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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Dec 26, 2017 14:44:23 GMT
POLL Spam: With all the discussion on character quality, I though some polls would be interesting! So, what do you think of Liam’s writing? Good, bad, ugly?
Vote and Comment!
(Posted here to avoid the romance enthusiasts)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 16:23:38 GMT
I'm differentiating between the quality of the writing and the quality of the person that is Liam.
Liam as a person was a doofus. But his character was well written. I could see that character in real life. Disliked that character a lot ... he wasn't evil, he was a well meaning fool. A lot of good intentions, executed in the worst manner possible. Plus a very large degree of obliviousness. To make that real, to make that character come alive, requires a fair amount of good writing. So did I like Liam? Oh, gosh no. I couldn't stand him and as soon as I could replace him on an away team, I did ... only bringing him along for his loyalty mission and his side mission on Eos.
But to make that doofus come alive, having teammates chide him for his screw-ups, have him totally in denial, never learning, never getting better ... I can see that person in real life. To me, that is good writing. The lesson from Liam? Good intentions are not enough. Good intentions poorly executed can get people killed. Work a soup kitchen, sell magazines at a kiosk, but don't engage in a profession where lives are at stake and where people count on you to make the right decisions.
Liam's loyalty mission was funny, creative, highlighting all the reasons why I couldn't stand him. I took particular delight in Ryder dressing Liam down, at the end, when Ryder had Bradley detain the Angara they rescued. Ryder's response was very well done. So, Liam was a character I loved to hate ... Cora's constant criticisms were a delight ... it almost made me want to bring Liam along, just to hear her tear into him ... almost.
Bottom line, disliked the character, but very much respected the writing that created that character. Also, the VA did an awesome job of bringing Liam's words to life.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Dec 26, 2017 17:29:11 GMT
It was extremely bad, the stupid lines in the initial mission didn't help from the get-go. One of the stupidest and unmemorable characters from the whole franchise, same could be said about the game.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 26, 2017 17:35:05 GMT
Pure trash. That's all I can say.
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 26, 2017 18:24:31 GMT
Like Grinch said, I found Liam exasperating, but well written. He was a well meaning dumbass naive and impulsive character and stayed consistent throughout, though I would have liked to have seen him mature a little by the end of the game. Liam's nomad conversations with Vetra were super awkward, which I loved. It was like having a telenovella going on in the back seat. Liam had a few more things to talk about than Cora or Vetra (his car, alien outreach, HUSTL), so that was good. I would have liked to have seen him put his HUSTL experience to use at some point in the game, just to prove that he was competent at something and validate Alec's choice of him for the team.
Liam: Ryder, in disaster situations like this, you need to do x and y and make sure that the people get z support. I've already set up p and q, and I'm just waiting on you to decide if you want to focus on b or c.
Ryder: Wow, thanks, Liam. Good thing you were here.
If MEA2 happens I'd like to see Liam grow and become more self-disciplined, but keep his idealistic outlook. I found him refreshing after hanging out with Shepard's crew of cynical professional killers for 3 games. Just no more "If you do the right thing it's *supposed* to work out!" rants.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 26, 2017 19:03:54 GMT
I'm differentiating between the quality of the writing and the quality of the person that is Liam.
Liam as a person was a doofus. But his character was well written. I could see that character in real life. Disliked that character a lot ... he wasn't evil, he was a well meaning fool. A lot of good intentions, executed in the worst manner possible. Plus a very large degree of obliviousness. To make that real, to make that character come alive, requires a fair amount of good writing. So did I like Liam? Oh, gosh no. I couldn't stand him and as soon as I could replace him on an away team, I did ... only bringing him along for his loyalty mission and his side mission on Eos.
But to make that doofus come alive, having teammates chide him for his screw-ups, have him totally in denial, never learning, never getting better ... I can see that person in real life. To me, that is good writing. The lesson from Liam? Good intentions are not enough. Good intentions poorly executed can get people killed. Work a soup kitchen, sell magazines at a kiosk, but don't engage in a profession where lives are at stake and where people count on you to make the right decisions.
Liam's loyalty mission was funny, creative, highlighting all the reasons why I couldn't stand him. I took particular delight in Ryder dressing Liam down, at the end, when Ryder had Bradley detain the Angara they rescued. Ryder's response was very well done. So, Liam was a character I loved to hate ... Cora's constant criticisms were a delight ... it almost made me want to bring Liam along, just to hear her tear into him ... almost.
Bottom line, hated the character, but very much respected the writing that created that character. Also, the VA did an awesome job of bringing Liam's words to life. I guess I'm on the same boat here, but doubt besets me. Was it really intentional? Or did the writer try to make "complex" character, but the "complexity" highlighted negatives instead? Was that incident meant to show that breaking barriers takes risk or that good intentions shouldn't run before the thought? These talks about the car, flying from Milky Way? To show that he isn't ready for reality?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 26, 2017 19:34:11 GMT
Liam: Took a good idea and went way, way too far with it. I don't mind that the veterans/soldier types had an anti-authoritarian foil, but did he have to be such a dick about it? That's the writing's fault. It's possible to have an opposing opinion and state it in an intelligent or amusing way (examples, Solas or Dorian in DAI). Liam's dialogue was neither classy nor amusing -- it was flat out stupid, one-noted, and unimaginative. That's not Liam being naive but well-meaning, that's just bad writing.
His loyalty mission and the setup leading up to it was better writing. I have no problem with him fucking up as a character -- that was written okay and motivated well enough, I guess. Barely.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Dec 26, 2017 20:17:13 GMT
I actually liked him. Not exactly a serious character, but it's not like you can take MEA seriously anyway.
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Post by jrpN7 on Dec 26, 2017 22:38:01 GMT
Liam was easily one of my least favourites. I don't really even know how to put it. He existed but I don't even remember what he was even about or why I needed him on the crew. He was everything and nothing. He was your "best buddy" except not really. He was a smart about combat/military tactics, except was he really? He was disciplined and had self restraint, except not at all. He was mature, but hahaha not.
I admit: I also am unsure if I'm being extreme in my disliking of this crew due to my constant comparison to Shepard and the Normandy crew. Because, while a stand alone crew they may be fine... when compared to Shepard and Normandy, they're all 6-7 years younger, have different and less sensible goals, aren't disciplined and try to pass everything off as a joke. The gravity of the situation in Andromeda was made moot due to Tempest crew.
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Post by natetrace on Dec 27, 2017 0:19:22 GMT
I don't hate Liam, but he is my least favorite. He's like what would have happened in the OT had Jenkins survived past the first ten minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 0:32:17 GMT
I really liked it that they actually managed believable character growth on Liam from a screw up with out of proportion good intentions, to someone who absorbed all the experiences and started acting appropriately, entirely relying on his baggage, making correct conclusions from his mistakes. I don’t like his beer, couch and stupid car in space, but the story arc moved me past those traits to being happy warm fuzzy to see him second time around.
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Post by clips7 on Dec 27, 2017 6:39:42 GMT
Liam was Trash....i took him out with me ONE time on a mission and that was all i needed. Dude is just an idiot and even though he will give you background conversation and enlighten you on his past, for me it was all very boring...talking to Liam was like watching paint dry on a wall....just no connection and poorly written.
His loyalty mission tho was actaully one of the most interesting with the ship being turned upside down, it gave the combat a unique element....
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 27, 2017 10:52:39 GMT
Ugh.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 27, 2017 15:49:49 GMT
I gave him a mediocre, primarily because of the stupid behavior on his part during his loyalty mission. Without that, I'd have bumped him to above average. He really was a decent guy. Weird in some ways, but an overall good sort.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 28, 2017 2:08:57 GMT
Above average. Still better than Jacob.
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Post by isaidlunch on Dec 28, 2017 5:42:32 GMT
Terrible character and his loyalty mission is hands down the worst mission in the series. If he returns in MEA2 (if there even is an MEA2) then he needs to be written by someone else and developed properly as a character, preferably speaking normally this time. That shirtless scene with Jaal was literal autism.
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Post by Pearl on Dec 28, 2017 6:03:09 GMT
I didn't think it would be possible for Bioware to create a character I despised more than Jacob, yet here we are. At least Jacob could get the job done most of the time.
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Post by abaris on Dec 28, 2017 13:37:43 GMT
I think Liam's in line with other bad Bioware characters. Such as Kaidan. When playing ME1 Kaidan was always the one to bite the dust. With ME3 and the gibbed editor I revived him sometimes, just to rub into his face that I (femshep) cheated on him with several other Squaddies.
That's what Liam is to me. Annoying and ultimately a bore. But it's no secret that there's hardly any MEA character that grew on me in the same way as some of the OTs characters did.
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Post by Serza on Dec 28, 2017 14:47:50 GMT
I spy another Sera from the poll.
His character has strong points, and it has flaws. He is by no means perfect, he is impulsive and acts before he thinks.
I have said this before that he couldn't be a leader in any way. I would personally not trust him with any position of command.
HOWEVER. Were I to choose one of the crew to cover me, I would look no further than Liam. He is loyal and capable in a fight. He means well and is likely to give his opinion on why a choice is good or bad.
He wants to help, and he wants to create a better society, which is precisely why he's caught in the middle of "pure autism" as others describe it.
While the diplomats focus on high politics, he directly takes actions, with Jaal's help, that aim to make the Angara and the Initiative live together smoothly in day to day life. It's HIM who tries to figure out what the touchy points of the Angara are, and it is HIM whose initiative has the greatest chance of making the two parties succeed on a day to day basis.
Does he belong on the team? Yes. Ryder, willingly or not, focuses on high politics with his or her actions, while Liam makes sure that the common people aren't ignored in favor of politicking.
Once again, he is no leader. He requires supervision to an extent, but given that, he will outperform many.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Dec 30, 2017 16:29:14 GMT
Well damn........
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2018 17:51:33 GMT
Who?
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Felya87
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Post by Felya87 on Jan 1, 2018 18:29:24 GMT
I have a hard time giving an actual opinion on Liam. I don't mind him overall... but at the same time I can't understand why he is there, and in that role. He is way too much childish and hothead to be in the first team. How could he have been a policeman before, and a member in a special squad before? He completely lack the self control and maturity for that part... I could understand him if he was just out of trainig, but like this... well, he felt inconsistent to me. Not personality wise, but in his actions. Just from the very start when he shoot in rage a dead Kett. Like, guy, I know he was a bastard, but try to act like a professional!!!
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jan 1, 2018 19:31:09 GMT
I have a hard time giving an actual opinion on Liam. I don't mind him overall... but at the same time I can't understand why he is there, and in that role. He is way too much childish and hothead to be in the first team. How could he have been a policeman before, and a member in a special squad before? He completely lack the self control and maturity for that part... I could understand him if he was just out of trainig, but like this... well, he felt inconsistent to me. Not personality wise, but in his actions. Just from the very start when he shoot in rage a dead Kett. Like, guy, I know he was a bastard, but try to act like a professional!!! This is what I was thinking. I like him alright, but I can't really understand why Alec would have picked him to be part of the Pathfinder team.
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Post by Felya87 on Jan 1, 2018 19:46:39 GMT
I have a hard time giving an actual opinion on Liam. I don't mind him overall... but at the same time I can't understand why he is there, and in that role. He is way too much childish and hothead to be in the first team. How could he have been a policeman before, and a member in a special squad before? He completely lack the self control and maturity for that part... I could understand him if he was just out of trainig, but like this... well, he felt inconsistent to me. Not personality wise, but in his actions. Just from the very start when he shoot in rage a dead Kett. Like, guy, I know he was a bastard, but try to act like a professional!!! This is what I was thinking. I like him alright, but I can't really understand why Alec would have picked him to be part of the Pathfinder team. Yeah... if we had a scene where Alec talked about Liam as having the "rookie" in the team, I could understand. But the Liam I have know doesn't act like a trained agent/soldiar with experience on the camp. Probably if he actually acted like one when it was the right time, Liam had the potential to be one of my favourite character in Andromeda. Because one can be both a trained professional and be a funny person, but have to act like a professional or a funny person when the time is right.
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Post by abaris on Jan 1, 2018 19:56:47 GMT
He's like what would have happened in the OT had Jenkins survived past the first ten minutes. On the other hand, Kaidan did survive past the first ten minutes. And he's easily the Liam of the OT. Thankfully gone after Virmire - depending on your choices anyway.
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