Tilarta
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Tilarta
PSN: Tilarta
Posts: 51 Likes: 25
inherit
9318
0
Dec 21, 2017 21:05:47 GMT
25
Tilarta
51
September 2017
tilarta
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Tilarta
Tilarta
|
Post by Tilarta on Dec 18, 2017 21:38:20 GMT
I was wondering, when exactly did the SAM units come online?
I'm assuming they were activated prior to the journey, in order to get the Pathfinders and their replacements used to having the connection active. But it wouldn't have been practical to keep them active during the journey, because there would be no conscious Pathfinder to provide sensory input.
Also, given that AIs process data much faster then organics, from a SAM's perspective, it would be comparable to millions of years passing instead of just 600. At the end of that time, you'd have one very bored and possibly non-functional AI.
So I assume the SAM nodes were also put in hibernation, to prevent adverse psychological effects of the isolation and time degrading their mental state.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Dec 19, 2017 7:12:11 GMT
The SAMs were definitely active before launch. We see this in our SAM’s development across in-game scenes. No info is provided as to their status during the voyage. Based upon your interest in this and the vessels in general, I’d recommend reading the novels Initiation and Nexus Uprising. They provide some useful data.
|
|
inherit
131
0
Dec 17, 2018 14:01:15 GMT
1,803
Ahriman
1,503
August 2016
ahriman
|
Post by Ahriman on Dec 19, 2017 8:03:55 GMT
I was wondering, when exactly did the SAM units come online? I'm assuming they were activated prior to the journey, in order to get the Pathfinders and their replacements used to having the connection active. But it wouldn't have been practical to keep them active during the journey, because there would be no conscious Pathfinder to provide sensory input. Also, given that AIs process data much faster then organics, from a SAM's perspective, it would be comparable to millions of years passing instead of just 600. At the end of that time, you'd have one very bored and possibly non-functional AI. So I assume the SAM nodes were also put in hibernation, to prevent adverse psychological effects of the isolation and time degrading their mental state. Sams without organic puppets are still functional to a degree. Just remember turian pathfinder mission, turian Sam was navigating Ark on it's own. Which also answers your second question - they control the ship while everyone is asleep. Also AIs don't rely on chemical processes to stimulate acquiring new experience, so they can't get bored.
|
|
Tilarta
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Tilarta
PSN: Tilarta
Posts: 51 Likes: 25
inherit
9318
0
Dec 21, 2017 21:05:47 GMT
25
Tilarta
51
September 2017
tilarta
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Tilarta
Tilarta
|
Post by Tilarta on Dec 21, 2017 5:02:06 GMT
As I understand it, a SAM isn't like a typical AI, they require sensory input from an organic to function, possibly even to the extent of requiring social interaction. SAM talks to other crewmembers and the Angaran AI as much as he does Pathfinders.
Hyperion SAM compares not having a Pathfinder to be akin to organic death, they can function, but they'll be considered insane. Pachero SAM was classified as mentally traumatised due to the Pathfinder connection being incorrectly severed. HSAM had to do the AI equivalent of mental blocking to get PSAM to become coherent until a new Pathfinder connection could be established.
I think Natanus SAM was in standby mode, the Pathfinder transfer process had been initiated, but not completed. So that might account for the differences between NSAM and PSAM.
I don't know if SAM units were intended to interact directly with ship's systems, the odds are high they weren't designed to function like EDI. There's a conversation with HSAM and the Angaran AI on this subject and he doesn't know if he can exert external control directly. As far as I can tell, SAMs are limited to using comm channels and data transfer channels, that's all they can do without a Pathfinder in the room.
For context, even EDI wasn't originally intended to control the Normandy all by herself, it's an emergency protocol only. EDI states that taking full control of the Normandy inhibits her ability to perform her designated role, so she would rather not do it at all and delegate the task to the organic crew.
I am curious, given their history with AI, did the Quarian Ark have a SAM unit or not? I doubt they'd have agreed to install one because of their mistrust of AI. Finding a Quarian volunteer who would agree to be mentally connected to an AI would be even more difficult. Assuming that their Pathfinder is a Quarian, it is mentioned that the Quarian Ark was slower to launch because they took on a multi-species crew and the delay was caused by having to balance the cryogenic/environmental needs of many species.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 21, 2017 5:53:15 GMT
I am curious, given their history with AI, did the Quarian Ark have a SAM unit or not? I doubt they'd have agreed to install one because of their mistrust of AI. Finding a Quarian volunteer who would agree to be mentally connected to an AI would be even more difficult. Assuming that their Pathfinder is a Quarian, it is mentioned that the Quarian Ark was slower to launch because they took on a multi-species crew and the delay was caused by having to balance the cryogenic/environmental needs of many species. Yes, all Arks come equipped with a SAM. A quarian being okay with being connected to a SAM wouldn't be that strange. Remember, a decent percentage of the quarians in the Migrant Fleet don't hate AI, seeing the Geth as the victims in the Morning War. And these are quarians who have left the Migrant Fleet so they may be even more accepting of AI. The Pathfinder for their Ark is a Quarian. That much is confirmed.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Dec 21, 2017 8:02:05 GMT
Tilarta, many of your SAM questions are addressed in MEA: Initiation. If you're not a novel-reader, someone may update the wiki, at some point. SAM isn't nearly as limited as I'm getting the impression that you believe. It's an incredibly potent AI which happens to be designed for a human/AI synthesis. (Ugh, but it's the right word.) SAM's nature is a feature, not so much a limitation.
|
|
inherit
131
0
Dec 17, 2018 14:01:15 GMT
1,803
Ahriman
1,503
August 2016
ahriman
|
Post by Ahriman on Dec 21, 2017 10:37:51 GMT
As I understand it, a SAM isn't like a typical AI, they require sensory input from an organic to function, possibly even to the extent of requiring social interaction. SAM talks to other crewmembers and the Angaran AI as much as he does Pathfinders. Hyperion SAM compares not having a Pathfinder to be akin to organic death, they can function, but they'll be considered insane. Pachero SAM was classified as mentally traumatised due to the Pathfinder connection being incorrectly severed. HSAM had to do the AI equivalent of mental blocking to get PSAM to become coherent until a new Pathfinder connection could be established. I think Natanus SAM was in standby mode, the Pathfinder transfer process had been initiated, but not completed. So that might account for the differences between NSAM and PSAM. I don't know if SAM units were intended to interact directly with ship's systems, the odds are high they weren't designed to function like EDI. There's a conversation with HSAM and the Angaran AI on this subject and he doesn't know if he can exert external control directly. As far as I can tell, SAMs are limited to using comm channels and data transfer channels, that's all they can do without a Pathfinder in the room. For context, even EDI wasn't originally intended to control the Normandy all by herself, it's an emergency protocol only. EDI states that taking full control of the Normandy inhibits her ability to perform her designated role, so she would rather not do it at all and delegate the task to the organic crew. I can't exactly disagree, since I believe that writers themselves didn't think it through completely, but I don't see much of indication for what you are saying. It wasn't said that they require organic sensory input to function, Sam could use any recording devices on his own just fine. My headcanon is that Sams need organics to develop themselves - reasoning, decision making, priorities - all that jazz programs are weak at. As you said yourself turian Sam was damaged by failed transfer, so it's functionality would be even worse than without puppet. If it could eject cryopods in "standby mod", then let's call it that, but I wouldn't call it non-functional. As far as I remember Sam was recalibrating Hyperion's sensors after being hit by the Scourge, so it does have access to ship systems. It might be manually limited for safety reasons, but controlling a ship wouldn't be a problem for any proper AI.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Dec 21, 2017 12:36:12 GMT
It’s also important not to conflate our SAM with the other SAMs. Our SAM is far more advanced. Again, the novel addresses this in more detail. SAM is a major character in the novel.
|
|
Tilarta
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Tilarta
PSN: Tilarta
Posts: 51 Likes: 25
inherit
9318
0
Dec 21, 2017 21:05:47 GMT
25
Tilarta
51
September 2017
tilarta
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Tilarta
Tilarta
|
Post by Tilarta on Dec 21, 2017 14:09:36 GMT
Clarification: Natanus SAM is the Turian AI, Pachero SAM is the Salarian AI. When NSAM is encountered, this one seems fairly stable as the transfer process had been initiated, but not completed until the replacement Pathfinder was actually in the room. The only dialogue I remember is that the replacement Turian Pathfinder was getting a series of spatial co-ordinates via their SAM implant, but not direct communication. PSAM on the other hand, was babbling gibberish until HSAM blocked out the "trauma" of having a connection improperly severed. In my version, the replacement Salarian Pathfinder was also lost, so the position was transferred to the third candidate, the captain of Ark Pachero.
It makes sense that HSAM is the most advanced one, since he started first, being active for several years and connected to two individuals prior to being installed on Ark Hyperion. I assume they just copied his design and replicated it for each successive Ark that needed a SAM node.
From the dialogue when HSAM is given a math problem to solve, it appears the data has to be transferred into his matrix directly and the solution downloaded again via omnitool data drives. I'm assuming this is required because the ones with the problem didn't have direct access to his data transfer channels. Probably a good thing, since the math problem was loaded with a SAMkiller virus. So I assumed all modifications he performs are done similarly, he's sent the problem as a data packet, rewrites the code and sends it back to be uploaded to the system he was modifying.
Also, a key difference is that EDI is actually in the Normandy and a portion of her mind is present in every computer storage node on the Normandy SR2, giving her direct access/control when necessary. SAM by comparison is physically located in the Arks, so perhaps that distance is too far to have realtime contact with the Tempest's computer systems. Since the SAM nodes operate by quantum entanglement and this communication technology isn't exactly easy to fabricate, it would stand to reason that there is a limited number of quantum connections the SAM nodes can have. Short version, a quantum entanglement communicator requires the isolation of two synchronised particles, which are then separated and placed at either end of the comm channel. For each new channel that is required, a new pair has to be created. I assume the QECs are installed in the Pathfinder implants, thus limiting SAM to conventional transmission channels when contacting non-Pathfinders or accessing ship control systems.
I do read most of the novels, but I chose not to read Mass Effect: Initiation because it appears to be about Cora's personal story and she's my least favourite squadmate. Given that I didn't enjoy the one mission where I was required to bring her along manditorily, I thought it would best to avoid a novel where she is playing the central lead role.
|
|
link2twenty
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Link2Twenty
XBL Gamertag: carefreetuna
PSN: carefreetuna
Posts: 461 Likes: 898
inherit
2682
0
Oct 30, 2024 19:41:59 GMT
898
link2twenty
461
January 2017
link2twenty
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Link2Twenty
carefreetuna
carefreetuna
|
Post by link2twenty on Dec 21, 2017 15:12:12 GMT
Tilarta she's a lot better in the book.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Dec 21, 2017 18:07:29 GMT
Tilarta, I believe you're misremembering the game. It was the turian SAM aboard Ark Natanus that was "babbling", though that's not the right word. It was more like stuttering, because it sustained trauma during the failed transfer to Avitus. It was not speaking gibberish or nonsense. It was simply struggling to articulate. It was clear-thinking enough to bring Avitus to it. I've completed the game 10 times (100% completion) and have never interacted with the salarians' SAM. When and where does this happen? Paarchero's SAM had been dismantled by Zevin Raeka in order to protect herself and it from the kett. When did you speak with it and hear it "babbling"? You're confusing the scene aboard Natanus with Paarchero. Also, you're wrong in believing that our SAM's code was copied and pasted to the other arks. Those SAMs were based off of early versions of SAM's code, but not his advanced form. SAM was well aware of the other SAMs, as well as his own superiority, in 2184. Those SAMs were already completed by then, whereas Alec continued refining our SAM in secret long after. I'd recommend replaying the game, watching some YouTube videos and/or hitting the wiki. You seem to have some intricate suppositions concerning SAM, but they don't really match the lore we have.
|
|
bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
Prime Likes: 376
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 7,936
inherit
269
0
7,936
bshep
We destroy them or they destroy us.
4,444
August 2016
bshep
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
MasterDassJennir
1876
376
|
Post by bshep on Dec 21, 2017 23:25:59 GMT
Yes, turian SAM was damaged because the previous pathfinder died before the transfer could be finished. If i remember right they had to later make a "system restore" to fix him. This makes me wonder if SAM would also died (at least his current personality) if he wasn't able to transfer when ALec was dying.
Also indeed we never talk with salarian SAM ingame because he was already deactivated to avoid the falling in the hands of the kett.
|
|
ArabianIGoggles
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: d8lock
Posts: 310 Likes: 332
inherit
595
0
332
ArabianIGoggles
310
August 2016
arabianigoggles
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
d8lock
|
Post by ArabianIGoggles on Jan 4, 2018 15:23:12 GMT
As I understand it, a SAM isn't like a typical AI, they require sensory input from an organic to function, possibly even to the extent of requiring social interaction. SAM talks to other crewmembers and the Angaran AI as much as he does Pathfinders. Hyperion SAM compares not having a Pathfinder to be akin to organic death, they can function, but they'll be considered insane. Pachero SAM was classified as mentally traumatised due to the Pathfinder connection being incorrectly severed. HSAM had to do the AI equivalent of mental blocking to get PSAM to become coherent until a new Pathfinder connection could be established. I think Natanus SAM was in standby mode, the Pathfinder transfer process had been initiated, but not completed. So that might account for the differences between NSAM and PSAM. I don't know if SAM units were intended to interact directly with ship's systems, the odds are high they weren't designed to function like EDI. There's a conversation with HSAM and the Angaran AI on this subject and he doesn't know if he can exert external control directly. As far as I can tell, SAMs are limited to using comm channels and data transfer channels, that's all they can do without a Pathfinder in the room. For context, even EDI wasn't originally intended to control the Normandy all by herself, it's an emergency protocol only. EDI states that taking full control of the Normandy inhibits her ability to perform her designated role, so she would rather not do it at all and delegate the task to the organic crew. I am curious, given their history with AI, did the Quarian Ark have a SAM unit or not? I doubt they'd have agreed to install one because of their mistrust of AI. Finding a Quarian volunteer who would agree to be mentally connected to an AI would be even more difficult. Assuming that their Pathfinder is a Quarian, it is mentioned that the Quarian Ark was slower to launch because they took on a multi-species crew and the delay was caused by having to balance the cryogenic/environmental needs of many species. I don't remember EDI saying she was at any disadvantage controlling the normandy. Only that it was better to have Joker and her both flying the ship, as he is an organic that is unpredictable, or something along those lines.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,974 Likes: 21,012
inherit
2309
0
Nov 25, 2024 17:57:09 GMT
21,012
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,974
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 5, 2018 13:35:37 GMT
It’s also important not to conflate our SAM with the other SAMs. Our SAM is far more advanced. Again, the novel addresses this in more detail. SAM is a major character in the novel. Yeah our Sam even explains to Ryder that he's more advanced to given he also can enhance Ryder's powers and abilties that's why you can have so many profiles and powers active at once in the case of the story.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Jan 5, 2018 14:02:37 GMT
It’s also important not to conflate our SAM with the other SAMs. Our SAM is far more advanced. Again, the novel addresses this in more detail. SAM is a major character in the novel. Yeah our Sam even explains to Ryder that he's more advanced to given he also can enhance Ryder's powers and abilties that's why you can have so many profiles and powers active at once in the case of the story. The novel goes into even more details. SAM in ME Andromeda is more restricted than SAM in the novel due to safety reasons. Still, as you say, it assumes a dangerous level of integration with Ryder in order to augment his or her capabilities. Our SAM is what Alex had in mind from the start. The others are a measured concession to the Ai. Alec rightly feared that the true version of SAM wouldn’t have been immediately accepted by the Ai leadership.
|
|
link2twenty
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Link2Twenty
XBL Gamertag: carefreetuna
PSN: carefreetuna
Posts: 461 Likes: 898
inherit
2682
0
Oct 30, 2024 19:41:59 GMT
898
link2twenty
461
January 2017
link2twenty
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Link2Twenty
carefreetuna
carefreetuna
|
Post by link2twenty on Jan 5, 2018 14:20:09 GMT
Yeah our Sam even explains to Ryder that he's more advanced to given he also can enhance Ryder's powers and abilties that's why you can have so many profiles and powers active at once in the case of the story. The novel goes into even more details. SAM in ME Andromeda is more restricted than SAM in the novel due to safety reasons. Still, as you say, it assumes a dangerous level of integration with Ryder in order to augment his or her capabilities. Our SAM is what Alex had in mind from the start. The others are a measured concession to the Ai. Alec rightly feared that the true version of SAM wouldn’t have been immediately accepted by the Ai leadership. Our SAM is at the same level as Alec's SAM in the novel, isn't it? It was the integration Alec had to backtrack on, though not for the twins.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,683
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Jan 5, 2018 14:25:47 GMT
The novel goes into even more details. SAM in ME Andromeda is more restricted than SAM in the novel due to safety reasons. Still, as you say, it assumes a dangerous level of integration with Ryder in order to augment his or her capabilities. Our SAM is what Alex had in mind from the start. The others are a measured concession to the Ai. Alec rightly feared that the true version of SAM wouldn’t have been immediately accepted by the Ai leadership. Our SAM is at the same level as Alec's SAM in the novel, isn't it? It was the integration Alec had to backtrack on, though not for the twins. I’d think SAM had developed even more since the time of the novel. The integration was definitely more restricted, though, due to multiple issues observed in the novels. Even the level of integration in the game isn’t as severe as that in the novel. Alec was like, “Nope. We can’t have that,” and programmed more restrictions. SAM explains the changes after the main events of the story.
|
|