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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 22, 2016 21:22:13 GMT
This explains much. (credit: link first posted by OriginofWaves in Twitter thread) Article in Gamasutra by Bioware Design Director James Ohlen; www.gamasutra.com/view/news/281853/The_realities_of_being_a_game_designer_in_a_big_studio_like_BioWare.phpGroupthink. Check. Excise ego. Check. Forego criticism. Check. Don't like the vision? Just be positive until you do. Check. Disclaimer: I have never worked in the gaming industry; and I may be wrong, but to me, this smells like a therapists guide to mediocrity, and explains much. (edit: content; Mssr Ohlen is the Design Director, not the Creative Director as originally posted.)
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Post by Adhin on Sept 22, 2016 21:36:22 GMT
Not.. no. It's basic working in groups. The only part that can seem irritating is the last one 'don't like the vision, deal with it'. But that is a realism of a group of hundreds working on something.
Ultimately the vision is going to be rather broad, not specific and it's there job to make that broad vision work in the fine detail/practice. It can definitely lead to mediocrity if the people don't 'like' that initial vision and as such, forcing it comes out crappy when it could of otherwise been good.
Saying forego criticism sounds like putting words in his mouth though. His whole thing literally said you have to take peoples criticism because failing to do so will lead to ruin which is true.
Also with you making shit of all those points... why is 'groupthink' part of it? Should they not work together? Just kinda all flail around individually never sharing ideas or looking over each others work to criticize things that may not be as great as the person thinks? Or do you mean developed by a committee?
That ones always confused me a bit, usually it crops up due to lacking an individual being the head of the thing (which BioWare doesn't really lack on) or listen far to much to focus testing to the point of screwing over your own groups vision. That's one of those double edged sword things, focus testing can be good as long as it doesn't drive the whole project. No focus testing can result in releasing a project you think is amazing only to find out no one can figure out how to get out of the first level because you where to close to the project to realize you gone dun fucked up.
Also... Excise Ego? What? Like... like taxing ego? A money jar for arrogant pricks who can't take criticism?
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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 22, 2016 21:43:55 GMT
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 22, 2016 21:46:50 GMT
Want to game dev where individuals boldly make it up as they go along? 'No Man's Sky'...
AAA titles have to work collaboratively or waste money fixing issues late. Sure, you need creativity and vision from the most experienced, but the front line is about capable execution.
The article looked pretty practical to me.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 22, 2016 21:49:56 GMT
Heh, Excise excise. Ahh i like that's the only part responded too. -.-
Point was letting your ego get in the way is pretty much never a good thing. Unless your job is pissing people off and chasing away friends.
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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 22, 2016 22:08:54 GMT
Want to game dev where individuals boldly make it up as they go along? 'No Man's Sky'... AAA titles have to work collaboratively or waste money fixing issues late. Sure, you need creativity and vision from the most experienced, but the front line is about capable execution. The article looked pretty practical to me. I haven't played No Man's Sky, must be bad. Collaboration is good, usually. As is efficiency, obviously. Creativity and vision need not necessarily come from the most experienced, and often is best from newer positions and perspectives. I have just been trying to get how Bioware could lay such an eggs as the ME3 endings fiasco or the DAIMP lack of readiness at launch. And of course their sensitivity to these topics, at least in the old forum.
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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 22, 2016 22:14:33 GMT
Oops; correction, Mssr Ohlen is the Bioware Design Director, not the Creative Director as I originally indicated.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 22, 2016 22:18:15 GMT
Yeah, from what the publics been told in a round about 'this person works at bioware' kinda way was it was a last minute thing and didn't actually go through all the things he mentioned. There was no peer review on that ending. And it was in response to the script being leaked. Granted we would still get an RGB choice though so that's neither here nor there really. But the ending was meant to have are choices shown more in cut scenes through out like Krogans showing up and trashing things. So it seems more like everything up to glow fucker.
In the end ME3 ending issue was mostly a writing one and it.. was just written that way. That's not some vision from the top necessarily that was just... I dunno. They went with AI instead of Dark Energy and the Reapers reasons became circular due to that. Least the needing to make a human reaper to solve the Dark Energy issue had some amount of 'well least they have a reason, even if there assholes'.
Far as DAIMP - different team on it, no beta for server support. One reason I'm hoping we get an actual Beta honestly. They need to make sure things are going to work. With EA"s focus on doing betas lately, we might just see one.
As far as creativity and vision not needing to come from the most experienced. Agreed, and so does the guy in the article - he literally says that exact same thing. The whole not letting egos get in the way and the more experienced needing to be open to the newer guys ideas was part of that and is super important.
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Post by saberchic on Sept 22, 2016 22:26:27 GMT
OP, I think you are reading way too much into it and making some assumptions based off your own biases.
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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 22, 2016 22:30:58 GMT
Probably. Likely on the bias.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 23, 2016 0:59:25 GMT
Did we even read the same article?
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Post by goishen on Sept 23, 2016 2:17:32 GMT
No one is saying that you have to conform to group think. Good lord.
All he's saying is that once the decision's been made, we all go through with that decision. We don't wander off down a path where you'll have one mission go one way with a normal TPS, and I'll go another that has press fire once to zOMG KILL EVERYTHING! I can show some asshats that are in that type of environment, if you really want me to get that nasty. And they're in that type of environment voluntarily.
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Post by theflyingzamboni on Sept 23, 2016 3:19:49 GMT
This explains much. (credit: link first posted by OriginofWaves in Twitter thread) Article in Gamasutra by Bioware Design Director James Ohlen; www.gamasutra.com/view/news/281853/The_realities_of_being_a_game_designer_in_a_big_studio_like_BioWare.phpGroupthink. Check. Excise ego. Check. Forego criticism. Check. Don't like the vision? Just be positive until you do. Check. Disclaimer: I have never worked in the gaming industry; and I may be wrong, but to me, this smells like a therapists guide to mediocrity, and explains much. (edit: content; Mssr Ohlen is the Design Director, not the Creative Director as originally posted.) Really? This is just basic "being an employee and working with a group." If you aren't at the top, of course you have to work on "visions" you may not like. What workplace has 200 employees with equal say and identical visions? (None.) I'll break it down a different way. Be cooperative. Don't be an obstinate asshole if you happen to dislike something. Be open to other people's ideas, wherever you fall in the heirarchy. Working on someone else's vision is your job, like it would be at any company. Sounds reasonable to me.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 23, 2016 3:23:52 GMT
This part caught my eye: Ego Self-Destructive Thoughts: I am not going to show my work yet. People may be critical of it. I will show my work when I have perfected it. -- When you don't show your work, you don't make adjustments early or often enough.Follow your own advice Bioware, and show your work.
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Post by bshep on Sept 23, 2016 3:57:25 GMT
Really? This is just basic "being an employee and working with a group." If you aren't at the top, of course you have to work on "visions" you may not like. What workplace has 200 employees with equal say and identical visions? (None.) I'll break it down a different way. Be cooperative. Don't be an obstinate asshole if you happen to dislike something. Be open to other people's ideas, wherever you fall in the heirarchy. Working on someone else's vision is your job, like it would be at any company. Sounds reasonable to me. You took the words from my mouth sir.
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Post by Adhin on Sept 23, 2016 4:08:26 GMT
This part caught my eye: Ego Self-Destructive Thoughts: I am not going to show my work yet. People may be critical of it. I will show my work when I have perfected it. -- When you don't show your work, you don't make adjustments early or often enough.Follow your own advice Bioware, and show your work. LOL Didn't even think of that but it's pretty funny parallel with the gaming industry. They got this bizar habit of not even mentioning there working on a title even if it's been 2+ years. BioWare talking around DAI because they couldn't 'say' they where working on it the year prior to announcement was funny. Bethesda refusing to say 'yeah Fallout 4 is coming' because it hadn't been announced yet. It's a bizar ass industry with the announcement stuff. I can promise you Bioware WANTs to show there work. But NDA's and how the industry handles things has there hands tied. -.-
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 23, 2016 6:20:11 GMT
Probably. Likely on the bias. I think we knew you had a particular perspective from the title, OP Often things are neither as rosy as a corporate manager suggests they are, nor as bad as exterior observers fear they are. To me, the article simply points out to new developers to temper their expectations when they are the 'new kid on the block'...
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Post by Spectr61 on Sept 23, 2016 8:03:48 GMT
Don't make waves, and definitely don't make anyone mad.
Get along with everyone and do as you're told, even if you don't like it.
Turn in your work on time. And don't be critical.
Be a good little robot.
That about it then?
I personally would prefer an environment where all were encouraged to be critical, think critically, and be open and vocal. Something along the lines of "No, Mr Hudson, I don't like the vision for the end of the game, and I think it may alienate a lot of our fans."
A pipe dream, I know. Corporate hierarchy and all that. And I've never been good at cubicle-land.
I'm just searching for answers on how things like the endings mess can happen, and that the same type of myopia won't set in for what I hope is a magnificent Andromeda.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 23, 2016 8:19:28 GMT
... I'm just searching for answers on how things like the endings mess can happen, and that the same type of myopia won't set in for what I hope is a magnificent Andromeda. I have every expectation that such a discussion will have happened, though we will probably never hear about it. If you look at BioWare conference panel recordings from the summer of 2012, they look as if someone just shot their puppy. Conversely, the chatter on twitter from devs about review meetings and sharing their levels is upbeat and positive. Neither of us will ever know because we don't actually work there. The general advice to new devs to work collaboratively and get the basics nailed down is pretty good advice for any new joiner, in my view. BioWare's only answer to 5 years of Red/Blue/Green memes is a new game that knocks it out of the park, so to speak.
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Post by SofaJockey on Sept 23, 2016 9:23:15 GMT
... BioWare's only answer to 5 years of Red/Blue/Green memes is a new game that knocks it out of the park, so to speak. I tend to be critical of Bioware, but I certainly want to see good games from them, ME:A becoming a huge success would certainly be a good thing. If it actually happens that is... The proof is in the pudding, irrespective of 5 years of speculation, MEA, however it turns out, can be the only response that matters.
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Post by KirkyX on Sept 23, 2016 9:59:08 GMT
If I did THIS, would it mean anything to you?
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 23, 2016 10:33:15 GMT
Ye, go work in a team and see how far obstructive behaviour will get you. Boss and colleagues will surely love that attitude. Don't forget to come late for the meetings, too - because you're special.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 23, 2016 10:48:12 GMT
Increasingly I just find myself gravitating towards blogs/videos etc on just topics I find interesting rather than gaming, to be quite honest.
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Post by Sifr on Sept 23, 2016 11:04:51 GMT
BioWare's only answer to 5 years of Red/Blue/Green memes is a new game that knocks it out of the park, so to speak. Or to create a video where they cleave Red/Blue/Green soda with the Inquisition longsword...
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Post by Wulfram on Sept 23, 2016 12:05:17 GMT
Blue soda not cleaved, Control confirmed as correct choice
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