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Post by Tilarta on Dec 18, 2017 19:51:42 GMT
Given that the crews of the Arks and the Nexus were hibernating during the journey, I always assumed that was a risky move, because they could be attacked at any time and considering how long it took the crews to revive, that means it could cause an unreasonable delay before defences could be established. The Salarians and Asari learned that the hard way when they encountered the Kett.
But with their 1000+ lifespan, it would have been practical to give each vessel Krogan and Asari guard crews, because they could remain awake for the duration of the journey and thus, operate the defence systems if they were attacked.
My theory is that each vessel would have 6 details of each species, 12 in total. And every 100 years, a new detail would be revived to take the place of the detail going back into cryogenic suspension. Since 100 years is more like 10 years to these species, it would be more like a long service posting. The final detail would be the ones who would actually be awake during the arrival in Andromeda. Most likely they would revive the previous 5 details ahead of the other occupants to prep for the awakening/establishment process. Along with the ship's medical crew as well.
It was stated that balancing the many needs of a multispecies crew was complicated, but if they'd had dedicated areas for the security details, maybe that would have made the problem less significant. And given that Lexi was present on a non-Asari Ark suggests their requirements are easier to mesh then other species.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 18, 2017 20:26:36 GMT
I disagree that having krogan and asari guard crews would have been practical. Instead, the practical move would have been to have mech security details since mechs don't need the things organics do to survive so the cost in resources would be drastically smaller and still have all the benefits.
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bshep
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Post by bshep on Dec 18, 2017 20:26:52 GMT
That would be another strain in the ships resources since those crews would need extra food, water, air and also the energy necessary to create or recycle said resources.
Don't know if you have read Mass Effect Nexus Uprising but in the book they were suffering with resource problems because of damage to the hydroponics labs which were supposed to creat both food and air and they had to depend for a while in the small ammount they brought from the Milky Way.
Also just because they are long lived doesn't mean spending a century in a closed environment wouldn't take a toll into their physical and mental health.
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Post by Tilarta on Dec 18, 2017 21:31:05 GMT
I'm not sure the Initiative was in favor of mechanical based involvement, given it was incredibly hard to get SAM units approved for inclusion in the mission.
None of the damage caused happened until collision with the Scourge upon arrival in Andromeda. I assume all the facilities were fairly intact up until that moment. Which should have been another reason to maintain an active crew or at least, revive one before entering the galaxy. So many problems would have been avoided if there was a conscious pilot looking out at the path ahead and thinking "weird energy tendrils ahead, let's come to a full stop before we run into whatever that is".
I assume on ships built to house 1000s of people, maintaining a limited crew of 12 would have been quite feasible to support. Given that there is at least one Krogan who considered spending 600 years fully awake, I'm assuming finding other individuals with the psychological fortitude to endure a century of isolation would be possible and much easier. Also, it's not like they wouldn't exactly have nothing to do, they could spend years taking readings, scanning, doing research or whatever it is that might have been observed during an intergalactic trip.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 18, 2017 21:39:08 GMT
I'm not sure the Initiative was in favor of mechanical based involvement, given it was incredibly hard to get SAM units approved for inclusion in the mission. None of the damage caused happened until collision with the Scourge upon arrival in Andromeda. I assume all the facilities were fairly intact up until that moment. Which should have been another reason to maintain an active crew or at least, revive one before entering the galaxy. So many problems would have been avoided if there was a conscious pilot looking out at the path ahead and thinking "weird energy tendrils ahead, let's come to a full stop before we run into whatever that is". I assume on ships built to house 1000s of people, maintaining a limited crew of 12 would have been quite feasible to support. Given that there is at least one Krogan who considered spending 600 years fully awake, I'm assuming finding other individuals with the psychological fortitude to endure a century of isolation would be possible and much easier. Also, it's not like they wouldn't exactly have nothing to do, they could spend years taking readings, scanning, doing research or whatever it is that might have been observed during an intergalactic trip. The Andromeda Initiative only had issues with the SAMs because they were AI. Using things like VIs would be accepted without question since there is no laws against it. Sorry, but none of the reasons you presented are good, either for the Initiative or those chosen to be those who would stay awake. There are way too many issues with having a crew awake during the trip.
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Post by bshep on Dec 18, 2017 23:21:25 GMT
I'm not sure the Initiative was in favor of mechanical based involvement, given it was incredibly hard to get SAM units approved for inclusion in the mission. None of the damage caused happened until collision with the Scourge upon arrival in Andromeda. I assume all the facilities were fairly intact up until that moment. Which should have been another reason to maintain an active crew or at least, revive one before entering the galaxy. So many problems would have been avoided if there was a conscious pilot looking out at the path ahead and thinking "weird energy tendrils ahead, let's come to a full stop before we run into whatever that is". I assume on ships built to house 1000s of people, maintaining a limited crew of 12 would have been quite feasible to support. Given that there is at least one Krogan who considered spending 600 years fully awake, I'm assuming finding other individuals with the psychological fortitude to endure a century of isolation would be possible and much easier. Also, it's not like they wouldn't exactly have nothing to do, they could spend years taking readings, scanning, doing research or whatever it is that might have been observed during an intergalactic trip. The Nexus wasn't designed to house too many people awake for a long time, this is mentioned in ME:Nexus Uprising. The ship was supposed to be some sort of transity station to coordenate the colonization effort. In this book they need to start sending ships to scout close star systems because with the hydroponics down they couldn't feed or supply air to all the awakened crews for long and by the time the Hyperion finally dock 14 months later the situation was so bad they were shutting down whole sections to reduce energy consumption. It would have made no sense to put a extra strain on their resources which could end up with pods being shut down to conserve energy in case of a emergency. The safest path was to keep everyone inside the pods. Besides a pilot couldn't do much with a ship flying in FTL besides plot the course (any VI should be able to handle that) and even in subluminal speed there was also nothing (s)he could do to avoid the scourge because initially their sensors were blind to it.
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Post by Tilarta on Dec 19, 2017 3:56:45 GMT
Under the right circumstances, a VI can become an AI. That is how EDI's life began, she was a tactical training VI that suddenly became sentient. And there is also the market trend predictive VI that also gained self-awareness.
There's also a small group of radicals that start destroying the computers on the Nexus which have quantum processors because those components could be used to create a AI.
So maybe they just chose not to take the risk of having VI mechs active while the crew was dormant.
I find it hard to believe with all the power required to sustain the Nexus' Odyssey drive for 600 years, they couldn't divert a small portion of that to keep environmental systems operational in a limited area.
The Scourge might be sensor invisible initially, but it's still visible. Any pilot looking out at the external camera feeds or observers in the docking area should be able to see the anomalies directly via visual observation. And then decide that avoiding an unknown anomaly is an advisable course of action until it can be determined what is in the path of the vessel.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 19, 2017 4:35:24 GMT
The Scourge might be sensor invisible initially, but it's still visible. Any pilot looking out at the external camera feeds or observers in the docking area should be able to see the anomalies directly via visual observation. And then decide that avoiding an unknown anomaly is an advisable course of action until it can be determined what is in the path of the vessel. No, it really isn't. It's only visible when active and even then it is dark. When inactive, it is black. A person can't spot a black thing in the blackness of space. Especially if said person doesn't know they should be looking for it. Plus you have to be really close to see something in space, and in this case that means it is already too late. For example the Ark Hyperion crew were awake before running into the Scourge, and they still hit it.
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Post by bshep on Dec 19, 2017 15:18:20 GMT
You don't "fly" a spaceship from eye unless something has gone really wrong.
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Post by zan on Dec 21, 2017 0:50:52 GMT
So, spend tens to hundred(s) of years dealing with same extremely limited number of people as a "guard"? That would break most normal sentient beings. There is a reason why even a 6 month trip to Mars currently requires people being bottled up together on Earth to make sure they don't kill each other off. Over hundreds of years I suspect a number of these guards would go batshit insane and blow up the Ark, or at least end up presenting far bigger danger to it than automated systems do.
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Post by Tilarta on Dec 21, 2017 4:45:52 GMT
The Scourge is never inactive, it's a gravitational anomaly drawn to Remnant technology. From dialogue during the game, it also moves around a bit in space, probably due to solar winds or some other kind of displacement. And it looks highly visible to me: I don't think there's a pilot in existence who would fly a craft based solely on instrumentation. Anyone remember that story about a plane that tried to fly through a mountain on autopilot because it's GPS locator was defective? For a Mass Effect example, when the Normandy SR2 emerges from the Omega 4 relay on the Collectors' side, Joker's second action is to pull the Normandy directly upwards because he could see all the ship debris in the path of the vessel. If he'd been looking down at his instrument displays instead of at the windows, crucial reaction time would have been lost. Lisana T'lesso also references that flying through the Scourge is based on instinct, since the safe paths keep shifting around every supply run she makes. Each time she does so, she has to take a different route through the nearby Scourge anomalies. The journey to Andromeda is 600 years total. For context, by the time they reached their destination, Liara is 70 years old by Asari standards, Grunt would be 78 and Wrex would be 90 by Krogan standards. But my theory isn't that one shift would be active for the entire journey, it would be 6 shifts total (100 years each), with the final shift being the one to supervise the arrival in Andromeda. They would have to undergo intensive psych evaluations to make sure the invididuals chosen were mentally resilient enough to cope with the limited socialisation.
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Post by bshep on Dec 21, 2017 18:43:38 GMT
Again, the distances are colossal. In space you measure them in light-years, which is 9.500.000.000.000 KM. Even objects that are at shorter distances are measured in AU , which is still 150.000.000 KM.
So unless you are REALLY close to a few hundreds or thousands of KM you can't see anything from the naked eye and if the object is small or reflect little to no light the distance would be even smaller. For example Mars is big enough to be seen as a red dot in the night sky but you can't see neither Phobos or Deimos because they are too small.
Joker flew both Normandy from instruments, those windows in the SR2 "Cerberus version" were just there for pleasure view.
And same problems that were pointed out in previous posts: limited energy and resources. Why waste them when it is a easier and more safe solution to let the automatic systems(VI) handle the monitoring during the travel ? Not to talk about the strain in their mental and physical health. Who would volunteer to wither away for hundreds of years in a closed environment?
But for the sake of a exemple let's just imagine that they tried that on the Nexus:
So they spend more than 600 years spending energy and both reserves of air and food (which can't be replenished since hydroponics is still down to save energy until the arrival) to maintain a few dozen skeleton crew.
Then by the time they finally arrive at Heleus Cluster, the Nexus end up crashing against the scourge because the phenomenon is invisible to their sensors. Some of the Initiative leardship gets killed while the ship crew is awakened to deal with the emergency, and huge sections of the ship are destroyed or damaged like Hydroponics lab which should be up and running to supply the now active crew, so they will have to rely on what was brought with them at least until they can fix the problem with Hydroponics lab or until a habitable planet can be found. But to fix the damage or to scout for planets they need to awake even more people to do that.
Now can you see where this is going? Had they done that the Hyperion would have most likely found a dead space ship instead of a dying one which could still be saved.
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Post by bshep on Dec 21, 2017 18:49:11 GMT
So, spend tens to hundred(s) of years dealing with same extremely limited number of people as a "guard"? That would break most normal sentient beings. There is a reason why even a 6 month trip to Mars currently requires people being bottled up together on Earth to make sure they don't kill each other off. Over hundreds of years I suspect a number of these guards would go batshit insane and blow up the Ark, or at least end up presenting far bigger danger to it than automated systems do. Very true. This make me remember the premise for the movie Pandorum (2009) were some crew members go insane while inside a colonization ship light years away from Earth.
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Post by invisibleman on Jan 8, 2018 5:18:52 GMT
as far as security patrols & the like would go, i'm fairly sure the feeling within the initiative hierarchy would be... there's nothing in darkspace, so there likely won't be much of a potential threat to the arks till they arrive in andromeda.
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Post by sil on Jan 15, 2018 23:53:58 GMT
I'm not sure the Initiative was in favor of mechanical based involvement, given it was incredibly hard to get SAM units approved for inclusion in the mission. None of the damage caused happened until collision with the Scourge upon arrival in Andromeda. I assume all the facilities were fairly intact up until that moment. Which should have been another reason to maintain an active crew or at least, revive one before entering the galaxy. So many problems would have been avoided if there was a conscious pilot looking out at the path ahead and thinking "weird energy tendrils ahead, let's come to a full stop before we run into whatever that is". I assume on ships built to house 1000s of people, maintaining a limited crew of 12 would have been quite feasible to support. Given that there is at least one Krogan who considered spending 600 years fully awake, I'm assuming finding other individuals with the psychological fortitude to endure a century of isolation would be possible and much easier. Also, it's not like they wouldn't exactly have nothing to do, they could spend years taking readings, scanning, doing research or whatever it is that might have been observed during an intergalactic trip. Ian Frazer confirmed that the Andromeda Initiative brought LOKI mechs with them.
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