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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 14, 2017 13:27:32 GMT
(I received permission from Bastiaan to share this publicly.) Several weeks ago (31 July 2017) Bastiaan Frank (MEA Lead Designer) posted that Variant Weapons (Bulwark, Concussive, Siphon) have "a very small (less than 10%) chance to drop a variant IF you have rank 10 guns" [ source]. It was never entirely clear to me what this meant. A couple of days ago (12 August 2017) he expanded upon that in another post on reddit. [ source] But I was still confused, and I like specification by example, so I asked some specific questions and got some specific answers. [source is private reddit messages that I received permission to share] This certainly clarifies how Variant Weapon drops work. Hope this helps everyone understand how things work. Thanks Bastiaan!
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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 14, 2017 14:05:25 GMT
I'm sorry, I can't get past the tone of this thread.
JRandall, you're not a Bioware insider with whom the devs would share confidential information of any sort. If they're telling you, whether via PM or not, the expectation is that the info will likely go public.
I'm sure you'll say something like 'it's proper manners to ask someone for permission to share a PM conversation, and I merely stated that fact in the OP,' but it's clear what you're really trying to do, and it's really annoying.
Also, this info was obvious from the explanation they gave in the Reddit thread....
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Post by dragonmebalz on Aug 14, 2017 14:26:41 GMT
There is a key piece of insight in this reply on how the devs view a key part of the game in my opinion: "...Usually I prefer not do get into the details too much, takes away a bit of the magic..."
Magic is how you explain biotics and the other such things in the game.
A key element in the progression of the game is not magic. Some of us and perhaps many of us are customers. It seems only fair we understand in plain and simple language the system that expects us to invest our time and or money in the product.
Kudos to JRandall for how he handled this situation. The devs may want keep some of the game behind the curtain but there certainly is an argument to be made that other elements should be transparent and readily available to the playerbase. This is good example of the latter.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 14, 2017 14:28:11 GMT
I'm sorry, I can't get past the tone of this thread. JRandall, you're not a Bioware insider with whom the devs would share confidential information of any sort. If they're telling you, whether via PM or not, the expectation is that the info will likely go public. I'm sure you'll say something like 'it's proper manners to ask someone for permission to share a PM conversation, and I merely stated that fact in the OP,' but it's clear what you're really trying to do, and it's really annoying. Also, this info was obvious from the explanation they gave in the Reddit thread.... You're reading the tone into it. I never claimed to be an insider and yes, it *is* polite to get permission before sharing a private message or email. The info was not obvious to me, which is why I asked for clarification. And if I was confused, maybe someone else was. If even one other person gets value out of this, I am satisfied. If you're annoyed by me the Ignore button is available.
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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 14, 2017 14:28:57 GMT
There is a key piece of insight in this reply on how the devs view a key part of the game in my opinion: "...Usually I prefer not do get into the details too much, takes away a bit of the magic..."Magic is how you explain biotics and the other such things in the game. A key element in the progression of the game is not magic. Some of us and perhaps many of us are customers. It seems only fair we understand in plain and simple language the system that expects us to invest our time and or money in the product. Kudos to JRandall for how he handled this situation. The devs may want keep some of the game behind the curtain but there certainly is an argument to be made that other elements should be transparent and readily available to the playerbase. This is good example of the latter. The "magic" referenced in the Reddit post was the specific drop rate, which isn't in the PM either. BW clearly wants to keep a lid on that for some reason. The rest of the mechanics were clear from the Reddit post.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Transcended One on Aug 14, 2017 15:01:06 GMT
The rest of the mechanics were clear from the Reddit post. They were clear to you and they were clear to me. Obviously it wasn't clear to @jrandal0308 and possibly others. But why do you keep making elephants out of the situation, again?
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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 14, 2017 15:10:51 GMT
The rest of the mechanics were clear from the Reddit post. They were clear to you and they were clear to me. Obviously it wasn't clear to @jrandal0308 and possibly others. But why do you keep making elephants out of the situation, again? You're mixing metaphors, and I don't know what "situation" you're referencing. But I'm not escalating anything here, and I'm not taking him up on his offer to put him on ignore. I just find it annoying and juevenile that he made a thread rehashing old info with the apparent intention to suggest that his best friends at Bioware gave him permission to share secret info that until now they had only entrusted to him.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 14, 2017 15:32:13 GMT
I just find it annoying and juevenile that he made a thread rehashing old info with the apparent intention to suggest that his best friends at Bioware gave him permission to share secret info that until now they had only entrusted to him. Dude, quit being a dick. I *never* suggested *anywhere* that Bioware is my BFF nor that this was "secret" info. (I wrote "private" which it was, until Bastiaan told me it was OK to make it public. And yes, I am always going to ask permission in this situation.) I got up this morning, jacked myself up on a double-shot latte, and saw that Bastiaan had responded to my message. I was excited to share the information because it finally clarified for me what is going on with Variant Weapon drops. That's it. The thread title was so that people know this is straight from the horse's mouth, rather than derived data like we usually do.
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Post by DoctorDAM on Aug 14, 2017 15:51:17 GMT
Randall, thanks for posting! As you can see from my replies in other threads, this is of specific interest to me. It wasn't clear to me. And frankly, while I very much appreciate their responding to you with more detail, it is still not crystal clear. Essentially, I don't believe it is doing what they claim/think it is doing. See my post hereI've got new data, but it continues to support the above. That is, I'm getting way more variants than I believe can be explained by "10%", "small chance", or just "RNG is RNG". Or maybe they really only did it for UR's (my data are for Uncommons).
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 14, 2017 16:18:39 GMT
I've just been assuming Bastiaan, my BFF who provides me with inside information that no-one else has, was referring to URs. But admittedly that is an assumption.
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Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Scathane on Aug 14, 2017 16:41:27 GMT
Thanks, JR! People may think you're straight-laced but it's been your laces that have kept the tie to BioWare, keep up the good work! Edit:Mic malevolence defies violence I inherited Others just rentin' it like rooms at the Sheraton I gotta jones like Vanessa in the devil in- And y'all cold like a show in the Netherlands
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Post by snowleopard25 on Aug 14, 2017 17:17:10 GMT
Thanks JRandall0308 for this!
I can't believe regular posters don't appreciate ANY information regarding drop rates, drop rate step methodology and application, and the thinking behind the setting of drop rates. As most of you know, this has always been difficult to figure out for ME3MP, and we have been on our own to figure out how it works for the most part. (Props to all our fellow ME posters who have provided data and analyzed the drop rates; crashsuit and many others.)
This is useful to me, and I appreciate ANY additional info that Bastiaan may be willing to share. I have no problem with your respectful approach and discretion before publishing the answers. Who knows, we might learn some more?
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Post by unclemonster on Aug 14, 2017 17:41:53 GMT
as posted on Reddit by me:
look at this way... you buy an Arsenal pack-this pack contains 2 guaranteed RARE cards with a higher chance at weapons. (in this scenario you have some rares at X and some UR at X, but not all)
1. RNG stops at RARE slot 1: rolls for UR (~12.5% chance) or RARE (~87.5% chance), dice rolls RARE 2. RNG now rolls for weapon (75% chance) or character (25% chance), dice rolls weapon 3. RNG now rolls for variant (10% chance) or regular (90% chance), dice rolls variant, you get Reegar siphon I (you had Reegar X)
RNG now moves on to RARE slot 2 and repeats the process for that drop.
1. RNG stops at RARE slot 2: rolls for UR (~12.5% chance) or RARE (~87.5% chance), dice rolls UR 2. RNG now rolls for weapon (75% chance) or character (25% chance), dice rolls weapon 3. RNG now rolls for variant (10% chance) or regular (90% chance), dice rolls regular, you get Hurricane IX
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Post by DoctorDAM on Aug 14, 2017 19:11:42 GMT
unclemonster, that's exactly what he seems to be saying, except he is saying variant and weapon are in distinct pools, not UR roll > Weapon roll> variant roll.
I like your explanation by way of example. But .. Your approach (and I think it is what he implies, except for note above), would mean I'd have the same 10% chance to roll a variant whether I had one UR maxed, or ALL BUT ONE UR's maxed.
Example: I have Hurricane maxed, all others <10. I hit on a UR weapon slot. Chance of a variant (Hurricane) = 10%. that's actually higher than the chance of a Hurricane before I maxed it (1/16 chance). I have ALL UR's at 10 or higher, except one (Soned at say 5). Chance of any variant, still 10%. Chance of Soned 90%. So my next 5 UR drops will likely (59% probability) ALL be Soneds.
I doubt that's how it works. I know it isn't with UC's. Maybe those logging UR variant drops can provide insight.
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Post by unclemonster on Aug 14, 2017 19:55:04 GMT
unclemonster, that's exactly what he seems to be saying, except he is saying variant and weapon are in distinct pools, not UR roll > Weapon roll> variant roll. I like your explanation by way of example. But .. Your approach (and I think it is what he implies, except for note above), would mean I'd have the same 10% chance to roll a variant whether I had one UR maxed, or ALL BUT ONE UR's maxed. Example: I have Hurricane maxed, all others <10. I hit on a UR weapon slot. Chance of a variant (Hurricane) = 10%. that's actually higher than the chance of a Hurricane before I maxed it (1/16 chance). I have ALL UR's at 10 or higher, except one (Soned at say 5). Chance of any variant, still 10%. Chance of Soned 90%. So my next 5 UR drops will likely (59% probability) ALL be Soneds. I doubt that's how it works. I know it isn't with UC's. Maybe those logging UR variant drops can provide insight. DoctorDam, my explanation IS how the MEA RNG system works (exact percentages are not known). Each slot goes through a progression of rolls as stated. The first roll determines whether you get a RARE or UR card The second roll determines whether that card is a weapon or character (% differ based on pack type opened) If a weapon is rolled, the third roll determines whether you get a variant (10% & conditional on having a weapon of that tier at rank X) "Your approach (and I think it is what he implies, except for note above), would mean I'd have the same 10% chance to roll a variant whether I had one UR maxed, or ALL BUT ONE UR's maxed." THIS IS IN FACT TRUE. The 10% doesn't change no matter if you have one or all but one UR max. Your Hurricane and Soned examples are exactly correct. In the end you should average 1 UR variant every 10 UR (assuming you have at least 1 UR Rank X) until all are at max. Also, most only want the Siphon variant, so the other 2 variants are booby prizes! RNG is still RNG and it will differ for many...
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Post by JRandall0308 on Aug 14, 2017 20:04:13 GMT
Note that this system can be more satisfying to some players, and less satisfying to others, given exactly the same drops!
Say you have Hurricane X, Dhan I, and you really love the godfather's spicy meatballs. Any time you get a B/C/S Hurricane from now on and you don't get a Dhan, you are less satisfied.
Say you have Hurricane X, Dhan I, and you really want the variant Hurricanes (OK let's be realistic, just the Siphon). Any time you get a Dhan II, III, etc. from now on, you are less satisfied.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time.
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Post by unclemonster on Aug 14, 2017 20:08:21 GMT
Note that this system can be more satisfying to some players, and less satisfying to others, given exactly the same drops! Say you have Hurricane X, Dhan I, and you really love the godfather's spicy meatballs. Any time you get a B/C/S Hurricane from now on and you don't get a Dhan, you are less satisfied. Say you have Hurricane X, Dhan I, and you really want the variant Hurricanes (OK let's be realistic, just the Siphon). Any time you get a Dhan II, III, etc. from now on, you are less satisfied. You cannot please all of the people all of the time. more satisfying if the gun(s) you like hit X sooner. less satisfying if your favorite gun(s) rank low...
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Post by onehitparry on Aug 14, 2017 20:18:11 GMT
Great work, Detective JRandall0308! Your continued liasing between the devs and us is appreciated.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Aug 14, 2017 20:48:41 GMT
The motherfucking Roots. I'm a massive fanboy.
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Post by Uchimura on Aug 14, 2017 21:46:32 GMT
No offense, this doesn't seem like new info. The only thing that was previously new and unclear was Bastiaan's use of "Which means if all your base weapons are done, you now have the initial chance of a weapon variant + the chance of a weapon to gain a weapon variation." The scenarios you asked him were in the extent of what we know already. Edit: posted before reading the rest of the thread.. lol You cannot please all of the people all of the time. They could if they kept that behavior restricted to a new pack rather than sticking the variants together with the old pool.
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Post by killabkilledb on Aug 14, 2017 23:19:20 GMT
I'm sorry, I can't get past the tone of this thread. JRandall, you're not a Bioware insider with whom the devs would share confidential information of any sort. If they're telling you, whether via PM or not, the expectation is that the info will likely go public. I'm sure you'll say something like 'it's proper manners to ask someone for permission to share a PM conversation, and I merely stated that fact in the OP,' but it's clear what you're really trying to do, and it's really annoying. Also, this info was obvious from the explanation they gave in the Reddit thread.... His posts make me throw up in my mouth a little.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Scathane on Aug 15, 2017 5:28:12 GMT
The motherfucking Roots. I'm a massive fanboy. Well, good morning then!
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Post by Kenny Bania on Aug 15, 2017 5:55:45 GMT
The motherfucking Roots. I'm a massive fanboy. Well, good morning then! Definitely my favourite, and that's saying something. Guess I know who I'm listening to today...
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Post by N7Mith on Aug 16, 2017 10:34:35 GMT
All I know is every gold card (for me) has 100% chance to be a variant, and UR cards have 0% chance to be variants. And with the amount of time I'm playing lately that's unlikely to ever change.
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