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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 20:25:38 GMT
Oh, you mean Merril's "Dalish sensibilities" that make her work on possessed mirror and who goes against her clans'? You have to accept that some of those things you view as "universally Dalish" are either limited to an individual or a specific clan. They are established to differ between one another since DAO, that's just it. The Eluvian Merrill works on isn't "possessed". There's also no cultural standard when it comes to constructing an Eluvian because it's not something modern Dalish have had to deal with; it's part of the history of their ancestors. ...What do "cultural standards" have with the whole situation, when Merril trying to fix the mirror was an issue in the first place, that gets her Keeper possessed and her clan potentially killed? You're intentionally omitting my main point. Again. The fact that his elven friend believed in the Maker and fully supported Drakon's expansionism DOESN'T change the fact that neither the "Andrastian standards" of mage treatment or the Dalish tribes have changed during those 800 years.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 28, 2017 20:33:19 GMT
I'm sensing the temperature rising in this thread, If there's a separate topic or two-way dialogue that needs to happen, can we finish it up, or take it into a separate thread, please. thanks very much
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 20:39:10 GMT
The Eluvian Merrill built isn't "possessed". There's also no cultural standard when it comes to constructing an Eluvian because it's not something modern Dalish have had to deal with; it's part of the history of their ancestors. ...What do "cultural standards" have with the whole situation, when Merril trying to fix the mirror was an issue in the first place, that gets her Keeper possessed and her clan potentially killed? Marethari and Merrill disagreed about the construction of the Eluvian. That's not the same thing as a cultural standard of the Dalish clans. Also, Marethari became possessed because she intentionally let Audacity free. Drakon had an elven friend who believed in the Maker and fully supported Drakon expanding the Orlesian Empire (as per dialogue with the qunari protagonist) and converting everyone to the Andrastian faith (as per dialogue with the human protagonist). You're intentionally omitting my main point. Again. The fact that his elven friend believed in the Maker and fully supported Drakon's expansionism DOESN'T change the fact that neither the "Andrastian standards" of mage treatment or the Dalish tribes have changed during those 800 years. You used Drakon's friendship with Ameridan as an example. I pointed out that Amerian believed in the Maker and supported Drakon's ambitions. It's not ignoring your point for me to address that it's not quite really the example you were making it out to be. With respect to your earlier post, pointing to a shift in the move from an autonomous kingdom to nomadic clans isn't really the best illustration of making an argument that the Dalish should have the same views on mages as Andrastians. I would have delved into that further, but I would simply be repeating myself at this point.
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Post by Rynnju on Jan 28, 2017 20:39:53 GMT
So how about that Solas? What a guy! What an elf! What a wolf!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 20:40:06 GMT
You guys could at least throw Solas' name or a pretty screenshot in your rants somewhere.
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Post by Natashina on Jan 28, 2017 20:40:41 GMT
<mod mode> This is getting a little too far off topic. We should get this a little more related to Solas himself.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 20:41:35 GMT
<mod mode> This is getting a little too far off topic. We should get this a little more related to Solas himself. Fair enough.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jan 28, 2017 20:52:37 GMT
You guys could at least throw Solas' name or a pretty screenshot in your rants somewhere. I was talking about DAI (without spoilers) with one of my friends who hasn't played DA2 or DAI yet but wants to someday - she's been sidetracked by having two small boys and being REALLY into spinning wool these days - in the chat room we hang out in sometime before Christmas and I started talking about how attractive a character I found Solas to be. To demonstrate, I posted some links to nice pictures of him so she and others who were getting pulled into the conversation could have a look. They were all "I don't see how he is attractive." Perhaps I should have linked to this gif. That saunter of his, mmf. And normally the way people walk and stuff doesn't move me much, but with his mind and poetic speech and all - stuff I couldn't easily tell them about... Ah, *sigh*.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 20:53:47 GMT
You guys could at least throw Solas' name or a pretty screenshot in your rants somewhere. To be fair, I brought up Merrill as an arcane adviser having philosophical discussions with Solas in that hypothetical scenario, and I did voice my opinion that the schism between the Evanuris and Fen'Harel would be better suited as one where neither side is lopsided as a villain, but rather as an ideological schism that pits the two against one another. Any pictures I attempted would be friendship Solas and (my male, Latino-style) Revas. Or Solas, Revas, and Merrill. Maybe an Alan Moore styled "From Hell" contrast between the two - Revas in the Wounded Coast with the Dalish clans and visiting Merrill at the alienage in contrast to Solas building up his army and reflecting on his friendship with Revas.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 20:54:51 GMT
Midnight, you have a wonderful tendency to not read posts fully and then pounce on what you don't like. What I was saying with regard to Ameridan was not that I wanted the Dalish to be totally absolved of all blame but for someone to defend their point of view. Now if you read the On-line Core Rule Book issued by Bioware, which is based off the lore that came out originally at the time of DAO, it quite clearly states that the accusation that the Dalish did nothing to assist with the 2nd Blight only comes from the Chantry/Orlesian side of things. That is also true of the timeline in WoT. The Core Rule Book even suggests that the fact there is no elven testimony on the matter of the Dalish alleged indifference to the fate of Montsimmard may be because it is actually a falsehood spread by their enemies. It says: "That the truth cannot be known is not merely sad but suspicious". This is the sort of balanced approach we had in DAO. Then we had a specific story given to us in DAO by the Dalish where a clan was said to be in the region of the Anderfels aiding against the Blight. Okay, aside form the fact that we very well know that we can't treat any single codex or tome of lore like "World Of Thedas" or rulebooks as they're accurate or unbiased... how is Ameridan and Telana's mission to stop Hakkon (succesful I might add), which directly helps with effort against 2nd Blight, NOT a significant elven contribution on its own? Ameridan can't be the only elf in the Kingdom who felt the way he did - it's simply possible that their faction hasn't been as numerous or been overruled. Such things happen. And since Ameridan's fate confirms that the Chantry is willing to falsify the truth about figures as significant as last Inquisitor and wipe any mention of Telana, how does it rule out that the same didn't happen to any attempts of other elves or even whole clans to help with the Blight, even if they were on individual or clan level? Whether you "don't want elves to be absolved form all the blame" or simply want to "defend their point of view" doesn't change the fact that you're either ignoring things in favor of profoundly negative interpretation, or think that Ameridan's heroism and sacrifice is not a suitable defense in itself, that bolsters elves and embarrasses both the Chantry and Orlais. Right... because it can't be nuanced - either Drakon has to be a tyrant, or the Dalish have to be shown to be at fault. It can't be more gray than that - it's all black and white Nevermind that mixed records exist on Drakon. Nevermind that he associated himself with old Inquisition, that has been portrayed in not necessarily the best light, to a point where Inquisitor is like "Who though that calling us 'Inquisition" is a good idea???" Nope - if Drakon is shown to have a shred of nuance and Dalish are shown to have made an error, it is "sickening". *sigh*
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jan 28, 2017 20:55:35 GMT
You guys could at least throw Solas' name or a pretty screenshot in your rants somewhere. To be fair, I brought up Merrill as an arcane adviser having philosophical discussions with Solas in that hypothetical scenario, and I did voice my opinion that the schism between the Evanuris and Fen'Harel would be better suited as one where neither side is lopsided as a villain, but rather as an ideological schism that pits the two against one another. Any pictures I attempted would be friendship Solas and (my male, Latino-style) Revas. Or Solas, Revas, and Merrill. Maybe an Alan Moore styled "From Hell" contrast between the two - Revas in the Wounded Coast with the Dalish clans and visiting Merrill at the alienage with Solas building up his army and reflecting on his friendship with Revas. Friendship Solas and Latino-style male Lavellans are both very much welcome in this thread, as far as I'm concerned!
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 20:57:41 GMT
To be fair, I brought up Merrill as an arcane adviser having philosophical discussions with Solas in that hypothetical scenario, and I did voice my opinion that the schism between the Evanuris and Fen'Harel would be better suited as one where neither side is lopsided as a villain, but rather as an ideological schism that pits the two against one another. Any pictures I attempted would be friendship Solas and (my male, Latino-style) Revas. Or Solas, Revas, and Merrill. Maybe an Alan Moore styled "From Hell" contrast between the two - Revas in the Wounded Coast with the Dalish clans and visiting Merrill at the alienage with Solas building up his army and reflecting on his friendship with Revas. Friendship Solas and Latino-style male Lavellans are both very much welcome in this thread, as far as I'm concerned! Thank you! If only I could draw...
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Post by Rynnju on Jan 28, 2017 20:58:09 GMT
You guys could at least throw Solas' name or a pretty screenshot in your rants somewhere. Something about this armor majorly bugs me. It's in the legs. The anatomy just looks...wrong.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 21:03:52 GMT
So how about that Solas? What a guy! What an elf! What a wolf! If you'll find me anything Solas-related that we haven't talked about 100 times already, then I'll gladly jump at the opportunity I'm just having a very difficult time finding anything - and those things I find, are either out of left field or potentially contentious (plus, I have no guarantee that it won't end up with the unfair treatment of the Dalish/elves again... as it has a certain tendency to bounce back again for some reason).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 21:13:32 GMT
So how about that Solas? What a guy! What an elf! What a wolf! If you'll find me anything Solas-related that we haven't talked about 100 times already, then I'll gladly jump at the opportunity I'm just having a very difficult time finding anything - and those things I find, are either out of left field or potentially contentious (plus, I have no guarantee that it won't end up with the unfair treatment of the Dalish/elves again... as it has a certain tendency to bounce back again for some reason). Perhaps we need a dedicated Righteous Elven Rage thread? XD
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 21:16:11 GMT
If you'll find me anything Solas-related that we haven't talked about 100 times already, then I'll gladly jump at the opportunity I'm just having a very difficult time finding anything - and those things I find, are either out of left field or potentially contentious (plus, I have no guarantee that it won't end up with the unfair treatment of the Dalish/elves again... as it has a certain tendency to bounce back again for some reason). Perhaps we need a dedicated Righteous Elven Rage thread? XD That sounds like young Solas's garage band name
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 21:19:05 GMT
If you'll find me anything Solas-related that we haven't talked about 100 times already, then I'll gladly jump at the opportunity I'm just having a very difficult time finding anything - and those things I find, are either out of left field or potentially contentious (plus, I have no guarantee that it won't end up with the unfair treatment of the Dalish/elves again... as it has a certain tendency to bounce back again for some reason). Perhaps we need a dedicated Righteous Elven Rage thread? XD I think it's normal that discussion has turned towards at the elves, at times, because Solas is an elven character who is embarking on his current crusade because of the current situation in Thedas involving the elven people, and before the transition to the new BSN this was one of the few places where elven fans could actually discuss elves without being harassed. That there is no new material concerning Solas is likely why it's much easier to delve into certain elven aspects of the narrative.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 21:26:34 GMT
Perhaps we need a dedicated Righteous Elven Rage thread? XD I think it's normal that discussion has turned towards at the elves, at times, because Solas is an elven character who is embarking on his current crusade because of the current situation in Thedas involving the elven people, and before the transition to the new BSN this was one of the few places where elven fans could actually discuss elves without being harassed. That there is no new material concerning Solas is likely why it's much easier to delve into certain elven aspects of the narrative. Welp, I've proposed once already that Blanketfort 2.0 could be called "Six degrees of Solas"... because Solas is such a central figure to the whole story and universe, so far there's not a single aspect of it that won't tie to him in one way or another. This is why his thread is so massive in the first place - it wasn't that long ago when we discussed Sten and Calpernia after all. It's true though that sometimes things tend to meander way too much.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 28, 2017 21:36:29 GMT
The funny thing is, until DAI I was far more a city elf at heart and did have some suspicions as to how the elven "nobility" got away at the fall of the Dales but the majority ended up being herded into alienages. I had my doubts about the Dalish lore and thought it was rather convenient that "all our ancestors were mages" so mages were closer to what we once were and therefore held in higher esteem in the Dalish to the extent that a clan could not possibly be without one.
But after Masked Empire in particular and then the constant criticism aimed at the Dalish in DAI, with the rather lame "all clans are different" when my Lavellan tried to defend their culture, I have become very pro-Dalish and feel the need to defend them at every opportunity, probably because my character wasn't allowed to do that properly in game. Also I fear they are going to be sacrificed to the plot next game. Hopefully I will be proven wrong and you will be proven right and the writers will continue to be as fair to them as you claim.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 28, 2017 21:57:22 GMT
Okay, I'll change back to discussing Solas. I was looking again on You Tube at the reaction of Solas and Cole to a mage Inquisitor taking the Necromancer spec and I found it interesting that this seems to be one area that the two of them are in disagreement about. Solas says that it is okay provided you are not harming any intelligent spirits, which it would seem from what Cole says that you aren't. However, Cole seems upset that you are harming spiritual essence that has the potential to be a fully formed intelligent spirit, so while wisps might not be actual "people", they are potential people and therefore living entities, entitled to respect and consideration. Then later we learn that Mythal spent time as the wisp of an ancient being, so at that point did she not count as intelligent? Had some necromancer come along and shredded her essence as Cole sees it, would that have been an end of her?
It is strange but the distinction that Solas makes between wisps and intelligent spirits almost seems the same as the distinction he draws between modern elves (and other races) and the elves before the Veil.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 22:14:17 GMT
Okay, I'll change back to discussing Solas. I was looking again on You Tube at the reaction of Solas and Cole to a mage Inquisitor taking the Necromancer spec and I found it interesting that this seems to be one area that the two of them are in disagreement about. Solas says that it is okay provided you are not harming any intelligent spirits, which it would seem from what Cole says that you aren't. However, Cole seems upset that you are harming spiritual essence that has the potential to be a fully formed intelligent spirit, so while wisps might not be actual "people", they are potential people and therefore living entities, entitled to respect and consideration. Then later we learn that Mythal spent time as the wisp of an ancient being, so at that point did she not count as intelligent? Had some necromancer come along and shredded her essence as Cole sees it, would that have been an end of her? It is strange but the distinction that Solas makes between wisps and intelligent spirits almost seems the same as the distinction he draws between modern elves (and other races) and the elves before the Veil. I agree with Cole here. They have the potential to be more than they are. I never felt comfortable with that specialization (with Revas). As for elves, I think Solas made that distinction early on (given his tranquil comment), but he seems to reconsider his stance (to a degree) on modern elves when the Inquisitor has earned his friendship.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 22:23:48 GMT
The funny thing is, until DAI I was far more a city elf at heart and did have some suspicions as to how the elven "nobility" got away at the fall of the Dales but the majority ended up being herded into alienages. I had my doubts about the Dalish lore and thought it was rather convenient that "all our ancestors were mages" so mages were closer to what we once were and therefore held in higher esteem in the Dalish to the extent that a clan could not possibly be without one. But after Masked Empire in particular and then the constant criticism aimed at the Dalish in DAI, with the rather lame "all clans are different" when my Lavellan tried to defend their culture, I have become very pro-Dalish and feel the need to defend them at every opportunity, probably because my character wasn't allowed to do that properly in game. Okay, if I understand correctly... by your admission, you weren't much convinced by Dalish until DAI. By your admission there were problems with them prior to DAI that kept you out of fully supporting them. ... And when evidence kept mounting that "hey, perhaps they have more problems?" or "hey, perhaps they have as many problems as anyone else?" or "hey, maaaaybe that's not the way to go with certain things?" ...you became increasingly pro-Dalish? It's an... unusual admission, I have to say. Not that I try deny it to you, I just find it unusual. Considering that even now people are arguing whether some things are portrayed fairly or not, no matter what Bioware will do, someone WILL be unhappy. I think that's to be expected. I myself however am waiting for more information to come. Still, I can't help but to think that they're indeed going to be sacrificed to the plot of next game... along with everyone else. I say that plainly because I have yet to find group in Thedas to have convinced me that "Their Way Is The Way To Go". Each group has problems, more or less severe, and I see no way forward if most of them won't modify their stances. I think it's a possibility we'd likely end up picking out what worked, and discarding all of them for the sake of something else.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 28, 2017 22:41:59 GMT
Okay, I'll change back to discussing Solas. I was looking again on You Tube at the reaction of Solas and Cole to a mage Inquisitor taking the Necromancer spec and I found it interesting that this seems to be one area that the two of them are in disagreement about. Solas says that it is okay provided you are not harming any intelligent spirits, which it would seem from what Cole says that you aren't. However, Cole seems upset that you are harming spiritual essence that has the potential to be a fully formed intelligent spirit, so while wisps might not be actual "people", they are potential people and therefore living entities, entitled to respect and consideration. Then later we learn that Mythal spent time as the wisp of an ancient being, so at that point did she not count as intelligent? Had some necromancer come along and shredded her essence as Cole sees it, would that have been an end of her? I don't really think Mythal means she's a 'wisp of an ancient being' in a sense that she's your typical wisp, but in terms of how little power she has now compared to 'old' Mythal. I do agree however that it does seem that the 'evolution' of spirit seems to start with a wisp (and we do know from "Here Comes The Abyss" that a 'wisp' can be a single memory), and continues on as wisp gains... dunno, something. Probably interest in certain concept or aspect. And things then just continue to 'build up', as they proceed with - as Solas called it - peaceful semi-existence, until spirits gain enough of strength of will to form personality. Where it goes then gets muddied - but considering that Cole can become fully human, which likely means human with soul, it has interesting implications. Eh, I don't really think that's the case. I simply think Cole and Solas have different ideas about what and how potential spirit/life form can form based on their experience. And considering that Solas knows his spirits (in fact, even in a propaganda piece that smears him, the Evanuris do acknowledge the fact that Solas is an expert on the field even at that time), while Cole himself was unaware that spirits like Wisdom existed, I'm inclined to believe Solas isn't necessarily, um... dismissive? of wisps. Likely there's more to the process that turns wisps from "potential to become a life form" to actually realizing that potential. Also, considering that wisp is basically a step away from primordial goo and merely has a potential to become life ain't for Solas what modern people are. For him, Thedosians are realized people (add to that all his mentions of spirits that reside within) - but they lack something of essence to realize further; that something likely being their conscious connection to the Fade. ... Also - this is completely out of the left field, but I can't help but to think that nugs are Theda's equivalent of wisps I have no idea why I think that way - it's just this bizarre thought that's stuck to the back of my brain.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Jan 28, 2017 23:27:04 GMT
To be fair, I brought up Merrill as an arcane adviser having philosophical discussions with Solas in that hypothetical scenario, and I did voice my opinion that the schism between the Evanuris and Fen'Harel would be better suited as one where neither side is lopsided as a villain, but rather as an ideological schism that pits the two against one another. Any pictures I attempted would be friendship Solas and (my male, Latino-style) Revas. Or Solas, Revas, and Merrill. Maybe an Alan Moore styled "From Hell" contrast between the two - Revas in the Wounded Coast with the Dalish clans and visiting Merrill at the alienage with Solas building up his army and reflecting on his friendship with Revas. Friendship Solas and Latino-style male Lavellans are both very much welcome in this thread, as far as I'm concerned! Well, if I were to draw some pictures, or if someone with artistic talent were to draw some... I would draw Revas using the Skyhold Dalish allies to help thwart the Starkhaven invasion of Kirkwall with images of Solas and Cole building a friendship with one another (I've presumed he's a younger spirit of Compassion, as opposed to the Spirit of Wisdom whom Solas befriended). The Skyhold clans settling the Wounded Coast and Sundermount, with Comte Revas and the Dalish being treated as heroes by the Kirkwall locals. Dalish healers helping the sick in Darktown, hunters dispatching bandits, and Revas trying to adjust to being recognized as a noble, with Merrill helping him. I'd contrast with Fen'Harel building up his network of spies from the disenfranchised elves across Thedas and reminiscing over the loss of Asha'bellanar and his agent Felassan for the sake of the Plan (unlike the Cylons, he actually has a plan). As Solas says to Lysas, "Sometimes, to achieve the world one desires, one must take regrettable measures." Last would be a hopeful picture of Revas and Merrill at the alienage, helping the community of elves who live there; probably some scenes of Merrill helping Revas cope with the loss of his arm in sharp contrast to Solas, alone, reminiscing on all the lost wonders of the Beyond, like the Vir Dirthara and the other lost wonders that were tied to the Beyond and lost with the construction of the veil, and the wonders of Elvhenan. As Solas once said, "Imagine instead spires of crystal twining through the branches, palaces floating among the clouds. Imagine beings who lived forever, for whom magic was as natural as breathing. That is what was lost."
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CapricornSun
N3
Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
PSN: CapricornSun83
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Sept 18, 2017 14:52:54 GMT
2,563
CapricornSun
Currently in D&D RPing hell and I love it! *v* <3
361
August 2016
capricornsun
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
CapricornSun83
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Post by CapricornSun on Jan 29, 2017 7:20:47 GMT
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