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Post by javeart on Feb 6, 2017 10:36:58 GMT
I've been considering take this reply directly to the new thread but it's not really about the protrayal of the dalish in DAI. I know it's a tangent though, but I don't intend to go on a deep debate about it anyway, just one comment (...) So far as the elves were concerned, both Mythal and Solas do have a lot to answer for because as Lavellan points out, they having been crying out for years for someone to guide them and no one answered. They had to make the best of it having been abandoned by the ancient powers. Solas could have stuck around after he freed them and tried to help them to a better future but instead he just recoiled in horror at what he had done and went to sleep with the intention of reversing it. So they were left at the mercy of whoever would lead them. It would seem that initially this was most likely the followers of the other gods, who encouraged them in isolation while the world moved on. Then the world in the form of Tevinter discovered them again and their leaders led them to their doom and ultimately slavery. I think the elven slaves and their descendants have been pretty badly let down for millennia but that is just my take on the whole thing. Personally, I can understand how the elves could blame Solas for what happened to them, particularly if they don't know (or it turns out that it's not true) that he did what he did to avoid a bigger disaster and considering we don't if he could have done something else to help them. That's one thing, but I have to say that I deeply dislke picturing the elves lost without guidance, a little as if they were children. I'd rather seeing them fighting to find their place in the world on their own... I know that so far that didn't work very well , but I feel very about the idea of them needing their gods or some god-like creatures to rescue them, leading them, or anything like that... If something good could come from the creation of the veil it should have been precisely being free of all that, IMO For me, if Solas and Mythal can and want to help the elves because they feel they share a cause with them, that's great, charity-like help it's less great but ok too I guess, but I don't feel like they have to help them because they're resposible for them. I don't thinK they have anything to answer for, not in this regard, and I don't say this because I want to justify them, but because in my eyes it diminish the elves. Just how I feel about this:P
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Post by Auirel on Feb 6, 2017 11:36:34 GMT
Does anyone know if there has been an Arlathvhen since the Fifth Blight? If its yet to come it might be an opportunity for the truth of the ancient elves to be revealed to all the clans at once. It might even be a plot point in the next game, you have to convince all the clans that you are telling the truth. Maybe Solas' agents are there trying to get them to join him and you're there to get them to join your side instead.
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Post by halla on Feb 6, 2017 12:46:17 GMT
Does anyone know if there has been an Arlathvhen since the Fifth Blight? If its yet to come it might be an opportunity for the truth of the ancient elves to be revealed to all the clans at once. It might even be a plot point in the next game, you have to convince all the clans that you are telling the truth. Maybe Solas' agents are there trying to get them to join him and you're there to get them to join your side instead. That would be neat if Inquisitor was only elf, because I don't think they would allow human or dwarf there? I don't have that much time to search adn read everything and I prefer to play more than that when I have time so excuse me if I am wrong. But that would be interesting. And if elfs don't believe Fen'harels agent, imagine Solas showing there in the middle like in the Tresspasser. "I guess you have questions."... ...which reminds me of (source on image) And, erm, about all them kind of off-topics:
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 6, 2017 14:56:21 GMT
Does anyone know if there has been an Arlathvhen since the Fifth Blight? If its yet to come it might be an opportunity for the truth of the ancient elves to be revealed to all the clans at once. It might even be a plot point in the next game, you have to convince all the clans that you are telling the truth. Maybe Solas' agents are there trying to get them to join him and you're there to get them to join your side instead. With southern elves marching somewhere to place unknown and us not knowing whether elves in other places have disappeared as well? I have hard time believing that convincing elves on Arlathven would be a plot point. That's not to say that there won't be any (modern) elves there or some convincing to do - I just think that we'll move with the plot a few years further and at that point either the cat will be out of the bag... or it will be the opposite and at best Inquisition will reach out to individuals, rather than whole groups or clans. Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas.
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 6, 2017 17:08:38 GMT
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Post by ddj on Feb 6, 2017 22:38:55 GMT
I would suspect that BW does not have everything figured out which if you think on it is how history works in real life. People write from subjective viewpoints, their own experiences coloring their thinking. For years it was held as canon that Richard III murdered the princes in the tower. Then their bodies were discovered and, low and behold, from forensic evidence it appears that Henry VII had them murdered. Lore does change as facts become evident. If you take all of the Dalish lore in DAO and DA2 there is not a single mention of the elves being virtual slaves to their "gods" who were real people. The lore change enables a richer and more varied world.
We have got to get BW on the ball about DA's 4th installment. Perhaps a Divine March on their compound.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 6, 2017 23:41:26 GMT
I would suspect that BW does not have everything figured out which if you think on it is how history works in real life. People write from subjective viewpoints, their own experiences coloring their thinking. For years it was held as canon that Richard III murdered the princes in the tower. Then their bodies were discovered and, low and behold, from forensic evidence it appears that Henry VII had them murdered. Lore does change as facts become evident. If you take all of the Dalish lore in DAO and DA2 there is not a single mention of the elves being virtual slaves to their "gods" who were real people. The lore change enables a richer and more varied world. We have got to get BW on the ball about DA's 4th installment. Perhaps a Divine March on their compound. No. HELL. NO .
It's comments like this that EA uses to try and justify shipping products before they are ready. Do you want a game that didn't live up to it's potential, given how much was cut from Dragon Age 2 to make it's deadline? Do you want the entire series nearly ruined, like in Mass Effect 3's rushed ending?
If a longer wait means a better game, I say give Bioware all the time they need.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 7, 2017 0:07:33 GMT
Does anyone know if there has been an Arlathvhen since the Fifth Blight? If its yet to come it might be an opportunity for the truth of the ancient elves to be revealed to all the clans at once. It might even be a plot point in the next game, you have to convince all the clans that you are telling the truth. Maybe Solas' agents are there trying to get them to join him and you're there to get them to join your side instead. With southern elves marching somewhere to place unknown and us not knowing whether elves in other places have disappeared as well? I have hard time believing that convincing elves on Arlathven would be a plot point. That's not to say that there won't be any (modern) elves there or some convincing to do - I just think that we'll move with the plot a few years further and at that point either the cat will be out of the bag... or it will be the opposite and at best Inquisition will reach out to individuals, rather than whole groups or clans. Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas.That depends on whether you choose to keep the Inquisition under the Divine or disband the Inquisition. If you choose to keep the Inquisition you are told that you'll have more resources but be more open to being infiltrated by Solas' agents. Since in this scenario, you become another military arm of the Divine beyond the Templars, I am reasonably certain that the Inquisition will not be disappearing from the public eye. Should you choose to disband the Inquisition then your statement stands.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2017 0:27:03 GMT
With southern elves marching somewhere to place unknown and us not knowing whether elves in other places have disappeared as well? I have hard time believing that convincing elves on Arlathven would be a plot point. That's not to say that there won't be any (modern) elves there or some convincing to do - I just think that we'll move with the plot a few years further and at that point either the cat will be out of the bag... or it will be the opposite and at best Inquisition will reach out to individuals, rather than whole groups or clans. Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas.That depends on whether you choose to keep the Inquisition under the Divine or disband the Inquisition. If you choose to keep the Inquisition you are told that you'll have more resources but be more open to being infiltrated by Solas' agents. Since in this scenario, you become another military arm of the Divine beyond the Templars, I am reasonably certain that the Inquisition will not be disappearing from the public eye. Should you choose to disband the Inquisition then your statement stands. I wouldn't say such is the case - I'm pretty sure not that many know that the Divine (if it's Cass or Leliana) has secret meetings with Inquisitor where they're planning to go to Tevinter in order to find people that "Solas doesn't know". It's the same with Inquisition as Divine's personal guard. There's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows. And I'm not saying so for no reason: no matter whether we disband Inquisition or not, the Inquisitor "supposedly retires" from active duty, yet multiple epilogue cards are virtually the same as when we disband and suggest that they're still active, still seen in multiple places and are still involved with things that largely elude public attention.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 7, 2017 1:10:25 GMT
That depends on whether you choose to keep the Inquisition under the Divine or disband the Inquisition. If you choose to keep the Inquisition you are told that you'll have more resources but be more open to being infiltrated by Solas' agents. Since in this scenario, you become another military arm of the Divine beyond the Templars, I am reasonably certain that the Inquisition will not be disappearing from the public eye. Should you choose to disband the Inquisition then your statement stands. I wouldn't say such is the case - I'm pretty sure not that many know that the Divine (if it's Cass or Leliana) has secret meetings with Inquisitor where they're planning to go to Tevinter in order to find people that "Solas doesn't know". It's the same with Inquisition as Divine's personal guard. There's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows. And I'm not saying so for no reason: no matter whether we disband Inquisition or not, the Inquisitor "supposedly retires" from active duty, yet multiple epilogue cards are virtually the same as when we disband and suggest that they're still active, still seen in multiple places and are still involved with things that largely elude public attention. The general public may not know about the Divine's secret meetings with the Inquisitor, but that might be because they have to maintain a facade of not going after Solas. I agree with you that that work is being done in secrecy. But I do not agree with you that the Inquisition goes out of the public eye if you keep it together under the Divine. There are visual cues with the post-epilogue scene; everyone's in Inquisition formal uniform during the secret meeting if you kept the Inquisition under the Divine, but Leliana and Cass are not in formal uniform if you disband the Inquisition. Why be in uniform if you didn't travel openly as members of the Inquisition to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held? It doesn't make sense that they'd travel incognito and then switch into their dress uniforms to hang out with each other. I'm pretty sure the Inquisition is still very much in the public eye if you chose not to disband it.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2017 1:46:11 GMT
I wouldn't say such is the case - I'm pretty sure not that many know that the Divine (if it's Cass or Leliana) has secret meetings with Inquisitor where they're planning to go to Tevinter in order to find people that "Solas doesn't know". It's the same with Inquisition as Divine's personal guard. There's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows. And I'm not saying so for no reason: no matter whether we disband Inquisition or not, the Inquisitor "supposedly retires" from active duty, yet multiple epilogue cards are virtually the same as when we disband and suggest that they're still active, still seen in multiple places and are still involved with things that largely elude public attention. The general public may not know about the Divine's secret meetings with the Inquisitor, but that might be because they have to maintain a facade of not going after Solas. I agree with you that that work is being done in secrecy. But I do not agree with you that the Inquisition goes out of the public eye if you keep it together under the Divine. There are visual cues with the post-epilogue scene; everyone's in Inquisition formal uniform during the secret meeting if you kept the Inquisition under the Divine, but Leliana and Cass are not in formal uniform if you disband the Inquisition. Why be in uniform if you didn't travel openly as members of the Inquisition to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held? It doesn't make sense that they'd travel incognito and then switch into their dress uniforms to hang out with each other. I'm pretty sure the Inquisition is still very much in the public eye if you chose not to disband it. ... But I did not say that Inquisition goes out of the public eye entirely I specifically said - "there's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows". I also said that Inquisitor is not in the public eye (or at least they show up publicly enough only to divert attention from what they're actually doing - hence uniforms) - not Inquisition as a whole. Though them wearing uniforms (a visual que more likely there to show that Inquisition is not disbanded) doesn't necessarily means that the members of it travel anywhere publicly - after all, if such was the case, the Divine (either Cass or Leliana) would have to be in Divine's robes during their secret meeting. The Inquisition works for her after all, after they become her personal guard - not she for Inquisition. Another thing - I don't think that the dungeon shown at the end of Trespasser is necessarily Haven. It's likely simply a reused set, picked specifically for the crate at the top that let them mirror the shot from beginning of the game. Haven itself is buried after zillions of tons of snow, and with Breach closed and Temple of Sacred Ashes destroyed twice over there's no discernible reason why Inquisition would travel there and uncover the ruins only to have their secret meeting
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 1:51:32 GMT
The general public may not know about the Divine's secret meetings with the Inquisitor, but that might be because they have to maintain a facade of not going after Solas. I agree with you that that work is being done in secrecy. But I do not agree with you that the Inquisition goes out of the public eye if you keep it together under the Divine. There are visual cues with the post-epilogue scene; everyone's in Inquisition formal uniform during the secret meeting if you kept the Inquisition under the Divine, but Leliana and Cass are not in formal uniform if you disband the Inquisition. Why be in uniform if you didn't travel openly as members of the Inquisition to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held? It doesn't make sense that they'd travel incognito and then switch into their dress uniforms to hang out with each other. I'm pretty sure the Inquisition is still very much in the public eye if you chose not to disband it. ... But I did not say that Inquisition goes out of the public eye entirely I specifically said - "there's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows". I also said that Inquisitor is not in the public eye (or at least they show up publicly enough only to divert attention from what they're actually doing - hence uniforms) - not Inquisition as a whole. Though them wearing uniforms (a visual que more likely there to show that Inquisition is not disbanded) doesn't necessarily means that the members of it travel anywhere publicly - after all, if such was the case, the Divine (either Cass or Leliana) would have to be in Divine's robes during their secret meeting. The Inquisition works for her after all, after they become her personal guard - not she for Inquisition. Another thing - I don't think that the dungeon shown at the end of Trespasser is necessarily Haven. It's likely simply a reused set, picked specifically for the crate at the top that let them mirror the shot from beginning of the game. Haven itself is buried after zillions of tons of snow, and with Breach closed and Temple of Sacred Ashes destroyed twice over there's no discernible reason why Inquisition would travel there and uncover the ruins only to have their secret meeting That was part of the plan. It sounds so ludicrous that no one would expect it; just like how the Archdemon didn't expect the warden to run away from it, crossing the whole world to launch a sneak attack from the rear.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 7, 2017 3:07:38 GMT
The general public may not know about the Divine's secret meetings with the Inquisitor, but that might be because they have to maintain a facade of not going after Solas. I agree with you that that work is being done in secrecy. But I do not agree with you that the Inquisition goes out of the public eye if you keep it together under the Divine. There are visual cues with the post-epilogue scene; everyone's in Inquisition formal uniform during the secret meeting if you kept the Inquisition under the Divine, but Leliana and Cass are not in formal uniform if you disband the Inquisition. Why be in uniform if you didn't travel openly as members of the Inquisition to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held? It doesn't make sense that they'd travel incognito and then switch into their dress uniforms to hang out with each other. I'm pretty sure the Inquisition is still very much in the public eye if you chose not to disband it. ... But I did not say that Inquisition goes out of the public eye entirely I specifically said - "there's likely a visible division of it that acts as personal guard and peacekeeping force - while the core works in the shadows". I also said that Inquisitor is not in the public eye (or at least they show up publicly enough only to divert attention from what they're actually doing - hence uniforms) - not Inquisition as a whole. Though them wearing uniforms (a visual que more likely there to show that Inquisition is not disbanded) doesn't necessarily means that the members of it travel anywhere publicly - after all, if such was the case, the Divine (either Cass or Leliana) would have to be in Divine's robes during their secret meeting. The Inquisition works for her after all, after they become her personal guard - not she for Inquisition. Another thing - I don't think that the dungeon shown at the end of Trespasser is necessarily Haven. It's likely simply a reused set, picked specifically for the crate at the top that let them mirror the shot from beginning of the game. Haven itself is buried after zillions of tons of snow, and with Breach closed and Temple of Sacred Ashes destroyed twice over there's no discernible reason why Inquisition would travel there and uncover the ruins only to have their secret meeting It's a typo then! You typed " Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas," and that's what I was going by. And I also am not certain that it is Haven; that's why I typed "...to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held."
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2017 3:12:41 GMT
It's a typo then! You typed " Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas," and that's what I was going by. And I also am not certain that it is Haven; that's why I typed "...to Haven or wherever the meeting is being held." Yeah, I should've probably specified that I meant Inquisitor or - as I've written in 2nd comment - that I mean Inquisition's core (centered around Inquisitor and their new Inner Circle).
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Post by Auirel on Feb 7, 2017 4:52:03 GMT
Does anyone know if there has been an Arlathvhen since the Fifth Blight? If its yet to come it might be an opportunity for the truth of the ancient elves to be revealed to all the clans at once. It might even be a plot point in the next game, you have to convince all the clans that you are telling the truth. Maybe Solas' agents are there trying to get them to join him and you're there to get them to join your side instead. With southern elves marching somewhere to place unknown and us not knowing whether elves in other places have disappeared as well? I have hard time believing that convincing elves on Arlathven would be a plot point. That's not to say that there won't be any (modern) elves there or some convincing to do - I just think that we'll move with the plot a few years further and at that point either the cat will be out of the bag... or it will be the opposite and at best Inquisition will reach out to individuals, rather than whole groups or clans. Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas. Its not all elves though. At the very least some clans won't go, others might. We really don't know at this point. It would be an interesting situation to explore in game.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 7, 2017 5:13:13 GMT
With southern elves marching somewhere to place unknown and us not knowing whether elves in other places have disappeared as well? I have hard time believing that convincing elves on Arlathven would be a plot point. That's not to say that there won't be any (modern) elves there or some convincing to do - I just think that we'll move with the plot a few years further and at that point either the cat will be out of the bag... or it will be the opposite and at best Inquisition will reach out to individuals, rather than whole groups or clans. Inquisition, after all, is shown and alluded to largely disappear from public eye and work in secrecy in order to stop Solas. Its not all elves though. At the very least some clans won't go, others might. We really don't know at this point. It would be an interesting situation to explore in game. As interesting as that situation could theoretically be, I don't really see Inquisition attempting to sway random elves or specifically Dalish elves without them providing organization with something they'd need - and I don't really think we'd be needing sheer numbers anymore. IMO, DA4 will be more about strategy - about obtaining artifacts, discovering places, tracking and obtaining crucial knowledge and steering things from behind, rather than leading at the front. DAI was it in part about strategic alliances and searching or obtaining artifacts or knowledge too - but Inquisition also needed significant army to challenge the one collected by Corypheus. And judging from Inquisitor's actions at the end of Trespasser, we wouldn't be needing one - otherwise they'd be fighting tooth and nail to keep their army, that even as Divine's personal guard is shrank down to more manageable size. Hence the Dalish - or whichever elves we'd be meeting - would have to have something very specific that Inquisition would like to obtain: some sort of knowledge, or an item or perhaps a map to a specific place one clan or another stumbled upon during their journeys. Alternatively, that there'd be someone among them they'd rather see join Inquisition rather than Solas or whoever else. Other than that I don't think Inquisition would be approaching anyone without a good reason to do so.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 7, 2017 6:00:41 GMT
Thought the Blanketfort might like this one... Mark Darrah Retweeted ᴍ ᴏ ʟ ʟ ʏ @hibirds And so the Inquisitor asked, "Who is a good boy?" With a single tear, Solas whispered to himself, "I'm a good boy." @patrickweekes @bioware pbs.twimg.com/media/C4CKMJYXAAIhJOE.jpgPatrick Weekes @patrickweekesI have questions. And concerns. A lot of both, really. Mark Darrah @biomarkdarrahthey're all good elven gods Brent. ... Well...
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 7, 2017 6:20:57 GMT
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Post by Auirel on Feb 7, 2017 7:41:36 GMT
Its not all elves though. At the very least some clans won't go, others might. We really don't know at this point. It would be an interesting situation to explore in game. As interesting as that situation could theoretically be, I don't really see Inquisition attempting to sway random elves or specifically Dalish elves without them providing organization with something they'd need - and I don't really think we'd be needing sheer numbers anymore. IMO, DA4 will be more about strategy - about obtaining artifacts, discovering places, tracking and obtaining crucial knowledge and steering things from behind, rather than leading at the front. DAI was it in part about strategic alliances and searching or obtaining artifacts or knowledge too - but Inquisition also needed significant army to challenge the one collected by Corypheus. And judging from Inquisitor's actions at the end of Trespasser, we wouldn't be needing one - otherwise they'd be fighting tooth and nail to keep their army, that even as Divine's personal guard is shrank down to more manageable size. Hence the Dalish - or whichever elves we'd be meeting - would have to have something very specific that Inquisition would like to obtain: some sort of knowledge, or an item or perhaps a map to a specific place one clan or another stumbled upon during their journeys. Alternatively, that there'd be someone among them they'd rather see join Inquisition rather than Solas or whoever else. Other than that I don't think Inquisition would be approaching anyone without a good reason to do so. No I never believed that DA:4 is going to be about leading an army. I shouldn't have said that you would be convincing them to join your side, I was tired when I wrote that and my thoughts were mostly mush. But you wouldn't want Solas gaining more numbers to his side. I don't think an army is going to stop Solas (if it comes to that). If the Qunari's effrots are anything to go by, it would just fail miserably, and that was mostly by himself. More numbers to Solas' side will just make it harder for the Inquisition to operate stealthily, so it would be worth the time to stop support flowing to him. There was also a point that someone made earlier about how they felt about the elves having one of their "gods" come and lead them again, and how much they disagreed with that storywise. What I was trying to get at (which I didn't really explain properly, or at all) was that when the Arlathvhen came up, it could be a event that changes the direction in which the Dalish were going and you could have them focus more on the future of their culture, without having to rely upon their "gods" to help them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 8:11:20 GMT
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Auirel
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Post by Auirel on Feb 7, 2017 10:52:04 GMT
Proof that Solas is actually Mythal's son.
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CapricornSun
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Post by CapricornSun on Feb 8, 2017 4:56:48 GMT
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 8, 2017 8:43:21 GMT
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 8, 2017 21:00:21 GMT
I doubt the Dalish will be used as a faction for the new PC to recruit in the next game since it has been heavily implied it will be in Tevinter and as our conversation with Dorian confirmed, there are no Dalish in Tevinter for obvious reasons. Unless there is a group up in Arlathan Forest who have lost contact with the others, but I very much doubt that. Of course there might be another faction of elves in Arlathan Forest or somewhere up north but I think it is more likely that if we do go there we may find empty ruins rather than inhabited ones.
I think if we are allowed to play different races again next game, then our character will be a city elf, either freeborn in the slums or more likely a slave. There is an outside chance that you could play an elf mage of the Laetans class, which would make a change since you would be both a citizen and a lesser noble. Any of these would make for a different perspective from what we have previously experienced.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 1:12:34 GMT
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