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Post by Natashina on Dec 13, 2016 6:18:31 GMT
Fen'Harel FacemanI've been reading your posts in this thread and in others. I have a feeling we're close to the same age. I"m a better dancer than your gif, but I had spent almost a decade in the goth-club scene. For now, nap time. My husband took the night off and is taking care of the dogs for me. I do have a quick theory to share with you all. What if elves did not directly come from spirits? JoH gave me some ideas. The Avaar have a symbiotic relationship between spirits and their mages. What if elves aren't directly descended from spirits, but rather elves existed in a more primitive state and spirits decided to merge and grow with the race. The mortal elves would give their spirit friends the sense of living in this world without allowing more base desires (such as pride, fear or rage,) to overtake them. The elves would gain the knowledge and perspective of the spirit. Perhaps that is why Solas told a more human Cole that he had chosen a hard road. Not because he was once a spirit, but because he was once bound to a spirit that choose to become a part of his corporal form? I don't know for certain. I probably have grammatical and spelling errors all over the place here. I'm going to take a badly-needed nap and come back later. I look forward to seeing what the expert think of that.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 6:59:40 GMT
I've come prepared: I think what's "real" is between the Titans and the Fade. Both oppose and compliment one another and in the middle is "reality". Perhaps it starts with the Titans, the "real" but interlaced with "magic" (lyrium). The races pop up from the "real" stew of the Titans. They're varied with the dwarves being closest to the Titans but they all still have these magical forces to various degrees. Then these magical forces are released in dreams from the sentient "reals" and form the Fade. Then the dreams become sentient and spirits and these magical spirits return to where they came from to interact with "real" sentients. It's like a wave of reality moving up from the ground, transforming, then returning in a different state from the sky (Fade). The states mainly coalesce into "real". Then Solas sets up the Veil and this wave from the Titan to Species to Fade then back gets distorted and slowed and tainted. Then the Blight comes from corrupting the foundation, the Titans. That corruption, in the form of magic red lyrium, flows again to the species, corrupting them. Then the Fade is corrupted, from the corrupt dreams and magics of both the Titans and the species.
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Post by close2myheart on Dec 13, 2016 7:28:25 GMT
You'd think we'd get to see the Golden City by DA4?
Wonder if it IS part of Arlathan and wether or not Solas will be so kind to give us a conclusive tour and no more half answers by then? Hmmn...
Would be interesting if you'd get to enter his home base and surprise surprise, you find a large mural of his beloved vhenan on one of the walls.
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 13, 2016 7:49:10 GMT
You'd think we'd get to see the Golden City by DA4? Wonder if it IS part of Arlathan and wether or not Solas will be so kind to give us a conclusive tour and no more half answers by then? Hmmn... Would be interesting if you'd get to enter his home base and surprise surprise, you find a large mural of his beloved vhenan on one of the walls. Mmmaybe. The Veil and Solas was a pretty big lore drop, so they may push the Golden City/Blight relationship reveal further down the story. Then again, maybe not. Supposedly we're going to be dealing with Tevinter and, well, the Blight did pop onto the scene with the Tevinters meddling with the Fade.
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Post by ellawyn on Dec 13, 2016 8:03:10 GMT
Fen'Harel Faceman I've been reading your posts in this thread and in others. I have a feeling we're close to the same age. I"m a better dancer than your gif, but I had spent almost a decade in the goth-club scene. For now, nap time. My husband took the night off and is taking care of the dogs for me. I do have a quick theory to share with you all. What if elves did not directly come from spirits? JoH gave me some ideas. The Avaar have a symbiotic relationship between spirits and their mages. What if elves aren't directly descended from spirits, but rather elves existed in a more primitive state and spirits decided to merge and grow with the race. The mortal elves would give their spirit friends the sense of living in this world without allowing more base desires (such as pride, fear or rage,) to overtake them. The elves would gain the knowledge and perspective of the spirit. Perhaps that is why Solas told a more human Cole that he had chosen a hard road. Not because he was once a spirit, but because he was once bound to a spirit that choose to become a part of his corporal form? I don't know for certain. I probably have grammatical and spelling errors all over the place here. I'm going to take a badly-needed nap and come back later. I look forward to seeing what the expert think of that. Well, here's a rundown of my take on the "elves came from spirits" theory - every person in Thedas was made from a spirit and a body, and both were necessary to be "whole." Everyone already has a spirit - it's the part of them that goes to the Fade when they sleep (Since all mortal creatures do, except dwarves, meaning they have to cross the Veil somehow but obviously aren't there physically.) but some spirits do not have a body, and seek one out despite all mortal bodies already being taken, so to speak. This is how abominations are made. If the invading spirit is not a good match with the occupant one, it creates twisted piles of flesh like the creatures we often see as mook fodder. If the match is decent, it creates sustainable but unstable abominations like Justice/Anders. And if the match is right on the money, or very near to it, then it creates very stable "abominations" like Wynne. Perhaps everyone's spirit follows a theme just as regular spirits do - for instance, the question of "Was the creature we met in Nightmare's realm the Divine's soul or simply a spirit impersonating her?" can be answered with "both." She is the soul of the deceased Divine, but the deceased Divine's soul was a spirit of Faith. The theories that Solas is a spirit of Wisdom/Pride is not contradictory with his comment about growing up as a boy in some village, because he's both, a physical person who was born with a soul of a spirit of Wisdom/Pride. As such, the Veil makes the connection between body and spirit very thin for most people. Removing it would be necessary to return them to a state of wholeness. Anyway, point being - I think that is a symbiotic relationship, really. The body and the spirit are both absolutely necessary to being a whole person. No body, and you're a spirit. No spirit, and you're a Tranquil. I guess it's not the exact same theory as you posited here, but that's just what it reminded me of. The only issue I see with it is it makes it difficult to reconcile the fact that there appears to be something special about elves, as far as spirits and the Fade go. But if everyone's connected to spirits, how are the elves special for it? Hmm...
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Post by close2myheart on Dec 13, 2016 8:03:51 GMT
No kidding on that. The Veil isnt natural and was an artificial construct by an elvhen mage. Damn And we'd get to share coffee with FenHarel too, no less XD.. Dayum. I wonder what kind of bomb they'll drop in DA4? A choice between allying with another Ancient Magister or FenHarel? Do a Hawke and accidentally let Elgar'Nan free, grumpy and determined for revenge? Hatch a griffon egg? Dual protag game XD .. (my fantasy, I know but hey.. who knows?) XD
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Post by javeart on Dec 13, 2016 9:19:06 GMT
Apparently it's very easy to change my mind, now I'm thinking again that the "abominations" idea it's what maybe makes the most sense I come and go all the time from "abominations" to "materialized spirits", there are very good theories in both sides and I can see "hints" for both possibilities throughtout all the games too. For instance, about what Natashina says, I had the feeling playing JoH that the almost incidental revelation that Ameridan had a "spirit companion" was far from incidental in fact, and that what we know call abominations probably was very frequent back then, maybe even the norm, at least for mages, once the veil was created. And I never thought of that, but ellawyn 's idea of the Divine being (partially) an actual spirit of Faith is kind of cool too. This indecision had in fact led to me think that maybe everything is true, a part of the whole truth. I'm not really sure that all the entities of the pre-veil times need to be all of the same nature, maybe there were spirits, and then there were "normal" elves which might or might not been similar to dwarfs, and maybe the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones were something different, and maybe not even all of them were the same thing. Now I'm thinking, as I said in other thread, that maybe Dirthamen was a spirit of Wisdom too, like maybe Solas is, he sounds a bit like it, so Falon Din could be some sort of dual entity deified as two diffent gods or he could have been initially related to Dirthamen in the same way Mythal was to Fen'Harel and only later he became a God, as could have been the case for Solas if he woud have wanted to. So maybe some evanuris were "normal" but more powerful elves, and other were spirits or abominations. Maybe there was a little bit of everything, "abominations", materialized spirits and "normal" spirits, maybe without the veil the relationship between the real world and its creatures and the fade and its creatures was more fluid and all the reationships between them that we get to see in modern Thedas as monstruos were frequent then. All that said, I liked it so much when I discovered the theory of Solas being a spirit of Wisdom materialized and bound to Mythal to function as her guard, counselor, general or whatever, that ultimately broke free, that I think it could easily become my new IT it might not be true (as I said, I can perfectly imagine other theories being "the right ones") but this one fits so well the character IMO, that I might end up headcanoning it in the end Also, I always enjoy reading theories about all of this
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 13, 2016 14:50:51 GMT
Well, here's a rundown of my take on the "elves came from spirits" theory - every person in Thedas was made from a spirit and a body, and both were necessary to be "whole." Everyone already has a spirit - it's the part of them that goes to the Fade when they sleep (Since all mortal creatures do, except dwarves, meaning they have to cross the Veil somehow but obviously aren't there physically.) but some spirits do not have a body, and seek one out despite all mortal bodies already being taken, so to speak. This is how abominations are made. If the invading spirit is not a good match with the occupant one, it creates twisted piles of flesh like the creatures we often see as mook fodder. If the match is decent, it creates sustainable but unstable abominations like Justice/Anders. And if the match is right on the money, or very near to it, then it creates very stable "abominations" like Wynne. Perhaps everyone's spirit follows a theme just as regular spirits do - for instance, the question of "Was the creature we met in Nightmare's realm the Divine's soul or simply a spirit impersonating her?" can be answered with "both." She is the soul of the deceased Divine, but the deceased Divine's soul was a spirit of Faith. The theories that Solas is a spirit of Wisdom/Pride is not contradictory with his comment about growing up as a boy in some village, because he's both, a physical person who was born with a soul of a spirit of Wisdom/Pride. As such, the Veil makes the connection between body and spirit very thin for most people. Removing it would be necessary to return them to a state of wholeness. Anyway, point being - I think that is a symbiotic relationship, really. The body and the spirit are both absolutely necessary to being a whole person. No body, and you're a spirit. No spirit, and you're a Tranquil. I guess it's not the exact same theory as you posited here, but that's just what it reminded me of. The only issue I see with it is it makes it difficult to reconcile the fact that there appears to be something special about elves, as far as spirits and the Fade go. But if everyone's connected to spirits, how are the elves special for it? Hmm... I think you're on the money but I have wondered if the "special" thing about elves is that they have raw spirits direct from the Fade while the other races have somewhat altered spirits which have the nomenclature "souls". I've wondered this since both words are used in the games nearly interchangeably. Maybe that's just because we use the words "spirit" and "soul" in the real world pretty much interchangeably, but maybe it has some extra significance in Thedas? I don't know. The way Solas uses the word "spirit" when referring to some intangible characteristic he admires in a friendly or romanced Inquisitor seems to hint at some significance to me. What is the potential difference between having a spirit and having a soul? Well, this brings in the Titans a bit. I wonder if souls are spirits that are maybe mingled or infused with something that comes from the Titans - something like whatever renders existence more stable and makes the world of Thedas possible. How would this play out in game? Not sure, but as I have indicated in previous posts I think it might give the ancient elves a few extra abilities, possibly things like telepathy and empathy, which, thanks to Cole, we know spirits have. Dwarves' souls have the most Titan infusion, humans less, etc. Now, if the different races' metaphysical beliefs about what happens to them after death is somewhat based in fact, maybe the extent of their Titan infusion is why Dwarves return to the Stone rather than go through the Fade to the Maker's side, which is the human belief. Modern elves still believe they go to the Beyond (aka the Fade) which is the realm of the spirits. Qunari call the Fade the land of the dead but I'm not sure if we've learned yet what the Qun teaches about what happens to you after death.
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Post by CapricornSun on Dec 13, 2016 19:59:29 GMT
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Post by NightSymphony on Dec 13, 2016 20:20:50 GMT
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Post by NightSymphony on Dec 13, 2016 20:25:40 GMT
*pouts* It's too expensive for me, though. Oh well, I have a black generic one that I bought on Etsy a few years ago. I suppose that is good enough.
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Writing is hard. Drawing is harder. I need to do more of both.
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Post by Moondreamer on Dec 13, 2016 20:53:59 GMT
*sighs* For when is my long dreamed of bust?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 13, 2016 21:36:17 GMT
With regard to the meaning of Falon'Din, I've often wondered if the true meaning was not "Friend of the Dead" but "Friend of Death", and he got the name after he went on his killing spree to acquire more worshippers. However, I've also suggested over on the elven post that he could have been the ruler over the Fade and thus if the Fade is where spirits go after death, then to acquire more followers people need to die. When you also consider that Din sounds very similar to Lin and the latter means "blood", he name likely has very sinister connotations.
Both the ancient elves and the modern Dalish also refer to him as Lethanavir, which seems to refer to his ability to guide people through the Fade. This was probably his original role when those in Uthenera needed a guide to help them find the deepest reaches of the Fade but as he gradually became more corrupt, his role became more sinister.
I've also suggest on the other post that whilst he was probably guilty of all that Solas accuses him of, Solas may have had a particular grudge against Falon'Din because of the control he had over the Fade and quite possibly the spirits there as well.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 13, 2016 23:10:23 GMT
I'll share more stuff later. I've got a couple of theories that I'm surprised didn't show up in this thread. I'd love to run my little backstory about Rowan by you guys to see what you think. It is very possible that those - or similar - theories were discussed on over 6000 pages of original Blanketfort That thread is luckily preserved on forums like Fextralife, but it'd take a while to read it all ... ... Buuuuut, we may as well discuss all these things all over again over here (while we wait for more fresh meat from Bioware, gawd I'm starving for new stuff!!), so any and all theories are welcome, of course
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Post by Garnet on Dec 14, 2016 4:53:41 GMT
*pouts* It's too expensive for me, though. Oh well, I have a black generic one that I bought on Etsy a few years ago. I suppose that is good enough. This was my reaction too. I was like YAY! ..Oh... I was hoping for closer to $25
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Post by lilyenachaos on Dec 14, 2016 5:01:40 GMT
I'd have loved this, but geez. Maybe someday. Though I'll look at it like this...since they are bringing Solas related stuff into the store, that means we will definitely be seeing him in the next game, that will definitely be happening, and they are definitely going to announce something about it next year. Yeah. Definitely.
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Post by lynroy on Dec 14, 2016 5:21:00 GMT
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Post by smilesja on Dec 14, 2016 7:26:24 GMT
I wonder how Solas plans on destroying the world.....
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Post by Solas on Dec 14, 2016 9:21:40 GMT
I'd have loved this, but geez. Maybe someday. Though I'll look at it like this...since they are bringing Solas related stuff into the store, that means we will definitely be seeing him in the next game, that will definitely be happening, and they are definitely going to announce something about it next year. Yeah. Definitely. i LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK
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Post by Natashina on Dec 14, 2016 9:30:50 GMT
Solas I fully expect them to announce either the new IP or DA4 this coming fall. We've just gotta get through the ME:A launch and all of the post-launch hooplah.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 14, 2016 14:36:37 GMT
Solas I fully expect them to announce either the new IP or DA4 this coming fall. We've just gotta get through the ME:A launch and all of the post-launch hooplah. I think it'll probably be the Secret IP first, since they seem to have a lot of resources working on that, and fewer working on DA4 at the moment. But as soon as ME:A launches in the spring, they will have to reassign most of the people working on it to either the Secret IP or DA4. Some will still be working on ME:A DLC, obviously. I'm hopeful that since they've worked out how to run RPGs in Frostbite, they have enough staff to be working on the Secret IP and ME:A concurrently, and they already have a lot of assets from DAI, DA4's development will be relatively quick. Do you think they'd ever launch TWO titles in one year? Like, both the Secret IP and DA4? I'm not sure that they would. I'm also kind of excited about cut scenes in future games since they recently had a PIXAR workshop for the BioWare cinematics team.
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Post by Natashina on Dec 14, 2016 15:21:37 GMT
I wonder how Solas plans on destroying the world..... I've been wondering the same thing but I've a few ideas. 1) The Fade is ever changing. Solas makes a joke (half in jest, all in seriousness) that he could reshape reality at will if the Veil wasn't there. The spirit of Command is very frustrated because it can't do that. As a result, it can't go back to the Fade until she/it fulfills it's purpose. Now, imagine if the ability to reshape reality at will applied to more than spirits and the elves. What if this was something all mages could do? The consequences would be truly catastrophic. For every good hearted mage, there is a whole lot of crazy mages. Not to mention that Tenviter would try take back over the world. So that's a lot of potential for some very bloody and devasting magical battles. 2) The rules of gravity and such don't apply in the Fade like they do in the material realm. According to the Shattered Library, cities fell from the sky when the Veil was created. What if removing the Veil also screws with the laws of physics? Say, a place heavy with lyrium could be manipulated to float. Cory did it to the Temple of Sacred Ashes. So to add to the chaos, there is a chance for things like floating citadels. 3) The way that most of Thedas thinks about spirits. Solas mentioned that the nature of a spirit depends upon what a person expects as well as what they were summoned for. Most people in Thedas aren't aware of the good spirits. They don't know much about Wisdom, or Compassion or Faith. They only know no living body = demon. So you'd get a lot of good spirits possibly getting attacked and we all know how well that turns out. You could also have people digging people in the lore of local spirits and perverting their purpose. Like what happens to Solas' friend Wisdom. 4) The Qunari would take off the kid gloves and go nuts on the world. If they saw magic and spirits everywhere, they'd want to stop it at all costs. So to add to everything else, you have the most technologically advanced race declaring war on the world. 5) Then you'd got whatever might happen if the Veil comes down related to the Titans. Devasting earthquakes happen when the Breach is active and it took one of it's "children" coming back to it to calm it down. Perhaps with no Veil it could mean a period of quakes that shatter the ground apart. The whole Titan thing is a bit too much of a mystery for now though. 6) As far as I can tell, demons have always existed. Those demons if freed from the constraints of the Veil would cause a lot of destruction in their wake. Demons are a lot more interested in mortals than spirits are. They'd be quick to take advantage of the situation. That's how I think Solas' plan could spell doom for present-day Thedas. It doesn't mean it'll come to pass that way if the Veil is removed, but I can see Solas thinking along those lines when he talks to the IQ in Trespasser.
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Current Location: Dathomir
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Prime Posts: 24,721
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Post by lynroy on Dec 14, 2016 16:03:52 GMT
Something entertaining that happened while I was doing IHW. I noticed Solas's coattails moving behind Dorian. They kept right on moving around the room.
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Moondreamer
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Writing is hard. Drawing is harder. I need to do more of both.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Moondreamer
Writing is hard. Drawing is harder. I need to do more of both.
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moondreamer
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Moondreamer on Dec 14, 2016 16:20:27 GMT
I wonder how Solas plans on destroying the world..... I've been wondering the same thing but I've a few ideas. 1) The Fade is ever changing. Solas makes a joke (half in jest, all in seriousness) that he could reshape reality at will if the Veil wasn't there. The spirit of Command is very frustrated because it can't do that. As a result, it can't go back to the Fade until she/it fulfills it's purpose. Now, imagine if the ability to reshape reality at will applied to more than spirits and the elves. What if this was something all mages could do? The consequences would be truly catastrophic. For every good hearted mage, there is a whole lot of crazy mages. Not to mention that Tenviter would try take back over the world. So that's a lot of potential for some very bloody and devasting magical battles. 2) The rules of gravity and such don't apply in the Fade like they do in the material realm. According to the Shattered Library, cities fell from the sky when the Veil was created. What if removing the Veil also screws with the laws of physics? Say, a place heavy with lyrium could be manipulated to float. Cory did it to the Temple of Sacred Ashes. So to add to the chaos, there is a chance for things like floating citadels. 3) The way that most of Thedas thinks about spirits. Solas mentioned that the nature of a spirit depends upon what a person expects as well as what they were summoned for. Most people in Thedas aren't aware of the good spirits. They don't know much about Wisdom, or Compassion or Faith. They only know no living body = demon. So you'd get a lot of good spirits possibly getting attacked and we all know how well that turns out. You could also have people digging people in the lore of local spirits and perverting their purpose. Like what happens to Solas' friend Wisdom. 4) The Qunari would take off the kid gloves and go nuts on the world. If they saw magic and spirits everywhere, they'd want to stop it at all costs. So to add to everything else, you have the most technologically advanced race declaring war on the world. 5) Then you'd got whatever might happen if the Veil comes down related to the Titans. Devasting earthquakes happen when the Breach is active and it took one of it's "children" coming back to it to calm it down. Perhaps with no Veil it could mean a period of quakes that shatter the ground apart. The whole Titan thing is a bit too much of a mystery for now though. 6) As far as I can tell, demons have always existed. Those demons if freed from the constraints of the Veil would cause a lot of destruction in their wake. Demons are a lot more interested in mortals than spirits are. They'd be quick to take advantage of the situation. That's how I think Solas' plan could spell doom for present-day Thedas. It doesn't mean it'll come to pass that way if the Veil is removed, but I can see Solas thinking along those lines when he talks to the IQ in Trespasser. To that chaos, I would possibly add one more option: With the raising of the veil, the majority of people, elves certainly but quite possibly humans too (and the Kossith/Qunari if they already were around) lost their access to magic. Solas compares the people of the modern Thedas to Tranquil. Well, we know from Asunder what happens to a Tranquil when he's suddenly made whole again. The sudden influx of feelings and magic renders him unstable and quite mad (although perhaps things could have gotten better if he'd survived long enough to adapt). Imagine this happening on a world-wide scale. And even if the effect isn't quite as pronounced, since people aren't exactly Tranquil, whatever Solas might think of them, everyone's relationship to dreams and Fade would suddenly change and heighten. And those are people who have been thought all their lives to fear both. That would cause instant panic and madness in some portion of the population at the very least. So yeah, even if dropping the veil wouldn't just kill everyone (and I doubt that would happen), the resulting chaos would be very bad for a lot of people and it would be a long time before things quieted down into a new normal again. Last time something like this happened, it led to the most advanced civilzation of the time to fall and the new human Tevinter to rise from its ashes. Who knows what would happen this time around.
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Post by close2myheart on Dec 14, 2016 16:29:26 GMT
Elvhenan part II, New Beginnings (if most of the Evanuris died) Elvhenan part II, Here We Go Again (if most Evanuris survived) .. or Rise of the [insert race name here] ... sorry can't help it. Dumb idea just pops up and got over powered by the need to post
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