, but it's not a very big deal for me. I can understand that some people are more sensitive to this, but for me? Nah - It's not something that spoils the game for me, so.... They probably ran out of time to further develop morphing asari faces, but it's not about engine or mechanics limitations. I was delving into modding Andromeda and looking around the modding scene, and someone managed to use an asari face for the main character - and made it morphable as well by using the human head mesh as a template and sticking the asari characteristics onto that. This means that the option to edit asari faces was almost in the game. It's not there completely, but it's not far out of the realm of possibilities either. So yeah, if a modder, an unofficial content creator (not having the inside knowledge developers have) can almost do it, developers certainly can. It's just a matter of not being able/willing to put time into further developing the feature. Personally I think it's a shame they didn't give the asari unique faces, but it doesn't ruin the game for me either. It's just a mild annoyance, like the DA2 cave(s) SofaJockey mentioned. Well - If a modder almost did it, it means it is possible, but not ready yet. So I think it's indeed some limitation in the base code. If it was that easy, that modder would have succeeded (because it would be simple to replace/expand a number of faces if it simply was some data replacement), but he did not. I think there is still a lot of work to do, and (as said) they simply have run out of time. It is fully possible they had planned it for a upcoming patch, but where forced to do the improvement of animation first (following the outrage and "funny" YouTube "reviews"). Combine that with bug hunting and a scaled down and thus scarce workforce (certainly if a bunch of them are working on some kind of DLC too and are not free to do something else), it is obvious it will be not their first priority. It is fully possible we will see improvements later on with an upcoming patch, but if or when that will be, is any ones guess.
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Post by SilentK on Jul 20, 2017 19:17:50 GMT
I am really looking forward to seeing the game again with the updates Started a new Ryder with a custom face but didn't like the feel of it, so I am restarting it again. Have been waiting a feew weeks now because I am waiting for a dlc to show up sometime soon. Hope they will get around to making the asari more like separate individuals because that one really irritates me. However, I did learn to live with the famous "The One and Only Cave of DA2" so I guess I will learn to live with the asari as well. Indeed, DA2 is one of my favorite Dragon Age games, it had excellent dlc. Hoping it will be same case for ME:A
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Post by Eleonora on Jul 20, 2017 20:12:52 GMT
They probably ran out of time to further develop morphing asari faces, but it's not about engine or mechanics limitations. I was delving into modding Andromeda and looking around the modding scene, and someone managed to use an asari face for the main character - and made it morphable as well by using the human head mesh as a template and sticking the asari characteristics onto that. This means that the option to edit asari faces was almost in the game. It's not there completely, but it's not far out of the realm of possibilities either. So yeah, if a modder, an unofficial content creator (not having the inside knowledge developers have) can almost do it, developers certainly can. It's just a matter of not being able/willing to put time into further developing the feature. Personally I think it's a shame they didn't give the asari unique faces, but it doesn't ruin the game for me either. It's just a mild annoyance, like the DA2 cave(s) SofaJockey mentioned. Well - If a modder almost did it, it means it is possible, but not ready yet. So I think it's indeed some limitation in the base code. If it was that easy, that modder would have succeeded (because it would be simple to replace/expand a number of faces if it simply was some data replacement), but he did not. I think there is still a lot of work to do, and (as said) they simply have run out of time. It is fully possible they had planned it for a upcoming patch, but where forced to do the improvement of animation first (following the outrage and "funny" YouTube "reviews"). Combine that with bug hunting and a scaled down and thus scarce workforce (certainly if a bunch of them are working on some kind of DLC too and are not free to do something else), it is obvious it will be not their first priority. It is fully possible we will see improvements later on with an upcoming patch, but if or when that will be, is any ones guess. We can only hope. I can't even blame them for prioritizing other stuff, but it's still a shame.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 20, 2017 20:28:09 GMT
But really, the reason for the focus on the asari is that they are the most "human-looking" of the alien races. Aside from their blue or purple skin and their "semi-flexible, cartilage-based scalp-crests" they are, in fact, human in appearance (blue space babes, after all). And as such we are more likely to note specific physical differences than we are aliens that look like birds with exoskeletons, giant toads, or cat-squids. And that's fine, but I would also like to see more variance in the turians and salarians, in addition to asari. Probably because I just like turians and salarians better than asari.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 20, 2017 20:52:26 GMT
Well, I know that asari were originally created as blue toys for fanboys and their fantasies. So I am not surprised at all. In fact, I doubt anything regarding ME ´ fandom ´ is able to surprise me anymore. At least in a good way. This comment isn't even close to fair. Asari were my least favorite alien race of the ME trilogy and I didn't care about Liara like most other people did and yet even I'M really bothered by the the Asari clones in Andromeda. This game actually made me miss Liara and the other Asari from the original trilogy, I didn't even think that was possible. Thank you. Of all the ridiculous posts that could claim to be SJW in a non-sarcastic way, this one is the winner. Liara, a 100 year old woman-child that knows your own history as well or better than you do, is already a known and respected scientist throughout the galaxy, is nothing but a sex toy. Sure. Dumbest post of the week!
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 20, 2017 21:21:06 GMT
Asari have human faces. Of course it's relevant. Turians don't so it's far less noticeable. Well.... they certainly have human-like faces. They're not literally human faces... facial hair, moles, nose structure, that's all out. But if we're going to start picking and choosing fictional alien species to get outraged about, then it kind of becomes another question. What it ultimately boils down to is this - the argument that a lack of variation in facial structures in general is a valid complaint - particularly in game like this. Of course, this comes with the caveat that you can't really focus on a single game when it's been a franchise-wide thing. However.... if we're going to start trying to claim that a certain number of a non-human alien species looks too much like a given human but not enough like more humans... realistically you don't have a significant argument anymore. At least, not a one that can realistically be claimed to be an 'appalling' lapse of judgement. Don't get me wrong, I generally wish the aliens in ME had more variation but lets not dress this up as more of an issue then it is. If this kind of thing had honestly been a problem for a gamer, MEA is a bit late to be getting annoyed about it.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jul 20, 2017 21:47:37 GMT
So, you two are actually thinking it's okay for every NPC of an entire race in the game to look the same? Defending an actual decision? Now that's what I call low standards, but then again, no surprise when coming from the same people who think there's nothing wrong with this game. Oh, I forgot you enjoy this BS they came up with. I forgot you enjoy just about anything in this game. No flaws. No one can name the most glaring ones. Go rolleyes to your own fanboy nonsense. Noobs.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 20, 2017 21:48:36 GMT
Oh, I forgot you enjoy this BS they came up with. I forgot you enjoy just about anything in this game. No flaws. No one can name the most glaring ones. Go rolleyes to your own fanboy nonsense. Noobs. Is that the best you got?
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jul 20, 2017 21:51:58 GMT
No, still waiting for anything constructive to come out of your keyboard instead of likes and :rolleyes:
Lmao, no, do your thing, brings me joy to know I bother some of you.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 20, 2017 21:59:47 GMT
No, still waiting for anything constructive to come out of your keyboard instead of likes and :rolleyes: Lmao, no, do your thing, brings me joy to know I bother some of you. I'm waiting for yours. But It seems that you're more interested in belittling others.
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