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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Dec 28, 2017 20:26:25 GMT
The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't actually go to Minas Tirith; they made it to pelargir with the grey company (a group of dúnedain rangers) and scared away the corsairs of umbar who were setting out to fight against Gondor. After they had fulfilled the oath Aragorn released them and then used the corsairs' ships to reach the battle. From what I remember I don't actually believe the the dead men could kill anyone being ethereal, as I was under the impression their only use was to cause terror. Besides, Aragorn was not going to betray his word as giving your word or making an oath in Tolkien's works seems like a pretty big deal. I don't know how the movies could have changed things up without making it longer than it already was but this whole situations was probably one of my biggest peeves. When Gimli described what happened to Merry, he said the spirits drew weapons, but he wasn't sure if they could actually hurt the living with them. The terror was the only weapon they needed. In fact, it was TOO good. Their affect terrified both sides of the fight. But yeah, they'd have to explain that the army Aragorn brought to Minas Tirith was actually the forces of Pelegir and Dol Amroth that were under siege from Umbar. Don't know how you remember all these details. I feel like I can get rid of my Tolkien encyclopedia and just ask you all my questions.  The Dead Men of Dunharrow didn't actually go to Minas Tirith; they made it to pelargir with the grey company (a group of dúnedain rangers) and scared away the corsairs of umbar who were setting out to fight against Gondor. After they had fulfilled the oath Aragorn released them and then used the corsairs' ships to reach the battle. From what I remember I don't actually believe the the dead men could kill anyone being ethereal, as I was under the impression their only use was to cause terror. Besides, Aragorn was not going to betray his word as giving your word or making an oath in Tolkien's works seems like a pretty big deal. I don't know how the movies could have changed things up without making it longer than it already was but this whole situations was probably one of my biggest peeves. Again, going only by the movies here. In the movie, the ghosts zerg rush the attacking Mordor forces and are basically a giant green wave sweeping over everything and picking it clean. And I don't buy the "betray his word" thing. The ghosts swore to defend Gondor in time of need (or something of the sort), and the time of need had definitely not passed. One battle did not win the war. Aragorn should've released them only after Sauron was defeated. Even if he wouldn't use them on Mordor itself (because I'm sure someone will pull out some obscure lore about how Sauron could've mind controlled them if they got too close) leaving them behind to defend Minas Tirith pretty much guarantees its safety until the Ring is destroyed or Sauron reclaims it, after which it no longer matters either way. If only going by the movies then I don't have much defense for this part, as I felt the way it was handled cheapened everyone's sacrifice. With the books I could say that Aragorn had plenty of men at his side to help defend Minas Tirith, that Aragorn simply ordered the men of dunharrow to do the exact same thing they had sworn to Isildur years before, which was to defend only a small part of Gondor, and lastly that there is a strong possibility they can't even kill anyone. The movie just gives an opportunity that is too great to pass up. Peter Jackson judged that a lot of these details would be too complex to add and this part in the movie suffers for it imo
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Dec 28, 2017 21:27:44 GMT
Again, going only by the movies here. In the movie, the ghosts zerg rush the attacking Mordor forces and are basically a giant green wave sweeping over everything and picking it clean. And I don't buy the "betray his word" thing. The ghosts swore to defend Gondor in time of need (or something of the sort), and the time of need had definitely not passed. One battle did not win the war. Aragorn should've released them only after Sauron was defeated. Even if he wouldn't use them on Mordor itself (because I'm sure someone will pull out some obscure lore about how Sauron could've mind controlled them if they got too close) leaving them behind to defend Minas Tirith pretty much guarantees its safety until the Ring is destroyed or Sauron reclaims it, after which it no longer matters either way. "an hour of need" to be precise, i.e. siege of MT. And breaking words and bending rules to gain something is highly un-tolkienesque. but since you're talking pragmatic, here's my viewpoint: 1. in the books, wraiths can only spook people. They probably couldn't physically harm a living being even if they wanted to. So scare tactic wouldn't work for long and definitely wouldn't work on the Nazgul or Sauron who is well-known necromancer. 2. in the movies, the Dead would probably just scare the shit out of Aragorn's army on the way to Mordor or in Gondor. I remind u, the only people that arrived to MT along with the Dead were Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas--real badasses with balls bigger than Wrex's. No one else was on those ships, no one else had time to get comfy around those creatures. i personally shit my pants every time i see a ghost IRL.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 28, 2017 22:07:39 GMT
"an hour of need" to be precise, i.e. siege of MT. And breaking words and bending rules to gain something is highly un-tolkienesque. 2. in the movies, the Dead would probably just scare the shit out of Aragorn's army on the way to Mordor or in Gondor. I remind u, the only people that arrived to MT along with the Dead were Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas--real badasses with balls bigger than Wrex's. No one else was on those ships, no one else had time to get comfy around those creatures. i personally shit my pants every time i see a ghost IRL. There is no breaking words or even bending. Defending Gondor until the threat of Sauron is gone is well within the current pact. As for "scaring" Aragorn's army you fail to see that he wouldn't need an army (of the living). If anyone can take the day off it's Gondor's army. Or, again, if you're going to take the living to Mordor, leave the dead to guard your city. Either way, make use of the tireless invincible green death machine until the little Hobbit throws the Ring down the volcano.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Dec 29, 2017 14:25:35 GMT
"an hour of need" to be precise, i.e. siege of MT. And breaking words and bending rules to gain something is highly un-tolkienesque. 2. in the movies, the Dead would probably just scare the shit out of Aragorn's army on the way to Mordor or in Gondor. I remind u, the only people that arrived to MT along with the Dead were Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas--real badasses with balls bigger than Wrex's. No one else was on those ships, no one else had time to get comfy around those creatures. i personally shit my pants every time i see a ghost IRL. There is no breaking words or even bending. Defending Gondor until the threat of Sauron is gone is well within the current pact. As for "scaring" Aragorn's army you fail to see that he wouldn't need an army (of the living). If anyone can take the day off it's Gondor's army. Or, again, if you're going to take the living to Mordor, leave the dead to guard your city. Either way, make use of the tireless invincible green death machine until the little Hobbit throws the Ring down the volcano. ghosts does not simply walk into mordor, it's where master necromancer lives. ghosts cant stay in gondor either, it's where innocent peeps live. ps. besides, defending minas tirith and conquering mordor for a fleshbag are two different things.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 9, 2018 19:33:51 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Jan 9, 2018 20:11:42 GMT
You mean Amon Amarth, the Sindarin name which translates to "Mountain of Fate"(or "Doom")? or it's simplified name, Orodruin, the Sindarin term meaning "Fire Mountain"?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 9, 2018 21:17:22 GMT
You mean Amon Amarth, the Sindarin name which translates to "Mountain of Fate"(or "Doom")? No kidding. So that's what the band's named after...
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 10, 2018 1:41:56 GMT
There is no breaking words or even bending. Defending Gondor until the threat of Sauron is gone is well within the current pact. As for "scaring" Aragorn's army you fail to see that he wouldn't need an army (of the living). If anyone can take the day off it's Gondor's army. Or, again, if you're going to take the living to Mordor, leave the dead to guard your city. Either way, make use of the tireless invincible green death machine until the little Hobbit throws the Ring down the volcano. ghosts does not simply walk into mordor, it's where master necromancer lives. 
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Post by Iakus on Jan 14, 2018 20:20:16 GMT
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Jan 15, 2018 6:13:22 GMT
no what Legolas actually does is screaming internally. 
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Post by ergates on Jan 16, 2018 13:58:59 GMT
The thing that pissed me off most of all in regard to the movies was the Battle of Helm's Deep in the Tow Towers in which the Galadhrim (elves of Lórien) actually take part in the battle! I was really annoyed at this utter nonsense, to the extent that it basically ruined the entire movie for me. Even the character assassinations of Faramir and Denethor paled in comparison. Elves coming to fight in Helm's Deep made a mockery of everything envisioned by Tolkien.
As for The Hobbit movies I've only seen the first one - I loathed it, and refused to watch the others.
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Post by BooFish on Jan 16, 2018 18:16:04 GMT
Was Turin Turambar the biggest loser in all of middle earth?
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Post by Iakus on Jan 16, 2018 22:58:13 GMT
Was Turin Turambar the biggest loser in all of middle earth? He either genuinely was cursed, Or the most unfortunate loser to walk Middle Earth.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Jan 17, 2018 3:33:10 GMT
The thing that pissed me off most of all in regard to the movies was the Battle of Helm's Deep in the Tow Towers in which the Galadhrim (elves of Lórien) actually take part in the battle! I was really annoyed at this utter nonsense, to the extent that it basically ruined the entire movie for me. Even the character assassinations of Faramir and Denethor paled in comparison. Elves coming to fight in Helm's Deep made a mockery of everything envisioned by Tolkien. how is this a mockery? Elves DID fight in that war, just not in Helm's Deep (Lorien army went to Dol Guldur and fucked it up). It wouldnt be wise for the film's pace to add the siege of Dol Guldur, so elves participating in the battle of HD was a nice touch reminding us that elves aint no pussies hiding behind humans' backs.
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Post by BooFish on Jan 17, 2018 15:51:26 GMT
Was Turin Turambar the biggest loser in all of middle earth? He either genuinely was cursed, Or the most unfortunate loser to walk Middle Earth. Cause sister to be cursed and lose memory, steal sister away from best buddy because he doesn't know it is his sister, grand love affair with sister, botches killing baddy dragon who lifts curse so sister now knows she is a sister, kills buddy over the love affair, sister kills self when she realizes she has be the lover of her brother, he kills himself because of this. Great warrior, sucked at the rest of life.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 17, 2018 16:05:24 GMT
He either genuinely was cursed, Or the most unfortunate loser to walk Middle Earth. Cause sister to be cursed and lose memory, steal sister away from best buddy because he doesn't know it is his sister, grand love affair with sister, botches killing baddy dragon who lifts curse so sister now knows she is a sister, kills buddy over the love affair, sister kills self when she realizes she has be the lover of her brother, he kills himself because of this. Great warrior, sucked at the rest of life. Don't forget "knocked up sister not knowing she was his sister", "leadership led to the sacking of Nargothrond" and "his death caused his father to accidentally reveal the location of Gondolin to Morgoth" "But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death." Morgoth, cursing the children of Hurin But on the plus side, Turin is said to eventually slay Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath when Morgoth returns for one last showdown against the Valar.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 17, 2018 19:58:47 GMT
But yeah, Smaug. Smaug was magnificent. Smaug was threatening. Smaug was there. Besides the excellent design and performance there are two things that go into my appreciation of Smaug. One the idea of dragons as super-intelligent sentient beings who can fuck with you, in addition to all the other ways they're better than you (and can kill you). I've never been much for dragons in the past, and while I did encounter intelligent dragons in Skyrim, I was still mostly meh on them. Giant flying lizards, woohoo. But Smaug made me a believer, and I want more. The second thing is, he is a magical being that actually does something magical. I once read that Tolkien hated Shakespeare because when the latter wrote "the trees moved" in Macbeth (I believe) but then revealed them to be dudes holding logs and branches, Tolkien went "that's bullshit, trees should move if it's supernatural". And thus we got Ents. I have a similar misgiving about the Tolkienverse- If there's magic shit like wizards and elves and dragons and demons then I want to see some awesome magical shit go down! Yes, yes, the wizards are playing by teh rules and magic is dying, yadda yadda, I know the explanation. Doesn't mean I still don't want to see magical shit hit the fan. So among the other great things he is, Smaug is a (regrettably) rare case where that does happen.  I preferred the 1977 version of Smaug to be honest:
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 17, 2018 20:18:51 GMT
I preferred the 1977 version of Smaug to be honest: Ugh, why? That looks and sounds terrible. Not even as a comparison, that just looks bad, and the voice sounds like some guy from Buffalo. Tony Jay was around in the 70s, they should've gotten him.
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Post by mattig89ch on Jan 17, 2018 20:41:22 GMT
I do believe this is relevant: Its a good song, and I do belive Mr. Tolkein won that fight. I think he won it in the second verse tbh, everything else was just piling on top of his victory. Personally, I only read the lord of the rings novels in highschool. There was an English class that said we had to read a novel a semester, and spent class time reading. So I picked a novel with the trilogy, and finished it in the 6 months of the class. And I rather enjoyed it. That said, I haven't read anything else in this universe (outside of the hobbit ofc). But I have been told some things about the universe from others who have read the other books.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 18, 2018 2:19:39 GMT
I preferred the 1977 version of Smaug to be honest: Ugh, why? That looks and sounds terrible. Not even as a comparison, that just looks bad, and the voice sounds like some guy from Buffalo. Tony Jay was around in the 70s, they should've gotten him. Eh, I think it's better than Peter Jackson's version. 1977 Smaug doesn't waste time with pleasantries, he is quick to show just how powerful he is when he is provoked. Turn of the century Smaug is very skinny in comparison, plus he's spending the majority of his conversation with Bilbo bobbing his head around like a snake to come across as intimidating. Of course, that could be because preadolescent me was terrified of this cartoon growing up; him and G'Mork in The Never Ending Story; but I don't know.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 18, 2018 13:52:47 GMT
Eh, I think it's better than Peter Jackson's version. 1977 Smaug doesn't waste time with pleasantries, he is quick to show just how powerful he is when he is provoked. Turn of the century Smaug is very skinny in comparison, plus he's spending the majority of his conversation with Bilbo bobbing his head around like a snake to come across as intimidating. Of course, that could be because preadolescent me was terrified of this cartoon growing up; him and G'Mork in The Never Ending Story; but I don't know. Eh, to each his own, though I wouldn't say Jackson's Smaug wastes time on pleasantries. And the design was amazing, as was of course the performance. I much prefer this type of dragon over the "classical" quadruped. I think it both makes more sense and feels more alien at the same time. And going back to the performance, obviously I'm judging as an adult, but I felt the menace in the live-action movie. The cartoon by comparison feels quaint and mundane, the voice too ordinary. And too bright to be really terrifying. Like I said, I was mostly indifferent to dragons before Smaug. This was something special.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 18, 2018 15:17:40 GMT
Which Trilogy you guys prefer more? Trying to watch them now back and forth with having finished the first two Hobbit movies and almost done with The Two Towers. My conclusion so far? Much prefer the acting performances/actors in the Hobbit movies over the ultra cringe counterparts in TLotR. The visuals/sets/camera technology make the Hobbit movies look better too.
Only thing that seems to hold The Hobbit back is the horrible filler material. And this is coming from someone who doesn't remember the original book, but have read online some stuff like the added romance, orc subplot and Orlando Bloom, and these are so bad. So bad. Also heard the interpretation of Bilbo is wrong in this one;
So even though the Bilbo actor performance/actor are otherwise fine to me star power appeal wise, really makes me want to pick up the books too see how badly these movies have butchered the source material.
Conclusion? These movies are so painful to binge watch (more so TLorR movies thus far), with constant pausing the movies to take breaks that can sometimes last days.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 18, 2018 15:41:18 GMT
I definitely prefer the LoTR movies of The Hobbit.
I know, I know it's not a faithful rendering of the novels, and it definitely has its weak points. But in those moments where it DOES faithfully follow the books...those moments are pure magic.
The Hobbit movies not so much. A lot fewer of those moments, much more filler content, and more scenes that look like they were designed to be part of a video game tie in. (like the barrel ride and the dwarves trying to fight Smaug.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jan 18, 2018 15:52:23 GMT
Yeah, recall that dwarves trying to fight Samug scene being so bad, that this time around when I got to it I just shut off the movie and called it "The End." Since that's the final scenes of the movie anyway, so not missing anything.
I'm not even sure I can watch the third Hobbit movie, as all I recall from that one is mostly army spectacle fight scenes which I don't care for because it's all over the place. I dislike these army fight scenes in TLotR too, to where I wish they were cut to fit in more actual story/character development from the book.
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