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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 6, 2017 5:45:13 GMT
I know that it's been said that they won't be doing origins again due to resources. But surely there exists a middle ground between 6 1-hour long playable backstories and the in medias res chasm we got in subsequent games.
The origins in DAO had an Introduction/Crisis/Aftermath setup (eg. City Elf: preparing for wedding/wedding attacked/fight free), the aftermath then leading into the mainquest plothook (Duncan recruitment). The introduction gives the player a chance to establish who the character is and how they feel about things before shit goes down, and experience the crisis that leads the pc to their adventure with them.
DA2 and DAI both landed you in the aftermath (after the darkspawn attack Lothering and you flee, after the conclave was blown up) giving you no chance to roleplay your character through events. Waking up to find out the conclave had blown up would be a lot more upsetting if you’d actually met some of the characters there. Losing your home and your sibling would impact more if you’d actually seen your home or had a conversation with your sibling. Chopping the beginning off like this disconnects you from how your character feels about events. Even if the next dragon age game doesn’t have multiple backgrounds I hope it has a proper beginning because in video games in medias res isn’t so much exciting/engaging as it is immersion breaking/disconnecting.
Obviously I’d love to just have origins back, with just 3 of them to decrease cost, as they have immense rp and immersion value. But there are other options that bridge the gap between the two styles that are more possible./likely to happen.
Some possibilities with different levels of resource use that I can think of:
Partial Origin / Varying Introductions
- In this option I’d suggest having multiple introductions with the same crisis/aftermath.
- So say 3 backgrounds. Each has their own beginning, starting at a small map with multiple npcs to talk to and each then get sent to the same location for varying reasons. It is there that the crisis occurs and they all share this and the aftermath. Set family members/friends/coworkers.
- They can be any but as an example: Altus Mage (human), Slave (Any), and a Merchant or merchants guard (Dwarf) in a major Tevinter city. They each start at home/work and interact with people in their life, then get sent from intro area to a major marketplace or a dock for their respective reasons. Whilst there, the city comes under attack by Qunari forces. The pc, whichever they are, has to fight to defend themselves and make it to safety where/during they encounter the main plot hook.
Same Beginning with Diverging Conversations
- More limited Divergence: The backgrounds start at the same location with the same npcs but have differing conversations/interactions depending on background. Each with a dedicated npc for their background. Since there are no new unique maps and mostly the same content we’ll say 4-5 backgrounds. Some details of background set.
- Example: A Magister is having a fabulous party, the pc can be in attendance as – A servant/slave who works in the household(Human/Elf), a guest from the Ambassadoria (Dwarf), Imperial Guard as security(??), or the Magister’s own apprentice (Human/Elf). The apprentice can talk to the magister, the Dwarf to a fellow representative, the slave to another slave etc. And they all can speak to a handful of npcs who react differently depending on their identity. One of them could be Dorian or Maevaris. During the party there is an attack from assassins/mercenaries presumed to be working for a rival magister, the host is killed and the attackers are looking for something. The pc finds their way to the magister’s vaults finding the artefact that the intruders were looking for and fleeing with an inquisition agent who recruits them to the main quest.
No divergence – But not in medias res
- Many backgrounds with the same content, but you don’t start after the action’s already happened. Minimal set info about background.
- Example: You’re travelling on a major road leading up to a toll bridge where there is a big line of stalled travellers, caravans, farmers etc. You can be – Farmer delivering cart of produce(human), Mercenary(any), Tevinter Circle Mage(Human/Elf), Apostate Mage (human/elf/tal vashoth), Merchant Caravan member (dwarf/human), Escaped Slave(elf) and an Antivan crow. You travel up the line to investigate the hold-up talking to a few of people on the way (same/similar dialogue for all, they don't know who you are) to discover the bridge gate is closed. Further investigation will reveal that all the bridge staff are dead and there is an infestation of monsters. Killing the monsters you see one of the dead bodies’ looks out of place, not a guard, and must deliver an important object/message revelation found on the body.
Note: Examples are not suggestions for what the beginning/backgrounds should be, just illustrations of how the suggested structure might work. Any backgrounds and situation can fit.
What sort of beginning do you want in da4? And what do you think is actually possible?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 6, 2017 6:27:48 GMT
What sort of beginning do you want in da4? And what do you think is actually possible? I want the Inquisitor to be the protagonist in DA4. Failing that, of the three kinds you offer I think 'Same Beginning with Diverging Conversations' would work best.
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Post by Theni on Sept 6, 2017 7:23:34 GMT
You bring up some really good points. I agree that a good introduction to your character is what is missing from DA2 and DAI, I just never thought about it before. It feels like you wake up with a green hand AND amnesia in DAI. You didn't just forget what happened at the conclave, but your entire life is missing too. Hawke is already on the run when you start playing, and when companions start asking questions like "will you ever go back" you have no idea where "back" is or what it was like. In DAO you had at least a few moments of a normal life before everything went downhill.
I like your "Partial Origin / Varying Introductions" version. Keeping the inquisitor would do the trick too I guess, but they won't do that.
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Post by eriador117 on Sept 6, 2017 10:50:00 GMT
Some good examples there. These could be feasible regarding costs and resources etc. I'd like the Inquisitor back, but I'm not holding out much hope for that one, unless we have some sections where there are dual protagonists.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 6, 2017 12:02:23 GMT
I didn't mind DA2/DAI jumping in after the Lothering/Conclave event but i wouldn't be completely opposed to jumping in before especially if it's to witness the disemboweling of the inquisitor. You'd probably encounter making the player feel completely powerless(based on Lothering/Conclave) if its that sort of event but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I can see the benefit of a single scenario without the divergence of potential partial origins. I'd prefer the focus to be on providing potential variance during journey for any origins provided. Clearly that also comes with costs & degrees of feasibility.
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Post by Sah291 on Sept 6, 2017 16:06:55 GMT
I wouldn't mind the DAI in medias res style opening, if only they could have sprinkled more opportunities throughout the game to have meaningful dialogues with companions/NPCs about your background, like the one you have with Josephine. Companions should be showing some interest in your character's past, asking questions, etc. And more relevant side quests that give character development opportunities, or put your class/race/background to use.
I did like the dialogue perks system they had in Inquisition...I felt like that was a good way to make your character's background matter. Like, if you were a human noble, you should have some special dialogue options. Or if you are an elf, you should have more insight into elven culture. It was great also how these weren't necessarily tied to the race/class you picked at the start of the game, so you could have interesting combinations, like a dwarf with magic knowledge, or any combo you wanted.
So I guess, I'm saying, I liked some of what they came up with already, there just needs to be more of it.
I also like your party/diverging conversations idea. That's more or less what I'm getting at, but it isn't necessary to limit it to a prologue or origin scenario, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 16:12:58 GMT
I assume it will be like DA3, different lines of dialogue here and there. They did an absolutely astounding job in SWTOR, and if I could get either class or racial story like that in their other games folded into the main games events, I'd be happy, because every new character has his or her own story to follow. If they can't afford it, the gender-class-race specific dialogues once in a while are alright with me.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 6, 2017 22:54:20 GMT
What sort of beginning do you want in da4? And what do you think is actually possible? I want the Inquisitor to be the protagonist in DA4. Failing that, of the three kinds you offer I think 'Same Beginning with Diverging Conversations' would work best. Well...they cut the Inky's hand right of. When I first saw that, I actually thought it was a bug because they didn't bother to tell the player that was going to happen. I could see Inky be more of a Obi-Wan role sending the player off to Tevinter to help find a way to stop Solas, because having Inky completely disappear would feel awkward--especially how Trespasser ends.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 6, 2017 23:54:56 GMT
I want the Inquisitor to be the protagonist in DA4. Failing that, of the three kinds you offer I think 'Same Beginning with Diverging Conversations' would work best. Well...they cut the Inky's hand right of. When I first saw that, I actually thought it was a bug because they didn't bother to tell the player that was going to happen. I could see Inky be more of a Obi-Wan role sending the player off to Tevinter to help find a way to stop Solas, because having Inky completely disappear would feel awkward--especially how Trespasser ends. I don't see why the Inquisitor losing their hand means they can't be a hero anymore. Patrick Weekes when asked about that even said that wasn't the reason they lost their hand since "there are many amputee heroes". They could always just give the Inquisitor a prosthetic limb, even work that into the story with the Inquisitor dealing with that and even serves as a perfect excuse to start back at Level 1 since they need to learn how to fight again from scratch.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 7, 2017 0:04:35 GMT
Well...they cut the Inky's hand right of. When I first saw that, I actually thought it was a bug because they didn't bother to tell the player that was going to happen. I could see Inky be more of a Obi-Wan role sending the player off to Tevinter to help find a way to stop Solas, because having Inky completely disappear would feel awkward--especially how Trespasser ends. I don't see why the Inquisitor losing their hand means they can't be a hero anymore. Patrick Weekes when asked about that even said that wasn't the reason they lost their hand since "there are many amputee heroes". They could always just give the Inquisitor a prosthetic limb, even work that into the story with the Inquisitor dealing with that and even serves as a perfect excuse to start back at Level 1 since they need to learn how to fight again from scratch. They'll have to explain prosthetic limbs, then; which I don't think exists in the universe. Plus, it's irrevleant since they've confirmed that the previous protagonist will never get a true sequel.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 7, 2017 0:11:15 GMT
I don't see why the Inquisitor losing their hand means they can't be a hero anymore. Patrick Weekes when asked about that even said that wasn't the reason they lost their hand since "there are many amputee heroes". They could always just give the Inquisitor a prosthetic limb, even work that into the story with the Inquisitor dealing with that and even serves as a perfect excuse to start back at Level 1 since they need to learn how to fight again from scratch. They'll have to explain prosthetic limbs, then; which I don't think exists in the universe. Plus, it's irrevleant since they've confirmed that the previous protagonist will never get a true sequel. Prosthetic limbs existed in our own medieval times, and we didn't have dwarves, qunari, or magic. Plus Bioware has already considered the prospect between The Iron Bull almost having a prosthetic arm to the prosthetic you get if you become a Red Jenny so it wouldn't be a leap at all. Maybe they'll change their minds, especially if enough people like the idea.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 7, 2017 5:24:33 GMT
Yes, OP, I would love to see this. There absolutely could a middle ground. Five or ten minutes of some ground story before shite hits the fan.
I rather experience some of the backstory than just talk about it later with a couple of lines of dialogue. Ideally, I would like both.
I could understand why they did it media res in DAI because your PC was not supposed to remember what happened, and that was a big plot hook. So, okay. Other than that, let me run about the "village" for minute. Get acclimated. Have something with which to compare the two states of being. One pre crisis and one post crisis.
plsandty,biovar! *and in the name of whatever gods you worship, biovar, just put the stash box and mirror of transformation in the game from the beginning. it does not need to be more difficult than it needs to be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 22:13:47 GMT
I love OP's post and also wish to add that for me having various introductions has greatly increased the replay value in Origins since I wanted to experience all backgrounds. Having these backstories has also influenced how my characters reacted to the world without forcing it or stretching my imagination. Each experience felt slightly different due to my character's outlook on the world and the game each time felt different even if I was doing the same story line once they got merged into main plot.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 14, 2017 1:26:22 GMT
For those who want the inquisitor back as the protagonist of da4, what sort of beginning would you imagine them having?
Arguably they don't need am introduction phase since they have the whole of inquisition as one, but they need something to get new players into the loop about what's going on and what their character is about. An inquisitor comes into the gane with a pre existing goal so they'll have to establish that.
Hmm...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 14, 2017 1:54:30 GMT
For those who want the inquisitor back as the protagonist of da4, what sort of beginning would you imagine them having? Arguably they don't need am introduction phase since they have the whole of inquisition as one, but they need something to get new players into the loop about what's going on and what their character is about. An inquisitor comes into the gane with a pre existing goal so they'll have to establish that. Hmm... Perhaps the game can start with the Inquisitor and those who we start the game with are crossing the border into Tevinter, either sneaking across or in an official capacity. As you travel, there can be a NPC filling the Inquisitor in on what they've learned so far and the Inquisitor can say and ask a few things. The topics can involve what Solas has been up to since Trespasser, the current situation in Tevinter, and even more personal stuff like perhaps how the Inquisitor's prosthetic arm is doing. That way it sets the stuff up for the new player while still creating a good intro for those returning since stuff will have happened between Trespasser and then. Then of course something happens getting us into combat and the game begins. That's just one guess of course. They could do other stuff. Like maybe they are at Dorian's place in Minrathous already and they have the set up there and then things go down or something.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 14, 2017 5:33:07 GMT
So working off the assumption that the majority if not the whole of DA4 is going to be taking place in northern Thedas, my big thing is that I want the PC to be a native of norther Thedas, whether it be from Rivain, Antiva, the Anderfels, or, preferably, Tevinter itself. I don't imagine Antiva is going to be an option if for no other reason than that I don't see them giving us a PC with an Antivan accent.
I would also like there to be at least an option for the human PC to not be from a noble background, even an impoverished one like Hawke was. I would like there to be a non-dalish option for elves, be it free city or slave.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2017 11:24:53 GMT
I think it would work best if the starting point was as a slave as that would allow you to be any race or class. I know people have argued that dwarves are not slaves in the Imperium but that seems stupid to me considering they have casteless in their own culture who are effectively no better than slaves and in fact are arguably a lot worse off. So there is no reason why a casteless dwarf wouldn't be a slave in Tevinter, may be even selling themselves into slavery for a better life. As Calpernia's story shows, you can still be a mage and a slave.
I'd really like the human protagonist for once to be from the lower ranks of society. The human origin in DAO had them as the second most powerful noble family in Ferelden and the human mage was an Amell, so nobility. Even Hawke turned out to be from a noble background and once they had bought back their estate were treated as equals by the rest of the nobles, even snooty Orlesians like Duke Prosper. Trevellyan came from a noble background as well and was even distantly related to Dorian's family. So I'd really like to see the humans start off at the bottom just like everyone else.
There could be slight variations according to your race as to why you were a slave in the first place, or may be they could let you choose the reason for yourself, but it would allow for there to be a bit of an origin type introduction into the world but without the expenditure on resources that having completely different ones would entail.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 14, 2017 11:39:56 GMT
Somehow I had it in my head that they don't keep dwarves as slaves as Tevinter to avoid offending Orzamar so they can keep the lyrium flowing. Can't seem to find a source on that, though.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2017 13:43:51 GMT
It works both ways. Tevinter is probably Orzammar's best client, so they would likely turn a blind eye to casteless dwarf slaves or even surface dwellers. After all in the eyes of Orzammar they no longer exist.
Also Kal Sharok would probably be only too willing to supply any deficit and they are much closer to Tevinter, so Orzammar really needs to keep Tevinter on side.
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Post by kalasaurus on Sept 14, 2017 14:58:40 GMT
Same Beginning with Diverging Conversations
- More limited Divergence: The backgrounds start at the same location with the same npcs but have differing conversations/interactions depending on background. Each with a dedicated npc for their background. Since there are no new unique maps and mostly the same content we’ll say 4-5 backgrounds. Some details of background set.
- Example: A Magister is having a fabulous party, the pc can be in attendance as – A servant/slave who works in the household(Human/Elf), a guest from the Ambassadoria (Dwarf), Imperial Guard as security(??), or the Magister’s own apprentice (Human/Elf). The apprentice can talk to the magister, the Dwarf to a fellow representative, the slave to another slave etc. And they all can speak to a handful of npcs who react differently depending on their identity. One of them could be Dorian or Maevaris. During the party there is an attack from assassins/mercenaries presumed to be working for a rival magister, the host is killed and the attackers are looking for something. The pc finds their way to the magister’s vaults finding the artefact that the intruders were looking for and fleeing with an inquisition agent who recruits them to the main quest.
I like this idea. It would be interesting to replay the same beginning from different viewpoints depending on who you choose as your character. Wouldn't have to be a long segment just enough to set up your character. In DAI is was harder to fix the character and actually care about the people in the conclave. This above would fix that next time. I agree. I'd be interested in replaying the beginning for each origin- some intriguing roleplay potential with that.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 15, 2017 2:42:34 GMT
The slave rising from nothing to leader is something I've seen time and time again. Spartacus's story is well known and I don't want a rehash of it.
The player character, first and foremost should fit the theme of the story. In Mass Effect, we had many themes: "It's up to you (and your allies)" "You can't save everyone", and "You always need to think three steps ahead, particularly when dealing with galaxy crushing horrors."
What would be the theme of DA4? If the theme is something like "Anyone can save the world if they try hard enough" then the protagonist could really be anyone at all. A random schmuck, similar to the Inquisitor at the start of the game. If the theme is more like "If you want to save the world, you'll need to navigate powerful friends to your advantage" then you're going to need someone who would curry respect among the power players.
Personally, my idea of a great theme is: "Among the chaos of the world, a strong leader can restore order and destroy his enemies. But saving a nation takes more than that." Which would require the protagonist to be someone of forceful personality, a frontline generalissimo type similar to Emperor Aurelian, Belisarius, or Marius. The NPCs would need to be people powerful enough in their own right, but also complement the protagonists's skills.
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Post by Solas on Sept 15, 2017 7:30:36 GMT
idk but if Inky doesn't return as PC and race selection returns, I wanna be a City Elf
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 15, 2017 12:26:11 GMT
The slave rising from nothing to leader is something I've seen time and time again. Spartacus's story is well known and I don't want a rehash of it. The player character, first and foremost should fit the theme of the story. In Mass Effect, we had many themes: "It's up to you (and your allies)" "You can't save everyone", and "You always need to think three steps ahead, particularly when dealing with galaxy crushing horrors." What would be the theme of DA4? If the theme is something like "Anyone can save the world if they try hard enough" then the protagonist could really be anyone at all. A random schmuck, similar to the Inquisitor at the start of the game. If the theme is more like "If you want to save the world, you'll need to navigate powerful friends to your advantage" then you're going to need someone who would curry respect among the power players. Personally, my idea of a great theme is: "Among the chaos of the world, a strong leader can restore order and destroy his enemies. But saving a nation takes more than that." Which would require the protagonist to be someone of forceful personality, a frontline generalissimo type similar to Emperor Aurelian, Belisarius, or Marius. The NPCs would need to be people powerful enough in their own right, but also complement the protagonists's skills. Here's my thing on that side of the equation; I'm kind of sick and tired of restoring order. Granted, really, only Inquisition was about that. Origins was more, doing whatever you had to do to save the world, damn the consequences. DA2's theme was more about deconstructing the notion of the Big Bad by showing that it's more about a perfect storm of combustible elements than any sinister plot that causes shit to hit the fan and the individuals involved that seem important in hindsight were just kind of there. But Inquisition was all about restoring and maintaining order to the point of heavy-handedness, and that more than anything is what soured me on the game. Doesn't matter what you think of the Chantry and the damage it's done; it's the only thing that holds all these nations together and is too important of a stabilizing element to allow to fall. Doesn't matter what you think about the Orlesian Empire, letting it fall to chaos is gonna cause too many problems for you so you have to play by their rules to save it. Only situation where you don't have to maintain the status quo in some form is with the Wardens because Bioware seem dead set on turning us against them for some reason. Cullen, Josephine, Cassandra, Varric, Sera, and Vivienne are all about restoring the world to the way it was with minor changes. Bull, who belongs to a nation dedicated to changing and replacing the established order, is exceedingly apprehensive about actually implementing that change and prefers things stay the way they are. Cole & Blackwall are more about personal reasons; general doing good and redemption. Leliana is in favor of maintaining the existing power structures with sweeping reform, but her being capable of that comes off as less an endorsement of those reforms and more a side effect of Leliana being a creator's pet. Dorian is the only Andrastian companion who endorses getting rid of the Chantry all together, and while the Inquisitor can personally agree with the sentiment, it isn't an ideal that you can actually implement and act on. And while Solas of course is in favor of the most wide spread, fundamental change out of everyone, 1) he's the bad guy, and 2) his idea of change is just re-instituting a previous status quo and restoring something that doesn't exist, something the game hammered home was pointless and futile with Corypheus, who had near identical motives. And all three of Corypheus' chief minions, Calpernia, Florianne, and Samson, are ultimately motivated by being in favor of massive political and social change and upheaval. Granted for Florianne this is a purely selfish power-grab, but Calpernia and Samson genuinely both want to change the world for the better as they see it and are framed as monsters - however tragic - for it. So, yeah. Inquisition is all about maintaining and restoring order and I kind of really want to go in another direction. The last two years have done nothing but make me more anti-establishment in my world view so I'm really hoping that instead of telling us about how all these deeply corrupt, outdated systems and organizations are ultimately to everyone's benefit and the right thing to do is to work for slow, gradual, incremental change from the inside, we instead get to take a sledge hammer and a blowtorch to the whole thing. And that is a massive part of the reason of why I do not want the Inquisitor to make a return as the playable character. Because ultimately, whatever stated opinions they have, they are agents of order, stability, and protecting the establishment and status quo. And that is not something I have any desire to do again.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 15, 2017 18:45:09 GMT
Here's my thing on that side of the equation; I'm kind of sick and tired of restoring order. (clipped for space) So... destroy the world out of spite? Building an entire nation is an incredibly difficult thing. A world in chaos and ruin...you might as well join Solas.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Sept 15, 2017 20:30:57 GMT
Here's my thing on that side of the equation; I'm kind of sick and tired of restoring order. (clipped for space) So... destroy the world out of spite? Building an entire nation is an incredibly difficult thing. A world in chaos and ruin...you might as well join Solas. At least more fun... So: not really a world destroyer (I don't like to play as evil), but someone like Hawke. A man, who does things, and the world change. Or not.
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