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Post by Kappa Neko on Nov 30, 2017 18:16:22 GMT
It all comes down to MTX and the type of games that support it. Linear SP games or even open world SP games do not support that type of model. MP games do. That is all it comes down to. This. It doesn't matter how often people want to replay a game, how many hours they invest. You pay only once for it. EA wants us to keep paying for the same product. For AAA publishers/devs there is little incentive for going out of their way to provide hundreds of hours of (re)play value of a single player open world game. Other than pride in their work, of course. It's a HUGE financial risk to do so and hope it pays off like it did for CDPR. As for shoving MP games down everyone's throat. Let's not be ridiculous. Nobody is forced to play Destiny 2 and yet people were drooling all over themselves in anticipation. Gamers themselves are the problem when it comes to getting milked. They bitch about these poorly designed cookie cutter MP games and then they turn around and buy the next one and bitch again. It's almost comical. A totally abusive relationship of constant disappointment over a something that should have been obvious. I do believe that YES games have become more social and that people actually want to waste their time with competitive online gaming and open world collectibles. Companies do not dictate what people like. They respond to it and exploit it. But that's not the same thing as forcing everyone into their MP schemes. That's ridiculous. Gamers want more creative game designs but then don't actually buy these games. So many really well made story driven games do not sell well. Shiny AAA games is where the money is. Because people are easily swayed by stunning graphics. EA sucks but their games SELL because people BUY them. Doesn't matter how disappointed these games always are. People come back for more of them same. People are stupid. And companies exploit our weakness for the shiny.
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Post by goishen on Nov 30, 2017 19:08:00 GMT
Look, the way that I see it? Indie developers and single A developers (ya know, the ones who don't use any MTX whatsoever) are the only ones that I'll buy without careful consideration these days.
Larian Studios, Iceberg Interactive, TTG, Dontnod, Deep Silver, Spiders, etc.
Screw a whole bunch'a CoD, Hearthstone/Overwatch/HotS, EA bullshit. Fuck a bunch'a that noise.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 30, 2017 19:15:47 GMT
It all comes down to MTX and the type of games that support it. Linear SP games or even open world SP games do not support that type of model. MP games do. That is all it comes down to. This. It doesn't matter how often people want to replay a game, how many hours they invest. You pay only once for it. EA wants us to keep paying for the same product. For AAA publishers/devs there is little incentive for going out of their way to provide hundreds of hours of (re)play value of a single player open world game. Other than pride in their work, of course. It's a HUGE financial risk to do so and hope it pays off like it did for CDPR. It's no less of a risk to invest in a SP game that lasts maybe 10 hours but requires no less effort or money to make, yet provides way less replayability. From what I know it took around 40-45$ mil to develop MEA and it took anywhere from 25 to 50$ mil to develop Uncharted 4, nevermind that it took about as much time as large RPG to make it. It's true. As much as some developers and publishers want to milk trends and maximize profits, there would be no MP trend if there was no demand for it. It's not a one-sided thing. It's not just games, sadly. There were many acclaimed, well-liked movies that others had to beg audience to go to see and give money to, because they were failing in box office against crap like latest mediocre blockbuster or Sandler's 'comedies'.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 30, 2017 22:44:00 GMT
Look, the way that I see it? Indie developers and single A developers (ya know, the ones who don't use any MTX whatsoever) are the only ones that I'll buy without careful consideration these days. Larian Studios, Iceberg Interactive, TTG, Dontnod, Deep Silver, Spiders, etc. Screw a whole bunch'a CoD, Hearthstone/Overwatch/HotS, EA bullshit. Fuck a bunch'a that noise. Yet they would be the first ones to go if something catastrophic happens. Just like in 2007-2010 when we had a massive economic downturn, a lot of the "A" or "AA" studios crashed and burned. If that happens again, don't expect to see high production values from Larian or the like again (took them nearly a decade to get to that point, for example), or continue to see the mediocre quality of the products but on a smaller scale (Spiders comes to mind with Farey and Mars: War Logs)
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 1, 2017 3:27:03 GMT
Look, the way that I see it? Indie developers and single A developers (ya know, the ones who don't use any MTX whatsoever) are the only ones that I'll buy without careful consideration these days. Larian Studios, Iceberg Interactive, TTG, Dontnod, Deep Silver, Spiders, etc. Screw a whole bunch'a CoD, Hearthstone/Overwatch/HotS, EA bullshit. Fuck a bunch'a that noise. Yet they would be the first ones to go if something catastrophic happens. Just like in 2007-2010 when we had a massive economic downturn, a lot of the "A" or "AA" studios crashed and burned. If that happens again, don't expect to see high production values from Larian or the like again (took them nearly a decade to get to that point, for example), or continue to see the mediocre quality of the products but on a smaller scale (Spiders comes to mind with Farey and Mars: War Logs) The landscape has changed and many middlemen have been cut out. Digital publishing is more the norm now than back then. This is likely allowing smaller projects to launch like you can see from all the crap games en gros on Steam. The challenge is to bring a good game to attention.
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Post by goishen on Dec 1, 2017 3:52:47 GMT
Look, the way that I see it? Indie developers and single A developers (ya know, the ones who don't use any MTX whatsoever) are the only ones that I'll buy without careful consideration these days. Larian Studios, Iceberg Interactive, TTG, Dontnod, Deep Silver, Spiders, etc. Screw a whole bunch'a CoD, Hearthstone/Overwatch/HotS, EA bullshit. Fuck a bunch'a that noise. Yet they would be the first ones to go if something catastrophic happens. Just like in 2007-2010 when we had a massive economic downturn, a lot of the "A" or "AA" studios crashed and burned. If that happens again, don't expect to see high production values from Larian or the like again (took them nearly a decade to get to that point, for example), or continue to see the mediocre quality of the products but on a smaller scale (Spiders comes to mind with Farey and Mars: War Logs) And they're still around for....? What? Reasons?
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Post by majesticjazz on Dec 1, 2017 5:58:23 GMT
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 1, 2017 7:00:57 GMT
Yet they would be the first ones to go if something catastrophic happens. Just like in 2007-2010 when we had a massive economic downturn, a lot of the "A" or "AA" studios crashed and burned. If that happens again, don't expect to see high production values from Larian or the like again (took them nearly a decade to get to that point, for example), or continue to see the mediocre quality of the products but on a smaller scale (Spiders comes to mind with Farey and Mars: War Logs) And they're still around for....? What? Reasons? They survived in the end by being lucky. Their losses weren't big enough or they kept their budgets low enough to keep getting work. At least in the case of Larian and Spiders, DontNod is relatively new and Deep Silver struck it big with Techland and Dead Rising, but they are a publisher over a developer. For the most part they weathered the storm. But to name a few that are gone from that time period, for various reasons: We saw the closures of GRIN, Pseudo Interactive, Stormfront Studios, Factor 5, Brash, 3D Realms, and Flagship Studios. That is naming most of the independent ones too. A lot of AA-teams under publishers also got axed, including all those under Midway, LucasArts and THQ, a few EA studios, Deep Silver Vienna, Budcat and eventually Neversoft from Activision, and much more not even listed here. So yeah...a lot of dead studios there.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 1, 2017 11:44:37 GMT
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Post by goishen on Dec 1, 2017 12:53:24 GMT
Yah, I think that Flagship studios closed down due to other reasons, mainly Hellgate London and its bad reception. THQ wasn't an a single A or even a double A publisher. Remember SR3? Triple A game if I ever saw one. There's a reason I bought most of these games on whim, while drunk over holiday weekends. I bought it at a time when my standards were really really really low. Fuck, I even bought ME2 while drunk over Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday.
Either way, the point still stands. Either they're gonna figure it out and keep the lights on, or they're not. It's not my job as a gamer to worry about them. Agreed, maybe this creates a kind'a cowboy/wild west scenario for the developing business... But from my perspective, it's much better to have that than this kind'a garbage being tossed at us.
It's up to them to either form a union, quit the business, or decide to stick with a company that actually cares about them. It's not up to me, nor should it be. I'm getting really sick and tired of developers, publishers, and people like you telling me that it is up to me.
Look dude, if EA wants to make money in the gambling business? Fine. Go for it. I remember they used to put out casino simulators. Make them online, make them use real money, make them drain fucking bank accounts... In other words, make it rain dollah bills on EA.
Just keep them as far fucking away from me as possible.
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Post by PillarBiter on Dec 1, 2017 15:31:21 GMT
I LOVE IT! THEYRE DOING IT AGAIN!! THIS IS GOING TO BE HILARIOUS AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHHH....!!!
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 2, 2017 3:10:20 GMT
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 2, 2017 3:23:18 GMT
For me this is sort of... eh? Do people think that Disney didn't know about any of this? I'm fairly sure that they've had their hand on more than ensuring that Dice won't paint Darth Vader's armor pink, so the petition seems sort of... wasted energy.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 2, 2017 9:28:40 GMT
For me this is sort of... eh? Do people think that Disney didn't know about any of this? I'm fairly sure that they've had their hand on more than ensuring that Dice won't paint Darth Vader's armor pink, so the petition seems sort of... wasted energy. Absolutely, but if it happened it would send a powerful message to EA about the need to actually keep their consumers happy.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 2, 2017 10:48:18 GMT
Which I expect to have zero impact. The internet can generate 10x this number of dislikes for a popular song on youtube. If Disney determines that their profits or reputation are being impacted, that might force a change, but a 100k petition? Don't think so.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 2, 2017 11:32:58 GMT
Which I expect to have zero impact. The internet can generate 10x this number of dislikes for a popular song on youtube. If Disney determines that their profits or reputation are being impacted, that might force a change, but a 100k petition? Don't think so. Disney was already displeased with how EA handled BF2, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibilities that they decide EA isn’t the best partner for their biggest franchise. But probably nothing will happen, I agree.
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 2, 2017 12:56:33 GMT
Which I expect to have zero impact. The internet can generate 10x this number of dislikes for a popular song on youtube. If Disney determines that their profits or reputation are being impacted, that might force a change, but a 100k petition? Don't think so. Disney was already displeased with how EA handled BF2, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibilities that they decide EA isn’t the best partner for their biggest franchise. But probably nothing will happen, I agree. -(_ANTHEM_)-
Disney can be a slave driver when it suits them (know someone who worked for them). I'm unsurprised if both Disney and Lucas Films knew the extent of the aggressive loot box progression system designed to milk the SW addicts. Disney may even have a cut of the online revenue stream.
Be as it may, one thing Disney will protect and that is its reputation as a children's brand. Anyone soiling that brand will get the hammer.
Best way to attack EA is through Disney, via main media "news". If the petition can interest these main news players (MSNBC, CBC, CNN, Fox), Disney will have no choice but to react. 🌸
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 2, 2017 13:11:50 GMT
Which I expect to have zero impact. The internet can generate 10x this number of dislikes for a popular song on youtube. If Disney determines that their profits or reputation are being impacted, that might force a change, but a 100k petition? Don't think so. Disney was already displeased with how EA handled BF2, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibilities that they decide EA isn’t the best partner for their biggest franchise. But probably nothing will happen, I agree. While that might be true, money counts more then anything with companies that size for they all have to appease shareholders. If EA can make a good Star Wars game before the end of the contract with minimal outrage on the internet Battlefront 2 will be forgotten. The other thing is I don't see many publishers or developers having the capital to make a game to the standards I think players on average will expect anymore from a Star Wars game. Right now Disney I think has bigger issues to worry about then EA as well, the Gazillion partnership ending seems to be due to reports of sexual misconduct which I think Disney is going to worry more about then microtransactions if they don't actively kill all ties.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 2, 2017 13:25:54 GMT
Disney was already displeased with how EA handled BF2, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibilities that they decide EA isn’t the best partner for their biggest franchise. But probably nothing will happen, I agree. -(_ANTHEM_)-
Disney can be a slave driver when it suits them (know someone who worked for them). I'm unsurprised if both Disney and Lucas Films knew the extent of the aggressive loot box progression system designed to milk the SW addicts. Disney may even have a cut of the online revenue stream.
Be as it may, one thing Disney will protect and that is its reputation as a children's brand. Anyone soiling that brand will get the hammer.
Best way to attack EA is through Disney, via main media "news". If the petition can interest these main news players (MSNBC, CBC, CNN, Fox), Disney will have no choice but to react. 🌸
The recent rulings though counter that perception Disney holds dear, they are no longer operating casinos, at least in belgium and the uk. So things may be copacetic.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 2, 2017 19:51:45 GMT
Some food for thought in regards to just how addictive these MT are: This is nothing new and why the sudden outrage from lawmakers leaves me wondering for there was an eight year old that spent $6,000 on the Jurassic Park app and over $2,200 in one hour in 2015.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 2, 2017 20:39:22 GMT
This is nothing new and why the sudden outrage from lawmakers leaves me wondering for there was an eight year old that spent $6,000 on the Jurassic Park app and over $2,200 in one hour in 2015. Because it's good for outrage. There will always be people like this - and while I'm not really OK with companies (be it gaming or not) employing some insidious techniques to make people spend more, especially those who are easier to push into addiction... the data from gaming industry doesn't seem to support the myth that games with mtx rely on whales. Rather, they rely on heavy payers (those who spend more than 100$ a year) and moderate payers (1-99$ a year) to keep things afloat, while whales (over 1000$) ain't a segment that is growing or relied on that much. There's a whole post by askagamedev, together with appropriate video from video market research group that's looked into these things.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 2, 2017 20:44:24 GMT
New or not, at least there's more awareness now. New? Oh no, it's certainly not new. It's also definitely not a thing that began in games, considering Gearge Lucas's genius idea to gain control over Star Wars licensing and merch and made insane money out of it. The mechanism is, sadly, similar. Give people stuff and they will buy - some more than others.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 3, 2017 15:56:15 GMT
New? Oh no, it's certainly not new. It's also definitely not a thing that began in games, considering Gearge Lucas's genius idea to gain control over Star Wars licensing and merch and made insane money out of it. The mechanism is, sadly, similar. Give people stuff and they will buy - some more than others. How did Lucas "gain control" when SW was his to begin with? He retained licensing and merchandising rights for himself, which let him build his empire based on Star Wars merch. It's not a secret. (Also - the product like a movie practically never belongs to the director, unless he/she financed, wrote and basically done all the work on it himself/herself. Kinda like with games. We're talking about something that took entire team, collaborative effort and various sources of money to create, and the bulk of rights usually belong companies under which the movie was created. In Lucas's case, he supposedly agreed to smaller salary for first SW movie in order to retain copyrights to the franchise, which is what made him a billionaire, thanks to all the toys sold). Also, from the linked article: "As an attempt to curb demand, for the 1977 holiday season Kenner famously sold an empty box called the “Early Bird Certificate Page.” The box had no toys in it, just a few stickers and stuff along with a certificate kids could fill out and send in to be among the first to get Star Wars toys when they were released. It was a huge success. (Seen below in a repackage version from 2005.)"Lol, the first season pass. None of those ideas are new. None. I don't think anybody was arguing that? The issue is not wanting to make money, but how money is being made and I don't see disagreement in here.
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August 2016
sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 3, 2017 17:03:46 GMT
Snip
There is nothing wrong with a company / individual wanting to make money,
Snip -(_ANTHEM_)-
Except from a moral/lawful point of view, imo.
EA. with BF2, has highlighted that core game design was changed for the worst, when in-game purchases are made available. Execs at public traded companies will, in fact, attempt to grow investor value. Gaming is like the Old West.... no rules or enforcement by lawful authorities. Therefore, EA has pushed the envelope by sacrificing "honest" gameplay for profits... until the consumers respond in a way that hurt profits.
Many game publishers have succumbed to the addiction of easy money via MTs. They will not give them up willingly and it is the reason most games, nowadays, are MP heavy while SP is slowly withering on the vine... at least for AAA titles.
Still, this public debacle has forced some major players to scale back (very grudgingly ) their aggressive MTs behaviour... for the time being.
Looking back, perhaps Bio + EA + other EA studios moving over to REDDIT was a serious bad move. It gave the consumers (players) some critical mass that made them an effective voice against corp. giants.
🌸
EDIT: Star Citizen is now offering a plot of land in the game for $120.00. If this is not ridiculous, I don't know what is.
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