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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 21:51:26 GMT
Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion. Er.., no, it's actually the other way around: bosses are less abundant than low-tier mooks. That goes for all difficulties over two ME multiplayer games, btw... Are you sure you're not playing Minecraft? Are you seriously trying to argue that plat doesn't have a much higher concentration of boss type enemies than the other difficulties? I don't really need to say anything beyond confirming that's your position - anyone who's ever played the mode knows that to be the case.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 22:01:14 GMT
Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion. Er.., no, it's actually the other way around: bosses are less abundant than low-tier mooks. That goes for all difficulties over two ME multiplayer games, btw... Are you sure you're not playing Minecraft? Are you seriously trying to argue that plat doesn't have a much higher concentration of boss type enemies than the other difficulties? Are you for real?
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 22:03:35 GMT
Er.., no, it's actually the other way around: bosses are less abundant than low-tier mooks. That goes for all difficulties over two ME multiplayer games, btw... Are you sure you're not playing Minecraft? Are you seriously trying to argue that plat doesn't have a much higher concentration of boss type enemies than the other difficulties? Are you for real? Read more closely. RARER. As in, rarer than in lower difficulties. Are you disputing that, yes or no?
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 30, 2017 22:08:25 GMT
Er.., no, it's actually the other way around: bosses are less abundant than low-tier mooks. That goes for all difficulties over two ME multiplayer games, btw... Are you sure you're not playing Minecraft? Are you seriously trying to argue that plat doesn't have a much higher concentration of boss type enemies than the other difficulties? Are you for real? It probably depends on whether Berserkers can be considered as a boss type...
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 30, 2017 22:13:44 GMT
It probably depends on whether Berserkers can be considered as a boss type... Berserkers don't have 2700 health. If only.
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Post by Transcended One on Jul 30, 2017 22:14:50 GMT
It probably depends on whether Berserkers can be considered as a boss type... Berserkers don't have 2700 health. If only. We can always dream
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 22:28:45 GMT
Read more closely. RARER. As in, rarer than in lower difficulties. Are you disputing that, yes or no? Well it's obvious I didn't dispute that yet and I'm not going to do that now, since I don't have any data at hand. I'll see what I can dig up though...
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Post by Scathane on Jul 30, 2017 22:33:40 GMT
It probably depends on whether Berserkers can be considered as a boss type... Yeah, they start around 20K on plat. I did sort of chuck them in with the bosses...
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Post by pheabus2005 on Jul 30, 2017 22:56:49 GMT
Agreed with some of the points OP made, especially on the power classes and weapon variants.
My 2cents on weapon variants rebalancing:
Siphon weapons are fine as they are, but the priming issue needs to be fixed, even if this is intended, the trade-off is just too high, let's say 2X ammo to prime instead of 5X, this should be applied to other 2 variants as well.
Concussive weapons' mechanic needs to be reworked: if you headshot an enemy and that enemy dies within 3 seconds, creates a biotic explosion, this should more or less mitigate the off-host headshot issue, which we all know BioWare will never be able/willing to fix.
Bulwark weapons should grant a constant 5%-10% DR (from rank I to X) once equipped (even when you are alone), with each teammate nearby provides extra 5% DR, to make it a viable option compared to the other 2 variants.
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Post by misguidedworm7 on Jul 31, 2017 8:18:38 GMT
I think the core of the Scathane-Sinobiwan debate is perception.
There are more low level enemies in absolute terms on platinum, but there are fewer proportionately. 20 grunts and 5 bosses versus 25 grunts and 10 bosses. (assuming beserkers are bosses)
It's relevant. But at the same time the amount of damage you can deal to the bosses by killing all the mooks in proximity is dramatically less impact-full.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Jul 31, 2017 13:44:11 GMT
The damage from the concussive explosion from Concussive Weapons varies between 800 - 1,500 ( Numerical Damage Test Sheet). Platinum Health+Shields for normal enemies (not counting Berserker and Bosses) varies between 2,700 and roughly 15,000 ( Numerical Damage Test sheet). They do more than a blip, imho, even on several bosses. If anything, I personally think that what makes Concussive Weapon splosions less frequent and less reliable is you only get the splosion if you hit the bull's eye. Now, I know we're all crack shots of course... Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion. I believe your seeing things from a very odd perspective, concussive is the BEST option vs bosses in MEAMP. Turrets are 100% weakpoint (headshot) And destroyer core imo is the easiest to hit out of all. And each time they die, there is a biotic explosion. Same thing with acendents orb, you can't "not" hit the weakpoint. And yes the damage is after the death of the orb which hits the acendant and everything beside him. I'm not looking for low tier enemies in platinum for concussive shot, i'm looking for weakpoints. Only 2 bosses that are inconsistent are hydra and fiends. I don't think people take the time to realize what they are doing, but only time siphon would be a better is if there are absolutely NO enemies within explosion range. You have less than 50% health Only time bulwark would be better is You are actively being shot at while your firing. Your character has enough shields/health to withstand enemy fire. You get a mini-explosion for every weakpoint kill, even if it was 100 damage, thats 100 less damage you have to do to kill a group of enemies. If an entire squad is using concussive weapons and getting even 50% headshot kills on every enemy... lol you do the math, that shyt adds up. Siphon is greater, if your not so good at staying alive... and bulwark is greater only if you have means to make use of DR, be it heavy health or teamates nearby. But, concussive is the only means of additional killing. tl;dr what are your other options really?
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Post by JRandall0308 on Jul 31, 2017 14:01:17 GMT
OP was excellent so the only thing I will add is the following. Here is a discussion comparing maximum power damage output to maximum gun damage output. TL; DR: guns are way, way better. (Also FWIW this question is on the list to ask in Twitchy Questioning.) Also has anyone done math comparisons like: * Gold enemy HP vs. guns DPS, and then Platinum same comparison * Gold enemy DPS vs. Player HP, and then Platinum same comparison Also do we know actual wave composition for Platinum? Would be useful to be able to say it is X% armor compared to Gold which is only Y% armor.
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Post by Scathane on Jul 31, 2017 14:56:00 GMT
I think the core of the Scathane-Sinobiwan debate is perception. There are more low level enemies in absolute terms on platinum, but there are fewer proportionately. 20 grunts and 5 bosses versus 25 grunts and 10 bosses. (assuming beserkers are bosses) It's relevant. But at the same time the amount of damage you can deal to the bosses by killing all the mooks in proximity is dramatically less impact-full. Well, I just misinterpreted one of shinobiwan 's posts. I would like to get more info on wave composition/budget but there isn't a lot out there, it seems. Technically, Berserkers aren't bosses because there's a Berserker Boss. I did count them as such in the post above, since they have more than ~15K Health/Shields. But, as stated, I'd like to get some info on wave budget first before I dare say anything about it, really...
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 31, 2017 15:17:48 GMT
Low tier enemies are much rarer in plat - it's much more saturated with boss types that have more than 50k health or armor. And the low tier enemies are usually what you're using to pop the explosion. I believe your seeing things from a very odd perspective, concussive is the BEST option vs bosses in MEAMP. Turrets are 100% weakpoint (headshot) And destroyer core imo is the easiest to hit out of all. And each time they die, there is a biotic explosion. Same thing with acendents orb, you can't "not" hit the weakpoint. And yes the damage is after the death of the orb which hits the acendant and everything beside him. I'm not looking for low tier enemies in platinum for concussive shot, i'm looking for weakpoints. Only 2 bosses that are inconsistent are hydra and fiends. I don't think people take the time to realize what they are doing, but only time siphon would be a better is if there are absolutely NO enemies within explosion range. You have less than 50% health Only time bulwark would be better is You are actively being shot at while your firing. Your character has enough shields/health to withstand enemy fire. You get a mini-explosion for every weakpoint kill, even if it was 100 damage, thats 100 less damage you have to do to kill a group of enemies. If an entire squad is using concussive weapons and getting even 50% headshot kills on every enemy... lol you do the math, that shyt adds up. Siphon is greater, if your not so good at staying alive... and bulwark is greater only if you have means to make use of DR, be it heavy health or teamates nearby. But, concussive is the only means of additional killing. tl;dr what are your other options really? Ehh, disagree. The lifesteal on Siphon ramps up so much that it makes a major difference in firefights after 3 kills. I've survived many skirmishes where the lifesteal kept my alive while constantly under fire such that normal regen didn't kick in. And I'm not following your other point - Siphon will top off your health from 50-100% where you'd typically only regen up to 50%. Point taken that concussive is the only offensive option in a mode where dps is the most important stat. But I'm not seeing how 1-2 explosions at 70% damage or whatever over the entirety of the boss's lifespan compares to siphon's benefits overall. And for ascendants, it's the orb that's the issue - once it goes down the ascendant melts pretty quick with the right builds and focus fire.
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Post by konfeta on Aug 1, 2017 7:37:01 GMT
Biotic Power damage is still way too low given it's cooldowns and redbar only CC status. It either needs dramatically higher damage or much lower cooldowns. I like a cooldown focused buff more to differentiate it from tech/combat powers.
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Post by Transcended One on Aug 1, 2017 7:37:08 GMT
We can always try to compile a Platinum wave composition ourselves.
It might be easier to record the kill-feed. It would also be nice to know how the 'pool'-size is.
What we know is on non-Outlaw matches, there's always 2 Berserkers at the same time every wave apparently. Respawning in your face as soon as one of the dies. But how often do they respawn? Does Platinum have a wave budget similar to ME3MP's?
Oh and shitload of Saboteurs on certain waves...
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Post by Scathane on Aug 1, 2017 10:58:56 GMT
We can always try to compile a Platinum wave composition ourselves. It might be easier to record the kill-feed. It would also be nice to know how the 'pool'-size is. What we know is on non-Outlaw matches, there's always 2 Berserkers at the same time every wave apparently. Respawning in your face as soon as one of the dies. But how often do they respawn? Does Platinum have a wave budget similar to ME3MP's? Oh and shitload of Saboteurs on certain waves... Everyone seems to agree there is a wave budget as well as premade spawns (so, for instance, Berserkers always appear per two). Without a tool, I think it's very hard work to try and find out the Wave Budget: I mean, we could play game after game and write down which enemies we got, but before we get an absolute number out of that, we'd be umpteen years further due to the possibilities in filling a wave budget with different combinations of enemies...
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Post by mrfuddyduddy on Aug 1, 2017 12:13:28 GMT
I may not always agree with you, but you made some valid points about balance being 'off' in Platinum. Caster kits aren't as effective as they are on Gold, and that's not just a L2P-issue. And I usually don't take Concussive or Bulwark over Siphon either. βββ This, other than reducing the Cool Downs of some abilities to make them more spammy I don't really know what else could be done that wouldn't make every class ridiculously OP on Gold and under, which is kind of already the case. I would rather them make all characters more tanky in general than buff skills more, I mean compared to ME3 the tankiest class in this game is like a quarter as tanky as some of the guys we had access to in ME3. Geth Soldier + Fortification + Stronghold Package could sustain something like 4200/2800 points worth of shield and health damage before going down, put on a Cyclonic Modulator IV and you were basically unkillable. Tankiest big boy in Andromeda has like 300 shields and 750 health, what kind of BS is that??? Personally I feel only a few skills need tweaking, Flame Thrower still feels rather weak at least compared to how absurd it was in ME3. I do also feel that veteran ranks need an overhaul to effect either classes differently or each character individually, because having a melee bonus benefits almost no one. Tech Power bonuses do not effect Constructs, nor do we have construct based bonuses on equipment. Why is that? Bulwark and Concussive both need huge changes Bulwark at rank I should provide at least 80DR when near the other 3 members of your team, going all the way up to 120, make it worth using. (This is 40% to 55% damage mitigation) Concussive, get rid of the headshots and make it a percentage chance when that weapon kills a target to cause a detonation, this damage should be whatever the Biotic Combo damage is and the percentage chance for a detonation should increase with rank. Starting at like 30% going up to 50%
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 1, 2017 13:35:02 GMT
I'm pessimistic they will ever do anything about this.
ME3 had the same problem: Platinum was an Armor + boss-fest from the get-go. To the best of my recollection, that never changed.
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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 1, 2017 13:40:37 GMT
I'm pessimistic they will ever do anything about this. ME3 had the same problem: Platinum was an Armor + boss-fest from the get-go. To the best of my recollection, that never changed. But I thought caster classes like the fury, Valkyrie etc. worked fine because BEs had high enough base damage (and good multipliers) to be a primary damage source. Flamer also toasted enemies well and could put out really nice damage on Platinum. Even ignoring that CC powers are worse at CCing than some damage powers, MEA is behind on this.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 1, 2017 13:44:56 GMT
Ah, I should have clarified: I'm pessimistic Bioware will ever adjust Platinum wave composition.
They might adjust Biotic powers. I think that is unlikely, but less unlikely (= more likely) than them adjusting Platinum wave composition.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 18:05:09 GMT
We can always try to compile a Platinum wave composition ourselves. It might be easier to record the kill-feed. It would also be nice to know how the 'pool'-size is. What we know is on non-Outlaw matches, there's always 2 Berserkers at the same time every wave apparently. Respawning in your face as soon as one of the dies. But how often do they respawn? Does Platinum have a wave budget similar to ME3MP's? Oh and shitload of Saboteurs on certain waves... BioWare's dedication to keeping players duly and properly staggered is truly impressive.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 1, 2017 18:07:09 GMT
BioWare's dedication to keeping players duly and properly staggered is truly impressive. Indeed. I've said it before: someone at Bioware *really* doesn't want those pesky players to be able to do anything fun.
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