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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 23, 2017 17:09:35 GMT
The fact that there's a correlation is obvious I would think. The bigger question is the chicken/egg problem: whether the reviews impact sales or whether good games sell better naturally and the reviews are simply accurately reporting quality. I doubt we'll get great info on that any time soon, especially since a lot of the effect of review scores on sales may be subconscious. Ok. Brilliant. I was just about to post pretty much this. Very good point. For people on the fence, Metacritic scores might determine if they buy the game. I'm sure that happened some work Andromeda. Maybe not Metacritic itself, but review scores at least. But Shinobiwan makes an extremely good point. Games with higher scores probably sell better because they are better games. So it's not the scores influencing the sales, but the quality that influences both sales and scores. HZD and BOTW don't sell great because they reviewed high. They sell great because they are great games and word of mouth gets around.
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Post by anarchy65 on Jul 23, 2017 17:12:43 GMT
The fact that there's a correlation is obvious I would think. The bigger question is the chicken/egg problem: whether the reviews impact sales or whether good games sell better naturally and the reviews are simply accurately reporting quality. I doubt we'll get great info on that any time soon, especially since a lot of the effect of review scores on sales may be subconscious. That would be a great subject for a research.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 23, 2017 17:20:30 GMT
HZD and BOTW don't sell great because they reviewed high. They sell great because they are great games and word of mouth gets around. This is circular logic, though. They sell great because they're great games. They're great games so their reviews are great. Their reviews are great so they sell great. There is a kernel of the game being good, but the whole point of the thread is how much extra score (be it negative or positive) is generated by the review system to begin with. BOTW, for instance, wouldn't have reviewed anywhere near as well as it did if it had been simply judged on its own merits and not simply been a Zelda game that brought new stuff to the series.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 23, 2017 17:26:42 GMT
HZD and BOTW don't sell great because they reviewed high. They sell great because they are great games and word of mouth gets around. This is circular logic, though. They sell great because they're great games. They're great games so their reviews are great. Their reviews are great so they sell great. There is a kernel of the game being good, but the whole point of the thread is how much extra score (be it negative or positive) is generated by the review system to begin with. BOTW, for instance, wouldn't have reviewed anywhere near as well as it did if it had been simply judged on its own merits and not simply been a Zelda game that brought new stuff to the series. I understand the point of the thread. But you can't realistically test if review scores cause higher sales or if better games (which would have higher review scores) sell better because they are good and then also have high review scores. To test that you would have to have the same game and have two different sets of people tell you if they wanted to buy it by having a different review score for each test group. But the statistics from the article don't come from a vacuum like that. They can't separate game quality from review scores because they are, for her most part, inexorably linked. So do review scores influence sales? Maybe! Probably some. But more than that it is probably that better games have higher scores and sell more because they are just that: Better.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 23, 2017 20:05:22 GMT
So do review scores influence sales? Maybe! Probably some. But more than that it is probably that better games have higher scores and sell more because they are just that: Better. That isn't enough to explain it by itself, otherwise stuff like Destiny and Call of Duty selling more than HZD mean they're better than it. Also sports games sell more than RPGs so hey, must be better, right?
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 23, 2017 20:50:23 GMT
Possibly.
But it shouldn't. Especially when a site like OpenCritic does aggregate scoring better.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 23, 2017 20:52:14 GMT
So do review scores influence sales? Maybe! Probably some. But more than that it is probably that better games have higher scores and sell more because they are just that: Better. That isn't enough to explain it by itself, otherwise stuff like Destiny and Call of Duty selling more than HZD mean they're better than it. Also sports games sell more than RPGs so hey, must be better, right? Well, kind of. They are better for the people who enjoy those types of games. Madden sells a whole lot because people enjoy the game and it's really the only NFL game available. Does the number of people buying Madden change each year depending on their review score? Doubtful. The people that buy Madden every year will do so regardless of if it gets a 75 or a 95. That's why looking in-genre is better for this kind of analysis. RPG to RPG, sport game to sport game, etc. You can't really compare sales of COD to sales of Kingdoms of Amalur when discussing review scores. You need a similar player base. Which, again, is why I say that the statistics here are interesting, but not particular meaningful. Sales can be influenced by when the game came out, competition from other games, advertising, controversies, etc. I mean, you can look at the data and see that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, the average sea temperature has increased. Meaningful? No. An accurate statement? Sure. Correlation doesn't imply causation. In this case I just don't feel there is enough reduction of variables to make everything comparable, and to me seems much more likely that sales of good games are higher than sales of bad games because of overall game quality instead of review scores. That won't always be true, but I'm general the impact review scores has on sales, especially when talking about Metacritic specifically, is probably negligible. If there was some kind of aggregate of YouTube creator reviews, I think that would have a bigger impact. People care way more about what Total Biscuit thinks about a game than what Forbes does, for the most part. I think people would be more inclined to go to their "go-to" reviewer than base the decision on Metacritic. That, of course, is all speculation. But as to the data provided, I would say most of it is incomparable.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jul 23, 2017 20:57:08 GMT
It seems EA gave up on the game as soon as they saw the score. So it certainly carries weight with the Publishers.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 23, 2017 21:01:37 GMT
It seems EA gave up on the game as soon as they saw the score. So it certainly carries weight with the Publishers. It always did, some companies tie bonuses and other incentives to high metacritic scores. Bethesda most famously did that with Fallout: New Vegas.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 21:10:22 GMT
MEA should have been scored in the 90s at least... /spoken with forked tongue, lol
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Post by Sondergaard on Jul 23, 2017 21:16:52 GMT
Hard to say. The game was fundamentally flawed and unfinished Witcher III is a fundamentally flawed and unfinished game. It actually is a broken game. But all of the people who want BioWare staff to die over complete lies they spout about ME:A brainlessly give Witcher III 10/10 for being garbage. Hey, Fluffy! I see the suggestions for anger management fell on deaf ears.
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Post by q5tyhj on Jul 23, 2017 21:17:03 GMT
The fact that there's a correlation is obvious I would think. The bigger question is the chicken/egg problem: whether the reviews impact sales or whether good games sell better naturally and the reviews are simply accurately reporting quality. I doubt we'll get great info on that any time soon, especially since a lot of the effect of review scores on sales may be subconscious. Ok. Brilliant. I was just about to post pretty much this. Very good point. For people on the fence, Metacritic scores might determine if they buy the game. I'm sure that happened some work Andromeda. Maybe not Metacritic itself, but review scores at least. But Shinobiwan makes an extremely good point. Games with higher scores probably sell better because they are better games. So it's not the scores influencing the sales, but the quality that influences both sales and scores. HZD and BOTW don't sell great because they reviewed high. They sell great because they are great games and word of mouth gets around. Yep, the old refrain about correlation vs. causation applies here. For my part, I suspect its a little bit of both: Metacritic scores and sales are both functions/effects of the quality of the game, but there are certainly some people who base their game purchasing decisions (at least in part) on Metacritic scores or other critic feedback.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jul 23, 2017 22:38:57 GMT
Expectations were not as high for DAI. I don't personally know anyone who was hyped up for Inquisition What you really mean is "I didn't give a crap so I didn't care in the slightest about all the people who did!" No. I had just gotten DA:O in 2014 and was nowhere near finished with it. I was enjoying it a lot, but I make it a point to finish the first game in a series before other games. I made the mistake of playing ME2 before ME1 and playing Skyrim before Morrowind and Oblivion; both instances left me very confused as to what was going on in the respective series' sequels. So I play the first game in a series nowadays. Regardless, I have friends who are into gaming, and friends of friends who are into gaming. I can't think of anyone in my circle who was really excited for DAI but I know at least several of those same people bought the game anyway. What that tells me is that DAI exceeded its expectations. That doesn't necessarily mean any of my friends thought it'd be bad, but despite a lack of visible enthusiasm before purchasing it, bought it and played it anyway. I still haven't had the time to pick up Inquisition and run through it but I want to. Expectations were not as high for DAI. I don't personally know anyone who was hyped up for Inquisition, but I know quite a few who bought the game anyway. Whether or not they enjoyed the game varied from person to person, but it didn't appear as though Inquisition had much pressure to be good. After DAII pressure certainly was high. There were quite a lot of people not liking where DAII was going. DAI had to make good on that. I would even go as far as saying the pressure was higher than with Mass Effect. It was only the endings that provided for a shitstorm, not the whole game as it was the case with DAII. Expectations =/= Pressure. True, DAI needed to be good, but a lot of people counted it out early and it ended up being successful anyway. Andromeda had more hype built around it, but much of that fizzled out after the demo released and the game was hijacked into being a giant meme.
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Post by rolenka on Jul 24, 2017 0:36:44 GMT
Yes, but not as much as all the bad press and negative gossip over Manveer Heir and then the animations and ugly Sarah Ryder.
Really all of that probably made it harder for reviewers to remain objective and brought scores down a few points.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 24, 2017 0:42:46 GMT
Anyone with a brain knows Metacritic is full of crap. But hey, if you're happy to make allies with people whose psychotic hatred and wish to see the game fail is fuelled purely by bigotry against women and LGBT people, good for you. Anyone with a pathetic obsession with shitting on the game is cool with you.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jul 24, 2017 0:46:40 GMT
Yes, but not as much as all the bad press and negative gossip over Manveer Heir and then the animations and ugly Sarah Ryder. Really all of that probably made it harder for reviewers to remain objective and brought scores down a few points. People have issues if heir was an issue on the games ratings. Being a racist doesn't mean one can't make good games boycotting because a company has an openly racist employee is fine I guess, but going with "I'm going to give a lower score" because ofthat really isn't valid to me. At that point they're letting personal feelings get in the way of a product that could be good.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 24, 2017 1:08:57 GMT
Yes, but not as much as all the bad press and negative gossip over Manveer Heir and then the animations and ugly Sarah Ryder. Really all of that probably made it harder for reviewers to remain objective and brought scores down a few points. Ooh, that would make for an interesting study. Does perception/press of the game prior to launch affect review scores? If there hadn't been there "Ugly Sara" and Sara's memed facial expression from her Sloane encounter and Manvier Heir and ME3 endings, would review scores have been higher?
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 24, 2017 1:44:02 GMT
Possibly but I tend to rely more on my own taste and opinions. Personally no game ever is a 10. A 10 is a perfect score and no game not even TW3 which received that score from several critics deserves that score. Hence if I think I'll like it I get it and damn the reviews.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 11:12:09 GMT
It always did, some companies tie bonuses and other incentives to high metacritic scores. Bethesda most famously did that with Fallout: New Vegas. Did Bethesda? They were only the publisher of FNV. At no moment in time did they own Obsidian. Obsidian was a third party developer and I don't see which bonusses they could have tied to FNV.
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Post by Amirit on Jul 24, 2017 11:12:40 GMT
Yes, but not as much as all the bad press and negative gossip over Manveer Heir and then the animations and ugly Sarah Ryder. Really all of that probably made it harder for reviewers to remain objective and brought scores down a few points. Ooh, that would make for an interesting study. Does perception/press of the game prior to launch affect review scores? If there hadn't been there "Ugly Sara" and Sara's memed facial expression from her Sloane encounter and Manvier Heir and ME3 endings, would review scores have been higher? Not sure how one would measure the influence, but common sense says it should be that way. You have to be brave to go against popular opinion. And in case of public media - a touch suicidal too, because it's so easy to be labeled "bought lapdogs of developers" or "spineless ass kissers" and loose audience, while flaming hate wrapped in cool sarcasm and witty remarks will sure bring you attention (and thousands extra clicks and "likes") anywhere.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 24, 2017 11:33:52 GMT
People can say what they want about Metacritic, but if EA has focus groups that predict metacritic scores, they must think that it has an effect on sales. If someone wants to know if a game is good or not, or wants to see some reviews, where are they going to go? Metacritic, all the reviews are there in one place.
So if the first thing that pops up when you hit the site is a green 90 or a yellow 72, it probably does influence peoples' perception of the game. No different than when a movie comes out and people go straight to Rotten Tomatoes and see either that rotten or fresh symbol and a score.
I've heard plenty of people say I was going to go see (insert movie) but it only got a (insert score) on rotten tomatoes, so I'm gonna wait until it hits cable. I figure the same thing happens with Metacritic, but instead of waiting for cable, its waiting until it goes on sale.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 14:01:12 GMT
People can say what they want about Metacritic, but if EA has focus groups that predict metacritic scores, they must think that it has an effect on sales. If someone wants to know if a game is good or not, or wants to see some reviews, where are they going to go? Metacritic, all the reviews are there in one place. The professional side of Metacritic is nothing but a collection of international magazine ratings. I'm not even sure if another site does something like that. On metcritic you can observe the average score a game got from the magazines.
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 24, 2017 14:04:12 GMT
It always did, some companies tie bonuses and other incentives to high metacritic scores. Bethesda most famously did that with Fallout: New Vegas. Did Bethesda? They were only the publisher of FNV. At no moment in time did they own Obsidian. Obsidian was a third party developer and I don't see which bonusses they could have tied to FNV. You would be incorrect. Also as I said, OpenCritic is a better aggregate than Metacritic, also better curated although it includes entertainment channels on it.
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Post by bigbad on Jul 24, 2017 14:09:51 GMT
While Metacritic user scores are probably always going to be mostly useless, they could be improved. Currently, the user score reported for a game is simply the average of the all the user scores (according to this FAQ). Given the large number of unwarranted 0s and 10s that many games get, switching the reported user score from the mean to the median would probably provide a somewhat better summary of what the typical score likely is.
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Post by abaris on Jul 24, 2017 14:25:13 GMT
Did Bethesda? They were only the publisher of FNV. At no moment in time did they own Obsidian. Obsidian was a third party developer and I don't see which bonusses they could have tied to FNV. You would be incorrect. Also as I said, OpenCritic is a better aggregate than Metacritic, also better curated although it includes entertainment channels on it. When I read bonus I expect it to be individual bonusses to staff, not a company bonus. So Obsidian got their pay but not a bonus tied to ratings. I'm still surprised they allowed this to happen and didn't ask to tie it to sales instead. FNV is still considered the best Fallout by many and it obviously sold and still sells. Apart from the fact that it got an 84 by the magazines and an even better rating by users. www.metacritic.com/game/pc/fallout-new-vegasIn any case, the survival of the studio obviously didn't depend on it or the cancelled project. They're doing quite well with their own projects by now.
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