bshep
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Post by bshep on Dec 2, 2017 14:59:13 GMT
Usually when I call someone 'a somethingist', I go by what they identify as, whether directly or implicitly. I'll call someone a homophobe if they're afraid of homosexuals or homosexuality (a fear that in almost all to all cases I consider unwarranted/irrational), or their opposition is so strong as to appear as fear, but I won't call them homophobic if they don't react in any negative way but disagreement. Otherwise, I use terms like 'somethingist thinking', 'acting somethingist', and so on. I didn't read the book, but from my readings of posts here, I wouldn't call Alec a human supremacist, but a humanist with supremacist notions. But I'd call TIM supremacist. "Someone who believes that a particular type or group of people should lead or have control over other types or groups of people because they believe they are better". That is the definition of a supremacist(from a dictionary), that is far from what Alec is. Alec simply believe humanity cannot thrive and evolve in the Milky Way because a lot of pathways were already laid to them by all the other who came to be a spacefaring race before the humans. Then it also come into play the fact that he believe the way for humans to thrive is by merging with AI, a idea that almost no one in Citadel space (humans included) are fond of. He wanted to start from the beggining with people using SAMs -yes his main goal was to have everyone using one SAM: pathfinder and pathfinder team were kind of a proof of concept for him, to show it could be done to everyone else.
But he had no trouble with the other species doing the same in Andromeda, the only reason the SAM send to the other pathifinders were the "standard" version was only because Initiative brass forbid him from making further changes on them.
So he wanted a clean slate, a fresh start, but he never showed any kind of "we should dominate the other species in Andromeda" kinda of idea.
Even ingame we see how fondly Raeka speaks of Ryder, she regards him as a friend and the reason she joined the Initiative. This is hardly the kind of thing that would fit the profile of someone with supremacist ideals.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 2, 2017 16:14:01 GMT
Usually when I call someone 'a somethingist', I go by what they identify as, whether directly or implicitly. I'll call someone a homophobe if they're afraid of homosexuals or homosexuality (a fear that in almost all to all cases I consider unwarranted/irrational), or their opposition is so strong as to appear as fear, but I won't call them homophobic if they don't react in any negative way but disagreement. Otherwise, I use terms like 'somethingist thinking', 'acting somethingist', and so on. I didn't read the book, but from my readings of posts here, I wouldn't call Alec a human supremacist, but a humanist with supremacist notions. But I'd call TIM supremacist. But he had no trouble with the other species doing the same in Andromeda, the only reason the SAM send to the other pathifinders were the "standard" version was only because Initiative brass forbid him from making further changes on them.
That's not true. He directly says that other Arks got Sams because Initiative told Alec to make them. And he did, basic versions of what Initiative thinks Sam is supposed to do.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 2, 2017 18:10:43 GMT
But he had no trouble with the other species doing the same in Andromeda, the only reason the SAM send to the other pathifinders were the "standard" version was only because Initiative brass forbid him from making further changes on them.
That's not true. He directly says that other Arks got Sams because Initiative told Alec to make them. And he did, basic versions of what Initiative thinks Sam is supposed to do. I read it the same way as bshepThe other SAMs were... limited, at least in comparison with Ryder's personal SAM. The initiative had insisted on it.
His SAM, however, was for his use, and he was going to develop that one however he damn well pleased.
From chapter 7
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Dec 2, 2017 18:22:02 GMT
A direct quote from the book (chapter 7). Alec frowned and shut off the shower, toweling off. “This is new,” he said.“You’ve never shown any interest in reproduction before.”
“No sapient being wishes to be alone,” SAM replied.
“You aren’t. Every Pathfinder team lead has a SAM installation.”
“Not like me.”
That was true. The other SAMs were… limited, at least in comparison with Ryder’s personal SAM. The Initiative had insisted on it, and he’d agreed, in order to have a chance to finish the end-stage development.
And he’d kept his word. The SAM units he produced for the Initiative’s use were precisely what they’d asked for: adaptive, intelligent software that ran on the platform of an organic being’s body, enhancing and augmenting it at will.
His SAM, however, was for his use, and he was going to develop that one however he damn well pleased—to the limits of the SAM’s capabilities. What the Initiative didn’t know wouldn’t hurt them.
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Post by sil on Dec 2, 2017 18:30:56 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty clear that Ryder was looking for an edge over the other races in any way he could, including a vastly more advanced SAM. He's a supremacist.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Dec 2, 2017 18:37:27 GMT
That the Initiative was unwilling to take risks with the SAM send to the other pathfinders hardly makes him a supremacist. He does however fit the profile of a mad scientist considering he didn't inform Cora about the true extent of the experiment he wanted to do with her and SAM-E.
edit: talking about this book is making me want to start a new playthrough. Maybe i will do it by christmas.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 2, 2017 23:46:08 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty clear that Ryder was looking for an edge over the other races in any way he could, including a vastly more advanced SAM. He's a supremacist. The edge in itself is not a bad thing. That's just being competitive. But if its ever anything like making you/your side set up to have the edge for the rest of time, then you're literally setting you/your side up to be 'supreme'. That's partially, imo, why there is some virtue in humility - accepting that sometimes you/your side isn't always going to be the best, and that this is okay. And I do think Alec is okay with that in itself. No tantrums, no panic from him. But oftentimes competition does give rise to notions of securing supremacy. Flipping the game board in your favor. Say, when having the start in a new galaxy . Thus, 'notions'.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 3, 2017 20:50:13 GMT
Finished the book today, it really is great, ties in really well. Knowing the Ryder family secret makes Ryder's "talk" with Cora near the end weigh a lot more.
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Post by MarilynRobert on Dec 5, 2017 2:48:02 GMT
That the Initiative was unwilling to take risks with the SAM send to the other pathfinders hardly makes him a supremacist. He does however fit the profile of a mad scientist considering he didn't inform Cora about the true extent of the experiment he wanted to do with her and SAM-E.
edit: talking about this book is making me want to start a new playthrough. Maybe i will do it by christmas. Reading the book has caused me to make my very first Cora-mancing Ryder. Spoilers and my thoughts below: I've always avoided Cora because her voice bugged me (although now I can't imagine her seeming right with any other voice) and because of her constant Asari huntress talk...drove me bonkers. So started reading the book and it's all Cora and all Asari huntress but after a while I got used to it and I did come to see that Cora IS an Asari huntress and a darn good one.
In fact, the book showed, IMO, that Cora would have made an excellent Pathfinder. She was able to lead large groups of people through life and death situations, thought on her feet when survival seemed almost impossible, threw herself in dangerous situations to save others when she could have run, and handled whatever came her way. It's hard for me to believe she didn't have more confidence in herself in the game when she proved herself so well in the book.
Course the book made it clear why she could never be a Pathfinder, through no fault of her own. I'm going to enjoy playing the game again with this new knowledge of Cora in my mind.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Dec 5, 2017 8:19:59 GMT
Dammit I'll order it now then.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 5, 2017 9:23:49 GMT
I've always avoided Cora because her voice bugged me (although now I can't imagine her seeming right with any other voice) and because of her constant Asari huntress talk...drove me bonkers. So started reading the book and it's all Cora and all Asari huntress but after a while I got used to it and I did come to see that Cora IS an Asari huntress and a darn good one.
In fact, the book showed, IMO, that Cora would have made an excellent Pathfinder. She was able to lead large groups of people through life and death situations, thought on her feet when survival seemed almost impossible, threw herself in dangerous situations to save others when she could have run, and handled whatever came her way. It's hard for me to believe she didn't have more confidence in herself in the game when she proved herself so well in the book.
Course the book made it clear why she could never be a Pathfinder, through no fault of her own. I'm going to enjoy playing the game again with this new knowledge of Cora in my mind. It also made it clear that Alec really did want her to be his replacement, making it sound like he wasn't expecting to live that long anyway.
It also explains why she was so annoyed the pathfinder mantle jumped her. Ryder had convinced her to stay so she could shape the new world.
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bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Dec 5, 2017 10:44:14 GMT
I've always avoided Cora because her voice bugged me (although now I can't imagine her seeming right with any other voice) and because of her constant Asari huntress talk...drove me bonkers. So started reading the book and it's all Cora and all Asari huntress but after a while I got used to it and I did come to see that Cora IS an Asari huntress and a darn good one.
In fact, the book showed, IMO, that Cora would have made an excellent Pathfinder. She was able to lead large groups of people through life and death situations, thought on her feet when survival seemed almost impossible, threw herself in dangerous situations to save others when she could have run, and handled whatever came her way. It's hard for me to believe she didn't have more confidence in herself in the game when she proved herself so well in the book.
Course the book made it clear why she could never be a Pathfinder, through no fault of her own. I'm going to enjoy playing the game again with this new knowledge of Cora in my mind. It also made it clear that Alec really did want her to be his replacement, making it sound like he wasn't expecting to live that long anyway.
It also explains why she was so annoyed the pathfinder mantle jumped her. Ryder had convinced her to stay so she could shape the new world. Unfortunately Alec never had the courage to tell Cora the truth about how his personal (and heavily modified) SAM was unable to merge with anyone not sharing his genetic code.
ps: I liked how they used those news intermission between chapters to make up the timeline from when the book takes place: we have mentions about Fehl Prime "disaster", then Vega receiving a medal for trying to save civilians there, to Commander Shepard being see on Omega and a ship being spoted leaving the Omega 4 Relay.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 5, 2017 11:51:47 GMT
It Kinda makes me exciting to see what they can do in the future (I still hope for more content on some sort) Alec's vision to have some sort of SAM integration with all humans and to give all humans basic biotics and the training to use it.
I hope to see one of the schools Alec envisioned just so we know he didn't die for nothing.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 5, 2017 13:44:58 GMT
A direct quote from the book (chapter 7). Alec frowned and shut off the shower, toweling off. “This is new,” he said.“You’ve never shown any interest in reproduction before.”
“No sapient being wishes to be alone,” SAM replied.
“You aren’t. Every Pathfinder team lead has a SAM installation.”
“Not like me.”
That was true. The other SAMs were… limited, at least in comparison with Ryder’s personal SAM. The Initiative had insisted on it, and he’d agreed, in order to have a chance to finish the end-stage development.
And he’d kept his word. The SAM units he produced for the Initiative’s use were precisely what they’d asked for: adaptive, intelligent software that ran on the platform of an organic being’s body, enhancing and augmenting it at will.
His SAM, however, was for his use, and he was going to develop that one however he damn well pleased—to the limits of the SAM’s capabilities. What the Initiative didn’t know wouldn’t hurt them. I see your way, still I see it as he never intended to give others last-gen Sams, i.e. Initiative insisted on having other Sams the way Alec advertised it, not on them being limited. It Kinda makes me exciting to see what they can do in the future (I still hope for more content on some sort) Alec's vision to have some sort of SAM integration with all humans and to give all humans basic biotics and the training to use it.
I hope to see one of the schools Alec envisioned just so we know he didn't die for nothing. I'd rather not, because it comes in package with tiny side effect. Of having an AI with full control of your body.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 5, 2017 14:26:59 GMT
It Kinda makes me exciting to see what they can do in the future (I still hope for more content on some sort) Alec's vision to have some sort of SAM integration with all humans and to give all humans basic biotics and the training to use it.
I hope to see one of the schools Alec envisioned just so we know he didn't die for nothing. I'd rather not, because it comes in package with tiny side effect. Of having an AI with full control of your body. The AI isn't in control it's just there to cover your weaknesses and enhance your strengths. Sign me up 😉
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 5, 2017 15:39:56 GMT
I'd rather not, because it comes in package with tiny side effect. Of having an AI with full control of your body. The AI isn't in control Oh, I bet that's what your brain will be thinking while it can modified by said AI on molecular level.
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Post by link2twenty on Dec 5, 2017 16:03:07 GMT
Oh, I bet that's what your brain will be thinking while it can modified by said AI on molecular level.
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Post by Fogg on Dec 9, 2017 15:39:02 GMT
Their release schedule compared to the timeline of events is a little odd. Book | Released | Timeline | Uprising | 1st | 2nd | Initiation | 2nd (planned 3rd) | 1st | Annihilation | 3rd (planned 2nd) | 3rd |
The original planned release schedule was different and would've started with Initiation. Probably it wasn't finished on time.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 14, 2017 9:27:06 GMT
And he is a dick. And human supremacist. This is neat. I always headcanoned Alec as being a human supremacist ala TIM. Tbh, his background confirms that already. Some of his memories in-game also points to a human-centric dispositon. Human-centric is a much better description than human supremacist, a description with which I strongly disagree. Alec wanted humanity to be able to catch up with civilizations that are thousands of years ahead. He knew this would take a very long time, if it even could be done. He wanted SAM to even the playing field. He had no interest in putting humanity on top. He simply didn't want us to forever lag behind the galaxy's power-broker species. I enjoyed this novel. Cora made an excellent protagonist, and would've been an interesting protagonist for a game. I really enjoyed the aspects related to her time among the asari. She just got back from four years of total immersion in an alien culture. She served with Talein's Daughters at least as long as with the Alliance proper. It makes sense that she'd see the world in relation to those experiences and discuss it with Tempest's crew. It has been the most significant time in her adult life, to this point. We actually get to meet Janae and some of the other huntresses. It was nice. There were revelations regarding SAM's history, development, purpose, importance, etc... It was cool to see SAM earlier in its ( his, as Alec says) development. Our SAM is both more advanced and more limited than earlier versions. I liked that the story truly delved into Ai R&D. We all know that it happens, but it's rare that we get to see it. I already liked both Cora and Alec. Getting extra time with each of them made me like them all the more. I wish this novel could've been ready and released alongside or before the game. It enhances the story of the Initiative and several important characters. This is definitely the best ME novel to date. That's not surprising, given the novelist's skill and her familiarity with the setting. Edit: I just recalled two other strengths of this novel. Asari culture got some nice development via details presumably crafted by Ms. Jemisin. She even crafted a plausible description of how that asari slow-fall works. It was definitely invented by ME writers who don't understand physics; but Ms. Jemisin has bailed them out with her creativity. Hell, there is even a small but insightful bit about the aesthetics of quarian ship design in the book. Touches like this separate good books from the mediocre. I just found this thread, and see that some of this has been debated already.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 14, 2017 12:01:33 GMT
This is neat. I always headcanoned Alec as being a human supremacist ala TIM. Tbh, his background confirms that already. Some of his memories in-game also points to a human-centric dispositon. Human-centric is a much better description than human supremacist, a description with which I strongly disagree. Alec wanted humanity to be able to catch up with civilizations that are thousands of years ahead. He knew this would take a very long time, if it even could be done. He wanted SAM to even the playing field. He had no interest in putting humanity on top. He simply didn't want us to forever lag behind the galaxy's power-broker species. Objection. He didn't want humanity to "catch up", because it already did. He was irritated that humanity has to play by alien rules (including no-AI policy, for example). He was irritated that humanity was only "one of". He wanted unrestricted development, so no aliens would have a word on what humans are allowed or not to do. I tend to agree. Though it was rather short. Perhaps even shortest so far?
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 14, 2017 15:21:07 GMT
Human-centric is a much better description than human supremacist, a description with which I strongly disagree. Alec wanted humanity to be able to catch up with civilizations that are thousands of years ahead. He knew this would take a very long time, if it even could be done. He wanted SAM to even the playing field. He had no interest in putting humanity on top. He simply didn't want us to forever lag behind the galaxy's power-broker species. Objection. He didn't want humanity to "catch up", because it already did. He was irritated that humanity has to play by alien rules (including no-AI policy, for example). He was irritated that humanity was only "one of". He wanted unrestricted development, so no aliens would have a word on what humans are allowed or not to do. I tend to agree. Though it was rather short. Perhaps even shortest so far?
Playing "catch-up" and "leveling the playing field" are his words, not mine. He talks about this at length in Chapter 2. (I believe there's more when he and Cora start discussing actuals regarding SAM, later in the novel. I'd have to check, though.) We were handed advanced technology, but we still exist amongst species who have been doing this for thousands of years. Their applications are more advanced. Their understanding more advanced. Want to learn the best way to do something? Just ask an asari/salarian. Humanity was thousands of years behind and had no impetus to innovate and blaze a new trail, since we could just get all the answers from our more advanced neighbors. Alec didn't want humanity on top. He wanted them as equals amongst the more established species. Facility with ME tech, and even a seat on the Council, didn't really mean we were equals. We'd always be less established and experienced than our neighbors. In 5000 years, maybe that difference would be negligible; but he wanted to close that gap rapidly. He viewed SAM as the means and the Ai as the impetus and opportunity. This conversation in Chapter 2 is Cora's first meeting with Alec. She wonders briefly if he is a humanity-first wacko, just as you're suggesting. She quickly realizes this is not the case. You could say that this is just Cora's opinion. I tend to think it's the author educating us through Cora, in this case helping us to understand Alec. He's no human supremacist, because they would require his agenda be human supremacy. He is human-centric for a certainty, as his goals are focused on advancing humanity's knowledge, and securing our place as equals amongst the asari, salarians and turians. I just played through the transfer of SAM and Pathfinder authority in MEA. It definitely felt slightly different, knowing the things I learned in Initiation. It's not a huge difference, but it did feel a bit different. It's a bummer that they went all out, hiring skilled writers for these novels, only for the IP to end up on ice. I'd enjoy more books of this quality.
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Post by sil on Dec 14, 2017 16:05:46 GMT
I got the impression of Alec Ryders human supremacist views during the final few chapters. There is internal dialogue about putting SAM's into every human and other nuggets that suggest he wants to surpass all the others. Frankly, he came off as somewhat dangerous.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 14, 2017 16:18:35 GMT
Objection. He didn't want humanity to "catch up", because it already did. He was irritated that humanity has to play by alien rules (including no-AI policy, for example). He was irritated that humanity was only "one of". He wanted unrestricted development, so no aliens would have a word on what humans are allowed or not to do. I tend to agree. Though it was rather short. Perhaps even shortest so far?
Playing "catch-up" and "leveling the playing field" are his words, not mine. He talks about this at length in Chapter 2. (I believe there's more when he and Cora start discussing actuals regarding SAM, later in the novel. I'd have to check, though.) We were handed advanced technology, but we still exist amongst species who have been doing this for thousands of years. Their applications are more advanced. Their understanding more advanced. Want to learn the best way to do something? Just ask an asari/salarian. Humanity was thousands of years behind and had no impetus to innovate and blaze a new trail, since we could just get all the answers from our more advanced neighbors. Alec didn't want humanity on top. He wanted them as equals amongst the more established species. Facility with ME tech, and even a seat on the Council, didn't really mean we were equals. We'd always be less established and experienced than our neighbors. In 5000 years, maybe that difference would be negligible; but he wanted to close that gap rapidly. He viewed SAM as the means and the Ai as the impetus and opportunity. Yes, exactly, the technology was handed to humanity. Humanity was welcomed in all spheres. The council seat was given after thirty years. You can't wish for more welcoming integration than this. Humanity was introducing new technologies to species which were space faring for millenia. 5000 years to catch up? Please. Any advantage older council species had is melting like ice in Sahara. Humans are already treated as equals, more so than even elcors, hanars and volus(es?). Alec wanted aliens as 'neighbors' (also his words). Neighbors don't petition anyone for right to colonize. Neighbors don't forbid each other to build dreadnoughts or AIs. Neighbors don't have to share. That's what he could get only in Andromeda. It's not like they gave ME to Montreal so they could screw up and put ME on ice. Besides comission costs are drop in the corporate ocean, if they decided to waste spend money on Tapestry or that Blastohs commercial for iced franchise, they might as well announce another book or a comic.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 14, 2017 16:45:55 GMT
Does the book say how long Cora trained under Alec before leaving for Andromeda?
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 14, 2017 17:12:40 GMT
Does the book say how long Cora trained under Alec before leaving for Andromeda? If the wiki weren't so bare bones, or if I could get the MEA website to work well on my device, I could give you an exact number. There are dated news blurbs every several chapters. The last is dated February 15, 2185 and discusses the insistent claims of some to have seen Commander Shepard in Omega. Cora fully accepts the Ai job, and Alec fully accepts her, around this date. I can't state with certainty the departure date of Ark Hyperion, but I have July 2185 burning in my mind. If that's correct, they worked very closely together for 5 months. This is after the convincing debut assignment that makes up Initiation's plot. Cora came highly recommended, very experienced, proved herself on the job and had 5 additional months of close partnership with Alec. I wish we had the same type of background on the others. In-game, Liam states he's never "officially" met our Ryder before the shuttle ride to Habitat 7. That's so stupid it hurts my brain. At the very least, the entire team combat/field team should've trained together for months before deployment. These in-game introductions could've been written in a way that introduced the player without introducing Ryder for the first time. Sigh. Those introductions always poop on my immersion.
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