The Blanketfort (crying and throwing up) - The Official Solas Thread [Spoilers]

But he did. That was his first choice made independently of the Qun. Whether you think it's shitty or not doesn't make it less true. It's also entirely true that Solas genuinely respects him for that choice and we see his interactions with Tal-Vashoth Bull are very different than compared to Qunari Bull. Both of them seem to have genuinely struck a friendship after Chargers were saved.
There's a whole series of articles a fan has written that Weekes has linked and basically agreed in which she goes in depth to explain that before "Demands Of The Qun" EVERYTHING Iron Bull has done - including romancing the Inquisitor - is never removed from him being a loyal Qunari. There's always a calculation towards that there. He may have made decisions on his own, what with him adopting strays to Chargers, but he still did that as a spy who has a way to get to people and do his work.

We have it proven to us when we don't complete Bull's personal quest and - despite Krem and the rest living - he shows in Trespasser to kill us. Those were not really fully independent choices, away from the Qun (heck - him wanting to be reeducated after what happened to in on Seheron shows how much he was NOT independent from them).
Because there are no individuals in the Qun, or at least they don't matter. We have it demonstrated to us when we choose to sacrifice Chargers or not complete his quest.

And Solas knows there are individuals - as proven by his tale to befriended Inquisitor about a Qunari baker that was delighted by her 'small rebellions' in each loaf she baked. But as much as she might have yearned for freedom, she was still part of the Qun and she made bread because they told her so. Just like Bull spied because he was told to do it.

Since you brought this conversation here from somewhere for some reason, I'm going to jump in ...

Disregarding that Solas doesn't think anyone in Thedas is a person unless he befriends the Inquisitor, Solas simply said that Bull is a man who had possibly (not definitively) made the first choice of his life that was independent of any other loyalties.  Something he chose simply because he wanted it for himself and not with any underlying motives.  We'll also disregard that Bull actually left the choice between the Charges and the dreadnought up to the Inquisitor and did not in fact make the choice himself.  Which I think actually speaks a great deal in and of itself as it seems he could not choose between his loyalty to the Charges and his loyalty to the Qun.

I see a lot of times that people choose to think that a character deferring to PC or another character to help them choose is somehow showing lack of independence.

I don't think that's a good way of thinking.

People choose to turn to help to someone and choose to go with what was suggested. Asking for help and accepting the decision made by a person we asked help from ain't a sign of lack of independence or weakness.

In the same vein - Bull chose the decision of an outsider over any Qunari. Even over Gatt, his long-life friend who obviously cares for him, standing right next to him.

You apparently agree with Solas and don't see IB as a person prior to becoming Tal Vashoth either, so I don't know why I belabor, but here I go.....

No, it was not. His first decision (that I know of in game) independent of any loyalties to anyone else was reaching out a helping hand to Krem. The Qun didn't make him do it, he, the individual, chose to do that. It's very likely the Qun would have disapproved if they'd known all the details, but since IB reported his blossoming Merc Group Career as a cover story (rather than a cover up that helped to save his soul) it was all good to them.



No, this is someone seeking help before they put a bullet in their brain (insert Theodosian equivalent here) and using the Social System Framework available to them. There is NO alternative in all of Thedas sans a Cole Induced Mind Wipe, and honestly, that's horrific as well so so much for the alternative.



But that means Solas has the same opinion of the Qunari Triumvirate. That the individual (and sometimes rebellious) soul yoked by a questionable societal system is NOT a person. He is as guilty of that opinion as the Qunari leadership is.

Probably part of the issue of his being so okay with killing so many Tranquil/Sheeple/non real people of modern Thedas.



Reaching out to help Krem was, I think, first and foremost, a reaction based on instinct to protect a victim from a hate crime. I'm sure Iron Bull didn't sit a couple minutes watching Krem's beating before considering that the Qun would be delighted that he'd had this great idea for a mercenary company while watching a Transgendered Man being beaten, and who better to not to question him if they owed them a life debt?

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A baker putting sugar in the loaf is the choice of an individual. I don't care how small it is, that's an Individual's decision as well. Solas just seems to have such HIGH qualifications for what constitutes a real person, who would have guessed considering the rest of his story arc?

This may apply to the Soldiers/Fighters, but makes absolutely no sense for the Butchers, the Bakers, the Candlestick makers... the Librarians if they have them.

Nothing is wrong in Thedas to anyone but him and just like Zatharian, he's trapped in a past that affects his present. And just like Zatharian, pretty much time for him to die.

Actually it makes total sense for even butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers.  The Qun has a command economy.  People are told what to do and how to do it.  Their philosophy demands order therefore pretty much everything is controlled to one extent or another.  Thus even butchers, bakers, candlestick makers, and prostitutes (although they don't call them that) are told that's what they're going to do for the rest of their lives.

Also there are a LOT of things wrong with Thedas.  Let's start with how the elves (city and dalish) are treated.  And dwarven casteless.  And slavery in Tevinter.  And blood magic (not that I think blood magic is wrong in and of itself but a lot of blood mages do tend to become possessed).  And the darkspawn - where did they come from and how and why?  Unless you believe the Chantry stories.  There's more but kinda late for me, have to sleep.

There is nothing innately Savage about the Qunari or the Inquisiter would have issues or describe their parents as having issues.

A baker isn't going to go Tal Vashoth and start eating human entrails. That is an insane jump and it's that sort of level of violent behavior I would attribute to an actual Savage.

Ok honest, last thing before I go to sleep lol ...

The Qunari have a tendency to drug and brainwash people into thinking their happy.  What happens when that doesn't work?  People's minds break all the time.  Why would a post office employee suddenly decide to shoot up their workplace?  Really, a postal employee?  That's about as innocuous as a baker.  That's probably a bad comparison but eh.

At any rate, for a society as rigidly controlled as the Qunari, when you are taught from birth that if you don't conform you WILL go insane and turn savage, then what happens when you don't want to conform?  Obviously some of the qunari are able to shake off these teachings or you wouldn't have people like the merchant in Awakenings, the mercenary in DA2, a Vashoth Inquisitor's parents.  But there are obviously just as many who feel they can't conform to the Qun and therefore they must be insane and end up conforming in another way.

I also think that because we don't have a society or a philosophy like the Qun that it can be difficult (not impossible just hard) for us to really wrap our heads around that mindset.  I'm also going to point out again that they like to brainwash and drug people.  That will mess with anyone's head.

The brainwashing is the same brainwashing every culture does. You're training a person to be a person. however, IF they stray too far off path, they do get into the actual druging and brainwashing, I agree.  It just seems like most of the "savage Tal Vashoth" were actually soldiers with PTSD. Pretty much most we've met were actually Qunari off of the Arishok's ship and he's a military leader which means all soldiers, right? PTSD causes violence in humans in reality. So, a Baker saying, "Damn you all, I'll fall in love with the candle stick maker cross the street, bonk them, and have a baby and you can't stop me in spite of the fear you've trained into me!" is the last person to go insane and violent.My first quiz had Solas with her at all times, they were friends (she was human) and I have no attraction for him. She swore to redeem him.

I neither hate Solas or even particularly love Iron Bull. But Solas is a hypocritical jerk for a huge portion of his dialogue once you know who he is and what he plans. I'd still redeem if I could, I just find it unlikely it's possible.

They're not innately savage, was my point on this matter. They are lost (not to mention undereducated), and they think that denying the Qun must mean they embrace the total opposite. And this excerpt doesn't list the prior jobs of these Tal Vashoth, I still think the Qunari most likely to become confused and truly savage have PTSD. The women weren't implied to be captives (although at least afraid of their approach), the kids are kids.

It's kind of sad that the Fog Warriors, the native people of Seheron, don't try to invite these lost qunari into the fold. They invited Fenris. PErhaps it's the racial tension.

none of this much ties into my argument that Iron Bull was a person capable of making individual decisions far before he renounced the Qun. Or that Solas is a jerk for saying "good job on not being a sheeple anymore. If your non sheeple self needs help figuring out what it's like not to be a sheeple anymore, I'll totally talk to you about it anytime."

Nobody claims that they're innately savage. Heck, Solas claims that they're not innately savage. Literally. In dialogue I've already quoted.


The only people who really claim it are the Qunari. And many Qunari choose to believe that, including many of those who became Tal-Vashoth. So even though they're technically free, they became 'savage', because they believe they can only be that. It isn't innate. It's very much nurtured into them.

Of course it does. You just don't want to let go of the narrative that Solas is a jerk and not much else matters in this discussion unless you bend it to this narrative, it seems. I mean, nevermind that you ignore that Solas has put a qualifier ('possibly') in the sentence you have so much problem with.