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Post by oyabun on Oct 4, 2016 0:19:51 GMT
So: they are became uncontrolable dangerous monster, because they wanted to be uncontrolable dangerous monster? Much better. And so much acceptable. But no: an experienced, and careful mage don't be accidently abomination. Most of the accidents was the Circle system fault: for example Meredith's sister. Orsino's description of what happened to the first First Enchanter of Kirkwall's Circle really seems to indicate that an experienced and careful mage can accidentally become an abomination. Now picture what would have happened if an abomination version of a First Enchanter level mage had been loose anywhere but the Circle. That is why, while I am willing to let careful and experienced mages out to work, I am very leery about letting them live outside the Circle permanently. Templars are more ineffecctive than Spiritual warriors vs mages since the latter have spell immunity and Dodge ability and don't need lyrium,but of course few can afford to become SW,i even think that they are better than mages since they fuse themselves with ancient spirits. A spirit warrior has the abilities of the spirits he's using, and most spirits probably don't have those abilities. Furthermore, a spirit warrior needs to worry about them trying to possess him. A spirit warrior does not have the ability of the spirits they are using(in DAA they were not that OP dunno however if they can achieve a power like that to copy the spirit of the fade ) because they are not fused in fact a SW can't use the magic of a spirit and it isn't a possessed being either but one who learned to call spirits to enter the fade to use specific abilities that belong to this form(ethereal warrior),the spirit is just a door they use to enter in contact with the fade and spirits are not interested to possess mortals(those are the demons) and SW don't use demons.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:24:04 GMT
In its processed form, lyrium may be handled by anyone, but long term exposure or a single mistake while working with it can lead to serious side effects. Prolonged use by Templar becomes addictive, the cravings unbearable. The effects of lyrium addiction for templars include paranoia, obsession, and dementia Symptoms of lyrium hunger pangs include fatigue, headaches, forgetfulness, an unquenchable thirst, and cold hands. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours. Cullen states that templars also lose their memories to prolong imbibing of lyrium. It starts small at first- a misplaced item or words to a song- but more fades away over time. Mages have additionally been known to suffer physical mutation. According to Vivienne, anything that increases the capacity of a mage's magic (such as lyrium) creates a damaging effect on the body. For mages, this is known as mana imbalance. Some adverse effects of mana imbalance may include conscious dreaming in the Fade (such as those experienced during the Harrowing periods of dizziness, and hearing voices. Unlike templars, mages are able to recuperate from the adverse effects. - dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/LyriumIt also also states that spirts are immune to the effects, so I suggest that people take lyrium are trained Seekers, and one way or another, it's addictive and poisonous to people, and it'd be idiotic to suggest giving untrained people such a drug, and if you'd like to know, my father was a drug addicts, and you know what ended up happening to him? He died of drug overdose, and I feel like that's a sufficient reason not to give people such a drug in the name of Mage Freedom, as people will have to grow those drugs.. and they might end up killing all mages anyhow, as the wikia pages states that all mages who are in the presence of raw lyrum will die instantly (besides for Hawke, apperately.. but maybe Red Lyriums different.....) Or are you so inconsiderate, you'd just let those things happen? You'd kill mages, on masses, if you allowed lyrium to be grown as a crop, you'd have entire towns that are suffering from the fumes of lyrium, and the dwarves probably would refuse to give people lyrium, so yeah, you'd be forced to grow your own lyrium, and without Ozammars dwarves, your pretty much screwed on that part. What your relating are the effects of present day lyrium, there is no information on pre-veil lyrium, is there? Wow, you're taking this too personally and not looking into it as a fictional possibility. How they refine lyrium in Thedas may not even be the most optimal process and something extra could be needed. Ya know, one of those ancient elven technologies that were lost to history, after the veil went up. Considering lyrium is a made up substance that has no true history, there can new insights gained on it. I mean hey, it would appear that DA facts get changed all the time, why not flirt with the possibility that lyrium has a history that needs to be explored other than being some drug. It's been thousands of years since the veil went up, that's long enough for a basically neutral substence to become contaminated and a danger to the people. So now your talking about post veil lyrium? Ah, well than Templars would be useless than, as everyone would already be a Mage. Okay, lol. I see your point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:42:24 GMT
What your relating are the effects of present day lyrium, there is no information on pre-veil lyrium, is there? Wow, you're taking this too personally and not looking into it as a fictional possibility. How they refine lyrium in Thedas may not even be the most optimal process and something extra could be needed. Ya know, one of those ancient elven technologies that were lost to history, after the veil went up. Considering lyrium is a made up substance that has no true history, there can new insights gained on it. I mean hey, it would appear that DA facts get changed all the time, why not flirt with the possibility that lyrium has a history that needs to be explored other than being some drug. It's been thousands of years since the veil went up, that's long enough for a basically neutral substence to become contaminated and a danger to the people. So now your talking about post veil lyrium? Ah, well than Templars would be useless than, as everyone would already be a Mage. Okay, lol. I see your point. I'm thinking that maybe some ancient elves had a way to refine, or the ancient lyrium was refined enough to be harmless and extremely helpful to society. What Thedas has now is a contaminated version and the lyrium in the fade is even more dangerous. What if a part of ancient elven technology was an uncontaminated, pure version of lyrium that made their magic and artifacts so powerful. The action of raising the veil could've effected the lyrium, basically ripped it apart on a molecular level, with some parts of it remaining in Thedas and other parts of it going into the fade. So essentially both Thedas and the fade have lyrium, but the chemical composition in both areas are slightly different. Both have impurities now that Modern Thedas technology can't remove completely and the lyrium in the fade is more likely to become tainted because it is cut off from life. If lyrium was the original source of life, it might still need to be connected to it to be helpful, and without the ability to flow freely through the fade and back, it can become more and more contaminated, while in the fade it stagnates. I would say introduce a way to explore this possibility.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 4, 2016 3:31:54 GMT
Anyone can get Templar abilities without training. You just need to take a specially prepared form of lyrium because regular lyrium will just kill nonmages. Apparently warden abilities get stronger with age. Also Fiona is a special exception Please don't tell me Fiona is special because of Maric's dragon blood wonder sperm getting her pregnant, because if that were the case, then any female warden getting impregnated by a Qunari should be able to become taint free. I would think dragon blood in Qunari would be stronger than the dragon blood in Maric. Sleeping with Maric was just a stupid joke that people who didn't realize was a joke took as fact and spread. Fiona was actually cured when the Architect used amulets that turned wardens into ghouls. Fiona was halfway into the transformation when Duncan destroyed the amulet. That's how she was cured, not sleeping with Maric
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 9:10:57 GMT
[quote source="/post/97979/thread" timestamp="1475521750" author=" riverdaleswhiteflash "Didn't you say that they accidentally to become abominations? ... But you not right: to become abomination, the mage need to accept the demon's offer. Yes and no. The way Gaider described this, it seems more like the mage needs to not actively reject it, even if the only reason they don't is because they're distracted (or barely conscious after getting horribly beaten) and not really able to. Which explains both First Enchanter Casimira and the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin that seems to be trying to forcibly possess the Warden. It also probably explains the Journal of the Tranquil codex entry that seemed concerned with forcible possession. Oh, and Iron Bull seems to think he can be possessed without agreeing to, judging by his dialogue during the Fade Sequence in Here Lies the Abyss, though it must be said that that's not as reliable as the rest of the evidence in that direction since Qunari views on mages and magic seem to verge on paranoia. And I feel confident I'm missing some evidence to the effect that "demons need consent" is at best an Obi-Wan Truth. The mages, who are able to leave the Circles maybe really trustworthy, but maybe only manipulative. I think, Vivienne too hungry for power. Exactly such people fall into temptation. The way I feel about Vivienne is complicated. In some ways she's exactly what the Circle system was meant to protect others from. In at least two, however, she's exactly what it was meant to create. The first is that she believes the Circle should exist, and argues for it at least as well as I am. The second is that she really is too afraid of demons to be possessed by her consent: we have evidence from Cole's mind reading that she's paranoid even about helpful spirits. At any rate, she's powerful enough that she doesn't need to worry about forcible possessions even if they can happen. Mages are not mentally ill. I didn't say they were. I said that they are similar to the mentally ill, in that they can pose a danger to others without wanting to and without suffering any moral failing. If mages can be possessed without their consent (and I believe I've compiled a pretty good list of reasons to believe they can) then I think the comparison is a valid one. The Inquisition kind of weakened the Chantry's grip on the lyrium trade too, not to mention the availability of lyrium in Tevinter. There has to be mundanes out there that have tried the stuff, somewhere, if it's what gives Templars their 'abilities' and not the training, then lyrium should be able to effect anyone, not just mages and Templars, and give them some sort of powers. IMO The description of the Templar specialization in DA2 said that Hawke is able to use Templar abilities due to buying smuggled lyrium. Though since the specializations from the last two games don't seem to be honored in DA:I I'm not sure if that's actually part of the lore or not. The specialization description explicitly says that the spirit is augmenting the warrior's abilities, rather than just being a medium. I have no idea how the spirit would grant an ability it can't use. And while using demons to grant the power doesn't seem to be the usual arrangement, I see no reason why it should be an impossible one and no reason why a demon wouldn't want to make such an arrangement as a way of getting a foot in the door in the mortal realm.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 12:27:32 GMT
[quote source="/post/97979/thread" timestamp="1475521750" author=" riverdaleswhiteflash "Didn't you say that they accidentally to become abominations? ... But you not right: to become abomination, the mage need to accept the demon's offer. Yes and no. The way Gaider described this, it seems more like the mage needs to not actively reject it, even if the only reason they don't is because they're distracted (or barely conscious after getting horribly beaten) and not really able to. Which explains both First Enchanter Casimira and the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin that seems to be trying to forcibly possess the Warden. It also probably explains the Journal of the Tranquil codex entry that seemed concerned with forcible possession. Oh, and Iron Bull seems to think he can be possessed without agreeing to, judging by his dialogue during the Fade Sequence in Here Lies the Abyss, though it must be said that that's not as reliable as the rest of the evidence in that direction since Qunari views on mages and magic seem to verge on paranoia. And I feel confident I'm missing some evidence to the effect that "demons need consent" is at best an Obi-Wan Truth. The mages, who are able to leave the Circles maybe really trustworthy, but maybe only manipulative. I think, Vivienne too hungry for power. Exactly such people fall into temptation. The way I feel about Vivienne is complicated. In some ways she's exactly what the Circle system was meant to protect others from. In at least two, however, she's exactly what it was meant to create. The first is that she believes the Circle should exist, and argues for it at least as well as I am. The second is that she really is too afraid of demons to be possessed by her consent: we have evidence from Cole's mind reading that she's paranoid even about helpful spirits. At any rate, she's powerful enough that she doesn't need to worry about forcible possessions even if they can happen. Mages are not mentally ill. I didn't say they were. I said that they are similar to the mentally ill, in that they can pose a danger to others without wanting to and without suffering any moral failing. If mages can be possessed without their consent (and I believe I've compiled a pretty good list of reasons to believe they can) then I think the comparison is a valid one. 1. Abominations are very rare things. (If wouldn't, the mages would destroyed the whole Thedas, no matter, the Circles are exist, or not.) 2. For become abominatian, necessarly a demon influence, and an experienced, trained mage able to refuse. 3. The Cantry's Circle don't really study the spirit/demon world, because this is filthy. This is the reason, why so much tranquils in the Circles. The tranquility is a very easy tool, much easyer, than learning about spirits/demons. (Why people need to go Tevinter for information? The Tevinters are more smarter? I don't think...) About Vivienne: a paranoid person never strong enough to resist the temptation. Just see Meredith. She is the best example. Vivienne is powerhungry and paranoid. Te best combo for demons! (Nice potential Divine...) In the Circle's raise paranoid people.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 16:42:05 GMT
Please don't tell me Fiona is special because of Maric's dragon blood wonder sperm getting her pregnant, because if that were the case, then any female warden getting impregnated by a Qunari should be able to become taint free. I would think dragon blood in Qunari would be stronger than the dragon blood in Maric. Sleeping with Maric was just a stupid joke that people who didn't realize was a joke took as fact and spread. Fiona was actually cured when the Architect used amulets that turned wardens into ghouls. Fiona was halfway into the transformation when Duncan destroyed the amulet. That's how she was cured, not sleeping with Maric Oh good. The whole Maric shagging theory seemed so stupid when I heard it. A disruption in a spell/destrution of a magic amulet seems a lot more plausible.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 4, 2016 19:47:52 GMT
[...] Mages are not mentally ill. I didn't say they were. I said that they are similar to the mentally ill, in that they can pose a danger to others without wanting to and without suffering any moral failing. If mages can be possessed without their consent (and I believe I've compiled a pretty good list of reasons to believe they can) then I think the comparison is a valid one. Except even the mentally ill can be discharged from medical centers (on a regular basis I might add) and still live with the regular populace if they receive treatment. Not a cure, but treatment. In the mage's case this is training and education along with a strong will. All of which can be received in the Circle and out of it. By all means, keep the uneducated and the newly diagnosed (emergent mages) in the Institution that will house and educate them, just don't expect those who have passed their test (Harrowing) to stay in the tower indefinitely under the guise of "you might hurt someone ". If we wish to continue with the mentally ill analogy, then once a patient agrees to maintain their constant treatment program, has passed their test (Harrowing) and seems mentally fit to rejoin society (which most mages fit), then there is exceptionally little reason to keep them in the institution indefinitely. You can still keep tabs on them, but you have little to reason to keep them there for an extended period of time unless they want to or unless they have committed some crime.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 20:13:03 GMT
Except even the mentally ill can be discharged from medical centers (on a regular basis I might add) and still live with the regular populace if they receive treatment. Not a cure, but treatment. In the mage's case this is training and education along with a strong will. All of which can be received in the Circle and out of it. By all means, keep the uneducated and the newly diagnosed (emergent mages) in the Institution that will house and educate them, just don't expect those who have passed their test (Harrowing) to stay in the tower indefinitely under the guise of "you might hurt someone ". If we wish to continue with the mentally ill analogy, then once a patient agrees to maintain their constant treatment program, has passed their test (Harrowing) and seems mentally fit to rejoin society (which most mages fit), then there is exceptionally little reason to keep them in the institution indefinitely. You can still keep tabs on them, but you have little to reason to keep them there for an extended period of time unless they want to or unless they have committed some crime. I've already stated that I'm less committed to keeping Harrowed mages in the Circles, and in fact want to see some of them going out into the world to benefit it. The reason I don't entirely want to see them becoming completely free is that if they do turn, we've just given a demon a portal to a populated area devoid of Templars, and a very powerful body to go with it. If a Harrowed mage is far less likely to turn, they're also more of a disaster if they do. Things come pretty close to evening out there. And keeping tabs on them won't help much if the very worst happens: if the mage knows they're being watched, the abomination can run like hell before backup gets there.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 20:13:28 GMT
1. Abominations are very rare things. (If wouldn't, the mages would destroyed the whole Thedas, no matter, the Circles are exist, or not.) 2. For become abominatian, necessarly a demon influence, and an experienced, trained mage able to refuse. 3. The Cantry's Circle don't really study the spirit/demon world, because this is filthy. This is the reason, why so much tranquils in the Circles. The tranquility is a very easy tool, much easyer, than learning about spirits/demons. (Why people need to go Tevinter for information? The Tevinters are more smarter? I don't think...) About Vivienne: a paranoid person never strong enough to resist the temptation. Just see Meredith. She is the best example. Vivienne is powerhungry and paranoid. Te best combo for demons! (Nice potential Divine...) In the Circle's raise paranoid people.[/quote] 1: Yes, they are. And entire cities can go up in smoke when they do form. Maybe this rare event should be made to happen somewhere where there aren't many people for it to happen to? 2: If that was 100% reliable you wouldn't expect First Enchanter Casimira to turn. And it seems to get less reliable the less talented you are. 3: Even if I conceded the point that the Circles don't study the Fade (and there's an argument in that direction considering that the Divine had to personally order Pharamond to do what he did,) how is Tranquility an alternative to it? It's used on mages who are considered dangerous. The Circle studying spirits would hardly make them less so. 4: I think a paranoid person is able to avoid giving in to the very thing she's paranoid about. Meredith didn't exactly give in to a blood mage, did she?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 20:24:24 GMT
Except even the mentally ill can be discharged from medical centers (on a regular basis I might add) and still live with the regular populace if they receive treatment. Not a cure, but treatment. In the mage's case this is training and education along with a strong will. All of which can be received in the Circle and out of it. By all means, keep the uneducated and the newly diagnosed (emergent mages) in the Institution that will house and educate them, just don't expect those who have passed their test (Harrowing) to stay in the tower indefinitely under the guise of "you might hurt someone ". If we wish to continue with the mentally ill analogy, then once a patient agrees to maintain their constant treatment program, has passed their test (Harrowing) and seems mentally fit to rejoin society (which most mages fit), then there is exceptionally little reason to keep them in the institution indefinitely. You can still keep tabs on them, but you have little to reason to keep them there for an extended period of time unless they want to or unless they have committed some crime. I've already stated that I'm less committed to keeping Harrowed mages in the Circles, and in fact want to see some of them going out into the world to benefit it. The reason I don't entirely want to see them becoming completely free is that if they do turn, we've just given a demon a portal to a populated area devoid of Templars, and a very powerful body to go with it. If a Harrowed mage is far less likely to turn, they're also more of a disaster if they do. Things come pretty close to evening out there. And keeping tabs on them won't help much if the very worst happens: if the mage knows they're being watched, the abomination can run like hell before backup gets there. Templars are useless against the abominations: you can see in the Ferelden Circle. Templars also useless against blood mages. So Templars only effective against the innocent mages.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 20:28:12 GMT
I've already stated that I'm less committed to keeping Harrowed mages in the Circles, and in fact want to see some of them going out into the world to benefit it. The reason I don't entirely want to see them becoming completely free is that if they do turn, we've just given a demon a portal to a populated area devoid of Templars, and a very powerful body to go with it. If a Harrowed mage is far less likely to turn, they're also more of a disaster if they do. Things come pretty close to evening out there. And keeping tabs on them won't help much if the very worst happens: if the mage knows they're being watched, the abomination can run like hell before backup gets there. Templars are useless against the abominations: you can see in the Ferelden Circle. Templars also useless against blood mages. So Templars only effective against the innocent mages. Then why are Annulments even possible? Without getting into whether or not they're justified, if becoming an abomination or using blood magic was enough to make Templars useless against you you'd think they couldn't happen.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 20:54:36 GMT
2: If that was 100% reliable you wouldn't expect First Enchanter Casimira to turn. And it seems to get less reliable the less talented you are. 3: Even if I conceded the point that the Circles don't study the Fade (and there's an argument in that direction considering that the Divine had to personally order Pharamond to do what he did,) how is Tranquility an alternative to it? It's used on mages who are considered dangerous. The Circle studying spirits would hardly make them less so. 4: I think a paranoid person is able to avoid giving in to the very thing she's paranoid about. Meredith didn't exactly give in to a blood mage, did she? Because her paranoia and thirst for power, Meredith dealt with an unknown power, and became some kind of abomination. Just as the mages, whom she feared. I like her fate, this proved, that any people able to become abomination, who yield to the temptation. Vivienne is a big threat. Not because she is a mage, rather because she is a powerhungry, paranoid person. But... again: not you said, the mages become abominations accidentally? if this is right (not, this is not right), Vivienne same dangerous as other mages. (First Enchanter Casimira!!!) First Enchanter Casimira? Maybe was accident... but very rare accidents can not justified the innocent's imprisoning! Both in two case, the Circle system failed. Not safer than the freedom, just cruel, unjust and inhumane. (Lord Seeker Lucius? What about him?) And do not forget: in the Circles live a lot of innocent people, who can't escape, when they are in the trouble...
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 21:18:24 GMT
swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.htmlTUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject? DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].And this is why even the most kind-hearted mage still needs some degree of watching. They can, unknowingly and unwillingly, become the instrument of a demon. Magic is truly Blessed With Suck
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 21:36:44 GMT
swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.htmlTUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject? DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].And this is why even the most kind-hearted mage still needs some degree of watching. They can, unknowingly and unwillingly, become the instrument of a demon. Magic is truly Blessed With Suck Thank you. This is, what I thought about it. Then, need to accept THINGS. The possession happen not accidentally, the mage can able to waching it. Not as easy, but possible.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 21:40:02 GMT
2: If that was 100% reliable you wouldn't expect First Enchanter Casimira to turn. And it seems to get less reliable the less talented you are. 3: Even if I conceded the point that the Circles don't study the Fade (and there's an argument in that direction considering that the Divine had to personally order Pharamond to do what he did,) how is Tranquility an alternative to it? It's used on mages who are considered dangerous. The Circle studying spirits would hardly make them less so. 4: I think a paranoid person is able to avoid giving in to the very thing she's paranoid about. Meredith didn't exactly give in to a blood mage, did she? Because her paranoia and thirst for power, Meredith dealt with an unknown power, and became some kind of abomination. Just as the mages, whom she feared. I like her fate, this proved, that any people able to become abomination, who yield to the temptation. Vivienne is a big threat. Not because she is a mage, rather because she is a powerhungry, paranoid person. But... again: not you said, the mages become abominations accidentally? if this is right (not, this is not right), Vivienne same dangerous as other mages. (First Enchanter Casimira!!!) First Enchanter Casimira? Maybe was accident... but very rare accidents can not justified the innocent's imprisoning! Both in two case, the Circle system failed. Not safer than the freedom, just cruel, unjust and inhumane. (Lord Seeker Lucius? What about him?) And do not forget: in the Circles live a lot of innocent people, who can't escape, when they are in the trouble... First: let's get our definition of abomination down. "Abomination" in this setting means possessed mage. What Meredith becomes arguably qualifies by most definitions, but not by the one used in this setting. For another thing: Vivienne's paranoia is explicitly about dealing with the temptations of demons. That's not going to lead her to dealing with them. In fact it seems to be drawing her too far in the opposite direction. And if it does somehow happen that this paranoia leads her to draw on some other evil power, she's more dangerous than a non-mage who'd drawn on the same evil power because she has her own natural power as a mage. Being a mage is a not insignificant part of why Vivienne is a big threat, even if she's still be scary without her magic. As for the accidents being very rare, they're also very dangerous. Connor had almost no magic when he turned, and he still has it in his power to wipe out Redcliffe when merging with a relatively powerful but not top tier demon. Imagine a grown-up Connor with the same demon. I don't think you've answered the point that if an abomination does form in the Circle, it's at least not forming in a city full of people with no magic. Even if Circles make abominations more plentiful, they're also surrounding them with people who aren't entirely defenseless. Do you have any actual evidence that abominations can't form from mages who don't agree to it, and that questionable consent like being unable or too distracted to resist isn't enough? And what does Lord Seeker Lucius have to do with this? What does a corrupt person reaching the top of an organization and destroying it from within after it's already gone off the rails anyway have to do with whether or not that organization's business as usual is okay?
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 21:41:01 GMT
swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.htmlTUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject? DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].And this is why even the most kind-hearted mage still needs some degree of watching. They can, unknowingly and unwillingly, become the instrument of a demon. Magic is truly Blessed With Suck Thank you. This is, what I thought about it. Then, need to accept THINGS. The possession happen not accidentally, the mage can able to waching it. Not as easy, but possible. But the mage needs to be alert ALL THE TIME. A single moment of weakness, one error in judgement, could spell disaster, and the mage may not even be aware of what is happening!
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 21:42:48 GMT
swooping-is-bad.livejournal.com/1286233.htmlTUK: With mages and possession, does a mage actually have to agree to a deal with a demon in order to get possessed, or can it just happen? Can demons just go "Ah-hah, you're asleep, I will slip in while nobody's looking..." Is the truth different from what the Chantry says on the subject? DG: They have to agree, but agree doesn't necessarily mean a conscious "Yes, please, please come in my body and turn me into a twisted abomination." Agreeing can be a moment of weakness. If you're unwilling or unable to resist being possessed then you'll be possessed. There are mages who make an intelligent bargain with a demon. Sometimes, the tricky part, something we haven't been able to show very well, is sometimes they're not aware that's what they're doing. I don't know how many people have read Asunder, the last Dragon Age novel. That does show a bit of how it's possible for a mage to be in contact with a demon and not even be aware that that's what's happening, and agreeing to things that they don't know that they're agreeing to. To say that a mage must agree is both true and false in the sense that a lot of it relates to the will of the mage and their strength to resist a very determined demon, but I think you can also see from the games and the novels that there are levels of possession as well. Not everybody who becomes possessed by a demon immediately turns into an abomination and starts attacking everything in sight. It depends on the type of demon that's attempting to take possession, how powerful they are, how intelligent they are, and the mage in question. As is typical of Dragon Age, the answer is never [typical].And this is why even the most kind-hearted mage still needs some degree of watching. They can, unknowingly and unwillingly, become the instrument of a demon. Magic is truly Blessed With Suck Thank you. This is, what I thought about it. Then, need to accept THINGS. The possession happen not accidentally, the mage can able to waching it. Not as easy, but possible. But, this quote explicitly says that's not true. A mage needs to agree, but they can do so without knowing they're doing it. Which absolutely leaves the possibility of accidental possession open.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 21:46:18 GMT
I just wonder, that Tevinter is still alive and thriving...
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 21:46:19 GMT
As for the accidents being very rare, they're also very dangerous. Connor had almost no magic when he turned, and he still has it in his power to wipe out Redcliffe when merging with a relatively powerful but not top tier demon. Imagine a grown-up Connor with the same demon. I don't think you've answered the point that if an abomination does form in the Circle, it's at least not forming in a city full of people with no magic. Even if Circles make abominations more plentiful, they're also surrounding them with people who aren't entirely defenseless. Do you have any actual evidence that abominations can't form from mages who don't agree to it, and that questionable consent like being unable or too distracted to resist isn't enough? One thing the game has not really demonstrated very well is that abominations are supposed to be freaking scary! They are a gestalt combination of mage and demon more powerful than the two separate. And yet, especially in DA2, they are treated as simple mooks, just another demon to be killed, when they can wipe out entire towns, kill whole squads of templars. And yes, as my quote above, "questionable consent" is definitely a way mages can be possessed. They can be tricked, approached at a weak or distracted moment, they can give permission under duress (we se that in the Uldred fight in DAO, in fact)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 21:55:24 GMT
I just wonder, that Tevinter is still alive and thriving... Quite the puzzle, isn't it? If I had to guess, I'd say that it's partially because most of the mages who actually live all that long are powerful enough that they are unlikely to be possessed. Apparently WoT states that Felix Alexius is not one of those mages, and that his grandfather tried to have him killed; if that's at all typical I'd imagine that most of the Tevinter mages a demon can possess are powerful and on guard. And part of it is just because abominations are in general not an existential threat to the world. I've argued that they've wiped out whole cities, not that they've wiped out whole countries.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 21:57:59 GMT
Because her paranoia and thirst for power, Meredith dealt with an unknown power, and became some kind of abomination. Just as the mages, whom she feared. I like her fate, this proved, that any people able to become abomination, who yield to the temptation. Vivienne is a big threat. Not because she is a mage, rather because she is a powerhungry, paranoid person. But... again: not you said, the mages become abominations accidentally? if this is right (not, this is not right), Vivienne same dangerous as other mages. (First Enchanter Casimira!!!) First Enchanter Casimira? Maybe was accident... but very rare accidents can not justified the innocent's imprisoning! Both in two case, the Circle system failed. Not safer than the freedom, just cruel, unjust and inhumane. (Lord Seeker Lucius? What about him?) And do not forget: in the Circles live a lot of innocent people, who can't escape, when they are in the trouble... First: let's get our definition of abomination down. "Abomination" in this setting means possessed mage. What Meredith becomes arguably qualifies by most definitions, but not by the one used in this setting. For another thing: Vivienne's paranoia is explicitly about dealing with the temptations of demons. That's not going to lead her to dealing with them. In fact it seems to be drawing her too far in the opposite direction. And if it does somehow happen that this paranoia leads her to draw on some other evil power, she's more dangerous than a non-mage who'd drawn on the same evil power because she has her own natural power as a mage. Being a mage is a not insignificant part of why Vivienne is a big threat, even if she's still be scary without her magic. As for the accidents being very rare, they're also very dangerous. Connor had almost no magic when he turned, and he still has it in his power to wipe out Redcliffe when merging with a relatively powerful but not top tier demon. Imagine a grown-up Connor with the same demon. I don't think you've answered the point that if an abomination does form in the Circle, it's at least not forming in a city full of people with no magic. Even if Circles make abominations more plentiful, they're also surrounding them with people who aren't entirely defenseless. Do you have any actual evidence that abominations can't form from mages who don't agree to it, and that questionable consent like being unable or too distracted to resist isn't enough? And what does Lord Seeker Lucius have to do with this? What does a corrupt person reaching the top of an organization and destroying it from within after it's already gone off the rails anyway have to do with whether or not that organization's business as usual is okay? Abomination is abomination. Just remember: Meredith was paranoid, she afraid from the uncontrollable power. AND: she dealt with an uncontrollable power. No. The paranoid person is not safe because of his/her paranoia. The demons can use his/her paranoia easily. No. Very rare accidents not justify innocent thousands' imprisoned. Included very dangerous accidents. How can I prove something that didn't happen? Lord Seeker Lucius dealt with a demon. As a mage. All people able to deal with a demon.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 22:00:41 GMT
I just wonder, that Tevinter is still alive and thriving... Quite the puzzle, isn't it? If I had to guess, I'd say that it's partially because most of the mages who actually live all that long are powerful enough that they are unlikely to be possessed. Apparently WoT states that Felix Alexius is not one of those mages, and that his grandfather tried to have him killed; if that's at all typical I'd imagine that most of the Tevinter mages a demon can possess are powerful and on guard. And part of it is just because abominations are in general not an existential threat to the world. I've argued that they've wiped out whole cities, not that they've wiped out whole countries. So: Tevinter safer, then the Circles. Thank you. We talked about the destruction of entire cities by one Abomination. If this happens usually, by now Tevinter already has repeatedly been destroyed.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 22:10:06 GMT
As for the accidents being very rare, they're also very dangerous. Connor had almost no magic when he turned, and he still has it in his power to wipe out Redcliffe when merging with a relatively powerful but not top tier demon. Imagine a grown-up Connor with the same demon. I don't think you've answered the point that if an abomination does form in the Circle, it's at least not forming in a city full of people with no magic. Even if Circles make abominations more plentiful, they're also surrounding them with people who aren't entirely defenseless. Do you have any actual evidence that abominations can't form from mages who don't agree to it, and that questionable consent like being unable or too distracted to resist isn't enough? One thing the game has not really demonstrated very well is that abominations are supposed to be freaking scary! They are a gestalt combination of mage and demon more powerful than the two separate. And yet, especially in DA2, they are treated as simple mooks, just another demon to be killed, when they can wipe out entire towns, kill whole squads of templars. And yes, as my quote above, "questionable consent" is definitely a way mages can be possessed. They can be tricked, approached at a weak or distracted moment, they can give permission under duress (we se that in the Uldred fight in DAO, in fact) Connor's accident was the one of the Circle system fault.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 22:37:17 GMT
One thing the game has not really demonstrated very well is that abominations are supposed to be freaking scary! They are a gestalt combination of mage and demon more powerful than the two separate. And yet, especially in DA2, they are treated as simple mooks, just another demon to be killed, when they can wipe out entire towns, kill whole squads of templars. And yes, as my quote above, "questionable consent" is definitely a way mages can be possessed. They can be tricked, approached at a weak or distracted moment, they can give permission under duress (we se that in the Uldred fight in DAO, in fact) Connor's accident was the one of the Circle system fault. I did not mention Connor. I am saying it can happen to ANY mage. With an untrained child like him, it's simply easier.
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