vometia
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Post by vometia on Jan 2, 2018 18:49:01 GMT
If it is openly and directly worded as "you should not play the way you play" and "what you are doing/writing is wrong!" it does have impact on the other players. To avoid this, you must stay quiet about what you do. You cannot share the joy you experience from something that is a great experience for you - and therefore accept that something else is just as much a great experience for someone else. I do hope I didn't seem to be doing this with the Dorian's Moustache thing: I just think he looks so wonderfully chappish with his moustache.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 18:54:20 GMT
If it is openly and directly worded as "you should not play the way you play" and "what you are doing/writing is wrong!" it does have impact on the other players. To avoid this, you must stay quiet about what you do. You cannot share the joy you experience from something that is a great experience for you - and therefore accept that something else is just as much a great experience for someone else. I do hope I didn't seem to be doing this with the Dorian's Moustache thing: I just think he looks so wonderfully chappish with his moustache. There is a world of difference between: "I like it the other way" and "This is offensive, and should not be available to anyone". The games allow us to be subjective, and that's what great about 'em.
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Post by copper on Jan 2, 2018 19:05:12 GMT
I do hope I didn't seem to be doing this with the Dorian's Moustache thing: I just think he looks so wonderfully chappish with his moustache. Same for me. I love the 'stache. With how prim it is Dorian probably gets up every morning to shave that extra stubble and make sure his mustache is trimmed and combed just so. I agree he still looks attractive with stubble but I just don't picture him letting any grow in the first place. If players like mods like that though then all the power to them. For Dorian I'd have more of an issue with a mod that say, makes him straight.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 20:01:08 GMT
I do hope I didn't seem to be doing this with the Dorian's Moustache thing: I just think he looks so wonderfully chappish with his moustache. Same for me. I love the 'stache. With how prim it is Dorian probably gets up every morning to shave that extra stubble and make sure his mustache is trimmed and combed just so. I agree he still looks attractive with stubble but I just don't picture him letting any grow in the first place. If players like mods like that though then all the power to them. For Dorian I'd have more of an issue with a mod that say, makes him straight. In the late ninties I did not understand why there was demand for unlocking the romances for the opposite gender. After all, people could "just" make the character of the "appropriate" gender and romance the "right" way. Then I "got" it, and since then I feel that a player can spin a yarn about a hero that looks like what they want him or her to look like, falls in love with whomever they fall in love with, and be loved back... and accepting it wholeheartedly & completely makes Dorian no exception. Because if we do make an exception, we acknowledge the existence of the rules about who can love whom, the very thing that brought no end of suffering and grief to the endless folks over the ages.
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Post by river82 on Jan 2, 2018 20:29:17 GMT
You can do whatever you want, but I have the right to condemn you (if I want to) on what you do if I feel like it's counter productive or offensive. What's offensive is subjective and varies to such a degree between individuals that it's borderline useless for all serious discussions. There are some acts that are universally offensive, and some that are offensive because somebody's an anal douchebag and there's nothing in the meaning of the word "offensive" that distinguishes between the two.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 2, 2018 21:43:31 GMT
But if someone's modding choice doesn't affect me, does my contempt for that modding choice affect him? If it is openly and directly worded as "you should not play the way you play" and "what you are doing/writing is wrong!" it does have impact on the other players. To avoid this, you must stay quiet about what you do. You cannot share the joy you experience from something that is a great experience for you - and therefore accept that something else is just as much a great experience for someone else. So, we shouldn't criticize, for instance, homophobes and racists for using homophobic and racist mods because they might feel... repressed? I want to make use I'm following this. I don't see much reason to care about that. If somebody hates my values, or hates me for having those values, my response would be FDR's: "They are unanimous in their hate for me -- and I welcome their hatred." I actually get a little bit of that from some of the Gamergate clowns who pollute boards like this. (I suppose being hated by the right people is a kind of virtue signalling.)
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 2, 2018 21:51:53 GMT
You can do whatever you want, but I have the right to condemn you (if I want to) on what you do if I feel like it's counter productive or offensive. What's offensive is subjective and varies to such a degree between individuals that it's borderline useless for all serious discussions. There are some acts that are universally offensive, and some that are offensive because somebody's an anal douchebag and there's nothing in the meaning of the word "offensive" that distinguishes between the two. That's only an objection if he thinks he's being objective. If he's just doing this as an expression of will, subjectivity isn't a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 22:23:24 GMT
If it is openly and directly worded as "you should not play the way you play" and "what you are doing/writing is wrong!" it does have impact on the other players. To avoid this, you must stay quiet about what you do. You cannot share the joy you experience from something that is a great experience for you - and therefore accept that something else is just as much a great experience for someone else. So, we shouldn't criticize, for instance, homophobes and racists for using homophobic and racist mods because they might feel... repressed? I want to make use I'm following this. How can you reach the conclusion that the individual player's motivation to use a mod that unlocks a story that is different from the canon is homophobic and/or racist? Why should one person that uses an unlock on one character to be judged differently from a person that uses an unlock on another character when the motivation is "I want to romance this character on this character"? If you have always supported the unlocks for all players on all characters, and continue to do so, across all races and all genders, why is that you get slammed with a homophobic or racist label on one of them? I have equal opportunity Solas, Cassandra and Dorian mods installed on my game to allow me to play with actual competing choices on my female Qunari. Prior to installing those mods I had two PTs that complied to the vanilla game's requirements, romancing Dorian with a Male Qunari and romancing Cullen with an Elven Female, while keeping (the vanilla game's) flirts with Dorian running. So, if I run a Female Qunari and chose to romance Cassandra, I am acceptable; if I chose to run a male elf and romance Solas, I am acceptable, but if I run a female Qunari and romance Dorian, I am a homophobe & a racist? My motivation is that I like these three characters, and want to play a character that choses between those three options. My best shot at it with minimal modding is an Elven Male. oh, yeah, and I excluded Cullen from that quartet because I am not interested in him romantically after the first run. He is a Straight White Male who would only romance a Human or an Elf, very, very, very "correct" and would have fit straight into Baldur's Gate 2. A white woman like me should and must create a White Human Girl and romance him because that's the "correct" way of doing it & why I am adding mods, when I have that option.... Does not wanting to play an Elven Male & digging Dorian over Cullen makes me a racist and a femnazi? But I do not want to "just" create the "appropriate" character and run a romance the "right" way, because it ends up not creating a Qunari Female. I want to play a girl Qunari and chose a romance that appeals to me in her story & that actually makes it a struggle to chose one... and that makes me a terrible human being?
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vometia
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Argh my head
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: vometia
XBL Gamertag: vometia
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Post by vometia on Jan 2, 2018 22:34:47 GMT
How can you reach the conclusion that the individual player's motivation to use a mod that unlocks a story that is different from the canon is homophobic and/or racist? Why should one person that uses an unlock on one character to be judged differently from a person that uses an unlock on another character when the motivation is "I want to romance this character on this character"? [snip] Although we've disagreed on the subject of how characters are envisioned by the storytellers (I've said it means a lot to me that Sera is a lesbian, for instance), I see absolutely nothing wrong with modding the game to alter things to one's personal preferences. I did much the same with FO4 in that I installed a same-sex beginning mod, for instance. It seems at best rather hyperbolic to suggest "I want my character to romance such-and-such" (or even "I think Sera looks cool with red lipstick") is right up there with racism.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 2, 2018 23:29:29 GMT
The adventures of not-Brevnau continue!
The eyebrow arch measuring is new, but not seeing what's wrong with wanting to take away the only gay male companion in the entire franchise is not.
All in all - 4/8 feels too much like a rerun.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 23:39:52 GMT
The adventures of not-Brevnau continue! The eyebrow arch measuring is new, but not seeing what's wrong with wanting to take away the only gay male companion in the entire franchise is not. All in all - 4/8 feels too much like a rerun. Mods that expand the avatars eligibility for romances do not take away the canon, they give options to those who want to pursue them. Mods are headcanon material. They do not state that the game got it wrong, they allow an AU creation.
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Post by rras1994 on Jan 2, 2018 23:46:11 GMT
The adventures of not-Brevnau continue! The eyebrow arch measuring is new, but not seeing what's wrong with wanting to take away the only gay male companion in the entire franchise is not. All in all - 4/8 feels too much like a rerun. Mods that expand the avatars eligibility for romances do not take away the canon, they give options to those who want to pursue them. Mods are headcanon material. You're headcannoning the sexuality of a characters who's story arc is an allegory to gay conversion therapy forced by his father and you wonder why people are pushing back at that? And promoting the mod that does that? Your choices don't exist in a vacuum. People in real life are subjected to people thinking they can "change" their sexuality.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 2, 2018 23:50:16 GMT
Erasure side (for the record: I am really, really, really grossed out by straightwashing mods because, yeah, "curing the gay" is a thing that real people are subjected to ALL THE TIME), I don't understand how "straight" Dorian even works when he talks about his dad's attempt at gay conversion therapy and how much he loves dudes and is unable to feel that way about women (and unwilling to force himself to try. Because, you know... he is GAY).
Or Sera, who straight-up refuses a male Inquisitor and talks about how hot women are.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 0:04:25 GMT
Mods that expand the avatars eligibility for romances do not take away the canon, they give options to those who want to pursue them. Mods are headcanon material. Your headcannoning the sexuality of a characters who's story arc is an allegory to gay conversion therapy forced by his father and you wonder why people are pushing back at that? And promoting the mod that does that? The mod allows me to play my own version of the story and it does nothing different from the other mods that do exactly the same allowing the player to customize the romance options. I do not even know if I will chose Dorian or Cassandra, but I want to see a story where I play a female Qunari who can be loved back by one of them. I have played a female Qunari that was able to romance Solas and that did not work out for me. I want to see if I can experience the same incredible feeling in the lovestory department on a female character that I had on a male, and the default options do not provide me with it. Hence, I added mods and will see if it works. If not, I might give a shot to the Elven Male with Solas unlocked, but I want to try my favorite protagonist first. I wish it did not make people upset. I know it is wiser to do it in secret. But on the other hand, well, I wholeheartedly support everyone else in this respect, i have never once even thought of objecting to any unlocks in any other game, but when it comes to a single unlock I want... it’s the one wrong one and will garner hatred.
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Post by river82 on Jan 3, 2018 0:04:28 GMT
The great thing about mods is that each user can tailor their game to their own personal preferences. It's great because if one person prefers characters who wear underpants on the outside of clothing, that person doesn't have to gross everyone out by inflicting that preference on the masses. It's the understanding that each people like their games different and hey look, now we have the tools to make it happen. I thought that was a good thing, because the masses (or a minority) no longer have to push their wishes onto everybody.
Except now it's no longer a good thing because even the presence of those mods weirds people out? Even when you're not forced to use them? Just the mere existence of them gets people all agro? Are we going to start forming a band of mod police or something? Thought police? Desire police? People are not supposed to want things these ways *insert list here*
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2018 0:12:19 GMT
People are free to pretend that Dorian is straight and Isabela is white. I'm free to respond like this because it grosses me out and I think people who use these mods haven't given a whole lot of thought to what those characters represent, or worse, have thought about it and dismissed it as unimportant. And with that, I'm gonna excuse myself from this thread because it's bringing up a lot of bad memories for me as a raging bisexual from the Bible Belt.
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Post by river82 on Jan 3, 2018 0:18:37 GMT
People are free to pretend that Dorian is straight and Isabela is white. I'm free to respond like this because it grosses me out and I think people who use these mods haven't given a whole lot of thought to what those characters represent, or worse, have thought about it and dismissed it as unimportant. And with that, I'm gonna excuse myself from this thread because it's bringing up a lot of bad memories for me as a raging bisexual from the Bible Belt. Many posts on this page made me respond exactly the same way. Pretending that washing out a gay character is in any way a statement against homosexuality and not, in this instance, a plea for more options and choices in the romance department is once classic example, although people do like to fling out the "offended" tag and biggen up the reason they feel offended in some weird justification for what are, often, irrational feelings. What characters mean to you sometimes aren't what they mean to others. The same with developers, the same with writers. Writers and developers often lose power over their creations once it hits the public domain, it's a well documented phenomenon. You projecting your experiences as a bi or gay from the bible belt doesn't really help matters, it's not exactly an objective place to begin discussion. Your viewpoints are already tainted by your experiences.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 3, 2018 0:19:41 GMT
Mods that expand the avatars eligibility for romances do not take away the canon, they give options to those who want to pursue them. Mods are headcanon material. This is not about mods. It's about (mostly) straight posters first stating that bisexuality ruins a character (Leliana, Kaidan, Isabela, Josephine) and more recently behaving like having a single opposite-sex LI they can't access is some kind of personal affront. Telling everyone that Traynor really wanted to hook up with MShep, or how much better it would have been if Dorian was created bi (or straight). Having homosexual characters in fiction/media is important to a lot of people, and these constant rants about how most characters should be straight or that bisexuality should be a stand-in for the entire LGBT+ are supremely annoying. Straight/bi Dorian mod makes as much sense the Thomas the tank engine Skyrim mod, but I don't really care. It's the fact that you cannot discuss LGBT characters without someone going on about how to "fix" their sexuality.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2018 0:22:35 GMT
People are free to pretend that Dorian is straight and Isabela is white. I'm free to respond like this because it grosses me out and I think people who use these mods haven't given a whole lot of thought to what those characters represent, or worse, have thought about it and dismissed it as unimportant. And with that, I'm gonna excuse myself from this thread because it's bringing up a lot of bad memories for me as a raging bisexual from the Bible Belt. Many posts on this page made me respond exactly the same way. Pretending that washing out a gay character is in any way a statement against homosexuality and not, in this instance, a plea for more options and choices in the romance department is once classic example, although people do like to fling out the "offended" tag and biggen up the reason they feel offended in some weird justification for what are, often, irrational feelings. What characters mean to you sometimes aren't what they mean to others. The same with developers, the same with writers. Writers and developers often lose power over their creations once it hits the public domain, it's a well documented phenomenon. You projecting your experiences as a bi or gay from the bible belt doesn't really help matters, it's not exactly an objective place to begin discussion. Your viewpoints are already tainted by your experiences. You projecting your experiences as "a straight" doesn't really help matters either, seeing as you have no idea how significant gay characters are to gay people.
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Post by river82 on Jan 3, 2018 0:23:44 GMT
You projecting your experiences as "a straight" doesn't really help matters either, seeing as you have no idea how significant gay characters are to gay people. You're assuming I'm straight? Interesting. I've never sought out a girlfriend and I'm over 30 years old, so obviously I'm "straight"
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 3, 2018 0:24:44 GMT
Oh right that exists. And white Dorian. Ugh.
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Post by rras1994 on Jan 3, 2018 0:36:52 GMT
Oh right that exists. And white Dorian. Ugh. And White Vivienne. The world kinda sucks, doesn't it?
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 3, 2018 0:40:54 GMT
Oh right that exists. And white Dorian. Ugh. And White Vivienne. The world kinda sucks, doesn't it? Those exist? Why in the Maker's balls?
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 3, 2018 0:43:27 GMT
And White Vivienne. The world kinda sucks, doesn't it? It does. And I just now remembered the Stellaris mod that made all humans white. When does it stop.
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Post by Verfallen on Jan 3, 2018 0:56:27 GMT
Your headcannoning the sexuality of a characters who's story arc is an allegory to gay conversion therapy forced by his father and you wonder why people are pushing back at that? And promoting the mod that does that? The mod allows me to play my own version of the story and it does nothing different from the other mods that do exactly the same allowing the player to customize the romance options. I do not even know if I will chose Dorian or Cassandra, but I want to see a story where I play a female Qunari who can be loved back by one of them. I have played a female Qunari that was able to romance Solas and that did not work out for me. I want to see if I can experience the same incredible feeling in the lovestory department on a female character that I had on a male, and the default options do not provide me with it. Hence, I added mods and will see if it works. If not, I might give a shot to the Elven Male with Solas unlocked, but I want to try my favorite protagonist first. I wish it did not make people upset. I know it is wiser to do it in secret. But on the other hand, well, I wholeheartedly support everyone else in this respect, i have never once even thought of objecting to any unlocks in any other game, but when it comes to a single unlock I want... it’s the one wrong one and will garner hatred. The reason it is upsetting people is you seem to be deliberately and steadfastly misunderstanding why people are upset by your assertion that changing the sexuality of Dorian in particular — due to his entire character and storyline — is perfectly reasonable because you want to play as a female. All I can think at this point is you're finding this humorous, because no amount of patient explanation about the ugly real world realities that pertain to his character and story, and why Dorian's sexuality is integral to his character and to change that removes the impact of his backstory, seem to make any impression whatsoever. You can't even agree his being gay is more impactful from a narrative perspective? Go use the mod. You're perfectly within your rights and it doesn't affect my game in the least. But the fact that you insist on announcing repeatedly that you're using it to indulge your own fancies suggests you aren't quite as benign in your desire as you say. Doing it "in secret" isn't the same as realizing there's no need to tell everyone else you're using it. And that you don't seem to comprehend (or perhaps you do and just like poking the anthill) why the mod upsets people is...rather disheartening.
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