The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 15:53:55 GMT
Well this looks promising.
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 7, 2017 15:59:38 GMT
I read that as synonymous with "we're looking into it" and "those changes might need a patch."
Again, I don't think they can change any damage value server side like they could with ME3. Perhaps some, but it seems they're having problems.
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Post by Arkhne on Sept 7, 2017 16:12:52 GMT
I feel like most of you have forgotten that it was the same in ME3, pretty much every SMG outclassed pretty much every full-auto AR (hell, if you were to remove burst fire on the SHURIKEN and make it full auto, it would also outclass most of them). BioWare HATES ARs with a passion, it is pretty clear from their history.
Even in ME2, where it was less of a problem because of defense type damage variables between individual guns, SMGs and Pistols TENDED to outclass ARs (Though, this was mostly because ARs had a balanced damage mod, and Pistols were armour killers, which all the dangerous enemies had, and because the Locust was the Godgun, thing makes the hurricane in ME3 look like the Shuriken). At least in ME2 to damage modifiers vs defenses reinforced ARs as the jack-of-all-trades guns, hell, if they brought back the Revenant's damage mod vs armour(1.4x, iirc), nobody would complain anymore, it would have a niche.
This is all ignoring the weight arguement, which Pistols (and SMGs) will ALWAYS win. The entire weight system is just the final nail in the coffin for ARs. That said, I'd rather take a Halberd or a Sandstorm than the Sidewinder, or a Revenant rather than a Charger, but when you have Hurricane, Silhesh, Rozerad and Equalizer available, what is the point of any AR other than "not using the same gun in every match", which is something starting to bother me. What guns do I have on this character? Oh, Equalizer/Scattershot and Rozerad, I don't feel like playing them now. It really saps a lot of the enjoyment out of the game when the same 3 or so guns are UNIVERSALLY OP.
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 16:36:10 GMT
There's definitely a history but it's never been this pronounced before. In ME2 the Locust was insane but it was released as a way to balance the non-soldier kits that didn't have access to ARs until after the collector ship mission. The rest of the SMGs where good against shields only. For ARs we had the Revenant which was excellent on the soldier and the Mattock which was just as godly as the Locust was.
In ME3, early game, SMGs were hit hard by the 50 points of armour damage reduction and had no way to mitigate it which left a niche for the ARs to live. The Hurricane balanced its high damage with its incredible recoil which is really how it should be. We also had the Harrier, Saber, Typhoon, Particle Rifle and Lancer which all kicked serious ass.
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Post by poultrymancer on Sept 7, 2017 16:57:24 GMT
There's definitely a history but it's never been this pronounced before. In ME2 the Locust was insane but it was released as a way to balance the non-soldier kits that didn't have access to ARs until after the collector ship mission. The rest of the SMGs where good against shields only. For ARs we had the Revenant which was excellent on the soldier and the Mattock which was just as godly as the Locust was. In ME3, early game, SMGs were hit hard by the 50 points of armour damage reduction and had no way to mitigate it which left a niche for the ARs to live. The Hurricane balanced its high damage with its incredible recoil which is really how it should be. We also had the Harrier, Saber, Typhoon, Particle Rifle and Lancer which all kicked serious ass. I'll still never understand why they did what they did to the Mattock between 2 and 3. Had hoped it'd return to its former glory in MEA, but that obviously didn't happen. They might as well have just made it PC-exclusive as of the ME3 iteration, 'cause since then it's been an overstuffed bag of rotten whale dick markedly subpar on consoles unless you have a controller that'll convert it to auto. *Edited to be more constructive, in case the devs read past the first post.
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 17:02:27 GMT
I had hoped the Halberd was to be the second coming of ME2's glorious Mattock but... yeah. "Overstuffed bag of rotten whale dick" "Markedly sub par" sums that one up pretty well too.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Sept 7, 2017 17:46:51 GMT
ARs also need to FEEL like they are doing SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than a pistol/smg, ESPECIALLY beyond close range.
I don't know anything about real-world ballistics and I'm sure some gun-nut is going to tell me about some pistol the Israelis use that is accurate out to 1,000 meters and kills rhinos... but, in a game, I feel like an assault RIFLE is what should be doing that. And a pistol should be only REALLY good up close.
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 17:51:58 GMT
ARs also need to FEEL like they are doing SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than a pistol/smg, ESPECIALLY beyond close range. I don't know anything about real-world ballistics and I'm sure some gun-nut is going to tell me about some pistol the Israelis use that is accurate out to 1,000 meters and kills rhinos... but, in a game, I feel like an assault RIFLE is what should be doing that. And a pistol should be only REALLY good up close. I am very much a real world gun nut. You're not wrong.
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Post by poultrymancer on Sept 7, 2017 17:59:22 GMT
ARs also need to FEEL like they are doing SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than a pistol/smg, ESPECIALLY beyond close range. I don't know anything about real-world ballistics and I'm sure some gun-nut is going to tell me about some pistol the Israelis use that is accurate out to 1,000 meters and kills rhinos... but, in a game, I feel like an assault RIFLE is what should be doing that. And a pistol should be only REALLY good up close. I am very much a real world gun nut. You're not wrong. Poor rhinos.
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Post by Arkhne on Sept 7, 2017 18:10:53 GMT
I am very much a real world gun nut. You're not wrong. Poor rhinos. Poor gun, imagine how it feels, knowing that it has murdered a helpless, endangered animal.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Sept 7, 2017 18:11:34 GMT
So the Israelis really do have a rhino-killing pistol?
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, MY PEOPLE!
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Post by gnperdue on Sept 7, 2017 18:47:22 GMT
Real world mechanics are a poor guide here. Remember, the guns in mass effect basically use, well, mass effect fields and act more like rail guns, in a sense. In their physics, there is no reason ARs should do more damage than pistols. What you would expect instead would be better accuracy.
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Post by modusmoriendi on Sept 7, 2017 18:59:06 GMT
So the Israelis really do have a rhino-killing pistol? KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, MY PEOPLE! I'm sure it's possible (with skill and/or luck) kill a rhino using a Desert Eagle with appropriate ammo, but that alone doesn't qualify it as a rhino gun. The pertinent question is never "can I kill X with Y?", but "can I reliably kill X with Y, and be sure to remain alive and uninjured afterwards?" For which the answer is: "NO! Don't even try!" As ARs go, there's a reason why some variant thereof is the "standard issue" gun everywhere. And that reason is not "because they suck".
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 18:59:40 GMT
Real world mechanics are a poor guide here. Remember, the guns in mass effect basically use, well, mass effect fields and act more like rail guns, in a sense. In their physics, there is no reason ARs should do more damage than pistols. What you would expect instead would be better accuracy. Incorrect. From the ME1 codex: "A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage. Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unobtainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity." The fact that assault rifles are larger means they can mitigate more recoil and can therefore have increased slug velocity. High damage pistols should be unmanageable. Fuck I'm a geek.
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 7, 2017 19:02:18 GMT
Real world mechanics are a poor guide here. Remember, the guns in mass effect basically use, well, mass effect fields and act more like rail guns, in a sense. In their physics, there is no reason ARs should do more damage than pistols. What you would expect instead would be better accuracy. If that were true, ARs wouldn't exist in the universe at all. But this is a game and they put in another class of weapons to incorporate additional choice in gamplay for pros/cons on another set of weapons. They failed at that miserably with this class and should fix it.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Sept 7, 2017 19:02:26 GMT
As ARs go, there's a reason why some variant thereof is the "standard issue" gun everywhere. And that reason is not "because they suck". Basically this is all I care about.
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 19:06:17 GMT
As ARs go, there's a reason why some variant thereof is the "standard issue" gun everywhere. And that reason is not "because they suck". The purpose of a soldier's side arm is "to fight your way back to your rifle". Anyone who's not squeamish should look up wound characteristics of pistol vs rifle rounds. The difference is remarkable.
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Post by Arkhne on Sept 7, 2017 21:46:15 GMT
As ARs go, there's a reason why some variant thereof is the "standard issue" gun everywhere. And that reason is not "because they suck". The purpose of a soldier's side arm is "to fight your way back to your rifle". Anyone who's not squeamish should look up wound characteristics of pistol vs rifle rounds. The difference is remarkable. I admit to not looking, however, I assume that it is something more akin to serrated vs sharp knife, one is for tearing and causing damage, one is for a clean slice?
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The Joe-Man
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Post by The Joe-Man on Sept 7, 2017 21:55:25 GMT
The purpose of a soldier's side arm is "to fight your way back to your rifle". Anyone who's not squeamish should look up wound characteristics of pistol vs rifle rounds. The difference is remarkable. I admit to not looking, however, I assume that it is something more akin to serrated vs sharp knife, one is for tearing and causing damage, one is for a clean slice? For reference versus ballistic gel. The first video is a pistol round (9mm) the second is a rifle round (5.56 NATO). Not at all gory but you can use your imagination.
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Post by modusmoriendi on Sept 8, 2017 0:24:40 GMT
I admit to not looking, however, I assume that it is something more akin to serrated vs sharp knife, one is for tearing and causing damage, one is for a clean slice? For reference versus ballistic gel. The first video is a pistol round (9mm) the second is a rifle round (5.56 NATO). Not at all gory but you can use your imagination. Note that the 5.56 NATO is half the weight of the 9 mm pistol round. Here's a rifle bullet of similar weight; note how it passes through the gel in a much straighter line, even flattened. It'd easily pass through the next gel block. And this is the slightly heavier 7.62 mm NATO round, used in automatic battle rifles like the G3: Before you fall asleep tonight, imagine replacing the gel with similarly dense human flesh...
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RonnieBlastoff
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Post by RonnieBlastoff on Sept 8, 2017 1:03:15 GMT
It isn't just pistols.
Inferno is the best semi auto assault rifle Shadow is the most accurate full auto assualt rifle Hurricane is the best RoF assault rifle All burst fire weapons suffer from 2 burst per second, so without a patch I don't see this getting fixed(may be wrong idk)
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Post by JRandall0308 on Sept 8, 2017 1:05:04 GMT
I want to imagine it impacting Kett Chosen except none of my MEAMP ARs are accurate enough to land any shots.
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akots
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Post by akots on Sept 8, 2017 1:41:22 GMT
AR vs pistols is another purely schizophrenic example of game design by recent Bioware. IDK how pistols, being smaller and lighter as they are, have more damage and less recoil than heavier AR? The only thing they can have is higher rof and maybe slightly better accuracy which is again not much of a case in Meda. Even space magic gets perverted inside out these days.
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Post by JRandall0308 on Sept 8, 2017 2:07:19 GMT
How does a pistol ever have better accuracy than a rifle with a longer barrel? Or do I just not understand guns?
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Post by Arkhne on Sept 8, 2017 2:21:28 GMT
How does a pistol ever have better accuracy than a rifle with a longer barrel? Or do I just not understand guns? I don't claim to understand guns myself, however, I would also assume any Pistol with power even comprobable to (let alone exceeding) an AR would also have MASSIVE amounts of recoil, as, if I understand it correctly, a heavy gun is easier to manage recoil-wise. So, I just don't see any part of ME's Pistols to be possible. (Don't listen to me, I've never fired a gun)
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