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Post by Moonae on Apr 28, 2018 10:06:07 GMT
I understand why it seemed suspicious. I thought so too. She clearly got the hint about Space and changed her vote after it, but then said she didn't see the second hint. And the hint about Space was the second one.
Like I said, it's possible she thought that was the first. But at the time I thought it was obvious that wasn't the case since I had questioned Reed and he clearly said there had been an earlier one. Other people joined in, mentioning comments Reed had made as possible hints, so when people said they didn't get the hint I thought it was because they were focusing on finding the first one and so missed Space.
Which is why I got suspicous of Dragon clearly understanding about Space but at the same time seemingly not realizing there was another hint at all. Rereading it I see she didn't take part in that discussion which could be an explanaition for why she didn't know. But she still should have read it, right?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 10:37:08 GMT
Thanks for your post, Gervaise. That helped a lot. I'd like to reserve my option to change again, but I won't yet. I was hoping to see what Romice would say. She's traveling now though?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2018 10:45:13 GMT
Dragon never denied there was at least one hint made by Reed, which is why she changed her vote. All she said was she hadn't realised there was a second even stronger hint at the role. This is because of the misunderstanding about the first hint actually being a hint, so initially Dragon thought there must be another hint even stronger than the one she had seen. Reed seemed to realise this as he continued to focus on explaining the party hint, which many people didn't get.
The whole case that rests against the role currently occupied Catilina is not whether or not Dragon got the hint, which she clearly did (or why change her vote), but why she didn't use her ability the following night, which she also explains. So essentially if you were in the same position, would that seem reasonable?
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Post by fylimar on Apr 28, 2018 11:00:48 GMT
I understand why it seemed suspicious. I thought so too. She clearly got the hint about Space and changed her vote after it, but then said she didn't see the second hint. And the hint about Space was the second one. Like I said, it's possible she thought that was the first. But at the time I thought it was obvious that wasn't the case since I had questioned Reed and he clearly said there had been an earlier one. Other people joined in, mentioning comments Reed had made as possible hints, so when people said they didn't get the hint I thought it was because they were focusing on finding the first one and so missed Space. Which is why I got suspicous of Dragon clearly understanding about Space but at the same time seemingly not realizing there was another hint at all. Rereading it I see she didn't take part in that discussion which could be an explanaition for why she didn't know. But she still should have read it, right? I didn't get the comment about space too until much later, therefore I don't hold it against her
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Post by fylimar on Apr 28, 2018 11:02:43 GMT
Dragon never denied there was at least one hint made by Reed, which is why she changed her vote. All she said was she hadn't realised there was a second even stronger hint at the role. This is because of the misunderstanding about the first hint actually being a hint, so initially Dragon thought there must be another hint even stronger than the one she had seen. Reed seemed to realise this as he continued to focus on explaining the party hint, which many people didn't get. The whole case that rests against the role currently occupied Catilina is not whether or not Dragon got the hint, which she clearly did (or why change her vote), but why she didn't use her ability the following night, which she also explains. So essentially if you were in the same position, would that seem reasonable? To me, it sounds reasonable enough
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 11:21:05 GMT
Dragon never denied there was at least one hint made by Reed, which is why she changed her vote. All she said was she hadn't realised there was a second even stronger hint at the role. This is because of the misunderstanding about the first hint actually being a hint, so initially Dragon thought there must be another hint even stronger than the one she had seen. Reed seemed to realise this as he continued to focus on explaining the party hint, which many people didn't get. The whole case that rests against the role currently occupied Catilina is not whether or not Dragon got the hint, which she clearly did (or why change her vote), but why she didn't use her ability the following night, which she also explains. So essentially if you were in the same position, would that seem reasonable? I agree I don't find Dragon particularly suspicious based on this, and agree blaming Cati for Dragon's mistake is also very unfair. I regret switching now, but I do have one change left.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 11:43:05 GMT
We are so focused on Adonniel and Catitartare that we forget there were others who didn't get all clues. What of them?
A spy has two choices here. Play innocent and say they didn't see the hints, or notice the hints, but claim their role could not help Reed. Both strategies may well have been used.
I think it's safe to say Adonniel and Cati are not both spies. One of them could be or neither. Aside from these two, the suspects as far as I can see are Fylmar, Pela and Romice.
I'm not getting spy vibes from any of them currently, so I'm at a loss as to who else to accuse.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2018 12:01:01 GMT
So. It was a big misunderstanding. Gervaise presented the situation well. So: your choice. If you don't trust me, you will kick a hero, because of Dragon's behaviour was inconsistent, but this was only the beginning of the game, she didn't know anything yet. If she (we) would be a spy, she would rather keep silent and wait (at least this is what I would do), in this early phase.
So, vote wisely: I'm a hero.
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Post by Moonae on Apr 28, 2018 12:42:56 GMT
I understand why it seemed suspicious. I thought so too. She clearly got the hint about Space and changed her vote after it, but then said she didn't see the second hint. And the hint about Space was the second one. Like I said, it's possible she thought that was the first. But at the time I thought it was obvious that wasn't the case since I had questioned Reed and he clearly said there had been an earlier one. Other people joined in, mentioning comments Reed had made as possible hints, so when people said they didn't get the hint I thought it was because they were focusing on finding the first one and so missed Space. Which is why I got suspicous of Dragon clearly understanding about Space but at the same time seemingly not realizing there was another hint at all. Rereading it I see she didn't take part in that discussion which could be an explanaition for why she didn't know. But she still should have read it, right? I didn't get the comment about space too until much later, therefore I don't hold it against her She got the hint about Space, though. That's why I got confused when she said she thought there was only one hint. Everyone else seemed so focused on the first hint that, even if you didn't get the actual hint yourself, I'm not sure how you could miss that it existed. So Dragon getting the hint about Space but also thinking that it was the only one seemed off to me. Still, thinking about it with more information, it seems like a weird strategy for a spy and more like a genuine reaction/missunderstanding. Doesn't mean Cati is not a spy, just puts him on the same level as most others. Maybe slightly above still .
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 12:54:10 GMT
I didn't understand the party hint either, to be honest, although I recognized it as a hint. In retrospect it makes sense as Liara
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 13:09:00 GMT
You guys don't need to go for camp adonniel or camp Cati.
There are also romice, feli and pela.
For some reason not seeing Cati's evilness is being interpreted as me being evil. There are certain things related to intuition as well. Some people may see something Dragon said as suspicious and another person will read the same line and not see it. That doesn't make the person who does see it evil.
It's a bad situation that we are discussing actions of a missing person, but frankly, I feel I got the short end of the stick here since there is a GM involuntarily but representing another player even if I understand why and of course Gerva did an excellent job of trying to be objective and diplomatic in this case and being really good at outlining the situation in general.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 28, 2018 13:23:34 GMT
You guys don't need to go for camp adonniel or camp Cati. There are also romice, feli and pela. For some reason not seeing Cati's evilness is being interpreted as me being evil. There are certain things related to intuition as well. Some people may see something Dragon said as suspicious and another person will read the same line and not see it. That doesn't make the person who does see it evil. It's a bad situation that we are discussing actions of a missing person, but frankly, I feel I got the short end of the stick here since there is a GM involuntarily but defending another player even if I understand why. I appreciate everyone trying to be objective in this situation, but I feel the game is not tipped fairly at this point. As Space Cowboy said, we aren't spy both. Of course, this not means we aren't hero both. You're right, nothing justified the two camp. I know, I'm not a spy, but perhaps, we're both heroes. Perhaps.
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Post by fylimar on Apr 28, 2018 14:16:21 GMT
You guys don't need to go for camp adonniel or camp Cati. There are also romice, feli and pela. For some reason not seeing Cati's evilness is being interpreted as me being evil. There are certain things related to intuition as well. Some people may see something Dragon said as suspicious and another person will read the same line and not see it. That doesn't make the person who does see it evil. It's a bad situation that we are discussing actions of a missing person, but frankly, I feel I got the short end of the stick here since there is a GM involuntarily but representing another player even if I understand why and of course Gerva did an excellent job of trying to be objective and diplomatic in this case and being really good at outlining the situation in general. I get what you mean. My reasoning was just, that I made the same mistake as dragon and therefore I don't get, why she is suspicious, since no one accused me. For me it does look a bit like two spies trying to make an innocent enough mistake into something suspicious, I did that too and we together did that too when we were spies. Of course, I might be wrong, and the real spies are laughing hard at the moment, but I have to start somewhere. If you are, who you claim to be, you have nothing to worry, on the contrary, I'm probably toast, and I don't know, but I think, it will be revealed, if you are a hero or not. And I'm prepared to take the blow, it's kind of my thing anyway
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2018 15:00:38 GMT
Voting update:
Catilina 3 Adonniel 2
Still to vote:
Moonae Romice
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Moonae
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Moonae on Apr 28, 2018 16:09:57 GMT
Well, fylimar, you didn't make the same mistake. That's the point. It's what made Dragon stand out from the others who didn't get the hint (you and romice I believe?) or adonniel who didn't say either way.
Honestly the main thing that has me hesitating is gervaise's behaviour but I'm just gonna vote for Cati cause at least then I'll know and can move on.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Apr 28, 2018 17:29:02 GMT
I didn't understand the party hint either, to be honest, although I recognized it as a hint. In retrospect it makes sense as Liara To try to further clarify, I was trying to play off what I thought was Dragon's hint at her role (possibly being Javik what with being tons of fun at parties) and not give away my role to the spies because, as noticed, what happened when I gave a better hint at Liara? Insta-dead.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2018 17:50:23 GMT
Okay good people, I have an announcement to make. Adonniel has quit the game for various reasons. I have asked Reed if he would like to take over her role so this game can finish. Just so you are all aware, there is no chance of Liara being resurrected. Since it is pretty clear who Liara investigated the first night, I don't think this gives Reed an undue advantage in knowing what the result of that investigation was.
If you would rather I just ended the game now, then please say so either here or via personal PM if you prefer. Thank you.
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Post by pelassarias on Apr 28, 2018 18:23:05 GMT
I don't understand why players are just leaving this game instead talking things out. The whole reason we're even in this dilemma where things are unfair no matter how the players vote is because a player has left without discussing things even further. Now another has quit, which is even more unfortunate. I say we continue this game but if another has decided to leave this game later on, then I think it would be best if we just start afresh with another game. As for gervaise's posts about dragon's posts, I have to say I wish this would have been clarified earlier. I'm still a little confused about this whole situation however, so I'll need to think about this some more before I possibly switch my vote.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 18:23:39 GMT
I didn't understand the party hint either, to be honest, although I recognized it as a hint. In retrospect it makes sense as Liara To try to further clarify, I was trying to play off what I thought was Dragon's hint at her role (possibly being Javik what with being tons of fun at parties) and not give away my role to the spies because, as noticed, what happened when I gave a better hint at Liara? Insta-dead. I know, when you had to give the other clue I cringed for you, despite being exonerated. I'd rather give no hints rather than give something away. If people choose to vote for me, so be it. but thats me. I guess if you were being eliminated you had little choice though, and little to lose.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 18:24:36 GMT
I don't understand why players are just leaving this game instead talking things out. The whole reason we're even in this dilemma where things are unfair no matter how the players vote is because a player has left without discussing things even further. Now another has quit, which is even more unfortunate. I say we continue this game but if another has decided to leave this game later on, then I think it would be best if we just start afresh with another game. As for gervaise's posts about dragon's posts, I have to say I wish this would have been clarified earlier. I'm still a little confused about this whole situation however, so I'll need to think this some more before I possibly switch my vote. I hope no one else will have a reason to leave.
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Post by pelassarias on Apr 28, 2018 19:06:00 GMT
Alright, before I make my decision on whether or I'll change my vote, there are still some things I need clarified: To my mind what Dragon had been saying is the she didn't realise there were 2 clues to Reed's identity. It wasn't the 2nd (obvious) clue she didn't get, she thought that was the 1st clue. However, on re-reading the posts she realised there had been another earlier lue. Several other people were also unaware that was a clue. Dragon also pointed out why Javik would not necessarily want to use their ability so early in the game. Anyone who has played the game previously would be aware of these drawbacks. It is not just the double elimination the following night but the fact that no one can use their abilities that night including Liara. So Javik is more likely to wait and give other defensive roles (if present) the opportunity to defend Liara. That said, we did have an instance when a person pretending to be Javik (because spies did not then have actual roles) used this as an excuse for why they did not act. What Dragon also pointed out was that since other defensive roles had not been used, or were not successful, then Javik would potentially be the last defensive role left and did people really want to risk eliminating him? Okay, so you're saying that she thought the second hint was the first hint and that she did not get the first hint until later on, if I'm understanding correctly. The thing is that before reed made the second hint, I pointed out that I didn't understand reed's first hint, the "I don't go to parties" line. And I know dragon was aware of this post since she liked it. So I'm still confused here. I got dragon's hint, but I'm not really getting reed's possible hint. If it's the "I don't go to parties" line then I'm even more confused for spoilery reasons I'll explain below. (Here's hoping the spoiler button works. If it doesn't, then don't read past this point if you haven't played the third game) This is the post I'm referring to, for reference. Also keep in mind that reed replied to this post, pretty much confirming that this was a hint. ETA: Also I'm aware that you want us to consider whether or not it's suspicious that Javik did not use their ability. But given that fact the I'm still pretty confused about this situation, and other players might be too, I still think it would be beneficial if this would be cleared up regardless.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Apr 28, 2018 19:45:54 GMT
To try to further clarify, I was trying to play off what I thought was Dragon's hint at her role (possibly being Javik what with being tons of fun at parties) and not give away my role to the spies because, as noticed, what happened when I gave a better hint at Liara? Insta-dead. I know, when you had to give the other clue I cringed for you, despite being exonerated. I'd rather give no hints rather than give something away. If people choose to vote for me, so be it. but thats me. I guess if you were being eliminated you had little choice though, and little to lose. Well, I assumed that I should try to stay alive as Liara for the heroes. I'm still new-ish to this ya know. This is why I like being a spy lmaoooo
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 28, 2018 20:18:15 GMT
Okay, for further clarification, I suggest returning to page 109, where Dragon specifically answered some of the case against her, particularly the points made by Pelassarias. She also pointed out that she was probably not giving as much attention to the game as she should because of other commitments.
You will recall that Dragon only really joined to help us make up numbers because she knew she was limited for time. I don't think this was just an excuse she was making to cover herself but was genuine about this. That would account for why a veteran player seemed to be making apparently contradictory and confusing statements, because she wasn't as focussed on the game as she normally would be.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 28, 2018 20:38:43 GMT
I know, when you had to give the other clue I cringed for you, despite being exonerated. I'd rather give no hints rather than give something away. If people choose to vote for me, so be it. but thats me. I guess if you were being eliminated you had little choice though, and little to lose. Well, I assumed that I should try to stay alive as Liara for the heroes. I'm still new-ish to this ya know. This is why I like being a spy lmaoooo Oh, I wasnt criticizing your choice. you did great. now I'm wondering who your night 2 investigation was. Of course, you can't say. But it doesn't stop me wondering.
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Post by fylimar on Apr 28, 2018 21:46:38 GMT
I don't understand why players are just leaving this game instead talking things out. I agree, but sadly, discussion culture has become a rare thing. I still don't get the reason for the fight and I sure as hell don't get adonniels quitting, but I'm beyond caring at this point and I have to get my health again, so no point in getting worked up about an internet quarrel Gervaise: we should not let this stop the game and I'm glad, that Reed is back in, so let's finish it and have fun
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