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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 15:16:53 GMT
We've referenced the balance problems introduced in the latest patch here and there, but I wanted to start a more detailed discussion on the offchance Bioware still has enough staff on the MEA team to do another balance pass. Feel free to add/discuss/disagree etc. but I think we're late in getting this conversation started, so here we go.
* Overall Platinum Enemy Comp: the enemy comp in MEA Platinum is even more slanted than in ME3, leaving certain kits that excel against those enemy types (Scrapper, Avenger, etc.) much more powerful than kits which are meant to deal with other enemy types more effectively (Kineticist, Gladiator). To analogize, if vanilla was balanced around bronze and made gold a poor experience, 1.09 was balanced around gold and left Platinum a poor experience. It's not that hard with the right setups and strategies, but the kit selection feels overly narrow as a result of the enemy comps and the way kits were designed.
* Krogans, generally: the Krogan rage racial passive used to provide Krogans extra tankiness because they had a reliable means to regenerate their large health pools, while other kits didn't. This made attrition less of a factor and allowed them to withstand extra hits in every encounter. Now, Siphon weapons provide this benefit to literally every other kit, and its effectiveness dwarfs the modest regen of the Rage tree. And that's on top of the fact that it's harder to rack up a large kill streak on Platinum.
* Tanks in Platinum: for the most part, because platinum's difficulty increase was achieved by ratcheting damage to the extreme (compare to ME3 platinum), kits with abilities geared towards tanking don't really work. The one defense power that is useful is Shield Boost, and mostly because it frequently refreshes the shield gate (inb4 BW nerfs the shield gate refresh interval rather than fixing everything else). Kits with abilities like charge don't have enough tankiness to function as designed, particularly the Kroguard. As a result, players are turning to kits with cloak or stealth grid to survive by dumping aggro, which makes the experience for the non-infiltrator teammates that have to bear the aggro dump really shitty.
* Caster Classes: these are really off now. The highest damage power-based builds are all combat classes with high damage grenade powers - frag grenade, concussive shot, flak cannon. The other caster classes - Krogan Engineer, Architect, Kineticist, etc. - can't put out enough power damage (including combo damage) to outpace weapons even without any weapon passives. This was somewhat muted in gold, where spike damage was closer and spike damage was more useful, but with platinum's emphasis on sustained dps, powers need another pass overall, and the cooldown-based powers that focus on damage in particular need significant damage increases (whether from base, lower cooldowns, or higher combo damage, or preferably all three) to compete on Platinum with flak/nade spam and weapons-based builds.
* Balance of Weapon Variants: ignoring the issues regarding the loot pool and obsoleting vanilla versions of the weapons, the variants aren't at all balanced. Siphon is the best by a large margin. Unfortunately this is probably a fundamental design problem - concussive will always be marginal on Platinum because it requires enemies to be grouped closely when the host happens to kill something with a headshot, and I just don't even know why they thought bulwark would ever have a niche over Siphon. But at least BW should be aware in case they have any ideas to even them out.
As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical that any of this will ever be adjusted, but may as well put the problems on a silver platter for BW.
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 30, 2017 15:37:57 GMT
I may not always agree with you, but you made some valid points about balance being 'off' in Platinum. Caster kits aren't as effective as they are on Gold, and that's not just a L2P-issue.
And I usually don't take Concussive or Bulwark over Siphon either.
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 15:47:25 GMT
And I usually don't take Concussive or Bulwark over Siphon either. Do you ever? The only time I take a non-Siphon variant is when I don't have that variant for the specific gun I want to use, and the benefits of using that specific gun outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on Siphon. Interested in whether anyone ever intentionally chooses another variant, and why that might be the case. Right now I never would except as described above.
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Post by jadedragonmtr on Jul 30, 2017 15:53:41 GMT
And I usually don't take Concussive or Bulwark over Siphon either. Do you ever? The only time I take a non-Siphon variant is when I don't have that variant for the specific gun I want to use, and the benefits of using that specific gun outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on Siphon. Interested in whether anyone ever intentionally chooses another variant, and why that might be the case. Right now I never would except as described above. In solo games I try to take a siphon and a concussive as enemies tend to bunch up together and you can actually pop a few of them with explosions.
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 30, 2017 16:03:46 GMT
And I usually don't take Concussive or Bulwark over Siphon either. Do you ever? The only time I take a non-Siphon variant is when I don't have that variant for the specific gun I want to use, and the benefits of using that specific gun outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on Siphon. Interested in whether anyone ever intentionally chooses another variant, and why that might be the case. Right now I never would except as described above. I only use them for the exact same reasons you have. A Bulwark is always better than nothing.
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Post by islamdunk on Jul 30, 2017 16:18:22 GMT
I have an APEX rating of 9530. I haven't played Platinum so I cannot express my opinion about Platinum game balance, but I agree with everything else you said.
I want to address especially about Weapon Variants and Caster classes;
I have two major complaints about Weapon Variants.
Firstly, they should have been Weapon Mods instead of Weapons.
Currently, I am stuck at Advanced Packs because my original plan to max out Uncommon Weapon Mods is being hindered by those 30 "new" Uncommon Weapon Variants. And all of them have a maximum Rank of 10, so I need to get more than 300 Advanced Packs to absolutely get rid of them. Yes, I used the term "get rid of" because I honestly think they are rubbish, even Siphons, because they are diluting the loot pool, and I did not need them in the first place.
And how much are 300 Advanced Packs? 6,000,000 Credits, so that means 120 Gold matches. I would rather spend time with my precious family than grind 120 Gold matches just for some shiny 3D models made of cyber-pixels. That seems like a much better use of my limited life. Anyway, I am losing out potential 60 Premium Packs, or even 120 Expert Packs. I am not happy with these "new contents".
Secondly, Bulwark and Concussive are out of the league.
If Bulwark gave you guaranteed Damage Resistance regardless of allies, and then gave you extra DR based on nearby allies, then I would consider getting Bulwark. And for Concussive, I would rather have Weakspot Damage bonus and Accuracy bonus, than some unreliable, niche, potential-no-sound-bug-culprit AoE damage ability. Heck, If a player can always land a Weakspot killing blow in a shooter, then he should be working as a professional gamer for his living, not playing some game which is not very far from the verge of death.
And Siphon needs a nerf so it doesn't overshadow Krogan's Rage passive (as Shinobiwan mentioned).
Now about Caster classes.
They simply have too long recharge time to be relevant in a battle.
Most of the Tech and Biotic Powers force you to go either Damage/Duration, or Recharge Speed upgrade. So it is a choice between burst performance, or sustained performance.
If you give up Damage/Duration, then what is the point of being a Damage Caster? You need to stack every single damage bonus to be effective in higher difficulties. However if you do not select Recharge Speed, then you need to wait 8~10 seconds again to do your role you are supposed to.
Currently I upgraded all of my Engineers, Adepts to be CC supports. I just gave up on damage, and spec'd every ability into utility. The funny thing is, I get more score than when I spec'd them for damage, because CC effects such as Stun and Chill give you a good chunk of Assist score. So I just pour all of my resources into faster recharge speed.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 16:40:54 GMT
Nevertheless, I took my Batscrap into the plapex mission today, found myself in a lobby with 3 adepts and got outscored by the two with singularity...
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 16:45:19 GMT
Nevertheless, I took my Batscrap into the plapex mission and found myself in a lobby with 3 adepts and got outscored by the two with singularity... Score is mostly irrelevant - the OP is concerned primarily with the relative effectiveness of the kits/weapons overall. Scrapper will score far lower than he contributes because he gains no points from the massive armor debuff caused by Snap Freeze. Biotic effects tend to increase score with assist points etc. far in excess of the value they actually contribute, particularly in Platinum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 17:09:36 GMT
Do you ever? The only time I take a non-Siphon variant is when I don't have that variant for the specific gun I want to use, and the benefits of using that specific gun outweigh the drawbacks of missing out on Siphon. Interested in whether anyone ever intentionally chooses another variant, and why that might be the case. Right now I never would except as described above. I only use them for the exact same reasons you have. A Bulwark is always better than nothing. I'm curious as to whether the ammo priming situation ever factors into that decision. I guess I'd be hesitant to take a variant weapon into a match "just because it's there" if I expected to do much ammo priming with that weapon - though I guess the # of bullets/pellets required to prime by variant weapons varies by weapon, so...
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 17:18:30 GMT
I only use them for the exact same reasons you have. A Bulwark is always better than nothing. I'm curious as to whether the ammo priming situation ever factors into that decision. I guess I'd be hesitant to take a variant weapon into a match "just because it's there" if I expected to do much ammo priming with that weapon - though I guess the # of bullets/pellets required to prime by variant weapons varies by weapon, so... In my experience, it doesn't. Combo damage is pitiful on Platinum and not great on gold. The Siphon effect on a solid dps weapon outclasses it by a significant margin. And that's ignoring a meta shift towards Snap Freeze/Cryo Beam to handle armor that makes you want to avoid detonators generally.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 17:24:17 GMT
I'm curious as to whether the ammo priming situation ever factors into that decision. I guess I'd be hesitant to take a variant weapon into a match "just because it's there" if I expected to do much ammo priming with that weapon - though I guess the # of bullets/pellets required to prime by variant weapons varies by weapon, so... In my experience, it doesn't. Combo damage is pitiful on Platinum and not great on gold. The Siphon effect on a solid dps weapon outclasses it by a significant margin. And that's ignoring a meta shift towards Snap Freeze/Cryo Beam to handle armor that makes you want to avoid detonators generally. I agree with the utility of siphon variants - concussive and bulwark, not so much.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 17:45:50 GMT
Nevertheless, I took my Batscrap into the plapex mission and found myself in a lobby with 3 adepts and got outscored by the two with singularity... Score is mostly irrelevant - the OP is concerned primarily with the relative effectiveness of the kits/weapons overall. Scrapper will score far lower than he contributes because he gains no points from the massive armor debuff caused by Snap Freeze. Biotic effects tend to increase score with assist points etc. far in excess of the value they actually contribute, particularly in Platinum. Now that you mention it... I recently pugged a Gold match where one player scored significantly lower than the rest of the team: something like 5 - 7.5K or so over the entire match. You'd say s/he did virtually nothing by looking at that score but now I see that s/he probably contributed more to the game than the rest of us. Relatively speaking, of course...
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 30, 2017 17:59:13 GMT
And Siphon needs a nerf so it doesn't overshadow Krogan's Rage passive (as Shinobiwan mentioned). Siphon doesn't need a nerf. Both Bulwark and Concussive, as well as Krogan Rage need a significant buff.
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Post by ReptiloidGod on Jul 30, 2017 18:31:01 GMT
Especially Bulwark needs a buff, a minimum of 100 % when four teammembers are around. Concussive is quite powerful. Currently there is no reason to choose Bulwark unless it is the only variant you have.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Jul 30, 2017 18:51:20 GMT
All the variants play a part in builds. Just that with platinum still being "new" and overbearing in the damage, siphon is the most usefull. On classes like turian soldier and krogan mercenary, especially with multicapacitors, I find there really no need for vampire drain unless I go apeshyt and just absorb damage with shields. The damage reduction, althought not that noticeable, is more attractive.
Also enemies don't need to be clumped together to get a great effect from concussive weapons, they need to get "headshot" period though. I find the concussive weapons are fantastic against turrets and orbs, especially with mooks around.
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 19:07:36 GMT
All the variants play a part in builds. Just that with platinum still being "new" and overbearing in the damage, siphon is the most usefull. On classes like turian soldier and krogan mercenary, especially with multicapacitors, I find there really no need for vampire drain unless I go apeshyt and just absorb damage with shields. The damage reduction, althought not that noticeable, is more attractive. Also enemies don't need to be clumped together to get a great effect from concussive weapons, they need to get "headshot" period though. I find the concussive weapons are fantastic against turrets and orbs, especially with mooks around. I'm not following. Concussive doesn't do anything but make pretty fireworks if no other enemy is within range when the primary one dies.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Jul 30, 2017 19:22:57 GMT
All the variants play a part in builds. Just that with platinum still being "new" and overbearing in the damage, siphon is the most usefull. On classes like turian soldier and krogan mercenary, especially with multicapacitors, I find there really no need for vampire drain unless I go apeshyt and just absorb damage with shields. The damage reduction, althought not that noticeable, is more attractive. Also enemies don't need to be clumped together to get a great effect from concussive weapons, they need to get "headshot" period though. I find the concussive weapons are fantastic against turrets and orbs, especially with mooks around. I'm not following. Concussive doesn't do anything but make pretty fireworks if no other enemy is within range when the primary one dies. Siphon doesn't really do anything either if my health is full. Concussive staggers mooks and does a little damage. Never seen that as a bad thing. And in the above situation, surprisingly, the best choice would be bulwark for DR.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 19:31:24 GMT
All the variants play a part in builds. Just that with platinum still being "new" and overbearing in the damage, siphon is the most usefull. On classes like turian soldier and krogan mercenary, especially with multicapacitors, I find there really no need for vampire drain unless I go apeshyt and just absorb damage with shields. The damage reduction, althought not that noticeable, is more attractive. Also enemies don't need to be clumped together to get a great effect from concussive weapons, they need to get "headshot" period though. I find the concussive weapons are fantastic against turrets and orbs, especially with mooks around. I'm not following. Concussive doesn't do anything but make pretty fireworks if no other enemy is within range when the primary one dies. On Platinum there is an abundance of enemies who are cluttered together, no?
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 19:41:54 GMT
I'm not following. Concussive doesn't do anything but make pretty fireworks if no other enemy is within range when the primary one dies. On Platinum there is an abundance of enemies who are cluttered together, no? I'm not professing to be a Platinum expert or anything. But enemies die a lot less frequently because of increased health pools and boss spam, making on kill effects less frequent and reliable. And the damage is just a blip in in their health pools, and I'm not sure the bosses stagger at all.
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Post by islamdunk on Jul 30, 2017 19:46:42 GMT
I'm not following. Concussive doesn't do anything but make pretty fireworks if no other enemy is within range when the primary one dies. Concussive is too situational. If I had to pick a Bulwark or Concussive weapon, I would pick Bulwark. Because, 1. You can adjust the team's position, but you cannot adjust the enemy AI's position. You need to be lucky, opportunistic and have a good aim to exploit Concussive Weapons. 2. AoE damage abilities' main strength is, they do not require accuracy. You just need to launch your grenade/cobra/whatever at the general direction of enemy(ies), and it is very likely that they will deal damage. So convenience is also their key strength. However Concussive effect goes against this; you need pinpoint precision and exact damage calculation to cause a Concussive explosion, which is a stressful and hard way of dealing with swarming crowds. 3. Ally damage, environmental damage, enemy AI's priority change, CC effects, elevation etc; there are so many factors that you need to consider when trying to exploit Concussive. Meanwhile, all it takes to gain Bulwark effect is sticking to an ally. I wasn't going to mention it, but Siphon? "Shoot to heal", damaging an enemy with a weapon isn't hard. Bulwark can work even with CQC weapons; you just need to pick a frontliner, camp a good position with a team and guard a chokepoint. But Concussive Weapons only favor precision weapons. Do you REALLY use Concussive shotguns, when shotguns are supposed to target the enemy's chest? Or Concussive full-auto weapons that kick like a mule, or has an accuracy of LMG? These inaccurate weapons do not work with Concussive at all, and yet the developers decided to cram them into the loot table. I just realized that there are no Concussive Falcon, Concussive Reegar Carbine etc. I was going to blame them hard, and then thought 'Are they really that stupid?' Thank god they aren't that bad.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 20:45:43 GMT
On Platinum there is an abundance of enemies who are cluttered together, no? I'm not professing to be a Platinum expert or anything. But enemies die a lot less frequently because of increased health pools and boss spam, making on kill effects less frequent and reliable. And the damage is just a blip in in their health pools, and I'm not sure the bosses stagger at all. The damage from the concussive explosion from Concussive Weapons varies between 800 - 1,500 ( Numerical Damage Test Sheet). Platinum Health+Shields for normal enemies (not counting Berserker and Bosses) varies between 2,700 and roughly 15,000 ( Numerical Damage Test sheet). They do more than a blip, imho, even on several bosses. If anything, I personally think that what makes Concussive Weapon splosions less frequent and less reliable is you only get the splosion if you hit the bull's eye. Now, I know we're all crack shots of course...
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Post by seductivewizard on Jul 30, 2017 20:54:08 GMT
We've referenced the balance problems introduced in the latest patch here and there, but I wanted to start a more detailed discussion on the offchance Bioware still has enough staff on the MEA team to do another balance pass. Feel free to add/discuss/disagree etc. but I think we're late in getting this conversation started, so here we go. * Overall Platinum Enemy Comp: the enemy comp in MEA Platinum is even more slanted than in ME3, leaving certain kits that excel against those enemy types (Scrapper, Avenger, etc.) much more powerful than kits which are meant to deal with other enemy types more effectively (Kineticist, Gladiator). To analogize, if vanilla was balanced around bronze and made gold a poor experience, 1.09 was balanced around gold and left Platinum a poor experience. It's not that hard with the right setups and strategies, but the kit selection feels overly narrow as a result of the enemy comps and the way kits were designed. * Krogans, generally: the Krogan rage racial passive used to provide Krogans extra tankiness because they had a reliable means to regenerate their large health pools, while other kits didn't. This made attrition less of a factor and allowed them to withstand extra hits in every encounter. Now, Siphon weapons provide this benefit to literally every other kit, and its effectiveness dwarfs the modest regent of the Rage tree. * Tanks in Platinum: for the most part, because platinum's difficulty increase was achieved by ratcheting damage to the extreme (compare to ME3 platinum), kits with abilities geared towards tanking don't really work. The one defense power that is useful is Shield Boost, and mostly because it frequently refreshes the shield gate (inb4 BW nerfs the shield gate refresh interval rather than fixing everything else). Kits with abilities like charge don't have enough tankiness to function as designed, particularly the Kroguard. * Caster Classes: these are really off now. The highest damage power-based builds are all combat classes with high damage grenade powers - frag grenade, concussive shot, flak cannon. The other caster classes - Krogan Engineer, Architect, Kineticist, etc. - can't put out enough power damage (including combo damage) to outpace weapons even without any weapon passives. This was somewhat muted in gold, where spike damage was closer and spike damage was more useful, but with platinum's emphasis on sustained dps, powers need another pass overall, and the cooldown-based powers that focus on damage in particular need significant damage increases (whether from base, lower cooldowns, or higher combo damage, or preferably all three) to compete on Platinum with flak/nade spam and weapons-based builds. * Balance of Weapon Variants: ignoring the issues regarding the loot pool and obsoleting vanilla versions of the weapons, the variants aren't at all balanced. Siphon is the best by a large margin. Unfortunately this is probably a fundamental design problem - concussive will always be marginal on Platinum because it requires enemies to be grouped closely when the host happens to kill something with a headshot, and I just don't even know why they thought bulwark would ever have a niche over Siphon. But at least BW should be aware in case they have any ideas to even them out. As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical that any of this will ever be adjusted, but may as well put the problems on a silver platter for BW. 1) Krogans get the privilege of not relying on a siphon weapon and can switch more often to Bulwark or concussive weapons. In fact, they may never need it when they pair up with other krogans and are able to trigger rage constantly. Look at this post from earlier...http://bsn.boards.net/thread/12531/inspirational-merc-triplets-cover-hump 2) One doesn't need to carry a siphon weapon constantly, it is only needed to charge up your health. One has the option to carry the bulwark or concussive variant simultaneously. Once health is charged back up, switch over to the concussive variant, get the Vulnerability VI equipment (40% weakspot damage bonus), pop things in the head and constantly get 1500 area damage over a ~8 meter radius. Things are grouped together a lot in platinum. Obviously, PC players who have a easier time aiming get this benefit more than console guys. Or switch over to the bulwark weapon and hang out next to your squad (Platinum would at many instances require you to operate in pairs at the least). 3) Plenty of characters with DR boosts are very tanky. The krogan vangaurd is extremely tanky, with full rage, full DR from fortify and constant DR boost from Bastion charge. Can't think of a single time i dropped with him on my last plat game. Really not sure what the hell you're talking about. Generally, in platinum you're required to make good use of cover and make fewer mistakes. IF you're dropping too much, you should drop back to Gold and "GIT GUT" first. 4) The veteran bonuses were geared towards buffing up the casters. For instance, the Krogan engineer with double incinerate, cryo turret and rage is an extremely plat viable caster. The human adept is a extremely plat viable character. Casters do need to bring a good weapon however. Refer to this tier list. bsn.boards.net/thread/12415/platinum-tier-listAll characters on top tier and high tier in this list are perfectly viable. Even the mid-tier characters can be worked with. The human kineticist is literally the only trash character for platinum...
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 21:18:03 GMT
I'm not professing to be a Platinum expert or anything. But enemies die a lot less frequently because of increased health pools and boss spam, making on kill effects less frequent and reliable. And the damage is just a blip in in their health pools, and I'm not sure the bosses stagger at all. The damage from the concussive explosion from Concussive Weapons varies between 800 - 1,500 ( Numerical Damage Test Sheet). Platinum Health+Shields for normal enemies (not counting Berserker and Bosses) varies between 2,700 and roughly 15,000 ( Numerical Damage Test sheet). They do more than a blip, imho, even on several bosses. If anything, I personally think that what makes Concussive Weapon splosions less frequent and less reliable is you only get the splosion if you hit the bull's eye. Now, I know we're all crack shots of course... Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion.
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Post by misguidedworm7 on Jul 30, 2017 21:20:19 GMT
There are a few powers that need extra punch on platinum.
Pull - Pull does not work when everything has armor and shields. To say nothing of flying enemies. I think fixing a few upgrades could provide some extra needed utility. 5a, crushing grip, make it a warp effect that effects armored enemies, damaging and allowing them to be primed for biotic detonations.
All powers need options that are usable against enemies who are resistant to their primary effects.
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Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 21:33:21 GMT
The damage from the concussive explosion from Concussive Weapons varies between 800 - 1,500 ( Numerical Damage Test Sheet). Platinum Health+Shields for normal enemies (not counting Berserker and Bosses) varies between 2,700 and roughly 15,000 ( Numerical Damage Test sheet). They do more than a blip, imho, even on several bosses. If anything, I personally think that what makes Concussive Weapon splosions less frequent and less reliable is you only get the splosion if you hit the bull's eye. Now, I know we're all crack shots of course... Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion. Er.., no, it's actually the other way around: bosses are less abundant than low-tier mooks. That goes for all difficulties over two ME multiplayer games, btw... Are you sure you're not playing Minecraft?
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