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Post by islamdunk on Aug 18, 2017 9:36:50 GMT
Two major gripe I have, when I play Human Vanguards, is that they are fragile despite being frontline units, and their damage output is inconsistent. I had some time to look at each Vanguard's Power list, and noticed moderate difference between them that made Human Vanguards less reliable in terms of durability and firepower. 1. Lack of Health increase in Barrier PassiveAs you see, the image above show Combat Fitness, Rage and Barrier which have been invested to Level 4. The reason they are upgraded to Lv4, is because Combat Fitness and Barrier no longer provide Shield & Health Increase from that point. - Combat Fitness Lv4 grants +50% Health & Shield Increase, +30% Melee Damage.
- Rage Lv4 confers +40% Health & Shield Increase, +15% Melee Damage, +25% Weight, and unique Rage system that grants Health Regeneration, DR, Melee Damage when certain conditions are met.
- Barrier Lv4 gains +55% Shield increase, +30% Melee Damage, +25% Shield Regen Speed, and +25% Regen Delay Reduction.
I assume Barrier do not grant Health increase, because this passive is also shared by Adept classes which are mostly mid-to-rear line combatants. However, due to this design aspect, Human Vanguards are losing out potential Health Increase to make them more durable. It makes little sense that Human Engineers can have Health advantage to Human Vanguards. Shield Regen Speed, and Regen Delay Reduction contribute little to Human Vanguards because they simply do not have time to regenerate their Shields during combat; they draw a lot more fire than Adepts due to their aggressive, short-range Powers naturally requiring approach to the target, thus in game Vanguards are always taking a single bullet that immediately halts their Shield regeneration process. Vanguards mostly use Charge Power to regenerate their Shields, not cover. Suggestion : Spread out +55% Health Increase to Barrier Rank 1 ~ 4 Upgrades for Human Vanguards only.2. Saving Barrier, "Failsafe Upgrade" for Barrier Passive is not reliable enough to be a final defense.Above three are the well-known "failsafe upgrades" that prevent the user from dying, at a cost of potential combat effectiveness that is offered by the other evolution option. While they are not meant to rely on, they have a high chance to save the user on the verge of death. Hold the Line is arguably the most popular and reliable failsafe upgrade, due to extreme DR that it offers when the user is at low Health. However, on the other hand Saving Barrier lacks the reliability of being a failsafe due to several reasons; - Its cooldown is 15 seconds, which is noticeably long even for Adepts, and too long for Human Vanguards who stay at frontline.
- Cooldown is not indicated, which is the major reason for being unreliable.
- Human Soldier's Hold the Line with all Health Increase allows you to withstand 225 Health * 2 = 450 Damage (assuming 200 DR still cuts damage in 50%) before death, meanwhile Human Vanguard's Saving Barrier with all Shields Increase allows you to withstand 387.5 Shields + 100 Health = 487.5 Damage before death. The number difference is negligible, and of course we need to remember 200 DR grants more than 50% damage reduction, and the long cooldown.
So in conclusion, Saving Barrier is basically Hold the Line with 15 seconds cooldown. It is not attractive enough for any of us.
Suggestion : Saving Barrier definitely needs an improvement, but there are various ways to do it so I'll leave it to others. 3. Human Vanguard's unique firepower source, "Double Nova" tactic is too hard to even initiate.Currently (18/August/2017), amongst all Charge or Nova users, Human Vanguard is the only character that can use Nova twice in a row, without requiring a kill (whether it be a biotic kill or an Annihilation-ed enemy death), or a Shield Boost by a teammate. Above three evolutions are required to use a "Double Nova" tactic. This aspect makes Human Vanguard unique, so you lose out his own style if you intend to upgrade him in a different way. Double Nova tactic allows you to do very high damage in an area at a cost of Shield removal in CQC, but it is too hard to pull off due to reasons below; - Due to Bastion evolution, you need to wait 6 seconds to fully charge your Shields again; I have done "Jump Nova" which is performed by using Nova with jetpack-jump, so you can exploit Nova's invincibility frames as long as possible. But even with double shots of Jump Nova, there are moments where your Health is still vulnerable and your Charge is still on cooldown.
- Biotic Alacrity evolution only reduces Nova's Shields cost to 90%; if you somehow get hit by anything before/after using the first Jump Nova, you cannot do the second Jump Nova which is very hard to prevent, and breaks the tactic.
- Barrier Drain evolution is not reliable for Human Vanguard; By attempting a melee-attack to restore some Shields, you become vulnerable to any attack that staggers, or almost kills you due to depleted Shields. And remember that Human Vanguard lacks Health Increase.
- By adopting Active Barrier evolution, you must kill an enemy with a biotic Power to restore some Shields; but if you are going to rely on biotic kills to do consecutive Novas, then Krogan Gladiator is more suited for this playstyle; Human Vanguards gain unconditional +50% Power Damage by their APEX Training while Krogan Gladiator gains unconditional +90% Power Damage by her Offensive Biotics, so she is more likely to secure a kill.
However, I think there is only one issue here; Biotic Alacrity's Shield cost discount is too short to reliably perform a second Nova. Usually a Nova is performed in front of enemy(ies), so taking a bullet is inevitable for many Nova users; and if that bullet just happens to hit you even before the first Nova, it is very likely that 39 Shields (10% of total Shields for Human Vanguard) required for the second Nova just evaporates and leaves Human Vanguard in danger.
Suggestion : Biotic Alacrity's Shield Cost reduction should be -20%, instead of -10% for the Human Vanguard.
Any thoughts?
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Scathane
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Space Pirate
🚀🥃🏴☠
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Aug 18, 2017 10:07:15 GMT
To be honest, Ive never played HVan with double Nova. I'll give it a try later today, though, and let you know what my experieces are. Kudos for the extensive op! Edit: ↓↓↓ Never tried that either, lecorsob (I'm too lazy to look up my standard build right now) but I'll definitely give that a try as well!
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Post by lecorsob on Aug 18, 2017 10:14:30 GMT
This is how I run one of my human vanguards:
Charge 4B, 5B, 6A Shockwave 4B, 5B, 6B Nova 4B, 5B, 6A Apex training 4B, 5B, 6B Barrier 1 point
This way, I have 2 primers and 2 detonators. Despite the description, both seismic nova and lifting shockwave prime armor. The key to my survival is charge 6a, shock trooper, which allows me to detonate myself or get out quickly. Sure I fall here and there, but most of the time, I'm the culprit. He's a fast-paced character. I wouldn't play him in a laggy pug (I can't host myself). You also don't play him like a kroguard, where you charge, headbutt and all. I use dash a lot to close in, prime with nova (thank you invincibility frames), then detonate with shockwave or charge, depending. Slap an equalizer and you're set. Bring something long-range and lightweight too (like a hornet) and you're god to go.
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Post by mydamnalterego on Aug 18, 2017 10:24:49 GMT
About 20% shileds left instead of 10% in Biotic Alacrity - agreed.
But - it's still not enough to make the "Shock Trooper - Shield-Powered Nova - Active Barrier" combination viable, despite of 15% barrier restoratin per biotic kill instead of 10%, made two (?) patches before.
Why? Because Shield-Powered Nova doesn't kill on higher difficulties, it is still too weak and badly requires that IIRC 30% damage buff, that Seismic Nova grants.This would possibly make it actually kill, thus making the "Active Barrier" a viable choice (for currently "Saving Barrier" is a no-brainer).
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 18, 2017 14:05:30 GMT
If you pick Nova : Seismic Nova with all the Power Damage bonuses available (unconditional +205% ~ conditional +230%), Nova damage is increased to 1281 ~ 1386, but has a noticeable 12-seconds cooldown. If you pick Nova : Shield-Powered with all the Power Damage bonuses available (unconditional +155% ~ conditional +180%), Nova damage is increased to 1071 ~ 1176, and has no cooldown at a cost of all Shields. The funny thing is, Krogan Vanguard XX with all the Melee Damage bonuses available (unconditional +145% ~ conditional 295%) can headbutt for 1813 ~ 2923 damage. It's because Krogan Headbutt's base damage is 740, but Nova's base damage is 420. Quite imbalanced, if one asks me. So Human Vanguard has to consider if they are going to do 30% weaker AoE Headbutt and wait for 12 seconds, or 41% weaker AoE Headbutt at a cost of throwing away their protection. While Krogan Vanguard just continues to pummel everyone without a cooldown and a Shield Cost. Plus, the conditional 2923 damage is easier to achieve than one may think.
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 18, 2017 14:58:57 GMT
This is how I run one of my human vanguards: Charge 4B, 5B, 6A Shockwave 4B, 5B, 6B Nova 4B, 5B, 6A Apex training 4B, 5B, 6B Barrier 1 point This way, I have 2 primers and 2 detonators. Despite the description, both seismic nova and lifting shockwave prime armor. The key to my survival is charge 6a, shock trooper, which allows me to detonate myself or get out quickly. Sure I fall here and there, but most of the time, I'm the culprit. He's a fast-paced character. I wouldn't play him in a laggy pug (I can't host myself). You also don't play him like a kroguard, where you charge, headbutt and all. I use dash a lot to close in, prime with nova (thank you invincibility frames), then detonate with shockwave or charge, depending. Slap an equalizer and you're set. Bring something long-range and lightweight too (like a hornet) and you're god to go. Can't you achieve a similar playstyle with Krogan Gladiator, but with more reliablity? Same Power Points distribution like your Human Vanguard, 66661. They dash to get close to the target. Krogan Gladiator's has 25% faster Movement Speed thanks to Annihilation : Biotic Wind, which takes the role of Charge. Also Pull partially replaces Charge. Krogan Gladiator replenishes her Shields with Pull : Anti-Shields. which has the same effect of Charge without getting close to a danger. Krogan Gladiator always lift enemies into air thanks to Annihilation : Vortex, which is a short-ranged but always-ready version of Shockwave. They both have Nova : Seismic Nova. Krogan Gladiator has -10% Power Recharge Speed but has +65% Power Damage Bonus from Offensive Biotics; Human Vanguard has +50% Power Damage Bonus from APEX Training. Krogan Gladiator still has more Shields than Human Vanguard with Barrier 1, +200 Health, and plus she gets Rage System which allows Health Regen. Krogan Gladiator cannot detonate on Combos unlike Human Vanguard, but Combo damage starts to pale at Gold+ anyway. Of course they have noticeable differences, and I just might be insisting.
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Post by gethadept on Aug 18, 2017 15:09:56 GMT
Somebody complaining about Human Vanguard even after XX veteran bonus?
Good to see forum coming back alive.
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Post by lecorsob on Aug 18, 2017 15:24:27 GMT
This is how I run one of my human vanguards: Charge 4B, 5B, 6A Shockwave 4B, 5B, 6B Nova 4B, 5B, 6A Apex training 4B, 5B, 6B Barrier 1 point This way, I have 2 primers and 2 detonators. Despite the description, both seismic nova and lifting shockwave prime armor. The key to my survival is charge 6a, shock trooper, which allows me to detonate myself or get out quickly. Sure I fall here and there, but most of the time, I'm the culprit. He's a fast-paced character. I wouldn't play him in a laggy pug (I can't host myself). You also don't play him like a kroguard, where you charge, headbutt and all. I use dash a lot to close in, prime with nova (thank you invincibility frames), then detonate with shockwave or charge, depending. Slap an equalizer and you're set. Bring something long-range and lightweight too (like a hornet) and you're god to go. Can't you achieve a similar playstyle with Krogan Gladiator, but with more reliablity? Same Power Points distribution like your Human Vanguard, 66661. They dash to get close to the target. Krogan Gladiator's has 25% faster Movement Speed thanks to Annihilation : Biotic Wind, which takes the role of Charge. Also Pull partially replaces Charge. Krogan Gladiator replenishes her Shields with Pull : Anti-Shields. which has the same effect of Charge without getting close to a danger. Krogan Gladiator always lift enemies into air thanks to Annihilation : Vortex, which is a short-ranged but always-ready version of Shockwave. They both have Nova : Seismic Nova. Krogan Gladiator has -10% Power Recharge Speed but has +65% Power Damage Bonus from Offensive Biotics; Human Vanguard has +50% Power Damage Bonus from APEX Training. Krogan Gladiator still has more Shields than Human Vanguard with Barrier 1, +200 Health, and plus she gets Rage System which allows Health Regen. Krogan Gladiator cannot detonate on Combos unlike Human Vanguard, but Combo damage starts to pale at Gold+ anyway. Of course they have noticeable differences, and I just might be insisting. Well my human vanguard is rank XX, my gladiator is what, IV? I do play her as a krogan though, smash things with the hammer, front line and all that, whereas my human vanguard makes use of soft cover, shockwaves through walls et al. I play him conservatively, at "closish" range. Well, as far as my shockwave goes basically
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Post by c0y0tesly on Aug 18, 2017 15:53:53 GMT
If you pick Nova : Seismic Nova with all the Power Damage bonuses available (unconditional +205% ~ conditional +230%), Nova damage is increased to 1281 ~ 1386, but has a noticeable 12-seconds cooldown. If you pick Nova : Shield-Powered with all the Power Damage bonuses available (unconditional +155% ~ conditional +180%), Nova damage is increased to 1071 ~ 1176, and has no cooldown at a cost of all Shields. The funny thing is, Krogan Vanguard XX with all the Melee Damage bonuses available (unconditional +145% ~ conditional 295%) can headbutt for 1813 ~ 2923 damage. It's because Krogan Headbutt's base damage is 740, but Nova's base damage is 420. Quite imbalanced, if one asks me. So Human Vanguard has to consider if they are going to do 30% weaker AoE Headbutt and wait for 12 seconds, or 41% weaker AoE Headbutt at a cost of throwing away their protection. While Krogan Vanguard just continues to pummel everyone without a cooldown and a Shield Cost. Plus, the conditional 2923 damage is easier to achieve than one may think. Even more to the point, Novas base damage is 420 and the human's base melee is...400. And can (and would) be specced to regenerate 15% shields with every hit instead of costing 90%. The combination is low damage and slow ass charge cooldown basically guts the idea of a novaguard in this game. But there are other fun and effective ways to play them, the glass cannon combo setup is fun, or keep Barrier and go weapon priming and charge/Shockwave if you want both passives so it's a bit less suicidal. I do agree on the overall squishiness, it's a problem for all vanguard on this game with charge cooldowns being what they are.
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Post by mydamnalterego on Aug 18, 2017 15:56:09 GMT
Somebody complaining about Human Vanguard even after XX veteran bonus? Good to see forum coming back alive. I'd say - this time it's not a complaint as such, it is a pack of proposals to: a) make all possible combinations viable (for instance "Shock Trooper – Shield-Powered Nova – Active Barrier" one, unviable currently); remove no-brainer choices; c) thus make us really choose :-))
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Post by gethadept on Aug 18, 2017 17:00:49 GMT
Somebody complaining about Human Vanguard even after XX veteran bonus? Good to see forum coming back alive. I'd say - this time it's not a complaint as such, it is a pack of proposals to: a) make all possible combinations viable (for instance "Shock Trooper – Shield-Powered Nova – Active Barrier" one, unviable currently); remove no-brainer choices; c) thus make us really choose :-)) Giving how much health would solve this problem?
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Post by mydamnalterego on Aug 18, 2017 17:37:41 GMT
I'd say - this time it's not a complaint as such, it is a pack of proposals to: a) make all possible combinations viable (for instance "Shock Trooper – Shield-Powered Nova – Active Barrier" one, unviable currently); remove no-brainer choices; c) thus make us really choose :-)) Giving how much health would solve this problem? Ummm ... it's not about health (if not our, players' one is meant, of course). If you (or someone else) ask me - I would: 1. Remake Nova a bit, and exactly: a) increase base damage; added to 6b the same 30% damage buff, as already is in 6a, for - Shield-Powered Nova doesn't kill, unlike Seismic one. Knockback and priming vs no cooldown, but most of shield stripped would be a good trade-off, after all; 2. Buffed Biotic Alacrity a bit: 20% of shields to remain instead of current 10%. 3. Slightly remake Shockwave, and exactly - its 6a: I'd increase damage (somewhat) and - mostly - force (severely) to make it reliably stagger anything (bar, maybe, bosses) on its way.
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Post by gethadept on Aug 18, 2017 17:58:43 GMT
Giving how much health would solve this problem? Ummm ... it's not about health (if not our, players' one is meant, of course). If you (or someone else) ask me - I would: 1. Remake Nova a bit, and exactly: a) increase base damage; added to 6b the same 30% damage buff, as already is in 6a, for - Shield-Powered Nova doesn't kill, unlike Seismic one. Knockback and priming vs no cooldown, but most of shield stripped would be a good trade-off, after all; 2. Buffed Biotic Alacrity a bit: 20% of shields to remain instead of current 10%. 3. Slightly remake Shockwave, and exactly - its 6a: I'd increase damage (somewhat) and - mostly - force (severely) to make it reliably stagger anything (bar, maybe, bosses) on its way. Yeah. U guys are both asking for that 10% more shield remaining. I dunno how helpful it would be but if you guys find it worthy I suppose it`s worth it. I don`t think other damage changes are necessary because human vanguard XX can kill everything other than boss units within 3 seconds currently. Not sure why anyone would choose Risky and situational double Nova instead of priming nova + detonating charge that kills everything outright but boss... but be my guest to play it such way. I am sure you guys are already aware of this.. but most characters have power evolution options that are not entirely balanced. Tactical cloak would be one since 99% people will choose damage. Most power users will choose cool down & duration.. etc etc Op wrote all that just to ask for 10% more shield remaining after using Nova... I don`t see the point. The Double Nova Vanguard will still be obsolete to detonating + melee vanguard.
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Post by gethadept on Aug 18, 2017 18:08:06 GMT
Here is my suggestion.
Try use 40% biotic damage booster & try punch between nova.
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Origin: Paradox949
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Post by Paradox949 on Aug 18, 2017 18:32:29 GMT
About 20% shileds left instead of 10% in Biotic Alacrity - agreed. But - it's still not enough to make the "Shock Trooper - Shield-Powered Nova - Active Barrier" combination viable, despite of 15% barrier restoratin per biotic kill instead of 10%, made two (?) patches before. Why? Because Shield-Powered Nova doesn't kill on higher difficulties, it is still too weak and badly requires that IIRC 30% damage buff, that Seismic Nova grants.This would possibly make it actually kill, thus making the "Active Barrier" a viable choice (for currently "Saving Barrier" is a no-brainer). Me and my friends think that the rank 6 50% damage evo of Seismic Nova need to be swapped to Shield Powered. 50% extra damage with shield powered due to using all of your bloody shields to do it sounds fine . The priming effect alone of Seismic Nova is enough, it doesn't need the damage, you have a 3.5m radius charge multi-detonator. I tried running: recharge equipment, recharge + power damage boosters, Bastion Charge + SP Nova, so I could Nova twice. Couldn't kill Gold redbars with the first Nova. It's dumb, you sacrifice so much for so little gain. Maybe a full power damage one would be better, but you need the recharge for Charge otherwise you are dead, you have little no shields almost all the time as they fuel your damage. I think the concept of Shield Powered Nova is great, the execution is awful though.
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Post by mydamnalterego on Aug 18, 2017 19:31:16 GMT
Ummm ... it's not about health (if not our, players' one is meant, of course). If you (or someone else) ask me - I would: 1. Remake Nova a bit, and exactly: a) increase base damage; added to 6b the same 30% damage buff, as already is in 6a, for - Shield-Powered Nova doesn't kill, unlike Seismic one. Knockback and priming vs no cooldown, but most of shield stripped would be a good trade-off, after all; 2. Buffed Biotic Alacrity a bit: 20% of shields to remain instead of current 10%. 3. Slightly remake Shockwave, and exactly - its 6a: I'd increase damage (somewhat) and - mostly - force (severely) to make it reliably stagger anything (bar, maybe, bosses) on its way. Yeah. U guys are both asking for that 10% more shield remaining. I dunno how helpful it would be but if you guys find it worthy I suppose it`s worth it. I don`t think other damage changes are necessary because human vanguard XX can kill everything other than boss units within 3 seconds currently. Not sure why anyone would choose Risky and situational double Nova instead of priming nova + detonating charge that kills everything outright but boss... but be my guest to play it such way. I am sure you guys are already aware of this.. but most characters have power evolution options that are not entirely balanced. Tactical cloak would be one since 99% people will choose damage. Most power users will choose cool down & duration.. etc etc Op wrote all that just to ask for 10% more shield remaining after using Nova... I don`t see the point. The Double Nova Vanguard will still be obsolete to detonating + melee vanguard. These extra 10% would make "Shock Trooper + Shield-Powered Nova" combination somewhat less risky, it could help to survive these 3,6 or 3.8 s between Charges. In fact, it's all about combinations granting the certain playstyle (for any kit, BTW). For ManGuard there are currently two main variants: 1. 6-1-6-6-6, with 1 point exactly in Nova, i.e. Shockwave + Charge, self combo variant; 2. 6-6-1-6-6 with 1 point in Shockwave, i.e. Charge + punch/shoot (single target), Charge + Seismic Nova + punch|shoot (multiple targets) In both these builds, though, Bastion utterly beats Shock Trooper, Saving Barrier beats Active Barrier, Barrier Drain beats Biotic Alacrity etc. I'd like to add third variant - already mentioned above Shock Trooper + Shield-Powered Nova one,a kind of "Non-Stop Flying Biotic Bomb" one.
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Post by lecorsob on Aug 19, 2017 1:12:40 GMT
Yeah. U guys are both asking for that 10% more shield remaining. I dunno how helpful it would be but if you guys find it worthy I suppose it`s worth it. I don`t think other damage changes are necessary because human vanguard XX can kill everything other than boss units within 3 seconds currently. Not sure why anyone would choose Risky and situational double Nova instead of priming nova + detonating charge that kills everything outright but boss... but be my guest to play it such way. I am sure you guys are already aware of this.. but most characters have power evolution options that are not entirely balanced. Tactical cloak would be one since 99% people will choose damage. Most power users will choose cool down & duration.. etc etc Op wrote all that just to ask for 10% more shield remaining after using Nova... I don`t see the point. The Double Nova Vanguard will still be obsolete to detonating + melee vanguard. These extra 10% would make "Shock Trooper + Shield-Powered Nova" combination somewhat less risky, it could help to survive these 3,6 or 3.8 s between Charges. In fact, it's all about combinations granting the certain playstyle (for any kit, BTW). For ManGuard there are currently two main variants: 1. 6-1-6-6-6, with 1 point exactly in Nova, i.e. Shockwave + Charge, self combo variant; 2. 6-6-1-6-6 with 1 point in Shockwave, i.e. Charge + punch/shoot (single target), Charge + Seismic Nova + punch|shoot (multiple targets) In both these builds, though, Bastion utterly beats Shock Trooper, Saving Barrier beats Active Barrier, Barrier Drain beats Biotic Alacrity etc. I'd like to add third variant - already mentioned above Shock Trooper + Shield-Powered Nova one,a kind of "Non-Stop Flying Biotic Bomb" one. Too many figures, not enough play. For example, it's like saying 30% extra damage is better than radius on charge, but in game, I'd take radius over damage any day of the week. respec cards are easy to get. If you accept the human vanguard is squishier than the krogan gladiator, you'll get somewhere. I'm drunk, I'm going to bed, but try my build without thinking about numbers. It helps
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 19, 2017 2:10:34 GMT
However, any other classes can tackle Medium-to-Bosses just fine, not only on the weakest Red Bar enemies which everyone has hardly any difficulty removing, especially at range. Human Vanguards are also somewhat awkward to use against Medium enemies with Armor who often overcome Nova's stagger, or flying enemies (Breacher, Observer). We use Double Nova on Human Vanguard, simply because its arguably their unique way to play compared to other Charge/Nova users. I mentioned in the original post that " Human Vanguard is the only character that can use Nova twice in a row, without requiring a kill (whether it be a biotic kill or an Annihilation-ed enemy death), or a Shield Boost by a teammate". If you are going to rely on Priming Nova + Detonating Charge, Krogan Vanguards can also do the same in a more reliable way, since they do not lose out Health Increase and gain access to Health Regen. And it is almost identical to Asari Adept and Batarian Vanguard's gameplay which is Priming Annihilation + Detonating Throw / Charge. The difference between here is that once Annihilation is active it basically has no cooldown to prime an enemy, and its Power Recharge Penalty can be decreased to -10% which is barely an issue if you use Biotic Power Amp 1, a common booster. Meanwhile Seismic Nova deals, about Ruzad X's single-shot damage and requires 12 seconds cooldown to use again. And I don't prefer suggesting something overpowered at first. I could have suggested -50% Shield Cost reduction for Biotic Alacrity which may be seen as imbalanced, so I start out with something small. -20% Shield Cost reduction is a good start.
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Space Pirate
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Post by Scathane on Aug 19, 2017 4:42:42 GMT
Here is my suggestion. Try use 40% biotic damage booster & try punch between nova. This is more or less how I've playing them, btw...
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 19, 2017 6:09:26 GMT
Here is my suggestion. Try use 40% biotic damage booster & try punch between nova. This is more or less how I've playing them, btw... With Shield-Powered Nova? or Seismic Nova? I assume it's SP Nova since gethadept said "between nova". I have definitely tried Nova-Melee-Nova combo with Barrier Drain, and while it is okay, it requires some finesse; - You need to time the first Nova right in order to avoid the target's melee staggering you for your upcoming melee-attack. But here's the issue; you would want to use Nova as soon as possible, or either the target tricks you and keep shooting point-blank or the other enemies could take potshots at you. Timing Nova is not as easy as one would think.
- Melee, of course, doesn't have invincibility frames. So there is no guarantee that another enemy attack from behind won't stagger you during melee.
- Even if you scored a melee and gained Shields, three-round burst from a Raider (on Gold+) is strong enough to compromise 56 Shields you gained from melee.
So Human Vanguards pretty much favor 1vs1 situations so they can preserve their Shields.
Then what's the point of Nova if you are using against a single target?
And I already said that SP Nova has nearly identical damage to Ruzad X. I would rather take Human Infiltrator with Ruzad X, so I could one-shot a Red Bar while avoiding all the hassle a Human Vanguard would suffer. Or a Krogan Vanguard that deals 2923 headbutt damage if conditions are met.
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Scathane
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Post by Scathane on Aug 19, 2017 8:31:47 GMT
I've never used shield-powered Nova, afaic recall, islamdunk...
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 19, 2017 10:16:54 GMT
I've never used shield-powered Nova, afaic recall, islamdunk ... I see. But even then, Krogan Vanguard still has the upper hand when it comes to "Seismic Nova > Melee" combo as well. Because Human Vanguard's base melee damage pales when competing against Krogan Vanguard's (400 vs 740). Yet another damage calculation... - They both have APEX Training that offers +40% Melee Damage Bonus.
- If they are equipped with Shotgun Melee Optimizer, they both gain +33% Melee Damage Bonus (I have excluded this bonus until now).
- If they are Rank 20, they both gain +39% Melee Damage Bonus.
- If they are affected by Charge : Weapons and Melee evolution, they gain +30% Melee Damage Bonus.
- If Krogan Vanguard is affected by Fortify : Power Armor evolution, he gains +30% Melee Damage Bonus.
- Human Vanguard has Barrier that offers unconditional +80% ~ conditional 145% Melee Damage Bonus.
- Krogan Vanguard has Rage that offers unconditional +65% ~ conditional 180% Melee Damage Bonus.
So Human Vanguard can have melee damage of 1288 ~ 1548. But Krogan Vanguard deals melee damage of 2494 ~ 3345.
Thus if you are sticking to "Seismic Nova > Melee" tactic, Krogan Vanguard outperforms him.
And Double Nova tactic can be easily compromised, due to reasons listed in original post and the others.
So the only thing left for the Human Vanguard, is the 66661 PP Distribution which abandons Barrier upgrade.
But then, why not use the Asari Adept?
Asari Adept's Annihilation can take the role of Nova : Seismic Nova.
Asari Adept's Throw : Duration allows itself to become both Primer and Detonator, which is identical to Shockwave : Lifting Shockwave.
Asari Adept's Lance can take the role of Detonating Charge.
If Asari Adept also takes 66661 PP Distribution, she does the work better and more reliably than Human Vanguard; because she can create Biotic Combos from long-range even without Annihilation. Meanwhile Human Vanguards only have Shockwave at a firefight, and must get in close if one wishes to create Biotic Combos.
And how ironic; Human Vanguards must use Charge if they want to replenish their Shields, but after that, they are in a CQC situation where taking damage is inevitable. And they only have Barrier 1.
I already said it, but Human Vanguards are in a bad spot.
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Aug 19, 2017 10:55:13 GMT
Human vanguard is my favorite. Not abusing or should I say, exploiting, those invincibility frames enough if you think he/she are fragile. And no, 2 detonators and 2 primers. There is nothing weak or "needing" improvement for humangaurds.
You can't play them the way you've been in the past if there are issues, change the game, change the world!
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Post by islamdunk on Aug 19, 2017 11:25:39 GMT
Human vanguard is my favorite. Not abusing or should I say, exploiting, those invincibility frames enough if you think he/she are fragile. And no, 2 detonators and 2 primers. There is nothing weak or "needing" improvement for humangaurds. You can't play them the way you've been in the past if there are issues, change the game, change the world! No, Human Vanguards lack both in damage output and durability compared to other Vanguards. The way Human Vanguards do, the others can do it better and I have explained the reason through several posts.
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Post by lecorsob on Aug 19, 2017 12:12:32 GMT
Play the human vanguard for what he is, a skirmish fighter. Close in, prime, detonate, cover. He's not a krogan, he's not an adept, he's more of a biotic soldier. Well that's how I see and play him and no amount of maths and theoretical max damage output is going to change my mind What he lacks in survivability, he makes up for being able to hide behind all covers, something a Krogan can't do.
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