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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 14:27:40 GMT
without the EA buyout, it's very likely the company wouldn't exist. People forget that BioWare and Pandemic were in financial trouble, which is why they partnered up to begin with. And STILL Bioware is not immune to closure the same way Maxis, Pandemic, Visceral and other studios are. Bioware may be alive today, but EA has a tight grip on the creative direction of their games, a grip that Bioware never had when they were an independent studio. Exhibit A: If it were up to Bioware, MEA probably would have had a fall 2017 release date. However because EA has their hand in the cookie jar, that didnt happen and we all know how the rest of the story goes. MEA was rushed.....by EA. DA2 was rushed....by EA. The thing is Jade Empire at least to my circle of friends was just as rushed if not more then the games you mention. It felt like there were two different games joined together for one half was a vast experience where you could explore and interact with other people and objects. The second half was basically a boring corridor that was just there to continue the plot for an ending. That is purely on BioWare, pretty sure if I could remember BioWare's game prior to that there could be cases made to indicate those games were rushed in some regard. No studio is immune to closing regardless how you operate in the industry if you are owned by a publisher or independent. At least if you are at EA it seems the majority of people have been moved to other projects for we haven't seen many articles talking about how EA screwed a lot of people over by firing them, like when the industry fired everyone working on a game when it went gold in the past. Exhibit A: Needs evidence. I can just as easily guess that BioWare might have even released the game earlier if they didn't have a major publisher behind them footing the bills for they could have run out of money and just released the project and never patched it at all and Activision has released games unfinished as well so it isn't just like you can hope for another publisher to prevent the game from being released early.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 14:33:24 GMT
Thank you! Someone remembered their past for a moment. Although one adjustment to that timeline, The first Mass Effect was released while they were under Elevation Partners. The release of the game was a major financial drain despite being a success...EA buying the Corp gave them two things: money to finish Dragon Age, and Money to start Mass Effect 2. So without the EA buyout, it's very likely the company wouldn't exist. People forget that BioWare and Pandemic were in financial trouble, which is why they partnered up to begin with. A small error there. Mass Effect was funded and published by Microsoft, not Elevation Partners, and EA bought the rights back in 2008. Also, until BioWare games start to be financial flops (even MEA generated a profit going by EA financial reports), EA isn't going to close them down. EA didn't close down Visceral just because of them not being able to make a game in 5 years, they closed them down because in the last ~10 years their only profitable games were Battlefield games. I guess it is my mentality when looking at Visceral and BioWare Montreal, but aside from closing the buildings where they didn't have games in active development what did they really do? Yes they retired the studio name, but what else happened? For I don't hear of massive layoffs when they closed the studios.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 6, 2017 14:59:32 GMT
I guess it is my mentality when looking at Visceral and BioWare Montreal, but aside from closing the buildings where they didn't have games in active development what did they really do? Yes they retired the studio name, but what else happened? For I don't hear of massive layoffs when they closed the studios. BioWare Montréal wasn't closed down. It was merged with Motive Studio and going by how both studios were in the same office space in Montréal already, all that really happened is that they removed the BioWare tags around the office and re-assigned people to Motive Studio projects. So no mass layoff happened. And going by other local news, the whole thing might not have anything to do with Mass Effect Andromeda. EA promised the provincial government to create 500 jobs in the province over the next 10 years in exchange of tax credits ($500m investment). Their might have been some legal stuff/loophole involved with that which lead to BioWare Montréal being turned into Motive Studio.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Nov 6, 2017 15:16:33 GMT
In short absolutely rushed. An unfinished game is an unfinished game regardless of the time put into it.
What's frustrating about it is 5 years is more time than most other developers get and they still didn't make use of it, furthermore they even got the blessing from EA to delay the game, something other groups under EA would love. I still refuse to see EA as the problem here too. They treat Bioware probably with the most respect compared to their other studios, that's including DiCE who is their money maker in the fps genre and heading a trend of going old school with them. DiCE doesn't get delays, and they rarely get extra years to work on their games. Here's a comparison I'd like to make on Andromeda and battlefield 4:
•both launched with a shitty reception •both were bug heavy games •both also underwent the work to patch up as much as possible
The one difference is battlefield 4 got the chance to continue on once fixed and Andromeda didn't. so why is that? Well for 1 the fps market is much much bigger than anything Bioware has ever been apart of so there's more of a chance to win a good portion of that playerbase back. I've said it various times, as great as Bioware can be, they're a niche group making games that fit a small market. So get a bad reception in that small market and it's arguably better to cut ties and take the loss rather than putting more resources into it and potentially lose even more. That's my own speculation on Andromeda not doing post launch content. It wouldn't be an issue if DLC/expansions weren't so common, I can't even think of a recent game (especially in the AAA level) that hasn't got DLC, furthermore there has been other struggling games that still put out expansions.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 15:29:32 GMT
In short absolutely rushed. An unfinished game is an unfinished game regardless of the time put into it. What's frustrating about it is 5 years is more time than most other developers get and they still didn't make use of it, furthermore they even got the blessing from EA to delay the game, something other groups under EA would love. I still refuse to see EA as the problem here too. They treat Bioware probably with the most respect compared to their other studios, that's including DiCE who is their money maker in the fps genre and heading a trend of going old school with them. DiCE doesn't get delays, and they rarely get extra years to work on their games. Here's a comparison I'd like to make on Andromeda and battlefield 4: •both launched with a shitty reception •both were bug heavy games •both also underwent the work to patch up as much as possible The one difference is battlefield 4 got the chance to continue on once fixed and Andromeda didn't. so why is that? Well for 1 the fps market is much much bigger than anything Bioware has ever been apart of so there's more of a chance to win a good portion of that playerbase back. I've said it various times, as great as Bioware can be, they're a niche group making games that fit a small market. So get a bad reception in that small market and it's arguably better to cut ties and take the loss rather than putting more resources into it and potentially lose even more. That's my own speculation on Andromeda not doing post launch content. It wouldn't be an issue if DLC/expansions weren't so common, I can't even think of a recent game (especially in the AAA level) that hasn't got DLC, furthermore there has been other struggling games that still put out expansions. Now there might be an exception, but from the games I follow any of the big budget AAA games that might have been disappointing in sales like Andromeda and had additional content after release is because they had Season Passes attached to the game and that is all those studios did for those games which then becomes a contract to give players those additional content since it was already paid for.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 6, 2017 16:00:51 GMT
In short absolutely rushed. An unfinished game is an unfinished game regardless of the time put into it. Is "rushed" actually the right word for this concept? I suppose it could be, but then we need a different word or phrase to describe situations where sufficient time and/or resources weren't ever assigned to the project.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 6, 2017 16:17:08 GMT
They essentially made a pact with the Devil. Now look at them.... *shrugs* I'll take this version of Bio over dead Bio, anytime. If they're nothing more than an EA logo, is there a difference?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 6, 2017 16:21:35 GMT
I think Anthem is the "last line of defense" for Bioware. If Anthem fails, I am not sure if they recover. Given that EA wants a push for more MP content in all their games and given all the time, money, resources that goes into Anthem.....if it ends up being a dud, we could see Bioware share the same fate as all the other studios that were dissolved under EA. Can't see Anthem failing though, from everything we've seen it looks like it'll be a pretty decent (multiplayer) third person shooter ... with quests and stuff. If you like that kind of game it'll probably entertain you. It's likely to do pretty well, it just won't be a game for me yeah I think it'll make for an excellent MMO style game but personally I don't do MMO's so won't be looking at it personally. I'm more interested in DA4.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Nov 6, 2017 16:25:21 GMT
"Pact with the devil.." Holy crap, such drama queens. They partnered with Pandemic that was invested in by a private equity fund that EA bought out in 2007, two years after it was formed. Ten years, folks, they've been EA's property with them producing some of the best games on the market. www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m/1100-6180818/Pact with the devil...hilarious Yeah, but.... That's not how it happened. The CEO of the holding company sold to EA... It was a classic end-run. Your overconfidence is pretty hilarious.
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Post by samhain444 on Nov 6, 2017 16:27:52 GMT
"Pact with the devil.." Holy crap, such drama queens. They partnered with Pandemic that was invested in by a private equity fund that EA bought out in 2007, two years after it was formed. Ten years, folks, they've been EA's property with them producing some of the best games on the market. www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m/1100-6180818/Pact with the devil...hilarious Yeah, but.... That's not how it happened. The CEO of the holding company sold to EA... It was a classic end-run. Your overconfidence is pretty hilarious. oh...kay
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 6, 2017 17:24:41 GMT
*shrugs* I'll take this version of Bio over dead Bio, anytime. If they're nothing more than an EA logo, is there a difference? No, but I don't think your hypothetical is true.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 6, 2017 17:26:11 GMT
"Pact with the devil.." Holy crap, such drama queens. They partnered with Pandemic that was invested in by a private equity fund that EA bought out in 2007, two years after it was formed. Ten years, folks, they've been EA's property with them producing some of the best games on the market. www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-buying-bioware-pandemic-for-860m/1100-6180818/Pact with the devil...hilarious Yeah, but.... That's not how it happened. The CEO of the holding company sold to EA... It was a classic end-run. Your overconfidence is pretty hilarious. What's the difference between being owned by one of those and being owned by the other?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Nov 6, 2017 17:46:50 GMT
Yeah, but.... That's not how it happened. The CEO of the holding company sold to EA... It was a classic end-run. Your overconfidence is pretty hilarious. What's the difference between being owned by one of those and being owned by the other? Because the holding company was ostensibly created to avoid precisely this situation.
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Post by cypherj on Nov 6, 2017 18:01:30 GMT
It wasn't rushed. They had five years to make the game, they just wasted a lot of that time.
It's like you not being able to decide what to write your school paper on, and then when you finally decide, the paper is due the next day.
People keep trying to blame EA for the debacle that was the production of this game, but management at Bioware is to blame for taking so long to decide on a direction for the game. EA even pushed the release back once, but eventually you just have to put it out from a cost standpoint. They probably paid for marketing and other things in advance of the release date, and they would have had to keep paying developers if they moved the release out again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 18:57:21 GMT
BioWare Montreal had ~5 years to make ME:A and squandered 3 or so of those years chasing pipe dream ideas that took roads to nowhere fast. (No Man's Sky procedurally generated worlds are such a bad idea in a story driven game, imo.) They then had approximately 2 years to make Andromeda and do to conflicts between the studio, management, and BW proper, ME:A development was fractured at best. EA gave BW a break and pushed back the release date, but it wasn't enough to prevent the atrocious state that the game launched in. As much as I loved ME:A, BW Montreal screwed the pooch and is now another studio out in EA's backyard graveyard, and some, including me, would say rightfully so. It's a sad, but true tale of ambition creep leading to a lack of productivity.
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Post by abaris on Nov 6, 2017 19:59:34 GMT
Exhibit A: Needs evidence. I can just as easily guess that BioWare might have even released the game earlier if they didn't have a major publisher behind them footing the bills for they could have run out of money and just released the project and never patched it at all and Activision has released games unfinished as well so it isn't just like you can hope for another publisher to prevent the game from being released early. That's all in the what if category. They may have never produced it at all, given it a different direction, released it sooner or later, handled it in Edmonton rather than Montreal. Montreal may not have existed at all, if they were still independent. Fact is, Bioware is a division of EA. A lot of people making up the old company have already left and Bioware is mainly a label to be slapped over whatever EA decides to carry that label.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 6, 2017 20:24:49 GMT
Exhibit A: Needs evidence. I can just as easily guess that BioWare might have even released the game earlier if they didn't have a major publisher behind them footing the bills for they could have run out of money and just released the project and never patched it at all and Activision has released games unfinished as well so it isn't just like you can hope for another publisher to prevent the game from being released early. That's all in the what if category. They may have never produced it at all, given it a different direction, released it sooner or later, handled it in Edmonton rather than Montreal. Montreal may not have existed at all, if they were still independent. Fact is, Bioware is a division of EA. A lot of people making up the old company have already left and Bioware is mainly a label to be slapped over whatever EA decides to carry that label. Then why do people keep expecting BioWare to act like old BioWare? If BioWare is just a label then people need to stop expecting things to go back the way they were since there are new people there.
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Post by darkway1 on Nov 6, 2017 20:49:21 GMT
I don't think Andromeda was rushed......it's just an example of inept management and poor process.
The whole point of pre-production is to create a blue print.....story,characters,game-play mechanics,tech issue's etc should all be finished and finalized at the end of this process.
The next stage is production,which is the process of creating exactly what's on the blueprint (created during pre-production).The purpose of management during this phase is to keep everyone focused and on-track with the development of what's on the blue print.
If Andromeda did not have a solid pre-production foundation,then the game should never have gone into development........so my own conclusion is simple,only management had the power to make the call to skip key aspects of pre-production and green light Andromeda's aimless development.
The sad reality is that a fantastic franchise like Mass Effect was put in the hands of people who genuinely didn't know what the hell they were doing and the process that would have highlighted the FACT was ignored.......it's pretty disgraceful and explains why so many people left Bioware during Andromeda's development,as they all knew that Andromeda was destined to fail.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 7, 2017 1:22:56 GMT
What's the difference between being owned by one of those and being owned by the other? Because the holding company was ostensibly created to avoid precisely this situation. Apparently Elevation Partners never got that memo.
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Post by Sifr on Nov 7, 2017 2:45:53 GMT
I think the issue is that they rushed ahead the game development without having an actual story for what the game was supposed to be. That's why Andromeda's narrative feels occasionally like it's still only at the bullet-point stage and some ideas are not fully realised or properly executed.
For example, the Hyperion heads to the Nexus because it was damaged by the Scourge and leaking power. Only for us to then learn that the Nexus also has power issues (they can barely keep the lights on). But this dire circumstance immediately gets dropped, as the characters hook the Hyperion's reactor into the Nexus and voila, now everything works? They resolved something that should have been a main plot point (Ryder needs to scout for salvage/tech to help fix our power issues) in the first two hours of the game and off-screen!
Also we could have had the ending of the game and final showdown with the Archon on the Remnant city. They could have saved the reveal that the City wasn't Meridian and left Ryder's quest to find it for a future game. That plot hook alone could fill a sequel and see Ryder exploring parts of the cluster where the Scourge is so dense and dangerous that even the Kett avoid it.
Ending the first game with a technologically advanced Dyson Shell that renders most of our survival problems completely meaningless? Imagine how we'd have felt if Shepard had just found the Crucible laying around and used it to wipe out the Reapers in ME1?
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 7, 2017 3:00:26 GMT
Exhibit A: Needs evidence. I can just as easily guess that BioWare might have even released the game earlier if they didn't have a major publisher behind them footing the bills for they could have run out of money and just released the project and never patched it at all and Activision has released games unfinished as well so it isn't just like you can hope for another publisher to prevent the game from being released early. A Bioware dev said it themselves that they will release MEA when its ready and that we would have to take it from their dead hands before it is released before they are ready or something to that nature. Besides, EA, the publisher decides when a game releases, not Bioware. EA would say, "We need this game out by [insert month/quarter/year]" and Bioware would have to scramble to make it happen.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 7, 2017 3:41:00 GMT
That's all in the what if category. They may have never produced it at all, given it a different direction, released it sooner or later, handled it in Edmonton rather than Montreal. Montreal may not have existed at all, if they were still independent. Fact is, Bioware is a division of EA. A lot of people making up the old company have already left and Bioware is mainly a label to be slapped over whatever EA decides to carry that label. Then why do people keep expecting BioWare to act like old BioWare? If BioWare is just a label then people need to stop expecting things to go back the way they were since there are new people there. It depends on what "acting like old Bioware" means. Going to an action game, ruining a game with forced MP, and lots of DLC are Bio traditions too.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 7, 2017 3:43:35 GMT
Exhibit A: Needs evidence. I can just as easily guess that BioWare might have even released the game earlier if they didn't have a major publisher behind them footing the bills for they could have run out of money and just released the project and never patched it at all and Activision has released games unfinished as well so it isn't just like you can hope for another publisher to prevent the game from being released early. A Bioware dev said it themselves that they will release MEA when its ready and that we would have to take it from their dead hands before it is released before they are ready or something to that nature. Besides, EA, the publisher decides when a game releases, not Bioware. EA would say, "We need this game out by [insert month/quarter/year]" and Bioware would have to scramble to make it happen. Pretty much, yeah. Bio had until the end of the EA fiscal year to release. Anyone who said they could get an extension past that was either lying to us or to himself OTOH, it's not like a fantasy independent Bio would have had less concern with financial stuff.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Nov 7, 2017 22:07:04 GMT
The current Andromeda was rushed, but 3.5 years were wasted on a NMS kind of game so Bioware dug themselves into a hole, which they had no choice but to rush the game.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by goishen on Nov 11, 2017 13:14:07 GMT
The current Andromeda was rushed, but 3.5 years were wasted on a NMS kind of game so Bioware dug themselves into a hole, which they had no choice but to rush the game. As much as I hate to admit it, BioWare has no one to blame but themselves. I remember that investor call about two-three months before they released saying that it would be okay if Andromeda released later in the year. BioWare said nope.
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