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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 21, 2017 1:58:33 GMT
Well, if it actually were RP, I'd agree with you. But since Bioware RPGs are closer to modestly interactive experiences (a "main" story, with a few player-selected variations in the plot), policing dialogue choices makes for more consistent PC character development, from the writer's point of view. In other words, Bioware's dialogue system has never been about player agency. It's about telling the best possible interactive story. True RP would require PC improv. No video game that I know of has come close to that. Well, I suppose the Vent channel of an FPS or MMO comes close. Why is the writer's POV of interest to me? That is an excellent question. Do you like really good writing and storytelling in games? Do you play Bioware mostly for the story that gets told, or the ability to do whatever you want in the game? If you'll accept the premise that good story and player agency are in tension with each other, if not diametrically opposed goals, then the writer's pov is important if you prefer games with good stories over more player agency. I'd argue that Bioware falls on the "good stories" side of the divide, and as such, player agency is compromised. The writer's pov is forced upon the player in exactly those places that are crucial for a good narrative with memorable story beats, emotional peaks/valleys, etc. Compare to Bethesda games, like Fallout and TES. They tend to fall more on the player agency side (e.g., you can totally become a slaver or a bandit leader and the game is fine with you doing so, and NPCs even react appropriately), but then the story is compromised. I get you. I guess to me the current system (MEA or DAI) is just as bad, in terms of the disconnect between my character concept and the available dialogue choices, with respect to agency. But, being equally bad, at least my system makes the dialogue choices more dynamic, in that one run where you go all Rambo will have different dialogue than the one where you go Mother Theresa. Of course, the same could be achieved if I just put all 9 choices in the dialogue wheel every single time, but then the UX designers would pull their hair out and throw their Wacoms on the floor in a tiff.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 21, 2017 2:15:50 GMT
Well, if it actually were RP, I'd agree with you. But since Bioware RPGs are closer to modestly interactive experiences (a "main" story, with a few player-selected variations in the plot), policing dialogue choices makes for more consistent PC character development, from the writer's point of view. In other words, Bioware's dialogue system has never been about player agency. It's about telling the best possible interactive story. True RP would require PC improv. No video game that I know of has come close to that. Well, I suppose the Vent channel of an FPS or MMO comes close. I don't quite agree that there isn't roleplay; you can roleplay within the given limitations provided by the writers. Choosing among a set of options is still roleplay because you are (ideally) making that choice based on your character's history, personality, knowledge, experience, etc, and that will be different from character to character. For me, that's not enough, particularly when none of the available choices come even remotely close to my character concept. And it's not like I'm trying to fight the writers from the word go -- I try to pick what I think is a conforming character to what I guessed the story was going to be about, but in a first run, I'm often wrong, sometimes horribly wrong. My first run of DAI was a totally mess, character-concept wise. My character flipped flopped across most of the moral dilemmas the game presented, because I kept wanting to go in a direction that the game didn't really want me to go, even though I thought I was going in an approved direction. True. It makes me a little sad that the watered-down, precanned experience that comes from cRPG is what most people now consider "roleplaying games", and quill and scroll games now need a different term to set them apart.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 21, 2017 16:02:02 GMT
So either - I'm right about the set personality affecting Choice options but my googlefoo has failed me
- Those particular Choice options were written/performed only as aggressive and various Choice options in the game were written in tones irrespective of the set personality.
I think it's this; while not *super* prevalent in DAI there were a couple of times where I raised an eyebrow at my Inq and thought 'Damn, dial it down a notch, we our not losing our heads over that."
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 21, 2017 18:42:46 GMT
That is an excellent question. Do you like really good writing and storytelling in games? Do you play Bioware mostly for the story that gets told, or the ability to do whatever you want in the game? If you'll accept the premise that good story and player agency are in tension with each other, if not diametrically opposed goals, then the writer's pov is important if you prefer games with good stories over more player agency. I'd argue that Bioware falls on the "good stories" side of the divide, and as such, player agency is compromised. The writer's pov is forced upon the player in exactly those places that are crucial for a good narrative with memorable story beats, emotional peaks/valleys, etc.While I agree that there is a tension between story and player agency, I don't really agree with the italed part. There is space for such things without the writers assigning mental states to the PC, and attempting to assign those states is hit-or-miss. See, for instance, Shepard's reaction after Priority:Thessia mission. I don't think that hit for a high enough percentage of players to have been worth doing. I'm not sure I'd use "react appropriately" there. Appropriately for a TES game, I guess, but TES games are about limiting consequences for a player's actions in order to increase player freedom. Not that Bio doesn't do this a bit too; some ME NPCs put up with actions from Shepard that they really shouldn't. But in general, Bio limits PC actions to what they can handle the consequences for, while Bethesda limits the consequences directly. This tension exists even if we don't care about story per se. Right. There's only so much wordcount; either it goes into alternate autodialogues, or into alternate player-controlled options.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 21, 2017 18:45:05 GMT
My first run of DAI was a totally mess, character-concept wise. My character flipped flopped across most of the moral dilemmas the game presented, because I kept wanting to go in a direction that the game didn't really want me to go, even though I thought I was going in an approved direction. Could you provide some details? I thought that DAI was pretty good about this, largely because who the PC is isn't actually all that important to the situation, or to the story.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Nov 21, 2017 21:22:47 GMT
There is space for such things without the writers assigning mental states to the PC, and attempting to assign those states is hit-or-miss. I wish the Bioware writers agreed with you. I found myself struggling with the writer's pov in DAI a lot. The degrees of freedom in character concept for an Inquisitor are quite narrow in DAI, as has been argued elsewhere. Not sure what you mean here, since I meant the opposite. In Skyrim, if you get caught stealing or murdering, the guard is on you and/or you get thrown in jail. In FO3, if you're a slaver with ultra negative karma, otherwise friendly Wastelanders instantly aggro and attack you. Those seem like consequences to me -- unless you mean that there are players that want those things to happen, for nihilistic kicks?
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Nov 22, 2017 12:47:16 GMT
Isn't Bioware dead, murdered or something?
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Nov 22, 2017 12:54:43 GMT
Isn't Bioware dead, murdered or something? Nope. (Unless all the employees who will be moving into their shiny new building a year from now are secretly ghosts. Which, to be fair, would be pretty cool.)
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 22, 2017 13:06:51 GMT
This is why I think they NEED to implement an option that you can turn on/off which let's you see the full and exact answer by hovering it with your mouse. I addressed this in my post earlier in the thread. What alanc9 says below is correct. They said they tested it and found that it didn't work. They don't want to show players the full line. They like the paraphrase system. I would prefer the full line as well, but it's not likely to happen. My understanding is that seeing full text failed during DA2 playtesting. Players felt they had to turn it on, but turning it on made the experience worse. Showing full text failed....by which criteria? Certainly not roleplaying, since this means you decide about exactly what to say, not just you decide about the general direction of what you're going to say. You know your mind, or not, and if you don't know what you're going to say, you don't know your mind, and thus, you are not roleplaying but just observing with a little kick in a general direction here and there. I suspect the demographic of their "failed" test included mostly players who are used to experiencing things as in a movie. Whatever they do to the dialogue system, I consider an option where you know what you're going to say if you activate a certain option essential. I can't count the times I hesitated when making a choice in the ME or DA games after DAO, because I couldn't make an informed decision about which option fits me best, but was stumped by the question "What nonsense or character-derailing bullshit will I be forced to say if I activate that option. It's absolutely crippling. Whatever they said "failed", it was not roleplaying as I understand it. From my POV, the paraphrasing was the most epic, most dramatic feature failure in my 35-year videogaming life, the single most damaging feature change in the whole history of roleplaying games on electronic media.
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Post by Ieldra on Nov 22, 2017 13:23:10 GMT
For me, that's not enough, particularly when none of the available choices come even remotely close to my character concept. And it's not like I'm trying to fight the writers from the word go -- I try to pick what I think is a conforming character to what I guessed the story was going to be about, but in a first run, I'm often wrong, sometimes horribly wrong. My first run of DAI was a totally mess, character-concept wise. My character flipped flopped across most of the moral dilemmas the game presented, because I kept wanting to go in a direction that the game didn't really want me to go, even though I thought I was going in an approved direction. Yeah, I know what you mean. I didn't experience this quite as badly, but I feel as if the writers attempted to destroy my character in Trespasser, where things were much more limited than in the main game. Apart from that, I didn't think DAI's was *that* bad. I could deal with it most of the time, but what I didn't like was the lack of depth, in terms of the things you talk about. Most dialogue was exhausted after a few generalities. This is more about writing than dialogue structure, though. I think most Bioware writers don't really know a lot about the things they make their characters talk about, while I have more of a reflective mind and apply that to my own experience, so I'll never be satisfied with generalities, even if they are (said to be) emotionally satisfying. Emotionally satisfying, for me, is exploring ideas with my character in depth (no, that doesn't rule out that kicking the enemy in the ass can also be satisfying )
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Post by House Targaryen on Nov 22, 2017 15:27:30 GMT
Isn't Bioware dead, murdered or something? Its barely alive, kept that way thanks to the Evil Empire
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Post by Tittus on Nov 22, 2017 21:16:02 GMT
I don't quite agree that there isn't roleplay; you can roleplay within the given limitations provided by the writers. Choosing among a set of options is still roleplay because you are (ideally) making that choice based on your character's history, personality, knowledge, experience, etc, and that will be different from character to character. For me, that's not enough, particularly when none of the available choices come even remotely close to my character concept. And it's not like I'm trying to fight the writers from the word go -- I try to pick what I think is a conforming character to what I guessed the story was going to be about, but in a first run, I'm often wrong, sometimes horribly wrong. My first run of DAI was a totally mess, character-concept wise. My character flipped flopped across most of the moral dilemmas the game presented, because I kept wanting to go in a direction that the game didn't really want me to go, even though I thought I was going in an approved direction. I'm really curious now. How was your first run? You wanted to do a dictator or something?
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Nov 22, 2017 21:23:01 GMT
Isn't Bioware dead, murdered or something? Its barely alive, kept that way thanks to the Evil Empire Then let us hope that DA4 will be a New Hope and that will bring about the Return of Good Bioware Writing. I for one am quite tired of the EA Empire Striking us gamers Back over and over again.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Nov 22, 2017 22:29:54 GMT
Its barely alive, kept that way thanks to the Evil Empire Then let us hope that DA4 will be a New Hope and that will bring about the Return of Good Bioware Writing. I for one am quite tired of the EA Empire Striking us gamers Back over and over again. Probably not. Over the years they keep losing their talent that's been there for a long time.
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Post by JokeDealer on Nov 30, 2017 22:32:41 GMT
I don't think that a new dialogue system is needed, but I do think they need to better utilize the current system. The dialogue wheel has a fair amount of untapped potential, since other buttons could easily be used to switch to additional dialogue options (if Bioware was so inclined to include more). Personally, I would like to see reactions added to the dialogue wheel, which would be non-verbal responses to dialogue such as punching, hugging, or shrugging. I think that would be a step in the right direction.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 1, 2017 0:07:09 GMT
since other buttons could easily be used to switch to additional dialogue options How do you mean other buttons? Keep in mind the PC keyboard/mouse setup as well. Personally, I would like to see reactions added to the dialogue wheel, which would be non-verbal responses to dialogue such as punching, hugging, or shrugging. I think that would be a step in the right direction. While I agree this would be nice, the issue here is with animation resources. It takes more resources to render an animation than it does for a VA to say a line of dialogue. But I am ALL FOR more hugs. We only got one damn hug in DAI, and you have to do something terrible to see it. There is also a nice handhold animation during a scene of the Dorian romance, but that's not shown on screen (seen with flycam).
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 1, 2017 1:12:29 GMT
All I want is the symbols back so I can tell which option is meant to be the funny/sarcastic one.
And also for the next game to actually have some funny lines IN it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 1, 2017 1:21:21 GMT
Then let us hope that DA4 will be a New Hope and that will bring about the Return of Good Bioware Writing. I for one am quite tired of the EA Empire Striking us gamers Back over and over again. Probably not. Over the years they keep losing their talent that's been there for a long time. Lol, that's a normal thing for every company in every industry. People retire, or move on to new opportunities. That's how life works. It's like saying the local grocery store is headed for ruin because your favourite assistant manager moved away.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 2, 2021 12:10:53 GMT
Honestly, I dislike the emotion based options. I'd prefer if they were just options and not have them under any "tag". I'd prefer if it was more like DAO where they were all mixed together and you choose what you feel like your character should say/do in that moment and not think, "oh this is the obvious aggressive option, I'm going for this one since I'm playing an aggressive character". Something like Telltale's choices would be great too, which are usually 3 plus a silent option (which is a valid answer and characters usually react to it), but those 3 aren't the obvious diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive answers, they are just answers that fit that particular moment. Another thing I'd like to see come back and that could add a lot to dialogue and to our character's personality is persuasion/intimidation, but I have a feeling we won't see this again unfortunately.
The problem with them not being labeled, however, is that I (the player) may read an option and hear it one way in my head, but then I pick it and it is delivered and/or received in a completely different manner. I had this happen a lot in DAO. For example - I pick a line I believe to be, or intend to be, sarcastic/ironic but the person hearing it takes it as though I am serious and reacts in a way I can't anticipate.
On the other hand, if I know how the line will be delivered ahead of time, then I can better choose how I want to sound and my words as well as the reaction both match my intent.
I have hear that on a other thread and i respect it, but DAI emotion were bad. I read a sentense and would be cool with it, but the symbole say something different. So i stand there and say: oh i want sentse 1 with symbole 3 as answere. So i don't make a choice.
because i can say all sentences angry, tearful and defense.
In DAO it wasn't better, but there i make a choice. There i work to understand the companion and why they think this sentse isn't to there liking.
Yes i like psychology.
And at it is: If you like the symbole and the dev. like the Wheel, i hope they go with DA2. that saves me the chaos. Because humor, diplomat and agressive aren't emotion, i can't say all sentences with them and i know what they mean.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 2, 2021 12:27:45 GMT
This is why I think they NEED to implement an option that you can turn on/off which let's you see the full and exact answer by hovering it with your mouse. I addressed this in my post earlier in the thread. What alanc9 says below is correct. They said they tested it and found that it didn't work. They don't want to show players the full line. They like the paraphrase system. I would prefer the full line as well, but it's not likely to happen. My understanding is that seeing full text failed during DA2 playtesting. Players felt they had to turn it on, but turning it on made the experience worse. For me the full line would be okay, but i don't need it. What i need is what did my character think of this sentence. An exemple: (elven city elve Origin) You woke up and see a women i don't know, but the Character should know. she ask me what day is today and the answeres i can chose are weard.
I need a statement what my character means with this sentence. 1.he wants to annoy this person 2. he / she doesn't like this day and wants to sleep through it.
The same problem with DAI i need more information to answer. The symbole doesn't help. I think DA2 were easier, but i didn't played it, because of fighting system and not enough developing time.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 2, 2021 12:36:21 GMT
In DA2 I hated both the paraphrases which I frequently misunderstood and the personality system within their dialogue wheel. At no point should the game be choosing my characters tone for me. I'll select an aggressive or sarcastic tone when I want my character to display one. That system didn't even make sense, people react differently to different people/events/stimuli: Not this 'your mostly aggressive to/about acquaintances/strangers so we'll automate aggression into you choice dialogues with loved ones' malarkey. Leave my misanthrope who only likes Isabela and Bethany alone damn you. DAI was an improvement. Better quality parphrases; the removal of automated personality choices; and the inclusion of tone icons. Big fan of the tone icons, even DAO could have benefitted from them as the full line was mostly good enough but on rare occasion you could misjudge the intended tone. I'd still prefer full line choices, for role playing I want to be able to see my options and choose the one that best suits the way my character feels/would say - I cannot fully do that when I'm only surmising what the options are, particularily bad with the choice decisions which didn't have tone icons. You wouldn't necesarily need the full line for all options - most investigates would probably do just fine with a paraphrase. But big decisions, statements of opinions/feelings should have full lines. I know they say that it's less fun/boring to listen to the line again after reading it - but oh honey, my lads: with particurly delicate/uncertain decisions I would pick, reload, pick, reload, pick, reload - just so I could know what the options are and choose the correct one for my character. You can't convince me that just showing me the full line would be more tiresome than doing that - it would certainly be less time consuming. I want to roleplay, not just watch. But I don't expect them to back down on paraphrases - so on to an improvement that they might actually go with: A defect in the DAI dialogue system is that because the Choice options (as opppsed to the Investigate and Emotion options) only come in one version/tone - that tone must inevitably be stoic/neutral. This resulted in many people finding the inquisitor too bland/not emotional or distinct enough. So having multiple tone versions of a line like da2 would be good, but sans da2's automated behind the scene system. So I would suggest having multiple readings of the same line in different tones, or different versions of the line with the same basic meaning/result, for each Choice option (which: on a case by case basis). Similar too how you had multiple tone versions for the disband/reform choice at the end of trespasser but instead of filling up the circle you select the choice and then get taken to a sub menu for tone choice (much as how you select investigate and then get taken to an investigate submenu). Stoic/neutral would be the default option that's always there because it allows people to project whatever emotion they want onto the PC's state of mind and the game can't have every possiblilty. Then you would have other Tone Icons there aswell, which ones depending on the situation. Typically there would be 2 more (for a total of three) but there may be as many as 3 more or only one depending. Some situations might just have the stoic option if the line is to short/simple to have different versions. Example: Instead of just having 'Accept Quest' and 'Decline Quest' you'd have.. Quest: Save my chickens!! - Accept Quest
- Stoically accept
- Humourasly accept
- Confusedly accept
- Decline Quest
- Stoically refuse
- Regretfully Refuse
- Refuse like a dickbag
Silly example but the point is that aside from just accepting or declining you also get to display your character's personality. Even DAO often had multiple ways of accepting/declining/reacting to a quest. If applied to all choice options it could be greatly beneficial - and we know their willing to write multiple tone versions of choice lines because they did so in da2. I like the idea, but i think it is to much work to do so, an way to expensive.
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Post by river82 on Jan 3, 2021 1:32:02 GMT
So this is why I voted no.
The potential advantage of using an emotion based system isn't to surprise the reader or player regarding what is said, but it lessens the choices necessary. Well, not so much lessens but streamlines.
Instead of sentence by sentence choices, the player can choose to react to an entire situation angrily, joyfully, diplomatically, stoicly, emotionally, and then a whole scene gets played to the viewer with multiple responses by the protagonist without the players continued input. It lessens the whole "2 sentences, oh another relatively meaningless dialogue choice" thing. This way you could make one choice as a player which affects the tone and how the character reacts for a whole scene.
I think that's a pretty interesting thing to explore which is made possible by Bioware's emotion based dialogue system. So I voted no.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jan 3, 2021 3:16:16 GMT
I don't like the idea of an emotion based system, mostly because emotion is a nuanced thing that might not line up with the dialogue very well. Fortunately, voiced lines can help with that (the days of silent protagonists could make that hard).
You can do it. One really old game, Suikoden V was EXCELLENT at conveying emotion in their silent protagonist just because of the way his face and animations were done. But not only has BioWARE had trouble with that in games like Andromeda, it's not really their thing, and Suikoden was a significantly more linear story.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 4, 2021 0:04:49 GMT
Isn't Bioware dead, murdered or something? Nope. (Unless all the employees who will be moving into their shiny new building a year from now are secretly ghosts. Which, to be fair, would be pretty cool.) Wait, I thought they already moved last September.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jan 4, 2021 3:41:34 GMT
Nope. (Unless all the employees who will be moving into their shiny new building a year from now are secretly ghosts. Which, to be fair, would be pretty cool.) Wait, I thought they already moved last September. If you check the date, the comment you replied to is from 2017. (Someone necro'ed this thread.)
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