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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2018 8:54:57 GMT
Good morning folks. I've had a rather disturbed sleep owing to severe storms and waking up in the middle of the night thinking I'd heard an almighty crash that might indicate my roof had blown off. Turned out I must have been dreaming because after blurrily touring the house and peering down in the direction of my new barn, it seemed that everything was okay. Still I think the brain is working enough to give my take on the events of the previous day in the Citadel.
Day One was declared and Tittus almost instantly voted for me. I have to admit this seemed too fast to be a simple random vote so it seemed it must derive from Tittus' role. From my perspective this wouldn't make sense if he was Liara since he would know I am innocent so it was more probable to me that he was Diana and the RG targeted me. Whether he was a good or evil Diana it wouldn't make much difference as he would have to vote for me but an evil Diana would not only want to get me voted off but try and identify other innocents as well. Last round I stated that Diana was a liability even if she is on the side of the heroes so I'd rather vote for her than someone else since invariably we have more chance of voting off an innocent than a spy the first day and it might as well be Diana. As you will see if you check the posts, the only reason I voted for Tittus was that he targeted me. Since Moonae had also rather quickly jumped in and voted for me too, I joked that maybe this was retaliation for my efforts over on Skyhold where I had voted for them and though I did not know it at the time it turned out they were both spies. I was instantly suspicious of Moonae for jumping in so quickly on Tittus' vote since even if Tittus was not a spy Diana, Moonae might well be one wanting to get me eliminated and trying to start a bandwagon.
Then Adonniel started to question the vote. This would be an equally logical reaction whether she was good or evil. To anyone other than me Tittus' action might be that of Diana or Liara. If the former then it is just bad luck on my part, if the latter then it would suggest that Tittus had investigated me the first night. Naturally a good person wants to know if they should be joining the bandwagon, whilst a spy is actually trying to ascertain which role Tittus is because they would want to get Liara out of the way but wouldn't care less if Diana stays. So it is not a spy defending me but a spy trying to get information for their own cause.
This is where all the confusion starts. Initially Tittus says I was just a totally random vote to cause mayhem. Incidentally Moonae claims the same. I never really bought this explanation and started to wonder if in fact Tittus was evil Liara, so had investigated me the first night in order to get me voted off because they knew I couldn't harm them in doing so. When pressed further by Adonniel the really weird stuff starts happening. Tittus claims that I may not be his final vote (seemingly confirming it was just random) and suggests a deal with me to vote for someone else before asking if Adonniel will vote with him if he targets someone.
At this point everyone starts to question his actions with good reason. If Tittus had investigated me and found me to be evil, why would he suggest changing his vote or asking me to do a deal? I knew I was innocent but other people might still be thinking of voting for me, so I decided to call his bluff, pointed out I had only voted for him as retaliation for his vote on me and asked where he suggested I re-direct my vote. Nothing was forthcoming. I was asked to wait. I gave a mental shrug and went to bed.
When I came back the following morning (UK time) I discovered that not much more had happened in the way of voting but something seemed to be developing between Tittus and Adonniel. I was concerned that I was still ahead on the voting, albeit by just one vote, but it only needed one other person to vote for me and that might just about clinch it since people were so reluctant to commit themselves and Tittus was giving off mixed messages about who he might be, so I decided to risk a little hint. As time progressed the conflict between Tittus and Adonniel seemed to intensify and it seemed to me that it was more likely that if Tittus was good Liara he had investigated Adonniel in the night, found her to be evil but was trying to use that knowledge to gain more information about who to vote for so he wouldn't have to vote for her. Instead he wanted to vote off someone else but encourage the idea that Adonniel should be removed in the night. That would suggest a role that was dangerous to vote off in the day. Of course, it could equally be that Tittus was evil Liara, had investigated Adonniel in the night and wanted her shot rather than voted off for exactly the same reason.
Then Tittus changed his vote from me to Adonniel. This made me even more confused. I could understand why he changed from me if he was now convinced I was innocent but not why he would change it to Adonniel if he had been reluctant to target her in the first place because he knew who she was. I was not the only person to find this behaviour strange and everyone else seemed to be following Adonniel's lead and voting for Tittus. Clearly they could not all be spies so if other good people thought Tittus was suspicious why should I withdraw my vote at that point? So I didn't.
Then we discovered that Tittus was Liara, although at this point we still didn't know if good or evil Liara. Adonniel seemed to be very worried about being shot and suggested that I was the more suspicious person because Tittus had voted for me first, implying that if anyone should be shot it should be me. It could have been the panicked response of an innocent person but I'm inclined to think it was actually a spy trying to get Garrus to waste his shot on an innocent. I think most people were agreed that until we knew for definite if Liara was good or evil that Garrus should wait for more information before using up his ability and this is in fact what he did, suggesting that at least Garrus is good.
I hope that analysis has been helpful. I would only add that since Miranda would appear to have used up her protection last night, the number of roles that can protect from Cerberus is depleting and so we need to be careful not to let the spies manipulate us into voting them off.
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Post by Serza on Jan 17, 2018 8:58:48 GMT
Not terribly useful, but anyone who doesn't like you is a fool, and should be eaten in that case.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2018 9:05:08 GMT
Not terribly useful, but anyone who doesn't like you is a fool, and should be eaten in that case. Aw, you do say the nicest things.
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Post by Serza on Jan 17, 2018 9:06:53 GMT
Hey, I just like some things... Nothing weird about it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2018 9:18:03 GMT
Hey, I just like some things... Nothing weird about it. I never said there was. It's okay Serza, I know you are under exam stress so might have misinterpreted my response. I don't know about anyone else but I was thinking how with all the confusion and mayhem this round it actually mostly closely reflects what it would be like if Cerberus had infiltrated and indoctrinated Shepard's team. That's the whole point about indoctrination isn't it? You have no idea who it might be and you don't know who you can trust, except those who have been ruled out by elimination and Garrus, of course.
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Post by Moonae on Jan 17, 2018 10:28:36 GMT
At this point I'm highly suspicious of adonniel. There's not much that can change my mind at this point. Tittus is confirmed as Good Liara and if Good Liara strongly suggests taking someone out I'm gonna listen. Even if the majority of their behaviour makes no sense. At the same time with the implication of Evil Wrex, it would be better to have Garrus take them out. *crosses fingers Garrus is good*
So, I'll vote for someone else, probably.
I haven't been able to take very thorough notes so far, and I'm not sure how to wade through this mess after the fact. If there's some other suspicious behavior out there it has slipped by me, but I'll try to read through it all again and see what I find.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Tittus on Jan 17, 2018 11:10:16 GMT
I don't undestand one thing. In the previous round of the DA game, everybody believed in Fylimar even with the chance that she wasn't Leliana and Hero was voted off.
Now, I have the name of Liara right there in my name and you don't take my word and keep tiptopeing. Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 17, 2018 11:34:01 GMT
Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next? Tittus, I am not doubting your word as Liara. My problem is that when Fylimar instructed us to vote Hero off she didn't beat about the bush, vote for someone else and then change her mind, she just went straight for the spy. As I understand it, Space accidentally gave you the role of the person rather than just their status as a Cerberus spy and this was the reason you were reluctant to point the finger yourself last round, instead insisting that Garrus should shoot them. This would suggest that Adonniel is a dangerous role, like Wrex, that should not be VOTED off because they will take an innocent with them. However, now you are encouraging us to just get on and vote for her as though you would enjoy seeing someone innocent removed in this way. That's just plain stupid as we could lose another important role in the process. Either that or Adonniel isn't dangerous to vote off and that is why you are now happy for us to vote for her. You just don't seem to appreciate that everyone is trying to be careful not to make another mistake that will aid the spies.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ByonicClown
Posts: 874 Likes: 1,603
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Post by Tittus on Jan 17, 2018 11:48:27 GMT
Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next? Tittus, I am not doubting your word as Liara. My problem is that when Fylimar instructed us to vote Hero off she didn't beat about the bush, vote for someone else and then change her mind, she just went straight for the spy. As I understand it, Space accidentally gave you the role of the person rather than just their status as a Cerberus spy and this was the reason you were reluctant to point the finger yourself last round, instead insisting that Garrus should shoot them. This would suggest that Adonniel is a dangerous role, like Wrex, that should not be VOTED off because they will take an innocent with them. However, now you are encouraging us to just get on and vote for her as though you would enjoy seeing someone innocent removed in this way. That's just plain stupid as we could lose another important role in the process. You just don't seem to appreciate that everyone is trying to be careful not to make another mistake that will aid the spies. You're right, I don't appreciate it in the slightest, since I voted for her in the previous day knowing fully well that I would be the one that I would be eliminated, so I was basically making a sacrifice to the heroes. You don't know if Garrus is in the game, even if he is, you don't know if he's an ally. So you get only two options: Or you vote for Adonniel,or you vote for someone else that's has some chance of being a hero. In the second case, I highly suggest Pela.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jan 17, 2018 12:43:51 GMT
I don't undestand one thing. In the previous round of the DA game, everybody believed in Fylimar even with the chance that she wasn't Leliana and Hero was voted off. Now, I have the name of Liara right there in my name and you don't take my word and keep tiptopeing. Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next? Tittus I was the one who made the mistake of giving out too much info. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at me.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ByonicClown
Posts: 874 Likes: 1,603
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Post by Tittus on Jan 17, 2018 12:49:46 GMT
I don't undestand one thing. In the previous round of the DA game, everybody believed in Fylimar even with the chance that she wasn't Leliana and Hero was voted off. Now, I have the name of Liara right there in my name and you don't take my word and keep tiptopeing. Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next? Tittus I was the one who made the mistake of giving out too much info. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at me. I'm not mad, just a bit frustrated with people that play with arguments and keeping being toyed with illusions of words when there's only one course of action.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 17, 2018 12:53:55 GMT
Ok, I've been through the thread and I've decided to take one for the team, since my role is probably more useless than the other potential roles, that still might be in (Garrus, Javik, Kasumi....), so I vote for adonniel
Tittus: My case as Leliana was a bit different, since hadn't change my vote. I voted Hero and urged the others to do so too. Even if they hadn't believed me and voted me off, they would have believed after my identity was revealed. Which I do now too. I believe you and vote accordingly,but I have nothing to loose, a Garrus, who hasn't used his feat, has.
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Post by Moonae on Jan 17, 2018 13:12:29 GMT
Reading over the thread, I started to get suspicious of dragon. They seem to be (the only one) pushing the idea that Tittus had investigated gervaise rather than adonniel (personally I think it's pretty clear he investigated adonniel), and generally spend a lot of time making Tittus seem unreliable. On the other hand, Tittus's behavior didn't make much sense at first and pretty much everyone has pointed it out. Also, as I went further in the thread dragon seemed to change their stance somewhat over time. So, it could very well be that dragon is just reacting to an admittedely confusing situation, but I'm keeping my eye on it.
In the meantime I'll vote for pela, 'cause ... Tittus said so?
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ByonicClown
Posts: 874 Likes: 1,603
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Post by Tittus on Jan 17, 2018 13:17:48 GMT
Reading over the thread, I started to get suspicious of dragon. They seem to be (the only one) pushing the idea that Tittus had investigated gervaise rather than adonniel (personally I think it's pretty clear he investigated adonniel), and generally spend a lot of time making Tittus seem unreliable. On the other hand, Tittus's behavior didn't make much sense at first and pretty much everyone has pointed it out. Also, as I went further in the thread dragon seemed to change their stance somewhat over time. So, it could very well be that dragon is just reacting to an admittedely confusing situation, but I'm keeping my eye on it. In the meantime I'll vote for pela, 'cause ... Tittus said so? In the case of Pela, it's a suggestion. I got one night of investigation. She's just the #1 on my list of suspects.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Moonae on Jan 17, 2018 13:39:49 GMT
Reading over the thread, I started to get suspicious of dragon. They seem to be (the only one) pushing the idea that Tittus had investigated gervaise rather than adonniel (personally I think it's pretty clear he investigated adonniel), and generally spend a lot of time making Tittus seem unreliable. On the other hand, Tittus's behavior didn't make much sense at first and pretty much everyone has pointed it out. Also, as I went further in the thread dragon seemed to change their stance somewhat over time. So, it could very well be that dragon is just reacting to an admittedely confusing situation, but I'm keeping my eye on it. In the meantime I'll vote for pela, 'cause ... Tittus said so? In the case of Pela, it's a suggestion. I got one night of investigation. She's just the #1 on my list of suspects. My, uh ... sources tell me to vote for her anyway.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by romice on Jan 17, 2018 18:31:34 GMT
I change my vote from fylimar to pelassarias. I'm not sure that tittus is right on this, but I kind of do get the spy vibes from pela. And keeping adonniel alive could be a good test wheather Garrus is a good guy or a baddie (in this game, of course, in MET he is the bast person ever ).
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 17, 2018 19:23:22 GMT
Tittus I was the one who made the mistake of giving out too much info. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at me. I'm not mad, just a bit frustrated with people that play with arguments and keeping being toyed with illusions of words when there's only one course of action. I'll respond to everything else when I'm home and on my computer. But for now, I want to say that if anyone should be frustrated, it ought to be us, not you, since you were the one toying with words. First you vote for gervaise (without explaining why), then you insist that adonniel should be shot (initially without explaining why), then you insist we should vote her out, and now that some of us are trying to decide how to handle adonniel/evil Wrex, you say we should instead vote for pela? Wtf?? I'm trying to follow your recommendation because of your role, but you're just making things more confusing now. People believed previous Liaras/Lelianas because they were clearer with their suspicions. I get that you were trying to be creative, but it isn't our fault that we couldn't read your mind.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 17, 2018 21:41:25 GMT
Reading over the thread, I started to get suspicious of dragon. They seem to be (the only one) pushing the idea that Tittus had investigated gervaise rather than adonniel (personally I think it's pretty clear he investigated adonniel), and generally spend a lot of time making Tittus seem unreliable. On the other hand, Tittus's behavior didn't make much sense at first and pretty much everyone has pointed it out. Also, as I went further in the thread dragon seemed to change their stance somewhat over time. So, it could very well be that dragon is just reacting to an admittedely confusing situation, but I'm keeping my eye on it. In the meantime I'll vote for pela, 'cause ... Tittus said so? In the case of Pela, it's a suggestion. I got one night of investigation. She's just the #1 on my list of suspects. Why me? I'm one of the players besides dragontartare who has been trying to desperately figure out what happened during the last round. If I were a spy, I would have either suggested you investigated an innocent player that wasn't adonniel or gervaise or let the rest of the Heroes figure it out for themselves. If I were a Hero like that reporter I wouldn't mind a vote towards me. But I'm not, so I strongly recommend the rest of the Heroes to vote elsewhere.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 17, 2018 21:51:21 GMT
I don't undestand one thing. In the previous round of the DA game, everybody believed in Fylimar even with the chance that she wasn't Leliana and Hero was voted off. Now, I have the name of Liara right there in my name and you don't take my word and keep tiptopeing. Why not just get over with it, vote for Adonniel and see what happens next? Tittus I was the one who made the mistake of giving out too much info. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at me. No Space! You just made an honest mistake, and I do want to apologize about my comment earlier that dragon pointed out; It was way more harsh than I intended. Tittus's frustration/anger here is unwarranted. And like dragontartare said, if anyone were to be a tad frustrated, it should be the rest of the Heroes. And I don't believe in voting/ suggest shooting anyone without hearing from the suspects, which is why we're having a discussion about this right now.
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Post by fylimar on Jan 18, 2018 8:26:04 GMT
Where are you all, people? There is some voting to be done We here in Germany are about to fly away, there is a terrible storm coming and in the part, where I live, it is already very stormy. I wish, I could stay home today .
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 18, 2018 9:36:23 GMT
Did I mention before that I do my best thinking in bed? (When not being assaulted by bad dreams of course). So lying there in the small wee hours the old grey matter started whirling into action. Essentially we have a Catch 22 situation. We know who the spy is but we don't want to vote them off. Sorry, Fylimar, it is a noble gesture on your part but we have no control over who Adonniel takes with her. I really don't want to take that risk.
Tittus, I might be willing to believe you over Adonniel now but I sure as hell aren't going to blindly follow down any other path. I've re-read all the posts trying to work out why you should be so dead against Pela and I really don't see it. Plus the moment someone followed your lead, you backtracked to absolve yourself from responsibility should you turn out to be wrong, which is odd really considering no one can now make a retaliatory vote on you or think you are a spy for making the accusation.
So I started from scratch looking at the voting pattern and possible candidates for spies and I must admit, thanks to Tittus' efforts, there is not a lot to go on. I voted for Tittus simply because of the vote on me but as I explain above, I thought at the time that perhaps he was Diana and I think that character is a liability even if other people did follow my vote, which initially nobody did. Everyone else followed on after Adonniel had made her case. I have previously said that I do not believe (as Tittus seemed to) that all the people who voted for him are evil. I certainly don't believe all the spies voted for Tittus and do not yet have enough information to categorically point the finger at anyone else so do not think it a good idea to just take a wild stab.
That leaves the people who did not vote for Tittus, one of whom I am convinced is a spy. OG voted for Fylimar for no particular reason and then this round followed Adonniel in voting for Smiles. That seems more likely an indication that OG is not a spy but just trolling a known one in Adonniel and Smiles for basically being Smiles. Nor do I think Smiles is a spy because why would Adonniel vote for him? Romice was the first to vote for Adonniel last round before all the stuff kicked off with Tittus so extremely unlikely to be a spy.
So that just leaves Moonae. I already thought her actions suspicious last round when she immediately followed Tittus' lead in voting for me. Then this round she opts for Pela, again shortly after Tittus' accusation. When Tittus got worried about his alleged responsibility for this vote, Moonae said not to worry as she was also following her "sources". At first I found this puzzling because I had been so convinced that Tittus was Diana and there had seemed so little indication that anyone else was first round, that I had assumed Diana was the missing role. Then in the night it hit me. Of course Moonae is Diana. It wasn't apparent first round because before Moonae could make her obligatory vote for me, Tittus had swooped in and stolen her thunder. However, even after Tittus switched his vote Moonae remained firmly voting for me without otherwise getting involved in the discussions. Then this round she voted for Pelassarias. It may be that Tittus is still doing his "let's flush them out" tactics with regard to Pela and that is why he was worried that Moonae had immediately taken his advice but regardless, as Moonae assured him, even if he should change his mind about his "suspicions" about Pela, she is happy with her vote because of course she can't change it anyway because she is Diana. However, that is what I hate about these roles, it is a perfect cover for a spy, which is why Space was using it last game. Well this game all roles are genuine but may be either good or evil. In any case even if Diana is good, as I repeatedly have said both last game and this, she is a liability to the heroes and an asset to the spies. Sorry Moonae, I have nothing against you personally and you are a good player but I can't stand Diana and we are well shot of her.
If we vote for Adonniel we could potentially lose a vital role along with her. Garrus can shoot her in the night and if he does not do so this time then we will know that Garrus is evil. In the absence of a definite spy to vote off, I think it best to go for the role that might just as well be a spy for all the problems her presence causes in shielding the agents of Cerberus. I vote for Moonae.
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Post by romice on Jan 18, 2018 16:03:58 GMT
gervaise21 I agree with your reasoning. Diana is almost as bad as the agents. I'm still suspicious of pela, but it can wait another night. I'll use my final vote change from pelassarias to Moonae.
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Post by pelassarias on Jan 18, 2018 18:28:55 GMT
It seems to me the only reason why Tittus is suspicious of me is because I'm willing to hear out adonniel and the rest of the players instead of immediately voting for her, despite the fact that she could be Evil Wrex. I'm sorry Tittus, but I would rather not make any rash decisions here, especially after what happened last round. Also I do want to make it clear that just because I'm willing to hear the defense of a suspect and other players, doesn't mean I'm being manipulated,swayed, or "toyed with illusions of words" Now, on to the who I'm suspicious of. I'm not sure if it was intentional from Tittus, but I believe it's possible he did draw out one of the spies when he cast his suspicion towards me. One of them could have seen an opportunity to get rid of a Hero, and tried to take advantage of it. It's a perfect opportunity when you think about it. One of the could have easily said that they were simply following Tittus's suggestion. So it's either Moonae or romice. I still have no clue why romice is still claiming her suspicions towards me. This could be genuine, or she could be trying to sway other people to vote for me next round as spy. Moonae on the other hand has not only voted for me under the guise that she's following Tittus's suggestion, but she later backtracked and hinted that she's actually Diana. On top of that she threw suspicion towards dragontartare. Her main reason is due to the fact that dragontartare has suggested that Tittus investigated gervaise during the beginning of the last night. I'm not sure why this would be suspicious. Tittus did vote for gervaise at first, so this was a reasonable theory at the time. And of course dragontartare changed her mind when Tittus became adamant towards adonniel. Another reason Moonae is suspicous of dragon is the fact that dragontartare is making it seem like Tittus is unreliable. The fact of the matter is, is that Tittus is a rather unreliable Liara due to his voting pattern, suspicions, and behavior. There's nothing suspicious about a player making that point when facts seem to back their claims in my opinion. I find Moonae and romice equally suspicious, but I will follow gervaise and vote for Moonae because she did hint at Diana. So if she is a Hero, this sacrifice won't be much of a loss compared to other roles. ETA: Slipped my mind that Romice voted for adonniel last round, so she isn't as suspicious as Moonae. Her suspicions towards me is probably genuine, although I don't completely understand it.
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Post by dragontartare on Jan 18, 2018 19:10:09 GMT
Guh. Ok, I'm at work right now. Pela's analysis of Moonae deserves some thought, but I also have other suspicions I need to consider (romice and possibly gervaise...will explain why when I'm on my computer instead of my phone). The idea of leaving it up to Garrus to get adonniel makes me nervous, but it's not as if I can change the vote all by myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 20:30:02 GMT
//dies of old age waiting for everyone to decide whether to hang or shoot her
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