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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 10, 2017 18:41:02 GMT
reddit summary redd.it/6sv0csMultiplayer Livestream Summary - 10 August 2017 (self.MECoOp) submitted 36 minutes ago * by The_hezyPC/hezekiah957/MDT[F] After a 2-month(!) absence, here I am again. Huge thanks to /u/jrandall0308 for stepping up while I've been away. Has he been reminding people about the greatest moment in the history of the game? Bastiaan and Benoit running things today, Benoit will be joined in-game by Starbuck, SizeSixteens and LadyInsanity New gear, Omni-Capacitors and Hydraulic Joints, in the store Starting things off with the Roadside Assistance mission, Silver on Derelict facing off against the Remnant. Discussed character color for Benoit's Krogan in this first match. Not still the Edmonton Oilers color scheme, but very close. This silver mission has a higher-than-normal concentration of Progenitor enemies, first showing up during the first Objective wave (Priority Targets) on Wave 2. Talked about how a couple of their squad members were involved in the development process, as part of Bioware's Game Changers program. Coming on-site to try beta versions, provide feedback, etc. A Windows message about out-of-date virus protection popped up during the Wave 6 Retrieval objective. Twitch chat responded appropriately. The squad fully extracted from their warmup match, which I guess is a good sign. And they've got their excuses locked and loaded for the slaughter to come. Benoit managed to top the scoreboard for their silver match, which is nice. Before jumping into the platinum match, discussed what to expect. Today's Apex mission has the Glass Jaw modifier, and coupled with Platinum removing shieldgate entirely means DON'T GET PUNCHED On to platinum! Stream team set up an overlay to show the death counter, as Benoit inevitably repeatedly tastes the floor. First Benoit death, wave 1. They've got a sound clip for it as well as a large skull that pops into existence in the middle of the screen Moving on to wave 2, they're pretty focused on the gameplay and not doling out other random info nuggets. Wave 2 brings a Recovery objective... and death number 2... and death number 3... and death number 4... and death number 5... Benoit didn't contribute to the recovery at all, just running around and dying. Reminds me of a few people I've played with... Wave 3 starts, and not long after we get the 6th death. Benoit rezzes himself, and then gets death 7. And 8. And 9. A Berserker melee brings with it death 10, as Bastiaan is busy quoting A Flock of Seagulls. Death 11 comes moments after Benoit rezzes a teammate. Probably a worthwhile trade. Death 12, not so much; he got caught on some random corner. I hope they're not paying for that voice clip per use. Death 13 comes while Benoit is still trying to find a safe spot after his last revive. He gets rezzed and finds cover, but a Berserker flanks him and leads to deaths 14 and 15. They've limped on to wave 4, 13 minutes into the game. It's Devices, and death 16 happened just after a teammate completed the first of 4. Once again, the other players carry the day and complete the objective themselves. "Benoit, please make a Twitter." "I have a twitter, and I'm not telling you what it is!" Wave 5 starts out with them claiming the death counter is wrong. He's been knocked down 16 times, but hasn't died. Kappa Bastiaan called death 17 moments before it happened. Benoit gelled, and was able to revive SizeSixteens before experiencing death 18. Hey, we're legal now! One more gel use, and then death 19 on wave 5 leads to a full wipe. Benoit ended up in second place, and everyone got a revive medal (gold for size and lady, bronze for Benoit and starbuck) "We're not done with platinum, obviously". Them's arc words, folks! Let's see what happens next week, next week. For now, here's the Twitch VOD of today's stream if you want to relive the mass of deaths. Edit: check the comments for Matobar's collection of questions answered by @bioware and DiscoBabaloo in twitch chat. Not a whole lot of concrete info this time around, but some nuggets that you're free to read into as you please. disagree with your Reddit comment. They basically dodged every question asked with non-answers. Stands in stark contrast with the acknowledgements they were giving when the game first released.
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Post by angrybobh on Aug 10, 2017 18:46:24 GMT
Thanks JRandall0308 for being our (un?)official ambassador from the unofficial forums.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 10, 2017 18:48:43 GMT
OK finally getting around to reading my own thread. Twitch Prime Twitch Prime Musikfreak007: I will say this @bioware , the sheer amount of unlocks has caused me to not play with 17 weapons and 4 kits at this point despite having put in 65 hours+ in MP. I'm curious what the pool of unlocks looks like across your player base. DiscoBabaloo (i understand if that info cannot be shared) DiscoBabaloo: @musikfreak007 depends on player style, lots of players chase 'breadth' (collect everything), but there's others who stick to a few (to the point of not even opening reward packs etc anymore). in terms of adding items to pool though, we see players running out of (new) things and that's one of the biggest drivers for players leaving - i guess getting bored with whats there. does that help? A few thoughts: (1) 65 hours? I'm all for repeatedly making the point that variants bloated the manifest and some unlocks take too long, but someone who just started isn't gonna make that point with a lot of force. (2) WTF is he talking about re the idea that some players "chase 'breadth'" and others "stick to a few" [regarding unlocking content]? Does he not know how the unlock system works in his own game? Aside from rarity we have absolutely no control over what we unlock. (3) Do they legitimately believe: (a) a lack of content is driving people away at a higher rate than manifest bloat; and ( that almost strictly-cosmetic variants of existing weapons was the solution to that problem rather than actual new content? (1) Yeah that 65 hour comment was terrible. I certainly would have edited that out. This is why amateurs... oh wait I made that joke already upstream. (2) "Does he not know how the unlock system works in his own game?" Quite possibly - no he does not. 100% dead serious. Bioware has demonstrated time and again they do not know how their own game works. (See also my joke comment in the Twitch that WE WISH that Barricade had i-frames, and then Benoit thought it DID have i-frames.) I sympathize because in any software product made with lack of good engineering practices (*cough* ATDD / BDD *cough*) you will never know how it actually works. I don't know how the software that I work on, actually works, for certain. (3) (a) Quite possibly yes. You might think this is implausible but it's actually completely plausible. Plus Bioware has the data and we don't. ( This I can't answer. But Siphon at least is a game-changing variant. They may have thought Bulwark and Concussive would be as well -- in fact those are just some buffs away from being game-changing variants. In other words they may have tried, but failed, to make 3 game-changers (made only 1, though). Uggh, no. It's not because the packs were dropping boosters instead of Rank VII bulwark weapons that people were/are leaving. It's because you release like one new kit and gun a month and that's not enough to hold anyone's interest, especially when that kit is all reused powers and generally isn't interesting or effective. Again, we don't know why people were leaving if they were leaving. I can completely believe some people believe when they stop regularly unlocking things. Re: 'one new kit a month', I've repeatedly shown that MEA is almost exactly on pace with ME3 content, it's just being released piecemeal instead of in packages. Maybe this is working, maybe it isn't. No no no, no. He's asking you to rebalance some of the guns to make them actually play differently, not add another 30 variations to each gun. Fuck. I was sufficiently concerned about this that I Tweeted Fernando: What the fuck is he talking about? They've created a grand total of what, three new powers, and one hasn't even been released yet? That's clearly not what's holding up the kits, unless they keep trying to make new powers and keep failing to make them work. Apparently yes? For whatever reason their new framework seems to hold them back from introducing the wild new things we saw in ME3. Either that are they are being very, very conservative. Probably both. Benoit on today's twitch stream, before playing a Glass Jaw Platinum Apex mission (@26min mark): 'No word of a lie Bastiaan, no exaggeration, I'm pretty certain this combination means that any melee attack will kill any character instantly'. Wrong! Some characters in MEA:MP have the second chance perk. #stillclueless Another example of how they don't understand their own game, although this one is a little more forgiveable. I'm sure he meant "instantly lethal unless you have an exception to get out of jail free" - of course.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 10, 2017 18:51:04 GMT
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 10, 2017 20:45:47 GMT
OK I'm wired on mango iced teach from lunch, plus I grinded for coins to get some packs in Magic Duels Origins (yes I know it's discontinued, shuddup) and got both Nissa *and* her Oath for my Superfriends deck... wait what game-board is this again?
Oh yeah: MEAMP.
Stream of consciousness thoughts...
I am *astonished* at how many questions Fernando Melo (DiscoBabaloo) is able to give quality answers to in the Twitch chat. The man is a machine and we should be incredibly grateful to him.
However, I do wish there was some kind of vetting process for the asking of the questions. Like take a page from an investor call and mute everyone except the people whose questions have been queued through the investor relations / PR guy. If only Bioware had a Community Manager... oh wait... they do... in name only maybe.
Can we let the 'Pleas For Mercy' drop now? It seems Bioware is well aware of the pleas from us / reddit / randos on Twitch.
Didn't get to ask as many 'Enemy Behavior' questions as I wanted to, and suspect the answer to all of them is going to be 'looking at it as part of balancing.'
Am involved in some kind of reddit slapfight with one of the mouth-breathers over there who hates the game and is angry about everything. I dunno why I engage with these people because it's probably hurting my 'rep' but I just can't stand to see bullshit being spewed without counter-punching.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 12:51:28 GMT
I agree that PFM can be safely outsourced & ty for asking all the questions.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 13:30:44 GMT
I want to call out the following answer because I think it's really interesting.
me: Enemies continue to spawn behind players. Not our imagination nor being flanked. Feels unfair and makes smart map control impossible. Will you please revisit?
Fernando: part of the arena map setup (and spawning trying not to do things like pop enemies out of no where in front of you), so it will pick spawn points that are away (or that player is not facing)
I believe this is essentially the same as how ME3 spawns worked and I think it has a couple of implications.
(1) We should be able to control spawns, to some extent, by occupying ground and facing certain directions. It's not as easy in MEA because the maps are much bigger and seem to have more spawn points.
But, for example, this is why camping Firebase Zero is so effective: you block the spawn near the crate and you force spawns at the LZ (far away) or inside the room to the left (out of your LOS).
(2) Stuff *will* spawn behind you ("player is not facing" that direction) so we need to learn to deal with it. Checking your six should become a reflex in this game like it was in ME3. Unfortunately we don't have Geth Scanner to make the six-checking easier....
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 11, 2017 13:50:25 GMT
So did they answer these? Pretty Good Gaming Youtube Channel said Montreal is totally closed down.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 13:52:46 GMT
Dammit, not you too, SMR!
BW Montreal was merged with EA Motive. I don't consider that "shut down" but whatever.
Anyway Edmonton is the studio handling MEA ongoing support and doing the Twitch streams.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 11, 2017 14:00:51 GMT
Dammit, not you too, SMR! o/
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 16:31:16 GMT
Interesting info from Bastiaan on reddit regarding variant weapon drops.
Need the context first:
I leave it to someone smarter than me to determine if this it the definitive answer we wanted.
And with that it's time to make the next thread! Gotta find a #15 book title to make a play on.
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Post by crashsuit on Aug 11, 2017 18:14:20 GMT
And with that it's time to make the next thread! Gotta find a #15 book title to make a play on. The 15th Xanth book is titled "The Color of Her Panties", if that helps.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 18:16:45 GMT
Missed opportunity for sure. Edit for crashsuitThe Question of Her Panties The Twitch of Her Panties The Question of Her Twitch The Twitch of Her Question The Color of Her Twitch <-- LOL IRL at this one
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Post by Transcended One on Aug 11, 2017 18:28:38 GMT
Interesting info from Bastiaan on reddit regarding variant weapon drops. Need the context first: I leave it to someone smarter than me to determine if this it the definitive answer we wanted.
And with that it's time to make the next thread! Gotta find a #15 book title to make a play on. It's probably this: Using Expert pack's rare slot as an example: -1st: rarity roll: Rare or Ultra Rare (chance for the latter is ofcourse smaller) -2nd: pool roll: -Basic weapon -Character -Basic mod -Weapon Variety As said Variant Weapon has a smaller chance. Dunno what's the chance with mods, since IMHO it should be the same as basic weapon and character s.
What he meant by 'fallback' is that once the Basic Weapon pool has been dried out for example, it falls back to Variant Weapons (instead of getting only characters instead).Or did I make it unnecessarily complicated?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 18:34:48 GMT
Dammit, not you too, SMR! BW Montreal was merged with EA Motive. I don't consider that "shut down" but whatever. Anyway Edmonton is the studio handling MEA ongoing support and doing the Twitch streams.
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Post by angrybobh on Aug 11, 2017 18:41:54 GMT
I believe this is essentially the same as how ME3 spawns worked and I think it has a couple of implications. (1) We should be able to control spawns, to some extent, by occupying ground and facing certain directions. It's not as easy in MEA because the maps are much bigger and seem to have more spawn points. In ME3 the area around you that denied a spawn was much bigger and the LOS denial was strictly enforced. I know that the dev response was "well it works that way" but, I really don't think they know. I, just yesterday, watched two assemblers spawn in front of me at about 10-15 meters away. Did you know that enemies can start firing at you while they are in the process of spawning in? Yeah, that's fun. I think future questioning on this subject should include "Have you actually tested the spawning code to see if it even functions the way you think it does?".
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 18:57:53 GMT
Even in ME3 you would sometimes get spawns right in front of you. Seemingly less often but of course I don't have any data to back that up.
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Post by akots on Aug 11, 2017 19:04:13 GMT
It's probably this: Using Expert pack's rare slot as an example: -1st: rarity roll: Rare or Ultra Rare (chance for the latter is ofcourse smaller) -2nd: pool roll: -Basic weapon -Character -Basic mod -Weapon Variety As said Variant Weapon has a smaller chance. Dunno what's the chance with mods, since IMHO it should be the same as basic weapon and character s.
What he meant by 'fallback' is that once the Basic Weapon pool has been dried out for example, it falls back to Variant Weapons (instead of getting only characters instead).Or did I make it unnecessarily complicated? It probably goes the other way around. Otherwise, will be hard to implement pity timer. 0: set condition based on what cards are missing and apply unknown modifier to all rolls based on this. For example, if you have all rare characters maxed and buy reserve pack, chance for rare weapons or variants is increased proportionally (or not proportionally). It is unknown. 1st roll: depending on pack type, class of card is determined (weapon, character, mod, variant, consumable) 2nd roll: depending on pack type, rarity is determined (ultrare, rare, consumable or uncommon character or weapon/variant for reserve/arsenal/premium packs, for example, all based on 0 roll and unknown modifier); pity timer is also here 3rd roll: specific card is determined from the list of missing cards that player does not have for weapons, variants and characters. And consumables are probably just a random thing from the whole list. However, this does not explain why some people get a lot of weapon variants from reserve packs, like me. While normal rare weapons are mostly ignored. Looks like there is some type of bugged weighting going on. Or maybe, it is just messed up code. And yes, it is complicated, there are quite a lot of steps here.
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Post by angrybobh on Aug 11, 2017 19:05:51 GMT
Even in ME3 you would sometimes get spawns right in front of you. Seemingly less often but of course I don't have any data to back that up. I played ME3MP for more than 1000 hours and I have never seen that. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen but, you could pretty much count on it not happening. In MEAMP I see it all the time. On a side note. Do you think spawning behavior and enemy AI should be different question categories? They seem to me like two different issues.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 19:07:11 GMT
Strangely a Whale-friendly scheme like 'pay 1Unit_RealMoney or 100Units_InGameCredits for X item' would be much simpler to implement!
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 19:10:04 GMT
Even in ME3 you would sometimes get spawns right in front of you. Seemingly less often but of course I don't have any data to back that up. (1) I played ME3MP for more than 1000 hours and I have never seen that. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen but, you could pretty much count on it not happening. In MEAMP I see it all the time. (2) On a side note. Do you think spawning behavior and enemy AI should be different question categories? They seem to me like two different issues. (1) You've seen it; they just hid it better in ME3. Cerberus jet-booting down from the ceiling in front of you? That's a spawn. Very commonly seen on Glacier because of how small the map is. You can also sometimes catch Hydras Atlases or Primes appearing out of thin air in front of you when spawn nuking on Glacier, Jade, Goddess.... (2) I guess? The categories are pretty arbitrary (decided upon by... me!) just to make the voting easier. We could do a card sort on category titles if you like!
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Post by Transcended One on Aug 11, 2017 19:49:44 GMT
It's probably this: Using Expert pack's rare slot as an example: -1st: rarity roll: Rare or Ultra Rare (chance for the latter is ofcourse smaller) -2nd: pool roll: -Basic weapon -Character -Basic mod -Weapon Variety As said Variant Weapon has a smaller chance. Dunno what's the chance with mods, since IMHO it should be the same as basic weapon and character s.
What he meant by 'fallback' is that once the Basic Weapon pool has been dried out for example, it falls back to Variant Weapons (instead of getting only characters instead).Or did I make it unnecessarily complicated? It probably goes the other way around. Otherwise, will be hard to implement pity timer. 0: set condition based on what cards are missing and apply unknown modifier to all rolls based on this. For example, if you have all rare characters maxed and buy reserve pack, chance for rare weapons or variants is increased proportionally (or not proportionally). It is unknown. 1st roll: depending on pack type, class of card is determined (weapon, character, mod, variant, consumable) 2nd roll: depending on pack type, rarity is determined (ultrare, rare, consumable or uncommon character or weapon/variant for reserve/arsenal/premium packs, for example, all based on 0 roll and unknown modifier); pity timer is also here 3rd roll: specific card is determined from the list of missing cards that player does not have for weapons, variants and characters. And consumables are probably just a random thing from the whole list. However, this does not explain why some people get a lot of weapon variants from reserve packs, like me. While normal rare weapons are mostly ignored. Looks like there is some type of bugged weighting going on. Or maybe, it is just messed up code. And yes, it is complicated, there are quite a lot of steps here I just tried to translate what the guy said in vain of making it better understandable. You added bits of speculation there. Sure Arsenal and Reserve packs should increase the odds of one of the respective pools. And pity timer is an easy function call, probably the least complicated thing of the entire 'script' they've running when opening packs. Premium packs seem to work as 'intended' for me. Like 1 out of 5 weapons is a variant. I can't speak for Reserve packs though, since I never opened them.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 11, 2017 20:25:01 GMT
I would like to believe they regularly (or even ad-hoc) query the 'player manifest database' to see if actual drops are matching expectations... oh Hell who am I kidding.
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Post by crashsuit on Aug 11, 2017 20:53:45 GMT
Even in ME3 you would sometimes get spawns right in front of you. Seemingly less often but of course I don't have any data to back that up. I played ME3MP for more than 1000 hours and I have never seen that. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen but, you could pretty much count on it not happening. In MEAMP I see it all the time. On a side note. Do you think spawning behavior and enemy AI should be different question categories? They seem to me like two different issues. On Glacier, at the beginning of wave 11, I usually try to block the lower spawns for at least the first half of the wave. I don't have any video of this handy but countless times I've had pugs block the rest of the spawns enough that the game is forced to pop enemies in right in front of players. Some mooks and elites jet down from the upper railing but the bosses and other big units just pop right in while I'm watching. Similarly, on Rio I sometimes try to block the spawns at the extraction side, but sometimes I'll take too long getting to the back corner and enemies will just pop right in when I'm a few feet away. Edit: There's also all the times on Jade when I positioned myself at the lower back corner in the semi-open room so I could target the fresh spawns I could see pop in across from me on the back stairs in the opposite corner. Seems to me like ME3MP tries to spawn out of view of players, but will do it anyways if it doesn't have any other choice.
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April 2017
angrybobh
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by angrybobh on Aug 11, 2017 22:48:37 GMT
On Glacier, at the beginning of wave 11, I usually try to block the lower spawns for at least the first half of the wave. I don't have any video of this handy but countless times I've had pugs block the rest of the spawns enough that the game is forced to pop enemies in right in front of players. Some mooks and elites jet down from the upper railing but the bosses and other big units just pop right in while I'm watching. Similarly, on Rio I sometimes try to block the spawns at the extraction side, but sometimes I'll take too long getting to the back corner and enemies will just pop right in when I'm a few feet away. Edit: There's also all the times on Jade when I positioned myself at the lower back corner in the semi-open room so I could target the fresh spawns I could see pop in across from me on the back stairs in the opposite corner. Seems to me like ME3MP tries to spawn out of view of players, but will do it anyways if it doesn't have any other choice. The only alternative would be to not spawn them at all. So, that is totally forgivable. The jumping down from the balcony(or ceiling on reactor) or up from an unseen ledge(LZ on white) is a nice way to spawn enemies closer to the players and have it not feel unfair. You also have a chance to knock them off the ledge or shoot them while they were jumping down(like FB giant when they spawned on the center beam). Enemy spawns had some vertical ability in ME3 that MEAMP spawns don't seem to have. Which is really strange because the jumping dogs and retarded jetpacks were supposed to add to the verticle element.
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