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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 17, 2017 13:51:59 GMT
That's your wgole argument in the thread I quoted. If that's not what you intended, try communicating more clearly. Our job isn't to read your mind. Only what you write. For someone who ask to communicate more clearly, explain me what means "wgole". Now if you don't understand, or rather if you read with your biased mind it's not my problem. Typical response from someone who find they have no ground to stand on. Yes, just keep blustering on instead of admitting you were wrong. For someone who like to use the word "bias", you seem unable to spot your own. Dont blame me if I dont give you any serious responses from now on.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 17, 2017 13:55:35 GMT
I still disagree on this point. I dont think so many people would be asking for them to be included if they added nothing. Lol, can you really not think of any other reason for why people would want prostitutes in a game? I could be wrong, but I dont think the typical user of these forums is a hormonal 12 year old... I want brothels in the game for the same reason I want other "mature" topics in the game.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 14:03:58 GMT
Lol, can you really not think of any other reason for why people would want prostitutes in a game? I could be wrong, but I dont think the typical user of these forums is a hormonal 12 year old... I want brothels in the game for the same reason I want other "mature" topics in the game. What if they have a brothel, but you can't patronise it, and every time you go in there, you get graphic, detailed scenes and quests dealing with the abuse and exploitation of the workers?
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 17, 2017 14:09:44 GMT
I could be wrong, but I dont think the typical user of these forums is a hormonal 12 year old... I want brothels in the game for the same reason I want other "mature" topics in the game. What if they have a brothel, but you can't patronise it, and every time you go in there, you get graphic, detailed scenes and quests dealing with the abuse and exploitation of the workers? I think you’re walking into a trap, Panda...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 14:20:40 GMT
What if they have a brothel, but you can't patronise it, and every time you go in there, you get graphic, detailed scenes and quests dealing with the abuse and exploitation of the workers? I think you’re walking into a trap, Panda... I mean, that would presume I was under any illusion of changing his mind.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 17, 2017 14:24:11 GMT
I could be wrong, but I dont think the typical user of these forums is a hormonal 12 year old... I want brothels in the game for the same reason I want other "mature" topics in the game. What if they have a brothel, but you can't patronise it, and every time you go in there, you get graphic, detailed scenes and quests dealing with the abuse and exploitation of the workers? Sounds a bit too far for my tastes. Afterall, DA:O talked about rape in several conversations, codexes, and quests, but we never had to watch the act. To be honest, I'm confused what point you're trying to make with your question. Are you saying it should be all or nothing? No middle ground?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 14:53:35 GMT
What if they have a brothel, but you can't patronise it, and every time you go in there, you get graphic, detailed scenes and quests dealing with the abuse and exploitation of the workers? Sounds a bit too far for my tastes. Afterall, DA:O talked about rape in several conversations, codexes, and quests, but we never had to watch the act. To be honest, I'm confused what point you're trying to make with your question. Are you saying it should be all or nothing? No middle ground? I'm just curious about how people would react if the titillating aspect of the brothels (ie, the ability to patronize them and watch suggestive cutscenes) was removed, and the nastier aspects of the sex industry were played up. My suspicion is that a lot of people who clamored for brothel content in this very thread would decry such a depiction as "sjw feminazi propaganda". Sex work is a multifaceted issue with a complicated history. A lot of prostitutes are victims of sex trafficking, many are even children. Even if you haven't been forced into it, it's hard and dangerous work, and once you're in it, stigma can make it very difficult to get out again. But historically it was also a way for women to gain independence in a world where few options were available to them. Brothels and the women who ran them were integral to the colonization of the American Frontier, but how many westerns do you see about brothel madams funding schools and building communities? There's a lot of different directions BioWare could take the issue, if they really cared. Some can be grim and some can be lighthearted, but I don't think many of the players clamouring for an in-game brothel would like most of them. I don't think they would like walking into the brothel and discovering that some of the workers are 12 or younger. I don't think they would like a scene where their partner cries. They wouldn't like a brothel where the prostitutes are old, or unattractive. I don't think they'd like a scene where they get kicked out by the bouncer for being disrespectful. They probably wouldn't like a quest that deals with a woman losing her job as a teacher because someone revealed to the village that she previously worked as a prostitute. I don't think they'd like a scene where they overhear two prostitutes complaining about how the player character is gross and they don't enjoy having sex with them. Some of them probably wouldn't even be that fond of a positive depiction of prostitution, where the brothel and the women in it are regarded as an important part of the community and economy. Most of the people asking for an in-game brothel aren't asking for in-depth examination of sex work and the people that perform it. They want the fantasy that BioWare and other developers have been peddling, of a house full of beautiful women (and in BioWare's case, men), who find the player character attractive, no matter how you designed them, and are enthusiastic about having sex.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 17, 2017 15:42:51 GMT
Sounds a bit too far for my tastes. Afterall, DA:O talked about rape in several conversations, codexes, and quests, but we never had to watch the act. To be honest, I'm confused what point you're trying to make with your question. Are you saying it should be all or nothing? No middle ground? I'm just curious about how people would react if the titillating aspect of the brothels (ie, the ability to patronize them and watch suggestive cutscenes) was removed, and the nastier aspects of the sex industry were played up. My suspicion is that a lot of people who clamored for brothel content in this very thread would decry such a depiction as "sjw feminazi propaganda". *snip* Most of the people asking for an in-game brothel aren't asking for in-depth examination of sex work and the people that perform it. They want the fantasy that BioWare and other developers have been peddling, of a house full of beautiful women (and in BioWare's case, men), who find the player character attractive, no matter how you designed them, and are enthusiastic about having sex. You could be right. I mean people don't play games or watch movies to be preached at. There comes a fine line where writers need to decide how much they want to entertain and how much they want to "teach". I think most people are aware of the dark underbelly of nearly all things in life, but if they want to forget those things and play a more light hearted version to distract them from the nastiness of the real world, there is nothing iherently wrong with that. Would I play the game you're describing? Probably. It sounds like a true dark fantasy game. But in all reality a game like that wpuld never get published by a company like EA. It would get attacked from both sides of the political spectrum. However, I will gladly take the watered down PC version of brothels rather than none at all.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2017 16:13:18 GMT
The Brothel was an interesting part of DA2.
In addition, that you can see, that the whiny Gamlen spend his coins in the Rose, you can see Orana there, if you just let her go... It's maybe just a nuance, but still, add to the mood.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 17, 2017 18:40:04 GMT
If you don't want people to talk down to you, it helps not to make arguments like "women are ugly" and "gay people aren't being hidden away". Because things like that are like a neon sign saying that you shouldn't be taken seriously. The sooner you stop misrepresenting things people say, the sooner people will start to think your opinion matters. The sooner you stop getting bent out of shape because people call out your asinine arguments, the sooner people will start taking you seriously.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2017 18:51:38 GMT
There's a lot of different directions BioWare could take the issue, if they really cared. Some can be grim and some can be lighthearted, but I don't think many of the players clamouring for an in-game brothel would like most of them. I don't think they would like walking into the brothel and discovering that some of the workers are 12 or younger. I don't think they would like a scene where their partner cries. They wouldn't like a brothel where the prostitutes are old, or unattractive. I don't think they'd like a scene where they get kicked out by the bouncer for being disrespectful. They probably wouldn't like a quest that deals with a woman losing her job as a teacher because someone revealed to the village that she previously worked as a prostitute. I don't think they'd like a scene where they overhear two prostitutes complaining about how the player character is gross and they don't enjoy having sex with them. Some of them probably wouldn't even be that fond of a positive depiction of prostitution, where the brothel and the women in it are regarded as an important part of the community and economy. Actually, you had to pay top coin in the Blooming Rose to get access to attractive prostitutes. And it was pretty clear from talking to Zevran that the other children of prostitutes (like himself) didn't meet a very good end. Also, teachers? Schools? Public education? What the hell kind of pseudo-medieval setting do you think we're running here? Next you'll be suggesting that the people of Thedas believe in futuristic concepts like gravity and oral hygiene.
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Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 17, 2017 19:29:58 GMT
There's a lot of different directions BioWare could take the issue, if they really cared. Some can be grim and some can be lighthearted, but I don't think many of the players clamouring for an in-game brothel would like most of them. I don't think they would like walking into the brothel and discovering that some of the workers are 12 or younger. I don't think they would like a scene where their partner cries. They wouldn't like a brothel where the prostitutes are old, or unattractive. I don't think they'd like a scene where they get kicked out by the bouncer for being disrespectful. They probably wouldn't like a quest that deals with a woman losing her job as a teacher because someone revealed to the village that she previously worked as a prostitute. I don't think they'd like a scene where they overhear two prostitutes complaining about how the player character is gross and they don't enjoy having sex with them. Some of them probably wouldn't even be that fond of a positive depiction of prostitution, where the brothel and the women in it are regarded as an important part of the community and economy. Actually, you had to pay top coin in the Blooming Rose to get access to attractive prostitutes. And it was pretty clear from talking to Zevran that the other children of prostitutes (like himself) didn't meet a very good end. Also, teachers? Schools? Public education? What the hell kind of pseudo-medieval setting do you think we're running here? Next you'll be suggesting that the people of Thedas believe in futuristic concepts like gravity and oral hygiene. Schools or tutors are not a modern concept - public schools existed as far ancient Greece, AFAIK. And the people of Thedas do seem to be better educated compared to time we could deem as vaguely analogous to ours, otherwise Varric would never become a famous schlock writer.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2017 19:36:52 GMT
I know there are tutors. There are numerous references in codexes to tutors. There's even a university. But these are things generally limited to the rich - the nobility, children of merchants, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm talking about a public education system that guarantees schooling for every child in Thedas regardless of class status or income. Do you think the average Orlesian or Fereldan peasant has any kind of education? Maybe if they're in the Circle or the Templar Order, or if they dedicate their lives to the Chantry.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 17, 2017 19:42:15 GMT
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/EducationCommoners Commoners appear to receive little formal education in most countries in Thedas and many may be illiterate. City elves receive even less education than human commoners. As such, dwarven runes may be used in place of writing in some cases. In other instances tally marks may be used to delineate locations or distances.
However, in sharp contrast, those who work as servants in noble estates appear to receive extensive education, at least enough that is sufficient to perform their tasks.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 17, 2017 19:49:57 GMT
I know there are tutors. There are numerous references in codexes to tutors. There's even a university. I'm talking about a public education system that guarantees schooling for every child in Thedas regardless of class status or income. Public education doesn't have to guarantee schooling of every child in Thedas to not be public education. Just look at Roman education, which in itself was based on Greek, or literacy rates from Islamic Golden Age or China after invention of paper. Those might not have been systems as we understand them now, but nevertheless they ensured relatively high literacy rates among population.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2017 19:54:33 GMT
I think the people in Thedas generally possess basic literacy skills — how else would they read the Chant of Light? But that's about it.
As for those living in qunari lands, they would be taught the Qun and be able to read the teachings of Koslun. But a militant theocracy doesn't survive by encouraging free-thinkers.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2017 20:26:35 GMT
I think the people in Thedas generally possess basic literacy skills — how else would they read the Chant of Light? But that's about it. As for those living in qunari lands, they would be taught the Qun and be able to read the teachings of Koslun. But a militant theocracy doesn't survive by encouraging free-thinkers. Literacy rose dramatically in Europe once the printing press was invented and family Bibles became a thing. Given Varric and his books, it's pretty much a given they exist in Thedas. So yeah, I'd say that at least basic literacy is widespread in Thedas. Not universal, but enough that people can read the Chant of Light and thier local Chantry board. Maybe sign their name.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 956
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 17, 2017 20:43:25 GMT
Alternatively, they don't read the chant, they have it sung at them by members of the Chantry.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 17, 2017 21:10:21 GMT
-(_D_A_)-
This is a surprise. No brothels?
With EA's mandate to monetize games via loot boxes MTs, getting a card pack that unlocks the door to a brothel would be a no-brainer in fulfilling EA's loot vision. I see it as easy money for EA.
Hey, maybe MD's tweet was only a brain-fart.
Some links on EA game visions: (🌸=◡=)
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gateway beverage
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 17, 2017 21:14:42 GMT
-(_D_A_)-
This is a surprise. No brothels?
With EA's mandate to monetize games via loot boxes MTs, getting a card pack that unlocks the door to a brothel would be a no-brainer in fulfilling EA's loot vision. I see it as easy money for EA.
Hey, maybe MD's tweet was only a brain-fart.
Some links on EA game visions: (🌸=◡=)
Talk about fearmorngering.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 17, 2017 21:23:23 GMT
Heh, luckily there is no hard and fast rule that only games that include brothels are dark and/or good, interesting, etc. There is really no correlation, let alone causation. I mean brothels didn’t even play a major role in the first two games. You can make a dark and interesting game without them. You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker/controversial theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's something horrible to have in games. I mean, obviously it is horrible in real life, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet. -(_D_A_)-
Hm... Everything is subject to one rule.... make money. Which is why EA has this mandate about all games to contain "games-as-a-servive" elements. MTs to you and me.
Thus, making the theme lighter allows EA to get the ESRB rating that reaches the maximum target audience. Buying loot boxes via MTs introduces, oh, that subtle gambling addiction. I'm sure you heard of kids spending thousands.... A darker theme, while probably more accurate in terms of historical reference, adds nothing to their coffers.
Interesting, I can't quite get how Bio will handle MP in a DA game. ... never was fond of DAIMP at all. Bet you it will be awfully simplified to a ME3/A level.
(🌸=◡=)
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2017 21:48:43 GMT
I'm just curious about how people would react if the titillating aspect of the brothels (ie, the ability to patronize them and watch suggestive cutscenes) was removed, and the nastier aspects of the sex industry were played up. My suspicion is that a lot of people who clamored for brothel content in this very thread would decry such a depiction as "sjw feminazi propaganda". Sex work is a multifaceted issue with a complicated history. A lot of prostitutes are victims of sex trafficking, many are even children. Even if you haven't been forced into it, it's hard and dangerous work, and once you're in it, stigma can make it very difficult to get out again. But historically it was also a way for women to gain independence in a world where few options were available to them. Brothels and the women who ran them were integral to the colonization of the American Frontier, but how many westerns do you see about brothel madams funding schools and building communities? There's a lot of different directions BioWare could take the issue, if they really cared. Some can be grim and some can be lighthearted, but I don't think many of the players clamouring for an in-game brothel would like most of them. I don't think they would like walking into the brothel and discovering that some of the workers are 12 or younger. I don't think they would like a scene where their partner cries. They wouldn't like a brothel where the prostitutes are old, or unattractive. I don't think they'd like a scene where they get kicked out by the bouncer for being disrespectful. They probably wouldn't like a quest that deals with a woman losing her job as a teacher because someone revealed to the village that she previously worked as a prostitute. I don't think they'd like a scene where they overhear two prostitutes complaining about how the player character is gross and they don't enjoy having sex with them. Some of them probably wouldn't even be that fond of a positive depiction of prostitution, where the brothel and the women in it are regarded as an important part of the community and economy. Most of the people asking for an in-game brothel aren't asking for in-depth examination of sex work and the people that perform it. They want the fantasy that BioWare and other developers have been peddling, of a house full of beautiful women (and in BioWare's case, men), who find the player character attractive, no matter how you designed them, and are enthusiastic about having sex. Ignoring your broad generalization of the pro brothel sentiment... Personally I would welcome a darker more realistic depiction of such establishments, yes, offering several quests that tell the story of those who work there as well as those who spend their money there. I don't want brothels for nudity. I actually don't care about sex in games at all because I've never seen any that didn't make me laugh. The less you see the better in my book. Let's me imagine something good rather than having any sort of fantasy ruined by awkward puppets rubbing against each other in grotesque ways... and don't tell me the Ryder/Cora scene looks good because it does not. Still creepy AF with those facial animations. And Witcher 3 has the most cheesy 80s soft-core porn I've ever seen. I hope it was bad on purpose... I think Bioware won't ever do that either because these days such topics are a minefield. Which is probably why they went "nope" on it. Which is a shame because it's absolutely possible to give a NUANCED portrayal. I would NOT want brothels to turn into yet another "victimized women" preaching session (a trap I could easily imagine Bioware to fall into). I would want them to show why certain groups of people have a rough time (like slaves and elves of both sexes) but also show those who found a way to make a decent enough living because the alternative would have been worse. It's not black and white. I don't need my entertainment to shy away from difficult topics because no matter what is shown, it's already done through abstraction. These characters are not real. I think the great thing about fiction is that it let's us contemplate the horrors of the real world in a less soul shattering brutal way. The hero saves the day and we can all pretend light prevails over darkness. I can totally understand that some people don't want even that and rather escape into better worlds, not those that are just as shitty as the real one. And I like happy place games too. But Thedas is no such happy place. It's our real world dressed in different clothes. And if we're going to Tevinter, I don't want joke brothels anymore. Or pretend such places don't exist. Nor do I want them to be totally wretched. I really just want more places for good stories. Both sad and funny. I am pro brothel for this reason and because it's realistic for any bigger city to have them. Adding the opportunity to buy sex for role playing reasons is a plus in my book as well.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 17, 2017 22:49:36 GMT
I don't want brothels for nudity. I actually don't care about sex in games at all because I've never seen any that didn't make me laugh. The less you see the better in my book. Let's me imagine something good rather than having any sort of fantasy ruined by awkward puppets rubbing against each other in grotesque ways... and don't tell me the Ryder/Cora scene looks good because it does not. Still creepy AF with those facial animations. And Witcher 3 has the most cheesy 80s soft-core porn I've ever seen. I hope it was bad on purpose... Well, CDPR did hire porn actors and actresses to do the motion capture for those scenes. 17 hours worth.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2017 23:57:40 GMT
Ignoring your broad generalization of the pro brothel sentiment... I think it's pretty accurate, tbh. Reading back through the thread I see a lot of "I want to roleplay as promiscuous and/or a sex addict" and "removing prostitutes makes the game less adult/dark/realistic/whatever", but almost nobody is asking to have to deal with the potentially life-ruining consequences of sex addiction, or to face an actually adult, dark and realistic portrayal of sex workers and their lives. They don't want real men, women and children with bruises and missing teeth. They want vapid, titillating window dressing. They want a couple super models rehearsing lesbian sex in the background while Aidan Gillen monologues.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 18, 2017 0:24:48 GMT
The Brothel was an interesting part of DA2. In addition, that you can see, that the whiny Gamlen spend his coins in the Rose, you can see Orana there, if you just let her go... It's maybe just a nuance, but still, add to the mood. Very true. PessimisticPanda is right about there being a dark side to the sex industry, but that's definitely not all there is to it. I also live in a country with a widespread sec industry. It's not legal here, so it's even less regulated. Many "brothels" hide under the name of hair salons, massage parlors, or karaoke lounges. Paying for sex is an ingrained part of the culture for the local men here. The girls who work them are university students who want to get the newest iphone, not 40 year old desperate moms trying feed their families. I honestly don't see much different from DA2's depiction to tge real life ones. They did a pretty good job of showing that its not all roses, but it's certainly not all bleak oppression either.
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